Gunther Rall - 3rd highest scoring ace passes away

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gunther Rall - 3rd highest scoring ace passes away (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:00:21 PM EDT

Just saw this, he passed on 4 Oct 2009. Gunther Rall was highly respected by the RAF and USAF, he was in a lot of documentaries due to his excellent English. He commanded Erich Hartmann (352 victories) for a spell in JG 52 and is considered the best defection shot in WWII.

Generalleutnant Günther Rall, who has died aged 91, was one of the few outstanding German fighter leaders to survive the Second World War; by the end of the conflict he was the third-highest-scoring fighter ace of all time with 275 aerial victories.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/military-obituaries/air-force-obituaries/6299837/Generalleutnant-Gnther-Rall.html

In postwar years he was one of the founding fathers of the modern German Air Force and rose to become its chief.

In the spring of 1941 Rall was a squadron commander in Jagdgeschwader (fighter wing) JG-52 flying the Messerschmitt Bf 109 based in Romania. By this time Germany and the Soviet Union were at war and Soviet bombers were attacking the crucial oil refineries. In five days Rall and his men destroyed some 50 Soviet bombers and were next sent to the southern sector of the Eastern Front where Rall's victories mounted rapidly against the inferior Soviet fighters and bombers.

After shooting down his 36th victim, Rall was attacked by an enemy fighter and his aircraft badly damaged. He just managed to cross the German lines before crash landing in a rock-strewn gully. He was severely wounded and knocked unconscious but German tank crews dragged him clear. He eventually reached a hospital in Vienna where it was found that he had broken his back in three places. Here he was treated by a woman doctor, Hertha, who later became his wife.

When Austria was annexed in 1938 Hertha had helped Jewish friends escape to London, even as Nazi discrimination and anti-Semitic policy made their lives intolerable. Indeed, while Rall was always a devoted soldier in the service of his country, when the facts of the Holocaust were presented to him he came to look on them as "the greatest madness of this insane war".

"We knew about Dachau, the concentration camps, but not exactly what happened there," he later explained. "During the war I was hardly in Germany. The airfields were on the front, we had no idea of what was happening behind our backs. When I heard of Auschwitz, I did not believe it. We said clearly: 'That's propaganda'."

Having been paralysed for months Rall returned to operational duty in August 1942. On September 3 he was decorated with the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross after his 65th victory. During the following month his score increased beyond 100, bringing him the oak leaves for his Knight's Cross, the 134th recipient of the coveted award. In November they were presented to him personally by Hitler. Afterwards, as they sat together by the fire, Rall asked Hitler: "Führer, how long will this war take?" Hitler replied: "My dear Rall, I don't know." That surprised him. "I thought our leaders knew everything," Rall recalled, "and suddenly I realised they didn't know anything."

In April 1943 Rall was promoted to command III/JG-52. He was constantly in action for the next 11 months. On August 29 he recorded his 200th victory on his 555th operational flight and on September 12 he was again summoned to Berlin when Hitler awarded him the Swords to his Knight's Cross, the 34th man to be so honoured. Rall returned to operations and in October accounted for another 40 aircraft – more than many of Germany's best pilots achieved throughout the entire war.

As the war progressed, the obsolete Soviet fighters were steadily replaced by others with far superior performance. Nevertheless, the great majority of Rall's successes were in fighter-to-fighter combat. During his time on the Eastern Front, Rall came up against many excellent Soviet pilots and was himself shot down seven times. Finally, in April 1944, he returned to Germany.

The son of a merchant, Günther Rall was born on March 10 1918 in Gaggenau in the Black Forest. When he was three, his family moved to Stuttgart where he completed his education at the High School. On graduation in 1936 he joined the Army to be an infantry officer and whilst at the Dresden Kriegsschule met an old friend whose tales of flying convinced him that he should apply to be a pilot.

