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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:30:28 PM EDT
[#1]
This raid failed because nobody switched shoulders.
 This is what REAL CQB looks like! ?? |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:40:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: ok...your point is? Is it better to show all of your head and all of your upper body or a smaller portion of it? Call me crazy but Im going with the latter IMO it’s more important to get effective fire on target, from whichever side you can make that happen even if it requires exposing more of your body. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:40:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iwouldntknow: These guys died because they didn't switch shoulders fast enough.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOvhO9Ki0UwContinuity of suppressing fire...works. ROEs permitting... Either way, there are a lot of people who think they know how a gunfight will go. Personal view...it tends to evolve into a whole lot of lead flying towards the threat and volume of relatively accurate fire is a good indicator of who will win. Delivering that volume of relatively accurate fire...is priority 1. Tools for the toolbox...be able to do whatever is needed...but the likely tool to solve it is volume+accuracy. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:44:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ak4784: He says at the end something like “put a target at 80 yards and try switching shoulders…blah blah blah.” I see his point there, however the switch would seem to be mostly applied to CQB stuff. Going room to room and door to door. Very close range stuff. Thats where people are mistaken. We easily make more use of switching shoulders in non-cqb environments and its the reason we drill it out to 100 yards at work (offhand/kneeling/seated/prone). I dont think people get the sense of empowerment and options available to a shooter when the real world when he's presented with a problem and he knows he has multiple ways to solve it. When you know you can use either side of an object and get good hits you have a world of options to choose from. Being able to shoot from both sides also not only maximizes cover/concealment, it can aid in shooter comfort and reduces shooter fatigue. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:46:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iwouldntknow: This raid failed because nobody switched shoulders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_IFgMjEt7YIts not funny...but seeing tracers coming through the walls that the "switch to the left shoulder" crowd wants to hide behind is pretty telling. I asked a guy from Paul's unit why they did full speed HR type assaults on non HR missions and he basically said that unless you have cover, you need speed...and drywall isn't cover. Bullets fly through walls....move fast and dominate the structure quickly or the enemy will simply mag dump at belt buckle level through the walls and kill you. Makes sense. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:47:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigBurkeyBoy: This is correct. Switching shoulders seemed really cool back when I thought speed reload times would make or break the outcome of a firefight. It seems way less cool after I did time as an infantryman. Just shoot from your regular shoulder. If you need to expose less of yourself... just lean. I don't think people understand just how dog-shit tired you will be actually doing this shit and the idea of switching a shoulder at every interior corner is just adding to the bullshit that you're going to stop doing once you're sucking ass. if, as a right hand shooter, you come to a left corner ( of any type), switch shoulders, lead with the left foot and move your body at a 45 degree towards the corner you'll 1)expose less of your body 2) be less fatigued 3) be in a better shooting position 4) be better balanced |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:47:21 PM EDT
[#7]
i just walk around the structure and always come in from my strong side
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OR, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:47:40 PM EDT
[#8]
I guarantee I’ve been in way more Orbeez gun fights agains sugared up 10yr olds than Paul Howe has been in real gun fights against Somalis on khat. From my extensive experience, when concealment is cover, you need to switch shoulders or your going to get lit up.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:48:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Thats where people are mistaken. We easily make more use of switching shoulders in non-cqb environments and its the reason we drill it out to 100 yards at work (offhand/kneeling/seated/prone). I dont think people get the sense of empowerment and options available to a shooter when the real world when he's presented with a problem and he knows he has multiple ways to solve it. When you know you can use either side of an object and get good hits you have a world of options to choose from. Being able to shoot from both sides also not only maximizes cover/concealment, it can aid in shooter comfort and reduces shooter fatigue. Yup this makes sense, have to put in the reps which most people are not doing. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:49:00 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FistPeso: IMO it’s more important to get effective fire on target, from whichever side you can make that happen even if it requires exposing more of your body. But if you can devote training time to getting effective hits AND not having un-needed exposure why wouldnt you? |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:51:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: But if you can devote training time to getting effective hits AND not having un-needed exposure why wouldnt you? Agree on that. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:53:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FistPeso: Yup this makes sense, have to put in the reps which most people are not doing. Its like anything shooting related...youre going to suck at it if you dont practice it. In reality it is more akin to what Ken Hackathorn would often say "if you arent comfortable doing it on on the square range; you wont even think about trying it in the real world" |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:54:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NCPatrolAR]
[#13]
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:55:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iwouldntknow: It's what they're doing to be ready for the realistic CQB that all patriots must be prepared for daily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTjVzK9RKxwQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By iwouldntknow: Originally Posted By rtlm: What is this training y’all speak of ? It's what they're doing to be ready for the realistic CQB that all patriots must be prepared for daily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTjVzK9RKxwJust got in from work. Gonna clear the house for practice. Knives only. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:02:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rtlm: Just got in from work. Gonna clear the house for practice. Knives only. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rtlm: Originally Posted By iwouldntknow: Originally Posted By rtlm: What is this training y’all speak of ? It's what they're doing to be ready for the realistic CQB that all patriots must be prepared for daily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTjVzK9RKxwJust got in from work. Gonna clear the house for practice. Knives only. *frags only. Sucks your particular brand of CQB wasn't applicable to the structures you were clearing. If you threw the frag left handed you wouldn't have been exposed to high speed metal through the wall. Just like bullets. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:03:14 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Let’s see how not switching shoulders can play out in real life https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/53285/IMG_5548_png-3207110.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/53285/IMG_9230_png-3207080.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/53285/IMG_9232_png-3207082.JPG Civilian ROE has no bearing on Riot season TTP's. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:05:10 PM EDT
[#17]
I agree with him in a cq environment. The times when transitioning to your weak or support side are mainly when stationary on barricades, such as working perimeter on a bp or hr.
I'd run patrol guys through support side shooting once or twice a year just to keep it fresh, but it was just as important to discuss the when it was appropriate. Just remember, there's A way to do things, not THE way to do it. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:06:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dangerranger61007]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: . There are non-US Special Ops units that use support side carbine point shooting around barricades. It is jaw dropping what accuracy can be achieved with minimal exposure of your body (you don't expose your head or body, just your arm). Personally I don't like being shot in the head or body, so I like the technique. But the technique is not for the ignorant, the close minded, or newbie that doesn't know how to run his carbine. Interesting. I imagine minute of man across the room accuracy is pretty readily achieved with that. I'm super awkward and slow shooting a rifle weak side. I practiced a bit and did not stick with it. Ammo budget is not an excuse, much of the proficiency could be obtained with dry fire. For me, the exposure difference is pretty small and most things I'd be shooting from behind are concealment rather than cover. I'd rather get off faster and more accurate shots. I've wrote off shooting rifles weak side as something not really worth my effort because no matter how much work I put in, I will never be as good as strong side. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:09:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iwouldntknow: *frags only. Sucks your particular brand of CQB wasn't applicable to the structures you were clearing. If you threw the frag left handed you wouldn't have been exposed to high speed metal through the wall. Just like bullets. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iwouldntknow: Originally Posted By rtlm: Originally Posted By iwouldntknow: Originally Posted By rtlm: What is this training y’all speak of ? It's what they're doing to be ready for the realistic CQB that all patriots must be prepared for daily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTjVzK9RKxwJust got in from work. Gonna clear the house for practice. Knives only. *frags only. Sucks your particular brand of CQB wasn't applicable to the structures you were clearing. If you threw the frag left handed you wouldn't have been exposed to high speed metal through the wall. Just like bullets. If I throw frags first, then I don’t get to cut anybody. I’ve got cut a motherfucker insurance but not frag a motherfucker insurance. Better call State Farm |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:13:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wvfarrier: Having used a rifle in combat....that's bad advice. Not switching shoulders puts WAY too much of your body into the open I've not been in combat, that that is how we trained. Switch when needed. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:14:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ObsoleteMan: ...extremely few commenters on this forum have even one one hundredth of Pauls experience. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:18:21 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: I asked a guy from Paul's unit why they did full speed HR type assaults on non HR missions and he basically said that unless you have cover, you need speed...and drywall isn't cover. Bullets fly through walls....move fast and dominate the structure quickly or the enemy will simply mag dump at belt buckle level through the walls and kill you. Dynamic/HR tactics for everything has gone away for the most part. From what I understand, each squadron at CAG does things different, that is why you hear conflicting tactics from guys that have left. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:21:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rtlm: If I throw frags first, then I don’t get to cut anybody. I’ve got cut a motherfucker insurance but not frag a motherfucker insurance. Better call State Farm Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rtlm: Originally Posted By iwouldntknow: Originally Posted By rtlm: Originally Posted By iwouldntknow: Originally Posted By rtlm: What is this training y’all speak of ? It's what they're doing to be ready for the realistic CQB that all patriots must be prepared for daily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTjVzK9RKxwJust got in from work. Gonna clear the house for practice. Knives only. *frags only. Sucks your particular brand of CQB wasn't applicable to the structures you were clearing. If you threw the frag left handed you wouldn't have been exposed to high speed metal through the wall. Just like bullets. If I throw frags first, then I don’t get to cut anybody. I’ve got cut a motherfucker insurance but not frag a motherfucker insurance. Better call State Farm That's why you throw your Latina in 6 seconds after the frag. What essTac pouch for Latina? |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:21:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dangerranger61007: Interesting. I imagine minute of man across the room accuracy is pretty readily achieved with that. I'm super awkward and slow shooting a rifle weak side. I practiced a bit and did not stick with it. Ammo budget is not an excuse, much of the proficiency could be obtained with dry fire. For me, the exposure difference is pretty small and most things I'd be shooting from behind are concealment rather than cover. I'd rather get off faster and more accurate shots. I've wrote off shooting rifles weak side as something not really worth my effort because no matter how much work I put in, I will never be as good as strong side. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dangerranger61007: Originally Posted By R_S: . There are non-US Special Ops units that use support side carbine point shooting around barricades. It is jaw dropping what accuracy can be achieved with minimal exposure of your body (you don't expose your head or body, just your arm). Personally I don't like being shot in the head or body, so I like the technique. But the technique is not for the ignorant, the close minded, or newbie that doesn't know how to run his carbine. Interesting. I imagine minute of man across the room accuracy is pretty readily achieved with that. I'm super awkward and slow shooting a rifle weak side. I practiced a bit and did not stick with it. Ammo budget is not an excuse, much of the proficiency could be obtained with dry fire. For me, the exposure difference is pretty small and most things I'd be shooting from behind are concealment rather than cover. I'd rather get off faster and more accurate shots. I've wrote off shooting rifles weak side as something not really worth my effort because no matter how much work I put in, I will never be as good as strong side. Think 1 inch accuracy across the room. Wolcoff did us all a favor documenting how SOG used to do things: Special Reconnaissance and Advanced Small Unit Patrolling: Tactics, Techniques and Procedures for Special Operations Forces SOG would initially train rifle with air rifles against reactive targets. This is the way. Old School, hard school, best school. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:22:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: Dynamic/HR tactics for everything has gone away for the most part. From what I understand, each squadron at CAG does things different, that is why you hear conflicting tactics from guys that have left. Well that and they change tactics like GD changes opinions. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:38:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: R0N]
[#26]
