News Broadcast: New prototype military vehicle "Growler" putting soldiers at risk

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - News Broadcast: New prototype military vehicle "Growler" putting soldiers at risk

Posted: 8/2/2007 7:36:57 AM EDT

I thought someone here might find this interesting, video feed on right of linked page

http://www.wxyz.com/content/news/investigators/story.aspx?content_id=c7b452c9-3bf0-41f0-af32-6c6bc08e8a4b

Originally Posted By Detroit Channel 7 News:
WILSON INVESTIGATION: Soldiers at Risk

PART TWO: Wilson Demands Answers
Chief Investigator Steve Wilson is getting the attention of some members of Congress after exposing a Marine combat vehicle that could put American lives at risk.
WATCH INVESTIGATION IN VIDEO PLAYER RIGHT

Anchor Lead: It all began with an Action News investigation earlier this year…and tonight lawmakers in Washington are convinced Congress should now put it’s own investigators on the case. We’re talking about a new combat vehicle for the Marine Corps…and as our chief investigative reporter Steve Wilson first uncovered, despite it’s bloated price tag, it’s a second-rate design that leaves our troops at risk, right Steve?
Wilson Live Open: And that’s according to the Marines’ own evaluation of this thing called the Growler. The cost now approaches a billion, it’s behind schedule and not even in production, much less ready for deployment on a battlefield.

Reporter Pkg runs:

Wilson Narration: At the Marine’s Camp Lejeune down here in North Carolina late in May, out on a test track? There it was. The military’s chosen new combat vehicle that Detroit auto experts claim still fails to meet specs and is clearly still incapable of battlefield maneuvers.

Jerry Bazinski/Detroit Auto Designer: …coming around the turn, a turtle was crossing the road. (Wilson) A turtle? (Bazinski) A turtle. The marine tried to maneuver around the turtle rather than running it over and the vehicle simply flipped at 22 miles-an-hour.

Wilson Narration: Now, remember, this is a vehicle Marines say they need to put inside the Osprey helicopter and fly behind enemy lines in places like Middle East war zones so our troops can move nimbly and fight the enemy in their own territory.

Wilson to Bazinski: Well it’s supposed to be able to make a maneuver… (Bazinski) …at 45 miles-an-hour, a lane-change maneuver, yes. (Wilson) so this was half the speed…and it still couldn’t stay on the ground? (Bazinski) Half the speed and it’s still rolling over. (Wilson) What happens when it encounters a mine? What happens when it encounters a grenade? (Bazinski) What happens when you have to leave a hot landing zone real quick?

Wilson Narration: The Marines refuse to release the accident reports but claim the wreck was due to speed and a brake problem now fixed.

Terry Crews/American Growler: …and I made a fool of myself walking around here showing you the vehicles. You (expletive deleted). You get off the (expletive deleted) property right now! (Wilson) Okay, sir.

Wilson Narration: The man whose American Growler company was awarded the contract is former Marine Colonel Terry Crews, swearing like a sailor and tossing away my business card there. Maybe that’s why he never called back after we posed as potential customers and carried hidden cameras to show you these Growler prototypes. Some have dubbed them “dune buggies with a machine gun”…no doors, no roof— and virtually no protection for the Marine manning the gun…but the colonel, who won’t be standing back there himself, wasn’t concerned about the gunner being such an easy target for the enemy.

Wilson to Crews: “You wouldn’t be worried about that? (Crews) Nope, not at all. Just shoot back, that’s the thing. You shoot back and you shoot back with more!”

Wilson Narration: Brian Hart can imagine somebody’s son, or husband, or dad dying just like that in a vehicle that leaves them vulnerable. His son John was killed not long after he arrived in Iraq and his unarmored Humvee came under attack from insurgents. The grieving dad quit is job and went on a crusade for change. Widely credited with forcing the military to provide better equipment to keep soldiers safer in Iraq, he says the underlying problem is still not solved.

Brian Hart/Gold Star Father: The Growler program is just a typical example. It’s not unusual. It’s where cronyism has corrupted the procurement system so that small companies that make better equipment are not getting the contracts.

Wilson Narration: And back in North Carolina, what did the Colonel’s North Carolina plant manager tell us about him and what helped him and General Dynamics land the Growler deal?

Wayne Blake/Growler Manager: 30-year military Marine colonel. (Wilson) Oh that’s how he got this contract. He had some friends, didn’t he? (Blake) Yeah. He lives 15 miles from the Pentagon. (Wilson) Ahhh. So he had some connections? (Blake) He still does.

