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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:40:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: doc540]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wineraner: If you're implying we don't need the sights to fight with a pistol, we could ask Jerry Dove how well that worked when he lost his glasses. Of course, we'll need a Ouija Board to do so. I'll just tell you - the vast majority of civilian gunfights are point-shoot-dance-juke-jive without "seeing" sights/dots/reticles or anything but their own muzzle flashes. Even then they can't remember how many times they shot, how loud it was, or what they saw distinctly apart from the baseball-size hole in their attacker's barrel. Dot/iron practice just better prepares you for the inevitable pray and spray mag dump no matter how many plastic barrel matches you've excelled at. It is what it is, and it ain't much. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:40:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ExFed1811: Sounds like you had it pretty rough. How many of your guys died as a result of weapon or sight failure? The failures I’m discussing? Zero. Other failures? One due to a weapons failure in 2010. You? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:41:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: I'll just tell you - the vast majority of civilian gunfights are point-shoot-dance-juke-jive without "seeing" sights/dots/reticles or anything but their own muzzle flashes. Even then the can't remember how many times they shot, how loud it was, or what they saw distinctly apart from the baseball-size hole in their attacker's barrel. Dot/iron practice just better prepares you for the inevitable pray and spray mag dump no matter how many plastic barrel matches you've excelled at. It is what it is, and it ain't much. And people miss… a lot. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:41:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: People who rarely shoot and or don’t train to standards will tell you that irons are superior for a number of nonsensical reasons ranging from “you won’t see your sights in a gunfight” to “you don’t need one at gunfight distances” and everything in between. These reasons are borne of ignorance and lack of training time. A high quality optic is superior in every meaningful way to irons if you actually train with it. If you treat your gun as a talisman and want something to stick in a drawer/holster/glovebox for a year and never train with, stick with irons. /thread |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:43:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: And people miss… a lot. thread understatement |
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THA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:43:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Hard to say. I don't think it's ever been discussed. You know, like fast food.
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:45:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ExFed1811: A career in a federal agency with a whole lot of shooting events (a couple of which I participated in) taught me that most gun failures were a result of operator failures. We only had one gun failure that resulted in a LE fatality. A bad guy shot the trigger off a Glock, (shooting the agent's finger off at the same time) then shot our agent a few more times. The most common failure? Forgetting to chamber a round. Second most. Shooting by an object that kept the slide from operating properly through contact and friction. Times sights failed, iron or electronic? Zero Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ExFed1811: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Over the past five years I’ve seen more irons fail than quality optics. Over the past two years this has been true for me personally. If you’re concerned about failures, wouldn’t it make more sense to have an optic and BUIS? A career in a federal agency with a whole lot of shooting events (a couple of which I participated in) taught me that most gun failures were a result of operator failures. We only had one gun failure that resulted in a LE fatality. A bad guy shot the trigger off a Glock, (shooting the agent's finger off at the same time) then shot our agent a few more times. The most common failure? Forgetting to chamber a round. Second most. Shooting by an object that kept the slide from operating properly through contact and friction. Times sights failed, iron or electronic? Zero The most common failure I see in shootings LE or otherwise is a failure of marksmanship |
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USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:48:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Nick_Adams]
[#8]
Originally Posted By Dance: RDS are gaining popularity on Carry Pistols. A lot of people may not get one and just use iron sights due to cost or the need to practice with it. Some people dispute that a RDS is better than iron sights. Have you ignored the science? Is it wrong and iron sights are better than a RDS for carry? RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:50:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. Weird that this isn’t the case in the real world when performance is being tracked. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:52:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gunnie357]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: Originally Posted By Dance: RDS are gaining popularity on Carry Pistols. A lot of people may not get one and just use iron sights due to cost or the need to practice with it. Some people dispute that a RDS is better than iron sights. Have you ignored the science? Is it wrong and iron sights are better than a RDS for carry? RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. I’ve yet to see a quality study in which large quantities of data was placed that indicates we can definitely say at what distance defensive pistol engagements occur. ETA: I would however love to see one |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:52:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Weird that this isn’t the case in the real world when performance is being tracked. 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:53:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats People are still parroting this, huh? