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www.tndeer.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=002612
About halfway down, there is a description of the events that matches what was in the paper. ![]() |
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Regardless of how hot it gets, it's pretty much inaccessable due to safety guards and engine design. Even then, it's still not hot enough. Think about this for a sec. He has to heat the part of the barrel with the powder charge, and he also has to have it pointed at his head. Barrel has to be In hard contact with the hottest part of the exhaust, (The part up by the manifold) for an extended period. (the entire barrel would act as a heat sink) Remember, there is temp drop from one item to another with a contact transfer, to heat the barrel to over 600 degrees the exhaust has to be a LOT hotter. Now, my Yamaha is fairly typical in design, Not a whole lot of difference between ATV's. You can't reach the manifold/exhaust juncture without removing the safety guard. In fact, the ONLY part of the exposed exhaust you can reach without tools is the end of the tailpipe, and that's only very warm to the touch. BIG temperature drop over the distance. Figuring the ambient temp in PA at the time of this, they probably warm their hands on the tailpipe. ![]() |
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I don't think that which you attribute to Occam is actually Occam's razor. As I recall, Occam's Razor had more to do with a preference for simplicity and parsimony in explanations and not using probability to deduce truth per se. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor |
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I don't disagree. I just posted that little bit b/c I was surprised that manifold temps reached 500 celsius+ (~932 Farenheit). I wouldn't have expected that. |
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Thank God some of you aren't Homicide detectives.
Anyone who has both ridden ATV's extensively and hunted with black powder rifles can say with almost 100% certainty that the story is fictional. The hunter would have had his rifle strapped to the ATV's rack, handlebars, or in a scabbard. If the engine heat was enough to ignite black powder in those locations, the rider would have already received third degree burns to his legs, crotch, and ass. If you want to believe the guy strapped his rifle directly to the exhaust by some miraculous configuration then placed his head in front of the muzzle at the exact moment of ignition, go right ahead. Modern muzzle-loading rifles (hardly anyone hunts with traditional style rifles anymore) are much safer than traditionals and as mentioned before, most all hunters now use Pyrodex and other powders which are much more stable than black powder. If it was unintentional, it involved a rifle with the ignition cap still on the nipple, a rifle with the safety off, and a negligent trigger pull. I would have to say the family is covering up a suicide. The story given is just way too implausible. |
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Just to play around I took the (unloaded)TC 50 cal. out into the storage shed.
If I prop it up on the running boards and hold it with my leg the stock is too long and reaches past the engine. If I lay it on the running boards, same problem. The stock holds it away, and the barrel is too long to fit inside the fender. The tailpipe does not stick out far enough to lean the rifle against it, and it would be too far up the barrel anyway. The fenders are too high up over the exhaust to lay the gun across them that way, besides, the vibration with the thing running would knock it off. The only way I can figure out to do it is to WIRE the gun underneath the ATV with the barrel pointing backwards and almost horizontal to the ground, after removing the skid plate to make room. ![]() |
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Newsflash, John: You have half the story - maybe even less - anbd you're trying to make your own understanding fit the few facts you have. I'll remember that the next time you spout off about how nobody was there, so nobody really understands why the LEO tazed grandma. You're doing the exact same thing - soo you just pretty well killed your chances of being taken seriously the next time you drag out your blue paint to start making the thick blue line in the leo-bashing threads. Meantime, did any of you guys read the link I posted, or has anyone bothered to try to find more news on the subject, or are all of you content to sit here and try to shove your own theories down each other's throats? ![]() |
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Interesting how the two posters have different stories. Also note that earlier the claim was that "the father saw it happen". Now we have the father in a completely different area.
With no eyewitness, the "he leaned down to check something on the ATV" and "he leaned the rifle against the muffler and it discharged" stories become rather irrational speculation. The second story doesn't even mention an ATV... |
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I highly doubt it was suicide.
I just dont see a person going hunting and driving off on a 4 wheeler to commit suicide with a muzzleloader. Also can you unload a muzzle loader easily after your done hunting? Or do you have to shoot it to get the load out? |
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I remember the paper stating that it was a traditions buckhunter inline .54 caliber muzzleloader. I have no idea why they thought that was relvant, other than out of a percieved need to spice the story up with some technical details. As for the disparate stories, I think that if you combined the latter two stories, you'd be close to the actual events. As for exactly how the charge was set off, all anyone can do HERE is offer wild-eyed internet speculation. I agree that it didn't likely 'cook off' from engine heat. Maybe an errant spark from the exhaust landed in the perfect place? Maybe a spark ignited a bit of lint, cloth, or a dry blade of grass? At any rate, there is nothing anywhere in the story (outside of the reader's own cynicism) to suggest murder/suicide. |
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You can use a ball puller to unload a muzzle loader it is a pain in the ass. Far easier to shoot out the load. There are some devices that use CO2 cartridges/gas that can be used on percussion rifles to expel a load, they are not very common. |
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Apparently, some of us have been watching CSI and taking it a little too seriously.