During the 1930s Rall had viewed the rise of Hitler with no particular enthusiasm but, like many soldiers, approved of the way in which Hitler and the National Socialists had ended decades of humiliation for German-speaking people.

"When Hitler became chancellor," Rall remembered, "there was no unemployment, no more Rhineland occupation, no more reparations to the victors [of the Great War]. That impressed us as young soldiers, no doubt about it."

In 1939 Rall trained as a fighter pilot on a base east of Berlin and was transferred to JG-52. Flying a Messerschmitt Bf 109, he saw his first air combat in May 1940 during the Battle of France. On May 18 he shot down a French Air Force Curtis Hawk fighter flown by a Czech sergeant who escaped by parachute. With the fall of France, Rall's unit moved to Calais.

He flew throughout the Battle of Britain, when his unit was assigned to escort Junkers Ju-87 Stukas (dive bombers), very slow-flying aircraft. The fighters had to stick with them, giving up all of their superiority and speed; the unit suffered heavy losses against the Spitfires and Hurricanes, losing the group commander, the adjutant and all three squadron commanders in a few weeks. Rall soon found himself rapidly promoted to squadron leader before the unit was finally withdrawn in September to rebuild and train new pilots.

Rall was critical of the tactics used which made his valuable and capable aircraft vulnerable to attack by fighters. He always spoke very highly of the RAF. During a postwar interview he said: "In my experience, the RAF pilot was the most aggressive and capable fighter pilot during the Second World War."

Once the squadron had been brought up to strength, it was transferred to Romania to defend the oil refineries and bridges over the Danube during the spring of 1941. After providing support for the German airborne assault on Crete, Rall's unit hurried back to Romania following the outbreak of war with the Soviet Union.

After returning from the Eastern Front, Rall was made Gruppenkommadeur of II/JG-11, flying Bf 109s on homeland defence duties, primarily against the high-flying daylight bomber forces and their escorting fighters of the USAAF 8th Air Force. On May 12 1944 he attacked a large formation and shot down two USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts, but was then himself shot down. He was severely wounded in the hand but managed to bail out over Frankfurt. His wound became badly infected and he remained in hospital for six months.

Because he was deemed too precious for the morale of the people, and could not fire his guns because of a missing thumb, he was kept from combat. Rall became an instructor, and studied several American planes that had fallen into the possession of the Luftwaffe to find their strengths and weaknesses and to develop better tactics to teach his students. He flew the P-51 and was amazed at the luxury and quality of the American planes. He once explained that being unable to fly in combat probably saved his life at a time when Germany was totally outnumbered and the chances of staying alive were drastically reduced. But he returned to active duty in November.

Rall's last command was as the leader of JG-300 and on arrival at the unit's airfield he was forced to dive into a ditch as USAAF fighters strafed the line up of Bf 109s – 15 were left burning. The Luftwaffe was in retreat and he flew his final operations from Salzburg. During this time he flew the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter but never in combat. He and his inexperienced pilots flew whenever Rall could commandeer fuel. There was no organised air defence system, intelligence on Allied movements was negligible and Rall led his pilots against targets of opportunity.

He flew his 621st and final mission at the end of April. Towards the very last days of the war he asked the men in his command to try to stay alive rather than get involved in senseless actions. He felt it was his responsibility as a leader to try to save the few lives that he could as the war was virtually over and its outcome could not be reversed. A few days later he was captured by the Americans.

Rall flew against all the major Allied fighters and had a high regard for the Spitfire and the Russian Lavochkin 7, which appeared on the scene as he was leaving the Eastern Front, but he always considered the USAAF's P-51 Mustang to be supreme.

By any standard, Rall's achievements during the Second World War were outstanding and attracted great admiration from his former adversaries. An American aviation historian of the Smithsonian Institute commented: "He occupies a special niche among the celebrated military pilots of the twentieth century."