Wilson Narration: Here’s the report of an internal investigation two years ago when Marine investigators said they could not substantiate allegations that cronyism influenced the contract award. It never did explain or address the evidence we’ve uncovered that shows General Dynamics and its subcontractor the retired colonel got the contract despite failing to meet threshold requirements and scoring lower on key points than this prototype, developed by United Defense and Detroit designers.

Jerry Bazinski/Raebeck Automotive: “Our was simply better because we designed it from the ground up to meet every requirement that was stipulated in the requirements document.”

Wilson Narration: And right after we confirmed and first reported that? The Marines went into action…on the public relations front. They issued this so-called information paper to members of Congress. Bazinski: After reviewing the information Steve, it’s shocking to see the flagrant lies that were given to Congress. (Wilson) Lies. You’re not just talking about spinning it their way? (Bazinski) They’re flagrant lies, misrepresentations.

Wilson Narration: Congress was told the Colonel’s vehicle ultimately selected—and not the Detroit design—provided the best value to the government and the system met extremely demanding requirements that “no other vehicle or…system meet,” yet…

Bazinski: Their own evaluations showed that our system met and exceeded every requirement that was listed in the strength and weaknesses report. We had no significant weaknesses...

Wilson Narration: …while this document shows the Colonel’s Growler still failed to meet the threshold requirement that it able to be lifted by helicopter. The Marines are also telling Congress that even though the Detroit model was initially judged best, later both prototypes were considered equal with cost being the only difference.

Bazinski: Even if you look at the cost summary of it, it shows that team A, contractor A, was $25 million less. (Wilson) That’s you. (Bazinski) That’s us.

Wilson Narration: And, the Marines are telling Congress, they’ve already investigated and decided the whole bidding process was properly conducted… but those allegations that Marines ultimately selected a second-rate combat vehicle? They have yet to be addressed in any thorough government probe.

Brian Hart: …and the military does respond to public outrage but if we just let them get away with it, then it will continue and continue and continue.

Wilson to John Garner/EFSS Project Manager: Explain to me why this information paper… (Garner) I’m going to call the police!

Wilson Narration: Tonight at 11 there’s more from the Marine’s project manager who was told not to talk…And why has Michigan’s senior senator been so reluctant to get to the bottom of all this?

Sen. Carl Levin/D-Michigan: I thought you were a reporter. You’re supposed to be asking questions and finding information. (Wilson) I’ve asked plenty of questions. You don’t want to answer.

Wilson live tag: As we said, the senator and others on capital hill are now asking for a thorough investigation…Representatives Joe Knollenberg and Candace Miller have issued the call, too…and when I’m back tonight at 11, I’ll show you more of the reasons that seems entirely appropriate after hundreds of our poorly protected troops have already paid with their lives in Iraq.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:05:37 AM EDT

[#1]

Its a tactical golf cart, propbably designed to be V22 transportable to replace the G-wagons of whatever the USMC is current using.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:08:19 AM EDT

[#2]

In my best Clinger voice: "Captain, there is a reason they don't run these things at Indianapolis"

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:10:47 AM EDT

[#3]

Looks like a modern jeep that probably costs 10x as much even in inflated dollars.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:11:33 AM EDT

[#4]

Would make a kick ass golf cart.
needs turf tires on it though.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:12:43 AM EDT

[#5]

Reminds me of a Suzuki Samurai, but probably costs 25X as much.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:12:58 AM EDT

[#6]

Do those news people understand that the prototype stage is there to fix problems with a piece of equipment?

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:14:25 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Do those news people understand that the prototype stage is there to fix problems with a piece of equipment?

You are not old enough to remember, but you should have heard the media screaming about the Abhrams during IT'S prototype phase.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:14:48 AM EDT

[#8]

These run around $140K each.....

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:15:23 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
These run around $140K each.....

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:17:42 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
These run around $140K each.....

I assume that is the prototype cost?

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:19:11 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
These run around $140K each.....

Holy shit. Who in the fuck thought THAT would be reasonable?

I cannot possibly see WHY that vehicle would cost that much. A father and son could probably build a kit or something comparable in their garage for $5k.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:20:59 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
These run around $140K each.....

Holy crap, I hope that's just for the test vehicles and not production cost.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:26:06 AM EDT

[#13]

production cost will be a very cheap 100,000.

Not including stereo, or cushions on the seats.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:26:08 AM EDT

[#14]

"Combat vehicle"?

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:28:58 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
These run around $140K each.....

And

Wilson Live Open: And that’s according to the Marines’ own evaluation of this thing called the Growler. The cost now approaches a billion, it’s behind schedule and not even in production, much less ready for deployment on a battlefield.