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:54:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Weird that this isn’t the case in the real world when performance is being tracked. 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats You can't pick up a sight picture in a second? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:54:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ExFed1811: Sounds like you had it pretty rough. How many of your guys died as a result of weapon or sight failure? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ExFed1811: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: If I only shot as much as LE, I probably wouldn’t have seen one either. Sounds like you had it pretty rough. How many of your guys died as a result of weapon or sight failure? Do you genuinely not understand what 45-70 is pointing out here? If anything, what he says about failures should have a ton of weight given: 1) No one's wrestling with the shooter in IPSC, banging the gun in the dirt and mud and 2) IPSC guys are taking a lot better care of their shit than most cops, yet are still seeing these failures through use. Are we going to next start doing the same to Battlefield Vegas's findings because no one's shooting back on their ranges either? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:55:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:55:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gunnie357]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Weird that this isn’t the case in the real world when performance is being tracked. 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats That’s the often cited numbers from a data point that doesn’t even give them. It’s typically credit to the FBI and stated as being sourced from the FBI LODD information. It doesn’t track the entire gunfight neither does it track all gunfights. ETA: I say the above to point out this training for an average opens you to outliers that are far in access of the average. One because there ISN’T solid data on the average and two because no matter the data tracked there must be numbers on either end. Some shootings happen at three feet some happen at three yard some happen at 25yds you shouldn’t train for only the average. Simply strive to do better than you did the time you trained before. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:56:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nick_Adams: Originally Posted By Dance: RDS are gaining popularity on Carry Pistols. A lot of people may not get one and just use iron sights due to cost or the need to practice with it. Some people dispute that a RDS is better than iron sights. Have you ignored the science? Is it wrong and iron sights are better than a RDS for carry? RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. This is poor trolling/engagement farming. Maybe try it on X instead? Wakeboarder probably feels that this is low-effort. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:57:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: doc540]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: People are still parroting this, huh? And still shooting about as well as squawking parrots. Civilians don't stand and deliver like Matt Dillon. Mags aren't all that's getting dumped. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:57:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JBecker_72: Why so slow? distracted by their pants filling |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:58:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Same system on all pistols.
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:59:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: You can't pick up a sight picture in a second? A lot of people can’t. Why? Because they’ve decided that it was too difficult or that it was a level of skill that was beyond them. Then, they’ve convinced themselves that nobody can and that all you’ll ever need is point shooting. After all, gangbangers never train and they occasionally get hits. Hell, they even kill people sometimes. So they’ve entered into a self defeating feedback loop that ensures their skill level never progresses. People need to break out of that shit. There is zero reason why a normal adult can’t do that with a modest investment in time. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:59:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Weird that this isn’t the case in the real world when performance is being tracked. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By Nick_Adams: RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. Weird that this isn’t the case in the real world when performance is being tracked. Citation to “real world” data to back that up? Didn’t think so. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:59:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: distracted by their pants filling |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:00:05 PM EDT
[#24]
I concur with 45/70 plus with the RDS you have a SIGHT PICTURE instead of looking over your irons.
Less chances of a miss and bring the gun up to your sight line instead of burying your head down. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:00:13 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbleArcher: Irons will be left in the past. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:00:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By Nick_Adams: RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. Originally Posted By doc540: 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats JFC. This place... |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:00:59 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: A lot of people can’t. Why? Because they’ve decided that it was too difficult or that it was a level of skill that was beyond them. Then, they’ve convinced themselves that nobody can and that all you’ll ever need is point shooting. After all, gangbangers never train and they occasionally get hits. Hell, they even kill people sometimes. So they’ve entered into a self defeating feedback loop that ensures their skill level never progresses. People need to break out of that shit. There is zero reason why a normal adult can’t do that with a modest investment in time. once a week at a minimum to maintain some measure of the-most-stress-in-your-life competence |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:01:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Nothing wrong with irons, just like there's nothing wrong with a pump shotgun.