Yet Rall never considered himself a hero. "We fought for our country and to stay alive," he reflected. "We did not think about the personal nature of killing in the air. We were proud of every victory in the air, and particularly happy that we had not been hit ourselves. Of course, I tell myself in quiet moments today: 'You've killed. In order to protect others and not be killed yourself.' But in the end: for what? The Third Reich trained 30,000 pilots. Ten thousand survived the war. One-third. This is the highest loss rate along with the U-boat sailors."

Returning to post-war Germany, Rall was unable to find work. He started a small wood cutting business in the forest and eventually joined Siemens as a representative, leaving in 1953. After meeting a wartime friend and Luftwaffe pilot he joined the new Luftwaffe der Bundeswehr after the re-militarisation of West Germany in 1955. He converted to jet fighters before becoming the project officer for the introduction of the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, which became the German air force's main operational fighter until 1980. Among many modifications he insisted upon, which led to the F-104G version, was the replacement of the American ejection seat with the British Martin Baker seat.

Rall became the Chief of Staff of Nato's 4th Allied Tactical Air Force and after serving as the Inspector General of the Luftwaffe he was appointed the Chief of Air Staff, a post he held for three years. For two years he was the German military representative at Nato headquarters before retiring in 1975.

In retirement Rall established firm friendships with his former British and American adversaries and made many visits to each country. A greatly respected, charming and modest man, he was in regular demand as a lecturer and attended many functions to sign books and aviation art. He was still fulfilling engagements until shortly before his death on October 4.

In 2004 he wrote his memoir, Mein Flugbuch (My Flightbook). He was an honorary fellow of the Society of Experimental Test Pilots.

Gunther Rall's wife, Hertha, died in 1985. He is survived by their two daughters.

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:11:30 PM EDT

[#1]

Hitler sent all of the paragraphs to Bergen-Belsen where they were gassed.

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:13:07 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Hitler sent all of the paragraphs to Bergen-Belsen where they were gassed.

Let me go back in and do an edit.

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:19:05 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Hitler sent all of the paragraphs to Bergen-Belsen where they were gassed.

holy fuck. I just choked on a stick of mozzarella string cheese.

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:21:00 PM EDT

[#4]

I still need to read his biography, bought an autographed edition a couple years ago.

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:24:03 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

dupe

Not in the GD!!!

The other thread is collecting cobwebs in another discussion area.

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:25:16 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
dupe

Not in the GD!!!

The other thread is collecting cobwebs in another discussion area.

Sorry, Tried to un-dupe my dupe, because I was unable to find a link to original thread.

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:26:48 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

dupe

Not in the GD!!!

The other thread is collecting cobwebs in another discussion area.

Sorry, Tried to un-dupe my dupe, because I was unable to find a link to original thread.

No problem!!

Posted: 12/20/2009 11:27:05 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Hitler sent all of the paragraphs to Bergen-Belsen where they were gassed.

You know, wine fucking HURTS coming out of your Goddamn nose, you bastard!

Posted: 12/21/2009 2:43:57 AM EDT

[#9]

May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

Posted: 12/21/2009 3:49:08 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

He wasn't a Nazi as most Luftwaffe fighter pilots were not, he would not have been allowed to serve in the West German Air force if he were.

He also gave the British and American's much information on how the Soviet Air Force operated upon his capture at the end of the war.

Now Nowotny and especially Rudel were Nazi's.

Posted: 12/21/2009 4:07:30 AM EDT

[#11]

He killed for the nazis, so in my book, he was a nazi. good riddance.

Posted: 12/21/2009 4:09:01 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
I still need to read his biography, bought an autographed edition a couple years ago.

+1

Great read

Posted: 12/21/2009 5:39:51 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

He killed for the nazis, so in my book, he was a nazi. good riddance.

It's a good thing not all think like you then.

Here's John Shaw's take on Gunther Rall. Mr. Shaw painted the wonderful picture entitled "The Warrior and the Wolfpack" which depicts Rall's last combat flight.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/gunther-rall-vs-zemkes-wolfpack-9247-2.html

Very interesting commentary on my painting!