It takes a shit ton of reps to build the muscle memory to be sure you transition from strong side to weak side in actual combat. You see it time and time again, guys get trained in it, but they still stick with your strong side when being shot at.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:43:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: if, as a right hand shooter, you come to a left corner ( of any type), switch shoulders, lead with the left foot and move your body at a 45 degree towards the corner you'll 1)expose less of your body 2) be less fatigued 3) be in a better shooting position 4) be better balanced Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Originally Posted By BigBurkeyBoy: This is correct. Switching shoulders seemed really cool back when I thought speed reload times would make or break the outcome of a firefight. It seems way less cool after I did time as an infantryman. Just shoot from your regular shoulder. If you need to expose less of yourself... just lean. I don't think people understand just how dog-shit tired you will be actually doing this shit and the idea of switching a shoulder at every interior corner is just adding to the bullshit that you're going to stop doing once you're sucking ass. if, as a right hand shooter, you come to a left corner ( of any type), switch shoulders, lead with the left foot and move your body at a 45 degree towards the corner you'll 1)expose less of your body 2) be less fatigued 3) be in a better shooting position 4) be better balanced Or I can just come to the corner, lean, pie the corner until I have it clear and then take up my position so the rest of my team can move up/cross the hallway/whatever. Speed and momentum of action is extremely useful, especially in a setting where they likely know you're there and their guns go through drywall. If I'm behind some highspeed go-fast guy and I see him pulling some Rainbow Six Siege shoulder switch shit I'm getting my cell phone out and updating my will. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 5:45:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gehrig: Ambi lowers are overrated and overpriced Ambi ch is as well New whiz bang hog piss Has someone here advocated for those things? |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 6:09:15 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wvfarrier: Having used a rifle in combat....thats bad advice. Not switching shoulders puts WAY too mucb of your body into the open Pretty sure that he, as a Delta operator, also used a rifle in combat. That isn’t to discount your own experience. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 6:22:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Let Paul contemplate this on the arfcom tree of woe. Crucify him.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 6:27:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Switching shoulders is flat out wrong in most cases. Nobody shoots as well from the weak side...nobody. Your body position is almost always super wrong when transitioning and people constantly end up tangled in their sling/mag pouches/radio antenna. People regularly fail to manipulate the controls correctly, fail to apply marksmanship fundamentals.... The "cover" you gain is generally not cover...its sheetrock and doors...you aren't actually gaining any cover. You can't see as well because you are hiding behind something like sheetrock that isn't actually protecting you...but you are depriving yourself of the ability to see what is about to kill you. It's just stupid in 99% of cases. Yes, you should know how to do it and there are very specific circumstances where you need to do it...but its just wrong for most situations. Wear your plates...expose to the point where you can see and shoot...and handle threats by engaging them with the correct level of force, not hiding from them. YMMV.  |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 6:37:21 PM EDT
[#32]
I think the question should revolve not around "people suck at left handed shooting so don't change" to
Why do they suck at left handed shooting? In other words, why can't you do both? Yes, the AR is a very right hand 'centric' weapon, but you can easily learn to manipulate it and shoot well with it (yes even at distance) with the left hand. The problem is that when people get out and "practice" they typically only do what they like to do and/or are GOOD at it. Then it becomes ego driven/ego stroking aka "ballistic masturbation." For a lot of people getting outside of their comfort zone- aka doing what they feel good at- doesn't give them the good feels. But what are we doing, training to develop SKILL AT ARMS or just looking for feel good/stroke my ego stuff? Not saying this is or should be Day 1 stuff, but why would you NOT train left handed? Try it. About 10-15 years ago I wanted to increase my skills left handed. I bought left handed holsters and carried and shoot pistols (and rifles) left handed almost solely for over a year. The problem isn't shoulder transfers it's people don't train on shit they aren't good at. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 6:43:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: OKnativeson]
[#33]
I shoot weak shoulders all the time, training and even in hunting with rifles and shotguns. same as shooting left handed with handguns.
I do everything I can NOT to switch. but in a pinch. I do it well. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 6:49:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: trainfreaky]
[#34]
I have not trained with Paul Howe but I guess I am a little surprised that a CAG guy would advise against switching shoulders.