There's better, and better is good. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:02:35 PM EDT
[#29]
If the gun can except a RDS I generally mount one... to include my carry guns...
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WY, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:03:36 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By P1pe: I concur with 45/70 plus with the RDS you have a SIGHT PICTURE instead of looking over your irons. Less chances of a miss and bring the gun up to your sight line instead of burying your head down.  Dots are great and all, but irons don't do what you ascribe to them. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:04:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JBecker_72: Well for those of us that shoot regularly, that's a sub 2 second par time from concealment, all A zone. Bravo shooting regularly and competently is a noble endeavor and something to be admired arguing about the superiority of one firearm accessory over another is....uh....not evidence of knowing jackshlt. |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:05:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Weird that this isn’t the case in the real world when performance is being tracked. 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats Why even use sights for that? A zone? 4" circle? Three yards? Wtf? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:07:09 PM EDT
[#33]
We are three pages in and we still haven’t done the needful? Sigh. Ok:
Move over irons. The future is now old man! Red dot master race. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:07:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: JFC. This place... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: Originally Posted By Nick_Adams: RDSs on carry pistols are another fad that Boomers who gained their skill on iron-sight shooting don’t want, or need. Just more ‘tech’ for the YouTube commandos to fuss over, when in fact RDSs add zippo over irons in terms of first-round hit probability at the distances within which typical defensive engagements occur - i.e., 25-feet and in. On the other hand, if your RDS/pistol set-up is just a range toy for plinking at soda cans on a berm 75-yds away on a lazy Sunday afternoon, …. well, that’s different. Have at it. Originally Posted By doc540: 3 shots, three yards, three seconds less time than it takes to track stats JFC. This place...  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:09:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lawless_Flogic: Why even use sights for that? A zone? 4" circle? Three yards? Wtf? I rest my case. It's not the sighting system. It's the mental preparation to win a life/death contest, and the dedication to practicing enough to bring a fighting tool to bear quickly and effectively. Everything else is zippity do dah |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:09:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Bravo shooting regularly and competently is a noble endeavor and something to be admired arguing about the superiority of one firearm accessory over another is....uh....not evidence of knowing jackshlt. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By JBecker_72: Well for those of us that shoot regularly, that's a sub 2 second par time from concealment, all A zone. Bravo shooting regularly and competently is a noble endeavor and something to be admired arguing about the superiority of one firearm accessory over another is....uh....not evidence of knowing jackshlt. Do you believe that a RDS does not give you an advantage over irons on a carbine? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:10:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: There’s the first one. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By Obo2: My general opinion for carry for most people is to get something smallish, lightish and a comfortable holster so you don't get sick of it a couple months in and stop carrying. I'd think the majority of self defense shootings are at such close range that there aint a whole lot of aiming involved anyway. There’s the first one. I definitely understand the advantage of an rds. Admittedly never been involved in an sd shooting. The biggest hurdle for most to survive a situation where they would need to use a firearm to protect a human life is actually having the gun. Anything else is secondary. If you regularly carry with an rds great. Unlikely to make much difference if you have an rds or irons on a pistol in an sd scenario. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:11:57 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Bravo shooting regularly and competently is a noble endeavor and something to be admired arguing about the superiority of one firearm accessory over another is....uh....not evidence of knowing jackshlt. Do you feel iron sights are a superior option to an Aimpoint on a rifle that will be used in a gunfight? If not, why the differing opinion about handguns? |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:12:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: I rest my case. It's not the sighting system. It's the mental preparation to win a life/death contest, and the dedication to practicing enough to bring a fighting tool to bear quickly and effectively. Everything else is zippity do dah Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By Lawless_Flogic: Why even use sights for that? A zone? 4" circle? Three yards? Wtf? I rest my case. It's not the sighting system. It's the mental preparation to win a life/death contest, and the dedication to practicing enough to bring a fighting tool to bear quickly and effectively. Everything else is zippity do dah My point was that it is a useless metric. Answer the question about what you're supposed to hit and you've almost got something worthwhile. Hint: the smaller the target zone gets, the better RDS will perform, relatively. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:12:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: doc540]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: Do you believe that a RDS does not give you an advantage over irons on a carbine? Depends on the distance/range, a shooter's vision, and the amount of practice. I have dots on all my rifles except the M1 Carbine, the .308 bolt, and the 20ga pump. It's not an "either/or" issue, for pete's sake. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:14:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Depends on the distance/range, a shooter's vision, and the amount of practice. I have dots on all my rifles except the M1 Carbine, the .308 bolt, and the 20ga pump. It's not an "either/or" issue, for pete's sake. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By S-1: Do you believe that a RDS does not give you an advantage over irons on a carbine? Depends on the distance/range, a shooter's vision, and the amount of practice. I have dots on all my rifles except the M1 Carbine, the .308 bolt, and the 20ga pump. It's not an "either/or" issue, for pete's sake. Have you trained at night, shooting and moving while using iron sights and a RDS? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:15:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Not much to disagree with there, Flawless.