It was indeed a privilege to work firsthand with Gunther Rall and
members of the 56th FG to create this scene "The Warrior & the
Wolfpack". After extensive interviews and time spent with Rall a few
years ago to accurately conceptualize this scene, he actually drew for
me a diagram of the position of his 109 in relation to the four P-47s,
as seen in the painting.

As to the markings on his a/c (I am very much
a stickler as to these types of details), try as we might, we were
unable to establish the exact paint motif applied to the spinner of his
plane...We were able to nail down a number on the rudder of his plane
that day, and in a vintage photo which depicted numerous parked 109s,
one of which bore a number on the rudder with an almost identical
number (the last digit was different), we noticed a variety of spinner
paint schemes; some with 1 white band, some w/two (as in painting),
some with none at all. Rall asserted that at that time, that many of
the a/c his unit were using had been "pieced together" in the interest
of time and necessity, and that it would be virtually impossible to
establish a 100% positive marking.

When he saw the concept sketch (very
similar to finished painting), he heartily approved, and the only thing
which he noted varied from exactly how he remembered this encounter
which was all-too-vividly etched in his mind, was that the closest P-47
should have been back farther (about the same distance as the other 3),
but agreed that this piece of 'artistic license' would be permissable,
in that at different times at higher altitudes in the encounter, they
did indeed get that close. When he recounts this story, he adds
emphasis by displaying his maimed hand (he still owns the glove, with
the hole which once held his thumb!)

One other memory I have while
asking him about details regarding the geography, weather conditions,
etc., was his reply, "I remember it was a clear day...as to how many
trees, hills, other things on the ground, I don't remember...I was a
little busy at the moment!"

To this day, no one is 100% certain which specific 56th pilot actually
shot Rall down, although after reading combat reports of the Wolfpack
pilots who scored kills in the Koblenz and Frankfurt area that day
(there were quite a few––Bob 'Shorty' Rankin got five!), the general
concensus is that it was likely the guns of the late Joe Powers which
brought him down.

One of my most treasured memories is that of having a
quiet dinner with Rall, Rankin, and a mutual friend, following a busy
day of the two of them signing this print, and Gunther reading aloud
the final chapters of the manuscript of his biography with the author,
Jill Amadio, for final editing. At this dinner, the two veteran pilots
(now dear friends for a number of yrs) brought up the May 12 encounter
to compare notes, after which Bob Rankin seemed positive that he could
not have been the one who shot Rall down.

As these two wonderful men
wearily got up from the table, they slowly walked toward the restaurant
exit, each with an arm around the other's shoulder, still lost in the
past. I remember Rall saying to Rankin something to the effect, "I'm
certainly glad you were not shot down that day...I love you, my
friend". This comment which I'll never forget truly sums up the
personality of this remarkable former Luftwaffe Ace.

One of the posts
on this forum I read states skeptically that a German pilot of Rall's
standing would likely never submit to being depicted in a situation in
which he was shot down...far from true! Gunther Rall, one of the
world's greatest all-time aces, is not only respected for his prowess
as a pilot, but is also loved for his authenticity, humility and desire
to see past hostilities reconciled.

This trait seems to pervade this
great generation of pilots; men like Gunther Rall, Tex Hill, Gabby
Gabreski, Bob Rankin, John Bolt, the list goes on...I've considered it
a true honor to try to preserve the legacy of their time in history
through my paintings, and from each have found other wonderful stories
and memories worth being told. I wish I had more details to share here
as far as the specifics of this particular painting of Rall & the
56th, but I hope these few comments have been helpful to those who are
interested.

We're currently constructing a new site (now showing
paintings only), which will soon recount more details I've been
privileged to glean from meetings with some of these great people
during the research for my paintings. It's libertystudios.us , and we
hope it will also become a great place to learn more about this
remarkable subject. Thanks for a great forum and I'm glad I was able to
find it! ––John D. Shaw

The Warrior and the Wolfpack.

