I'm kicking around the idea of a new AWD car. I had been focused on the subaru legacy or outback just because they have such a solid reputation and I've loved the few I've driven. I rode in a friends new ford fusion sport this weekend and it felt like a surprisingly decent car. Is their AWD tech new or has it been around and tested for a while? Anyone drive a fusion AWD?

Subaru= Proven

Not sure about ford

Subaru is committed to AWD.  Ford is trying to "market" it in their Fusion.

Go with the proven product.

Ford has Rally heritage in countries other than this one.

I still would pick a Subaru, though.

Isn't the Toyota FJ AWD?

According to my exhaustive studies (googled for about a min or two) they pale in comparison.

4x4

I think Subaru may be the only non luxury brand to have awd with a 50/50 power distribution front and back. Others is much smaller like 30/70 or something, and some only work when it feels slippage like a Honda crv or at least that's how our crv worked a few years ago.

Most AWD offerings from luxury brands have a split almost entirely to RWD in normal driving and then shift power to the front when it senses slippage.  This usually provides  for better performance and handling in dry conditions as you have two wheels dedicated to steering and two pushing the car.  Audi is the only exception that I can think of which has had most power pushed to the front wheels.  Full time AWD split 50-50 is very rare.

The 6 speed manual is, but what does that have to do with the question?  OP was asking about Subaru vs Ford
 

Figure out the drivetrain combo on the ford and see if it has been used in europe or elsewhere much.

Personally I would go subby.

I have heard guys that have F150 Harley's love the AWD systems they have and Ford is well known in other countries for their AWD cars/SUV's in other countries...  Close your eyes and pick one.  

Ford's AWD in the Fusion, Taurus, Flex, and Edge are heavily based on the Haldex system. It employes a power transfer unit instead of a center diff, and are all front-wheel based systems (transaxle to PTU, to rear axles). It doesn't use any limited slip differentials, so you're relying on ABS-based traction control and torque limiting from spark retarding/fuel restriction.





The Subaru WRX STI has limited slip differentials in the front, center, and rear differentials. There are about 3 production vehicles that have this type of setup: Lamborghini Murcielago, STI, and the Lancer Evo. The other "AWD" cars generally have open front and rear diffs, maybe a limited slip center diff. Some sportier AWD cars like the Mazda CX-7, Subaru Legacy will have an open front, limited center, and limited rear.



The HMMWV has limited slip front, center, and rear differentials (Torsen T-1s for the front/rear). The transfer case houses a torque-biasing diff so you can drive it in 4WD-H all the time, even on dry tarmac.





I read a few SAE white papers that talked about split mu traction and acceleration on snow. Basically you WANT a limited slip or viscous coupling differential on each axle and the center differential. Essentially: Subaru WRX STI for the win. Everything else is a compromise for traction.



The biggest joke has to be the 4x4 pickup trucks. The Ford F-150 FX4 and SVT Raptor are 4WD, which means it is NOT full-time 4WD or AWD due to the transfer case locking the axles, instead of using a torque-biasing unit to shift the torque front/rear as needed. In addition, the FX4 and Raptor have electronic locking rear differentials that ONLY operate in 4WD mode. So if you're driving along in 2WD, you have a 4x1 truck like a lame duck RWD car with an open differential in the rear. When you engage 4WD, you then have the option of engaging the e-locker. That's when you get 4x3 traction.



A lot of people have positive experiences in snow with basic 4WD or AWD systems, but you can still get stuck very easily. A co-worker's Audi A4 (Haldex AWD, no limited slip differentials) got stuck in 12" of snow. My Crown Vic (RWD, with limited slip) had trouble at that depth as well but I could still move around.



The STI is like a HMMWV with a lower ground clearance, there's not much that can stop it. If you want AWD, make sure you have at least 2 limited slip differentials. Not many cars have them, so do your research before you buy into the hype. With 4WD, make sure you get a limited slip in the rear diff and NOT some e-locker that only works on command - unless you plan to off-road a lot.





 

Ford Develops AWD System In-House
By Byron Pope
WardsAuto.com, Jul 10, 2006 10:02 AM Email a link to this articleEmail a link to this article  Printer-friendly version of this articlePrinter-friendly version of this article  

DEARBORN, MI – Ford Motor Co. has developed its own all-wheel-drive system for several upcoming sedans and cross/utility vehicles, rather than expand use of the system supplied by Swedish parts maker Haldex AB, Phillip Kurrle, driveline systems supervisor tells Ward’s.