That's something I hear primarily from DEVGRU guys (KD4, BR)...one method that's taught as an alternative is to lean out from concealmenr without exposing your legs. I think the DEVGRU guys view switch shoulder as low percentage of success. Switch shoulder was one of the first things I learned in pistol carbine training with LAV. Used it a lot with Kyle Lamb, especially with barricade work and one armed shooting. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 6:58:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Think 1 inch accuracy across the room. Wolcoff did us all a favor documenting how SOG used to do things: Special Reconnaissance and Advanced Small Unit Patrolling: Tactics, Techniques and Procedures for Special Operations Forces SOG would initially train rifle with air rifles against reactive targets. This is the way. Old School, hard school, best school. This fits exactly with what old skewl Vietnam era SF/SOG vets that trained us back in the day told us. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 8:13:17 PM EDT
[#36]
I have to shoot rifles weak side anyway because of a lazy right eye.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:04:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lowdown3: I think the question should revolve not around "people suck at left handed shooting so don't change" to Why do they suck at left handed shooting? In other words, why can't you do both? Yes, the AR is a very right hand 'centric' weapon, but you can easily learn to manipulate it and shoot well with it (yes even at distance) with the left hand. The problem is that when people get out and "practice" they typically only do what they like to do and/or are GOOD at it. Then it becomes ego driven/ego stroking aka "ballistic masturbation." For a lot of people getting outside of their comfort zone- aka doing what they feel good at- doesn't give them the good feels. But what are we doing, training to develop SKILL AT ARMS or just looking for feel good/stroke my ego stuff? Not saying this is or should be Day 1 stuff, but why would you NOT train left handed? Try it. About 10-15 years ago I wanted to increase my skills left handed. I bought left handed holsters and carried and shoot pistols (and rifles) left handed almost solely for over a year. The problem isn't shoulder transfers it's people don't train on shit they aren't good at. Wow - that’s a shit ton of commitment on your part! |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:21:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Thats where people are mistaken. We easily make more use of switching shoulders in non-cqb environments and its the reason we drill it out to 100 yards at work (offhand/kneeling/seated/prone). I dont think people get the sense of empowerment and options available to a shooter when the real world when he's presented with a problem and he knows he has multiple ways to solve it. When you know you can use either side of an object and get good hits you have a world of options to choose from. Being able to shoot from both sides also not only maximizes cover/concealment, it can aid in shooter comfort and reduces shooter fatigue. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Originally Posted By ak4784: He says at the end something like “put a target at 80 yards and try switching shoulders…blah blah blah.” I see his point there, however the switch would seem to be mostly applied to CQB stuff. Going room to room and door to door. Very close range stuff. Thats where people are mistaken. We easily make more use of switching shoulders in non-cqb environments and its the reason we drill it out to 100 yards at work (offhand/kneeling/seated/prone). I dont think people get the sense of empowerment and options available to a shooter when the real world when he's presented with a problem and he knows he has multiple ways to solve it. When you know you can use either side of an object and get good hits you have a world of options to choose from. Being able to shoot from both sides also not only maximizes cover/concealment, it can aid in shooter comfort and reduces shooter fatigue. Exactly. Less effort moving my rifle as opposed to leaning my upper body. Also by swapping you change up muscle groups and I find that helps increase the amount of time I can go between rest periods. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:48:29 PM EDT
[#39]
Most people can't identify and use cover properly to start with. And most can't handle their weapon or shoot worth a fuck with their dominant hand. But now we are going to get everyone to use cover better and shoot with their weak hand. Sure.
I'm not saying it isn't a good idea for some guys, some of the time; but it's not a good thing to preach to the masses. I think that was Paul's main point. And that would be correct. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:56:31 PM EDT
[#40]
I had shoulder-switching and leaning both taught to me in the Infantry. I've used both in combat.
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Posted: 5/7/2024 12:14:22 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11boomboom: I had shoulder-switching and leaning both taught to me in the Infantry. I've used both in combat. When you really need cover, you tend to prioritize that. There tends to be a serious tradeoff with your ability to accurately return fire. At some point it becomes silly. 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 12:19:52 AM EDT
[#42]
I was on a SRT Team and Paul Howe taught the Advanced SWAT school I was in…ill listen to anything that dude says.