Posted: 12/21/2009 9:31:45 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
He killed for the nazis, so in my book, he was a nazi. good riddance.

Posted: 12/21/2009 1:31:32 PM EDT

[#15]

I'll be willing to bet his opponents dont see him that way............he earned their respect, and vice versa...........same with Adolph Galland, Erich Hartmann, Erich Barkmann and Johannes Steinhoff...........

Quoted:
He killed for the nazis, so in my book, he was a nazi. good riddance.

Posted: 12/21/2009 1:38:11 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
[div class='storyHead']Just saw this, he passed on 4 Oct 2009. Gunther Rall was highly respected by the RAF and USAF, he was in a lot of documentaries due to his excellent English. He commanded Erich Hartmann (352 victories) for a spell in JG 52 and is considered the best defection shot in WWII.

I assume you meant deflection? And proceeding on that assumption, from what I've read, I always thought Marseille was generally considered the best...

Posted: 12/21/2009 1:38:30 PM EDT

[#17]

If he made General during WWII, he must of been one of the very last surviving flag officers from WWII.

Posted: 12/21/2009 2:04:09 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Hitler sent all of the paragraphs to Bergen-Belsen where they were gassed.

Thanks Col

That is the hardest I've laughed all day.

Posted: 12/21/2009 4:29:53 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Just saw this, he passed on 4 Oct 2009. Gunther Rall was highly respected by the RAF and USAF, he was in a lot of documentaries due to his excellent English. He commanded Erich Hartmann (352 victories) for a spell in JG 52 and is considered the best defection shot in WWII.

I assume you meant deflection? And proceeding on that assumption, from what I've read, I always thought Marseille was generally considered the best...

Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff, who commanded both Marseille and Rall, said that Rall was the best deflection shooter. Marseille was the best dogfighter however he wasn't good with wingmen which pissed Steinhoff off. Here is part of an interview with Steinhoff where he mentions Marseille.

WWII: Some of the men you flew with became
legends. For instance, in 1940 in France you commanded a young pilot named
Hans-Joachim Marseille. What do you remember about him?

Steinhoff: Marseille was in my wing,
4/JG.52, just before the Battle of Britain and was there shortly after it
started. I was his squadron leader, and I watched him. I knew he was a
brilliant guy, very intelligent, very quick and aggressive, but he spent too
much time looking for the girls, and his mind was not always on operations. He
actually had to be taken off flight status on more than one occasion because
he was so exhausted from his nights on the town, if you know what I mean.

WWII: So you would say he was a playboy?

[div]

Steinhoff: He was the perfect playboy, but
a real fighter. But he was an individual, not a team player. He had seven
victories when I fired him, not because he was not good, but because he was
shot down four times while getting those victories. He had no concept of Rottenflieger
[i.e., a wingman's responsibility], and many men did not want to fly with him
as their wingman, which is very bad for morale. I thought the best thing for
him was to transfer him away from the women, and he became a legend in North
Africa, of course, winning the Diamonds [to the Knight's Cross] and scoring
158 victories. He was a true character and was the epitome of the First World
War fighter pilot, but we were not fighting the First World War.

Posted: 12/21/2009 4:33:36 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
If he made General during WWII, he must of been one of the very last surviving flag officers from WWII.

He made General in the West German Air Force. He was a Major in the WWII Luftwaffe.

Posted: 12/21/2009 4:35:26 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

This is the only thing that was going through my mind.

Let's not forget.

Posted: 12/21/2009 4:44:07 PM EDT

[#22]

Mike Wooten sketched this likeness of Gunther Rall: http://www.militarytour.com/BooksArt/Art/Wooten/MajorRal.htm

Mike gave me an autographed copy in exchange for borrowing one of my ARs.