They have poured a BILLION dollars into this golf cart? And they run 140K each?!

That's gotta be wrong.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:29:41 AM EDT

[#16]

Yeah, JohninAustin, and remeber the howling about the original Bradley fighting vehicle?

"It will be destroyed by a $2.00 grenade thrown at the front hull!!"

"The transmissions will break and get thousands of troops killed!!"

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:30:32 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
These run around $140K each.....

And

Wilson Live Open: And that’s according to the Marines’ own evaluation of this thing called the Growler. The cost now approaches a billion, it’s behind schedule and not even in production, much less ready for deployment on a battlefield.

They have poured a BILLION dollars into this golf cart? And they run 140K each?!

That's gotta be wrong.

In this day and age, it's good to be a military contractor and lousy to be a taxpayer.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:33:25 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Yeah, JohninAustin, and remeber the howling about the original Bradley fighting vehicle?

"It will be destroyed by a $2.00 grenade thrown at the front hull!!"

"The transmissions will break and get thousands of troops killed!!"

I STILL remember the screaming about the Bradleys. "Deathtraps" was about the most common word. Especially in fuel fires and river crossings. Why, who'd ever think a multi-ton combat vehicle could sink.

How many Kawasaki mules and four-wheelers do you think the govt could have bought for a billion $$?

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:37:18 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
These run around $140K each.....

That probably includes training, special parts, maintenance and other military only options.

The only fools are the people who think they can build light vehicles that will meet mission requirements and still carry enough armor to protect them from full size cartridges and RPGs.

It's called fire and maneuver for a reason. Sit still for more than a few minutes and you'll die.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:37:21 AM EDT

[#20]

Actually the Bradleys were a failure in the regards to what they were claimed to do and what they actually do.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:38:44 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
snip

snip $2.00 grenade snip

group buy!!!!

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:42:44 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Actually the Bradleys were a failure in the regards to what they were claimed to do and what they actually do.

"That's one hell of a cannon."
"That's the problem."
"What is?"
"You go out on the battlefield with this pecker sticking out of your turret, and the enemy's going to unload on you with everything they got. Might as well put a big red bullseye on the side."
"But it's a troop carrier, not a tank."
"Do you want me to put a sign on it in fifty languages, 'I am a troop carrier, not a tank. Please don't shoot at me?' "

"In summation, what you have before you is..."
"A troop transport that can't carry troops, a reconnaissance vehicle that's too conspicuous to do reconnaissance..."
"And a quasi-tank that has less armor than a snow-blower, but carries enough ammo to take out half of D.C. THIS is what we're building? "

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:44:11 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2005/12/29/growler-7K.jpg

images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2005/12/29/growler-100K.jpg
www.angelfire.com/biz7/troopgear/Mvc_072s.jpg

Its a tactical golf cart, propbably designed to be V22 transportable to replace the G-wagons of whatever the USMC is current using.

That is NOT the same vehicle that is shown in the video.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:47:58 AM EDT

[#24]

Well the armor was posionous when hit by small arms

The APC did not ford rivers like it was claimed, it sank

The 25mm cannon is a joke on MBTs

So they said hey, lets strap some of those new niffty TOW missles on it, and added it on as an afterthought. Which gives you two shots, and then you have to get outside of it on the battlefield and quickly load 2 more rounds in it.

Now remember this was built when we expected a HUGE SOVIET armored force to be pushing through the Fulda Gap in West Germany. Now imagine getting out to reload your M3 during that 10:1 Soviet ratio advantage of armor.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:51:55 AM EDT

[#25]

The Growler is a recycled M151 MUTT. Four-wheel independent suspension with nowhere near the stance of a HMMWV.

Make it top-heavy and you're gonna have trouble.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:53:29 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
The Growler is a recycled M151 MUTT. Four-wheel independent suspension with nowhere near the stance of a HMMWV.

Make it top-heavy and you're gonna have trouble.

I like that they show it towing a mortar but have no room for the crew or ammo. Maybe they are following in a hummer.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:58:10 AM EDT

[#27]

That thing’s gonna cost $100,000? You gotta be kidding. It would be overpriced at one tenth that. I’ve seen plenty of better looking homemade off road vehicles.

I don’t take the press at face value and I’m not quick to jump on the military for anything. Key facts could be missing. Perhaps the vehicle has to be made out of some special alloy or something. But this is something that needs a serious looking into.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - News Broadcast: New prototype military vehicle "Growler" putting soldiers at risk

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