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Posted: 5/7/2024 12:21:47 AM EDT
[#43]
Any instructor who says his way is the best/only way sounds like an instructor I’ll skip.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 12:25:06 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mblades: I guarantee I’ve been in way more Orbeez gun fights agains sugared up 10yr olds than Paul Howe has been in real gun fights against Somalis on khat. From my extensive experience, when concealment is cover, you need to switch shoulders or your going to get lit up. Calm down warrior, same some pussy for Paul |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 12:30:36 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Thats where people are mistaken. We easily make more use of switching shoulders in non-cqb environments and its the reason we drill it out to 100 yards at work (offhand/kneeling/seated/prone). I dont think people get the sense of empowerment and options available to a shooter when the real world when he's presented with a problem and he knows he has multiple ways to solve it. When you know you can use either side of an object and get good hits you have a world of options to choose from. Being able to shoot from both sides also not only maximizes cover/concealment, it can aid in shooter comfort and reduces shooter fatigue. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: Originally Posted By ak4784: He says at the end something like “put a target at 80 yards and try switching shoulders…blah blah blah.” I see his point there, however the switch would seem to be mostly applied to CQB stuff. Going room to room and door to door. Very close range stuff. Thats where people are mistaken. We easily make more use of switching shoulders in non-cqb environments and its the reason we drill it out to 100 yards at work (offhand/kneeling/seated/prone). I dont think people get the sense of empowerment and options available to a shooter when the real world when he's presented with a problem and he knows he has multiple ways to solve it. When you know you can use either side of an object and get good hits you have a world of options to choose from. Being able to shoot from both sides also not only maximizes cover/concealment, it can aid in shooter comfort and reduces shooter fatigue. I would be more likely to switch shoulders at longer distances. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 12:35:06 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JCIN: As an observer of this debate the thing that sticks out to me is realistically how much time does the person have to train and how much of it should be spent on stuff that is less likely to occur instead of fundamentals and being able to place rounds accurately under pressure. I live on and manage a range facility that we donate time on for several local PD's to train and qual. My observations of the average cop working with a rifle is that time working on switching shoulders is far down the list of things to spend time and resources on. No doubt that they should know how to do it on a basic level but I've yet to see any agency have the time to make someone good at it. The same thing applies to 95% of non LEO dudes I see working with a rifle. No doubt this varies by agency and location. I'm sure there are places out there with money and time to work on everything I just have not seen it personally. As far as SOF dudes its funny because guys who come from the same place can say directly opposing things on this topic. The ones who make the most sense to me as an outsider are guys like Pranka but Bob Keller is a big proponent of switching shoulders so I figure it comes down to shooters choice at that level. PDs that borrow recreational ranges aren’t really the ones you’d probably see do much, or any training. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:29:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JCIN]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FightingHellfish: PDs that borrow recreational ranges aren’t really the ones you’d probably see do much, or any training. I see all kinds. From the local dudes who will show up if I call 911 that we let use our place so they don't have to drive an hour to use a shitty facility to OCPD Tac Team and Instructor dudes who we give free slots to when JJ, Jedlinski, McPhee, Caldwell and others are here for private classes that we do. The one thing I hear from all instructors no matter how big or small the agency is they don't have enough time and money to train their people to anything but the basic standards. I've had this conversation with LE instructors from all over the country over the years. Same general story. I'm sure there are some places that are different. NC AR's place sounds like one and thats cool. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:55:44 AM EDT
[#48]
Generally speaking, people who argue over gunfighting on the internet, don't.
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Posted: 5/7/2024 2:20:04 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ObsoleteMan: ...extremely few commenters on this forum have even one one hundredth of Pauls experience. This x1000 Most of the baddest dudes on Arfcom couldn’t carry Paul’s jockstrap. I’ve carried a rifle for nearly 30 years for work (big city LE) and been fortunate to train with some of the very best instructors over that time. Never trained with Paul and you can disagree with him if you want but understand that dude has millions upon millions of reps you don’t. Add in his experience actually fighting with a gun and I’d recommend just sitting quietly and listening. The Unit guys I have trained with were skilled to a level far beyond most and constantly trying to improve. Unlimited budget, ammo and training time coupled with relentless pursuit of perfection is how tier 1 guys live. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 6:31:04 AM EDT
[#50]
Ive read all of Paul Howe's books and I think his content is outstanding.
Clearly, switching shoulders would expose less of a target. Maybe one square foot vs 2-3. But you shoot slower, less accurately. It's a tradeoff. Id say if you shoot, say, a timed iteration for three A zone hits at 50 meters, if your weak side isnt 70% (maybe 50%, maybe 90%) as good as your strong side, then it is more of a disadvantage. You are worse off. With the mostly LEOs that he is teaching, that's a good rule of thumb. I think he's right. The second piece of this pie is that if you arent that good weak shoulder, and you have X time and Y training ammunition, is it better to train weak shoulder or just strong side and simplify? I would say he generally advocates simple training techniques that minimize decision making under stress, and are easier to repetitively train. Given the training audience, that's the right call IMHO. A HSLD shooter with an unlimited budget would make different decisions. METT-T. Know your audience and their resources. Ultimately this is risk mitigation and spending a limited training budget on an inefficient skill that then adds more decision loop is, for people with limited resources, not good. Better on teaching rapid target acquisition and leaning over and simplifying. I could see some people on this board and the above doesnt apply to them. For me and most, it does. |
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