Posted: 12/21/2009 4:48:13 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Mike Wooten sketched this likeness of Gunther Rall: http://www.militarytour.com/BooksArt/Art/Wooten/MajorRal.htm

Mike gave me an autographed copy in exchange for borrowing one of my ARs.

Nice!!!

Posted: 12/21/2009 5:05:42 PM EDT

[#24]

My grandfather was a B17 bomber pilot in ww2 and the upmost repect for the luftwaffe pilots. He held no grudge at all even though they tried killing him for years.

Rall was well respected by many american fighter pilots, despite his nationality. He is simply one of the finest airborne warriors ever to take to the sky.

Posted: 12/22/2009 3:54:31 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mike Wooten sketched this likeness of Gunther Rall: http://www.militarytour.com/BooksArt/Art/Wooten/MajorRal.htm

Mike gave me an autographed copy in exchange for borrowing one of my ARs.

Nice!!!

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/eodtech2000/MajorR85.jpg

That's it! I have #227.

Years ago I actually met some old Luftwaffe pilots. Most of them were highly respected by our pilots. When Goerring ordered them to shoot our pilots after they'd bailed out, they refused. Adolf Galland was given a death sentence for refusing to pass on this order.

Posted: 12/22/2009 4:21:42 PM EDT

[#26]

I think there is quite the double standard in the praise for this guy...maybe it's just because enough time has past, I don't know.

In 50 years will ARFCOM be praising the Somalians that shot down the Blackhawks (as long as they didn't drag the bodies) or praising the guys that planted bombs under the road that have caused US soldiers to burn to death....

IMO fuck those guys, and fuck this guy that fought for the Nazis and killed more people than most Nazis but wasn't a Nazi. I can see how it may have been important to let this guy be a part of the West German Luftwaffe with the whole Soviet threat and all but we shouldn't be all up on his nuts like this.

He could have been a mediocre pilot on purpose and not killed so many Allies (minus the Soviets) "But, but, he was just fighting for his country, heritage, etc...." I'm sure that's what many Taliban, AQI, etc believe aswell. That doesn't mean I'm going to be giving an eBlowjob to or giving the eulogy at the most successful Baghdad Sniper's or Sunni Triangle IED Triggerman's funderals.

/rant

Posted: 12/22/2009 4:33:49 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

I think there is quite the double standard in the praise for this guy...maybe it's just because enough time has past, I don't know.

/rant

Its about respecting a warrior of exceptional skill not his country's ideologies.

Nobody here will praise hajji or the idiots in Somalia with RPGs. Anyone could do what they do/did.

What this man did was almost unprecedented and unsurpassed.

Posted: 12/22/2009 6:31:46 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think there is quite the double standard in the praise for this guy...maybe it's just because enough time has past, I don't know.

/rant

Its about respecting a warrior of exceptional skill not his country's ideologies.

Nobody here will praise hajji or the idiots in Somalia with RPGs. Anyone could do what they do/did.

What this man did was almost unprecedented and unsurpassed.

I have no respect for anyone who served Hitler. I will concede that he was good at what he did. Unfortunately, that was shooting down our guys.

Posted: 12/22/2009 6:37:32 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

This is the only thing that was going through my mind.

Let's not forget.

The man was an amazing pilot. I'm going to give you something for consideration. It would have been an honor to engage him - no matter who won. There is much to be said for honorable combat among exceptional warriors.

I have an autographed sketch of one of his flights hanging in my "I Love Me" Room.

Posted: 12/22/2009 6:38:33 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think there is quite the double standard in the praise for this guy...maybe it's just because enough time has past, I don't know.

/rant

Its about respecting a warrior of exceptional skill not his country's ideologies.

Nobody here will praise hajji or the idiots in Somalia with RPGs. Anyone could do what they do/did.

What this man did was almost unprecedented and unsurpassed.

I have no respect for anyone who served Hitler. I will concede that he was good at what he did. Unfortunately, that was shooting down our guys.

What about those that serve the Chosen One right now?