![]() I'll wait for the real CSI's to do the work. In the mean time...tag for updates. |
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Yea… Speculating this was a suicide as if you know that to be a fact is ridiculous. |
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I doubt the power cooked off, it would take alot of heat transfer thru the barrel to ignite the BP. What I would believe is the percussion cap cooking off, they are pretty sensitive and heat transfer would be quick thru the thin metal.
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You can also remove the breechplug from most in-lines and just let the powder spill out the back, then push the bullet on through. Yes, I consider this to be a safe method. Some may not. YMMV. |
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The ignition temperature (without a flame or spark) of black powder is about 625 degrees Fahrenheit. It is impossible that the barrel of that muzzle loader got heated to 625 degrees Fahrenheit by sitting over an an air-cooled engine. I would imagine that the temperature of a air-cooled engine exterior would never exceed 325 F degrees. Most air-cooled cylinder heads are running 200-300 degrees F. Water cooled engine are cooler.
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*always keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction, even if it's unloaded
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If you have to actually shoot the gun off to unload it then there could be many reasons the gun was still loaded. Like he did not wish to scare deer away from a good hunting spot for example. Or did not wish to alert other hunters where he was. |
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How do you know it was just a few minutes? What if he had been riding around for a couple of hours? You don't think the gunpowder would have been really hot from that? Occham's Razor only works if you know all of the facts, instead of inserting your own into it with little to no data. |
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For what it is worth, it is a VERY common practice to leave muzzleloaders 'loaded' for extended periods of time. I have on numerous occassions left an otherwise clean muzzleloader loaded for a month or more at a time. It's simply the way things are done, because for all legal and practical purposes, if the cap is removed, it is 'unloaded', even if it still has powder and bullet in place. The only problem with this is the corrosive nature of blackpowder, which demands frequent cleaning. |
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I knew the heat theory was BS as soon as I set eyes on it. This guy loaded his gun (an inline rifle if other thread participants are correct) before arriving at the hunting site. Anybody who has taken an elementary school hunter safety course knows better. At some point he bumped the trigger or caught it on something, causing the gun to discharge. I feel sorry for him and his family, but he was the victim of his own safety practices.
IMHO the only possible way engine heat could ever play a role in a negligent discharge would be if the gun was (A) a flintlock, (B) with a leaky, overcharged flash pan, and (C) he leaned the loaded gun against the ATV at an angle so (D) powder leaked out directly onto (E) a red-hot exaust pipe. But this scenario implies a probability of Rube Goldberg proportion. And we have to go back to the fact the gun in question probably isn't a flintlock and one shouldn't load a gun before arriving at the hunting site, so even this freakish theory is moot. |
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Accident = Deep pocket theory Payout! Don't know, Wasn't there! Tragic either way! |
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The point of the principle is simple probablity. It's true that "The most probable explanation is not always the correct one.", but the principle states that it probably is. I agree with you, though, that by whatever means you come to the conclusion that it probably was suicide, you sure as hell wouldn't go telling that to the family unless you were sure. Note to self (as I have noted to myself every single time I am in the presence of any firearm) ..... IT'S LOADED. Don't point it at anything that you're not prepared to destroy. |
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+1 Very good assesment of the situation. |
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That's the big problem with muzzleloaders... You have to. I think I remember seeing somewhere that muzzleloaders are the firearms most prone to accidents. |
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The link is worthless. I'm playing with possibilities because I'm bored. A popular Arfcom tradition. If you don't like that you are certainly free to go somewhere else. I certainly remember YOUR flights of fancy in the past on a variety of subjects. I firmly believe the guy died in a more traditional hunting accident because he was careless or drunk. (Typical hunter) but honestly, when you get right down to it, I don't really care. I just hope some gun maker does not have to shell out $$ because of ignorance beyond his control. Maybe you should switch to caffiene free instead? |
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PA's early muzzleloader season ended almost a month ago. My still-loaded flintlock is in the safe as I type. I'l shoot it again in a few weeks to get ready for the after Christmas late-muzzleloader season. I've been doing this for years. ![]() |
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling BS or anything. I'm having a hard time figuring out how the muzzle loader was on the 4 wheeler and got close enough to the engine to ignite. If it was in a saddle holster the powder would have been well about the heat. If it was across the front rack it would be to far away to get enough heat. If it was but stock down the muzzle would be pointed up and to far above his head. Details when you get them would help. Modern day muzzle loaders don't AD that easy. |
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How about the PRIMER? |
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![]() Maybe in TX ![]() CR |
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Good point. I cooked off a centerfire rifle cartirdge in an AK in a pre-heated 300 degree oven in exactly 45 minutes. |
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I do not have specific information to support the following, but under certain conditions, I feel that the following scenario may be possible;
IF the vehicle in question was an older, well used model, the spark arrester could have been non-functional. That could leave open the possibility that IF the vehicle was momentarily left running with the rifle placed directly in-line with the exhaust pipe and reasonably close to it, a spark could conceivably be expelled and enter the nipple sufficiently to ignite the charge. A long shot, but feasable. |
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In most states, a ML is not considered loaded unless the piece is capped, primed. I know plenty of guys here that pack a charged ML on 4 wheelers or MTBs all the time and so far, no one has had an accident.
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The finger in the trigger guard??? |
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