The new system will be offered in V-6 Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan and Lincoln MKZ (formerly Zephyr) midsize sedans and Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX CUVs.

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Kurrle says there are several reasons why Ford decided to develop an AWD system in-house, instead of using the Haldex system employed in the bigger Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego sedans and Ford Freestyle CUV.

“Trying to get that hardware across the ocean actually would cost us more than making it domestically,” he says. “We were also trying to get something that better fit the application. We were trying to engineer a system that was conducive to the (Fusion/Milan/MKZ) customer (and) flexible enough so we could also put it on the Edge and MKX.”

Cost and capacity also were factors in the decision to develop an AWD system in-house, Kurrle says at a media preview here of Ford’s ’07 models.

Haldex simply didn’t have the capability to supply the volumes needed for the midsize sedan and CUV programs, Kurrle says, and Ford was able to develop a simpler, more affordable unit.
Upcoming Ford Edge to feature internally developed AWD system.

The Ford AWD system is similar to that used on the Ford Escape CUV, he says, adding that Ford developed the system independently of its subsidiaries, including Mazda Motor Corp., which engineered its own system.

Being able to build the system in great quantities is essential to meeting earlier announced plans to sell 500,000 vehicles with fulltime AWD systems annually in the U.S. by 2007.

The Ford-developed technology is similar in many ways to the Haldex system, Kurrle says, without revealing exactly what changes were made. “This is a ‘slip-and-grip’ system. It detects the slip of the front wheels and transfers torque, similar to the Haldex system.”

The Ford technology, Kurrle says, is simpler than the Haldex system because it is “more electro mechanical (and) the Haldex is more of a pressure, hydraulic-based” system.
 Related Stories
Ford to Expand All-Wheel-Drive Offerings
Small-Car Segment Next Hill to Climb for AWD, Magna Says
Edge CUV Portends Future of Ford

Despite the simpler setup, Kurrle is quick to point out that the Ford system is “designed and calibrated so it’s got as good a performance as the Haldex.”

The system eventually could make its way onto other Ford vehicles, including the Five Hundred.

Kurrle, who was wearing a shirt with the logo “4Drive” at the event here, says the moniker does not refer to a potential brand name for the Ford-developed AWD system. Rather, he says 4Drive is an internal slogan.

However, Fusion Marketing Manager Dan Geist says there is some ongoing internal discussion as to whether or not to brand the system, but “nothing has been finalized.”

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Go with the Subaru

Just to correct a few things said in some of these posts:

No Subaru other than the STi has three LSDs.
All other Subarus have, at most, two, one of which, and possibly both, are crappy viscous diffs.

Subaru 5-speed manuals are notoriously weak.

Subaru automatics use an electronically controlled center diff, which is really a planetary gearset. It does not, contrary to Subaru marketing hype, have a 50/50 torque split. It has a range of 65-35 and is constantly adjusting. They seem to operate in front-bias most of the time.

Ford has been building AWD vehicles for as long as Subaru has, and some have been quite good.
Others, less so.

If it's Haldex based, I'd avoid it.
And by the article above, it is.
But, frankly, for most people, AWD is highly over-rated.
It's all about tire choice.

Is it just the sti or do the wrx non-sti models have the same setup?

Check out the new Ford Taurus SHO.   If I were in the market for a new AWD car,  I'd be considering it.

Just the STi.

The WRX (except for some 2002 models) have two LSDs, a viscous center and rear.
Although the 2002 WRXs were sold as having center and rear LSDs, I'd estimate about 1 in 3 I've checked is missing the rear LSD.

The article above clearly states that the Fusion AWD system is Ford proprietary and NOT Haldex based.
Some of the older Ford Vehicles used Haldex systems, but not the Fusion and newer vehicles.

Ah, probably not for me then. Tempting as that 300hp monster is, the $10k bump in price is too much for my budget.

Read closer.


By Haldex-based, I am referring to the "slip-and-grip" control strategy, and PTO.
The Ford system very clearly has it.

I do not believe the SVT raptor will be a one wheeled wonder.

Gotcha.

THe Fusion AWD system has a "PTO" off of the front transaxle, a driveshaft that runs to the rear into a "active torque coupler" that delivers torque to the rear when needed.

I dont have nay real hands on experience with the Fusion AWD, but we own a 2007 Fusion SEL front wheel drive and it is an great vehicle. Drives nice, handles nice and has plenty of power 2.5ltr V6 220 HP. The new Fusion sports have 260 ish HP from the bigger V6. Wife loves it.