Many of the Germans didn't agree with Hitler.

Are we not slipping into that same situation today?

Posted: 12/22/2009 6:51:49 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

This is the only thing that was going through my mind.

Let's not forget.

Jesus Christ guys... he fought for his country. Why can't you honor his service in spite of the political shitbags in his chain of command?

I'm not aware of a NAZI air force. The Luftwaffe was the German Air Force, which happened to be under the command of Hermann Goering during WWII. IIRC, party membership was not allowed if you were in the military.

I have seen documentaries about Luftwaffe personnel rescuing Allied pilots from Buchenwald after they were illegally interned there by the Gestapo. There were a lot of honorable men who served with distinction in the Lufwaffe and the German military in general.

You cheapen the service of all WWII vets by disparaging their service. The war is over and Germany is our friend.

You may also want to keep in mind that the Allies have plenty of blood on their hands when it comes to bombing civilian targets... just saying...

Posted: 12/22/2009 6:54:35 PM EDT

[#32]

One of the All-Time Greats, he was much respected by his former foes in England & the US. He was also one tough son of a bitch.

Posted: 12/22/2009 6:56:41 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

This is the only thing that was going through my mind.

Let's not forget.

Jesus Christ guys... he fought for his country. Why can't you honor his service in spite of the political shitbags in his chain of command?

I'm not aware of a NAZI air force. The Luftwaffe was the German Air Force, which happened to be under the command of Hermann Goering during WWII. IIRC, party membership was not allowed if you were in the military.

I have seen documentaries about Luftwaffe personnel rescuing Allied pilots from Buchenwald after they were illegally interned there by the Gestapo. There were a lot of honorable men who served with distinction in the Lufwaffe and the German military in general.

You cheapen the service of all WWII vets by disparaging their service. The war is over and Germany is our friend.

You may also want to keep in mind that the Allies have plenty of blood on their hands when it comes to bombing civilian targets... just saying...

Both my Grandmother and Grandfather served in the German Army during WWII. They both served with honor and helped defecting German soldiers and Jews escape during the war. Not every soldier who fought in the German Army was a Nazi. Given the current American public educational system, I can forgive you (Veracity) your ignorance.

Posted: 12/22/2009 6:59:21 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
I think there is quite the double standard in the praise for this guy...maybe it's just because enough time has past, I don't know.

In 50 years will ARFCOM be praising the Somalians that shot down the Blackhawks (as long as they didn't drag the bodies) or praising the guys that planted bombs under the road that have caused US soldiers to burn to death....

IMO fuck those guys, and fuck this guy that fought for the Nazis and killed more people than most Nazis but wasn't a Nazi. I can see how it may have been important to let this guy be a part of the West German Luftwaffe with the whole Soviet threat and all but we shouldn't be all up on his nuts like this.

He could have been a mediocre pilot on purpose and not killed so many Allies (minus the Soviets) "But, but, he was just fighting for his country, heritage, etc...." I'm sure that's what many Taliban, AQI, etc believe aswell. That doesn't mean I'm going to be giving an eBlowjob to or giving the eulogy at the most successful Baghdad Sniper's or Sunni Triangle IED Triggerman's funderals.

/rant

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think it's rather weak to compare a professional military aviator and military officer to some shitbag terrorist who can barely figure out which end of his AK is supposed to be pointed at his enemy.

You have to remember that these guys by and large were NOT fighting for Hitler. They were fighting for and in defense of their homeland. Are you going to tell me you would let yourself be shot down when your home was being invaded?

I fucking hate the NAZI party and despise the horrific crimes committed by the Third Reich. It's still wrong, IN MY OPINION, to shit on the sacrifices made by so many of Germany's best and brightest during that time.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:02:07 PM EDT

[#35]

The world is a little bit sadder place without these heroes in it anymore. It's a sad thing to watch the passing of the WWII generation...