Point and shoot is all we’re trying to get at after all. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:17:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty: We are three pages in and we still haven’t done the needful? Sigh. Ok: Move over irons. The future is now old man! Red dot master race. Needs more @ s, like our Man in Montucky, summoning the Arf No-Girls Club... But seriously though, I don't get this shit. Open eyes, extend arms, see red dot on bad guy, mash trigger. The end. .Mil figured this shit out eons ago. Why are people still parroting bullshit? Jim Dove was an award-winning FBI pistol guy. His glasses fell off, and he hit Matix once, maybe with a mag or so? (Then Matix disabled his weapon with a .223 bullet) Muh pointshootin'... Then Dove died, of course. I doubt Matix advances much if Dove could actually fucking see, and could put most of that 9mm mag into Matix's ass, deficiencies of the 115 silvertip bullet or not. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:17:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: Have you trained at night, shooting and moving while using iron sights and a RDS? not playing this game One size does not fit all. One caliber is not superior to all other calibers. One sighting system is not superior for all shooters. One system is not superior to all other systems. Each individual shooter needs to make an informed decision about what works best for them physically and mentally. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:19:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: The failures I’m discussing? Zero. Other failures? One due to a weapons failure in 2010. You? Uh, I just told you. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:20:47 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: not playing this game One size does not fit all. One caliber is not superior to all other calibers. One sighting system is not superior for all shooters. One system is not superior to all other systems. Each individual shooter needs to make an informed decision about what works best for them physically and mentally. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By S-1: Have you trained at night, shooting and moving while using iron sights and a RDS? not playing this game One size does not fit all. One caliber is not superior to all other calibers. One sighting system is not superior for all shooters. One system is not superior to all other systems. Each individual shooter needs to make an informed decision about what works best for them physically and mentally. Not playing a game. It is just a question. Have you or haven't you? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:20:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Positronic: Irons are the FUTURE. The way the world is going, beating someone to death with a stick over a 17 year old can of corn might be the future but I’m going to use technology as long as I can. |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:22:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By P1pe: Not much to disagree with there, Flawless. Point and shoot is all we’re trying to get at after all. Don't you put that on me, Ricky-Bobby. What you said about lack of sight picture and burying your head with irons is BS. I don't even know where one would come up with that. Point and shoot has its place (3yd), but there's a time and a place for making good hits at reasonable distance, and that's where RDS wins. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:23:07 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: My general opinion for carry for most people is to get something smallish, lightish and a comfortable holster so you don't get sick of it a couple months in and stop carrying. I'd think the majority of self defense shootings are at such close range that there aint a whole lot of aiming involved anyway. Ah, the good ol LGS Fudd Lore has made an appearance. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 9:24:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: doc540]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: Not playing a game. It is just a question. Have you or haven't you? barefooted while chewing gum? with the EQ set to high mid's on my hearing aids? drawing from my pancake or my jackass rig? wearing my progressive or lined trifocals? with powder puff reloads or +P+ Rangers? It's a silly game "Trust the SCIENCE  "
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