Ford hasn't been building AWD systems very long, and most of their new cars use a Haldex-based system. The Ford 500/Taurus actually used a Haldex AWD for a few years before they switched to their in-house copy of the Haldex.








The SVT Raptor and FX4 use an e-locker rear differential which operates in 4WD only. So it is a 1 wheeled wonder in normal 2WD mode. In 4WD mode, it is a 3-wheel wonder (still no limited slip for the front axles). The T-case locks the front and rear axles, but the front differential is still open. The SVT Raptor is still not even close to the HMMWV's full-time 4WD setup.



Like I said before, the WRX STI (not STi, they changed it recently) is one of 3 vehicles that I know of which comes from the factory with 3 limited slip differentials (front, center, and rear). The others are the Lamborghini Murcielago and the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. Other AWD cars are at most open front, limited center, and limited rear. Most AWD cars are open front, limited slip center, and open rear - which pales in comparison to the ones with limited slip differentials for the axles.



Several SAE white papers indicated that the limited slip differential really helps for split mu scenarios (one wheel on very slick surface) and for acceleration on snow.



The WRX STI has an electronically controlled center differential that just allows you to manually shift the amount of power to the front wheels (up to 50% IIRC). The STI has torsen differentials in the front and rear.



 

The new Fusion Sport has the 3.5L V6 w/ 263 hp and the Haldex-style AWD. The Taurus SHO has a twin-turbo 3.5L V6 with the Haldex-style AWD. The SHO goes fast in a straight line and fails in braking and handling. Since these AWD systems only have limited slip center differentials, they're not the best for snow driving. The electronic systems look great on paper, but there's a reason why the STI has mechanical torque-biasing differentials in the front and rear axles, just like the HMMWV.



 

well wth? Lightnings are true 2 rear wheel. I thought they only made trucks anymore that spin both tires.

I believe the non-FX4 F-150 can have a limited slip rear differential. The e-locker is handy when you're driving cross-country because it performs almost like a true locker in 4WD only. However, most of us drive on paved roads. In the winter, while we may encounter a lot of snow in SE MI, there are times where you would encounter ice, dry pavement, snow, etc... and basically it is mixed terrain. I'd rather have a limited slip differential than an e-locker for most applications.



My Crown Vic was getting stuck in the same snow (8"-12") as a co-worker's Audi A4 (Haldex AWD). My Crown Vic also had all-season tires at the time (Goodyear TripleTreds).



 

The move from the Salisbury-type LSD to a Torsen rear differential is a move backwards for Subaru.
Of course, from my perspective, not much on '08 and later WRX/STi is an improvement.
The front on a current STi is also not a Torsen, but a helical-style. Minor distinction, I know, but Subaru felt it necessary to make.

The DCCD can change the bias in the front from about 35% to 50%, and also lock the center diff (100%).

The Salisbury is kind of a neat design. The Torsen/Torque-biasing units certainly have their flaws, but from experience, any limited slip differential is better than an open differential. Ford advertised the traction control in my 00 Crown Vic as being suitable for use in the snow, and even showed a picture of a snow packed tire. In reality, all the traction control did was slow down that one spinning wheel.



Interestingly enough, they claim that an open differential for a FWD application is acceptable for use in split-mu and acceleration on snow, nevertheless I would feel more confident having a limited slip unit for the front wheels.



 

Agreed. Although from personal experience (rally cars) Torsen/helical diffs suck in situations with huge Mu-splits, like one wheel in the air or one on dry grippy pavement and one on ice.
That's why no rally car uses the things anymore.

Dang, now I have to bookmark this so I can read it a few times to really understand everything I read.  Some darn good posts in here.

I have no clue where my jeep falls, grand cherokee with qdII 4x4 system that is awd and senses slip and has differntials that engage from that slip instead of brakes being applied.  I forget what the transfer case does in 4 hi, in 4 low I think it is smart but I am tired after work and not about to go dig up the specs.

I personally never liked the idea of brakes being applied but I also readily admit my jeep is smarter than I am when it comes to mucky and yucky farm roads and what not.

I still think I would go with the subby since I could see what people have done to it for mods and decide how strong the system is and how well it will work.

I have a bit of a fear of stuff that stupid people have not torture tested on youtube since stuff that handles morons abusing it generally will last a darn long time if I drive it like a normal person should drive the vehicle.

Anyway, if a used grand cherokee with the 4.7h.0. engine fits your needs you might consider it.  I have the diesel in my jeep but that is because I like diesels.  The 4.7h.o. does about as well on mileage and while it can't tow as much that should not matter in your case.

Problem with the grand cherokee jeep is there are a few 4wd systems, the qdII is the most expensive and smartest but I am kind of wondering when something out of warranty breaks and I get annoyed with repair parts cost.

Yeah, a lot of stuff flying over my head.
I want to figure out who has the "best" system ranked by:

dependability
traction on snow/ice (as opposed to racing launches ... is there a difference)


Google searching says it's subaru.

Fuck the UAW, and get yourself a better car in the process.

Click here for why Subaru is better than Ford

Standard transmission Subarus have a limited slip differential front/back that is 50/50. (It might be electric, it can be disabled by removing a fuse.)

The automatic transmission Subarus have a limited slip differential electric clutch front/back that is 90/10.  (I think it's electric, and it definitely can be disabled by removing a fuse.)

Someone paying close attention to it may notice a slight difference in how they drive, and you definitely would with a fast start on low traction (ice or snow) but for the normal driver there's not much difference.  Both systems are much better than straight up front wheel drive.

The parts in red are incorrect or misleading.
The center diff in the manual Subaru (STi notwithstanding) is a viscous-type. These must have a differential speed between outputs to actually work, as they rely on the fluid heating up from being sheared. In other words, they suck. They also cannot be disabled by pulling a fuse.

The automatic Subarus use a planetary gearset and bands to adjust torque. It is not a LSD in any conventional sense, but an electric version of a Torsen, in that it is torque-biasing, as opposed to limited-slip. The split is very adjustable, and only defaults to 90/10 in a few very odd situations. It can be disabled by pulling a fuse, and it reverts to 100% to the front wheels, and none to the rear.

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X.

For traction on snow/ice, tires are more important than the AWD type.

Me in my VW Jetta FWD with Blizzaks vs a Subaru with anything else in a Colorado snow storm would be a fun day  And I think I would have a VERY good chance of getting home first.


ETA: and since my Jetta is a TDi even it I did get totally stuck I would be warm and comfortable for hours till help came

It's all about the tire choice!



Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3 - BMW M5.

No, real 4WD.

Is that you?

I'm looking at a Volvo XC70 for my wife... I'd assume it's a Haldex system?

Yup, that's me.
No problems at all, through WY, MT, ND, SD, MN, and MI the week of Christmas and New Year 2008.

I believe the Volvo system is Haldex.

(snip)

Is that you?

I'm looking at a Volvo XC70 for my wife... I'd assume it's a Haldex system?

[/quote]

Yup, that's me.
No problems at all, through WY, MT, ND, SD, MN, and MI the week of Christmas and New Year 2008.

I believe the Volvo system is Haldex.[/quote]

So, the Haldex system reduces/controls excessive wheel-spin with the ABS system?

Yup, that's me.
No problems at all, through WY, MT, ND, SD, MN, and MI the week of Christmas and New Year 2008.

I believe the Volvo system is Haldex.[/quote]

So, the Haldex system reduces/controls excessive wheel-spin with the ABS system?

[/quote]

Correct.
They are actually quite competent systems, for their intended use.
They are not, VAGs efforts included, performance systems.
For the average driver in slippery conditions, they work well.

Audi Haldex gen 4 = Subaru Symmetrical Both Reactive AWD



 

Uh, no.
The FF (Ferguson Formula) Interceptor was the first performance car marketed with AWD, and is quite interesting.

Audi Quattro is functionally the same as Subaru's AWD.
The difference is is the differential architecture.
The STi and Evo AWd systems are hugely more capable than anything Audi has ever marketed and sold.

Torsens have their place, but performance AWD systems really aren't it.

At least not from a rally perspective, which is, of course, where real AWD development takes place.

Of course, Audi was never particularly dominant in rallying, despite the best efforts of popular mythology and Audi's marketing department to convince us otherwise.
Tellingly, even Audi's rally cars did not use Torsens.

The last top-tier rallycar I can remember with a Torsen diff was the BG-chassis Mazda 323 GTX, which won exactly 0 WRC events.

the sti's diff is also adjustable



 

A4 audi's are Torsen AWD...
TT's and A3's are Haldex AWD...

I HATED my Audi. The only thing that redeemed it was the Blizzaks... and that wasn't the car now was it.



I am looking at an STI in a few years.