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:04:41 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I fucking hate the NAZI party and despise the horrific crimes committed by the Third Reich. It's still wrong, IN MY OPINION, to shit on the sacrifices made by so many of Germany's best and brightest during that time.

That's the greatest tragedy of war. A nation sends their best and brightest to fight a neighboring nation's best and brightest. Both countries end up with their best and brightest killing each other and governed by those devious enough to manipulate the honorable intentions of the best and brightest into war. It's a very vicious circle. That is the singular reason I am not a fan of war. I much prefer the threat of violence and the deterrence of that threat to actual war for that reason.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:05:16 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
The world is a little bit sadder place without these heroes in it anymore. It's a sad thing to watch the passing of the WWII generation...

There are just as many heroes in today's generation. Eventually, the stories will be told.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:08:59 PM EDT

[#38]

A good man and a damn good pilot

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:09:04 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The world is a little bit sadder place without these heroes in it anymore. It's a sad thing to watch the passing of the WWII generation...

There are just as many heroes in today's generation. Eventually, the stories will be told.

Couldn't agree more... with both of your posts...

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:13:23 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I think there is quite the double standard in the praise for this guy...maybe it's just because enough time has past, I don't know.

/rant

Its about respecting a warrior of exceptional skill not his country's ideologies.

Nobody here will praise hajji or the idiots in Somalia with RPGs. Anyone could do what they do/did.

What this man did was almost unprecedented and unsurpassed.

I have no respect for anyone who served Hitler. I will concede that he was good at what he did. Unfortunately, that was shooting down our guys.

What about those that serve the Chosen One right now?

Many of the Germans didn't agree with Hitler.

Are we not slipping into that same situation today?

Let's not bring logic and truth into GD.

The man was a warrior and excelled at what he did during a very close combat time in air warfare.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:25:32 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Hitler sent all of the paragraphs to Bergen-Belsen where they were gassed.

LOL!

That's why I love Arfcom. You can go from deadly serious to hilarious one-liner wiseass remark from one post to the next.

John

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:29:01 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

This is the only thing that was going through my mind.

Let's not forget.

Jesus Christ guys... he fought for his country. Why can't you honor his service in spite of the political shitbags in his chain of command?

I'm not aware of a NAZI air force. The Luftwaffe was the German Air Force, which happened to be under the command of Hermann Goering during WWII. IIRC, party membership was not allowed if you were in the military.

I have seen documentaries about Luftwaffe personnel rescuing Allied pilots from Buchenwald after they were illegally interned there by the Gestapo. There were a lot of honorable men who served with distinction in the Lufwaffe and the German military in general.

You cheapen the service of all WWII vets by disparaging their service. The war is over and Germany is our friend.

You may also want to keep in mind that the Allies have plenty of blood on their hands when it comes to bombing civilian targets... just saying...

Both my Grandmother and Grandfather served in the German Army during WWII. They both served with honor and helped defecting German soldiers and Jews escape during the war. Not every soldier who fought in the German Army was a Nazi. Given the current American public educational system, I can forgive you (Veracity) your ignorance.

Guys, I've read just about every WWII fighter pilot bio ever written...Hartmann, Sakai, Galland, Johnson, Tuck, etc. I myself am a pilot. I respect their abilities....I just have no love for them, that's all.

Yes, everybody was fighting for their country...but some countries were aggressor nations and some were not. I always had a bad feeling whenever I read the accounts of foreign fighter pilots shooting down US aircraft. Those were our countrymen––kids who came from our home towns––who would never go home again.

I believe Galland's bio talks about how in May '45––when the war was days from ending––the attitude of the German pilots was that they wanted to get airborne and kill as many Americans as they could before it was over. Understandable? Maybe. But by then, they all should have known the score and perhaps viewed the war's end differently. I'm gonna get flamed for that one.

Respect, yes. Admire? Hmmmmm........

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:31:59 PM EDT

[#43]

Had the opportunity to meet him. Great man and not a Nazi.

Godspeed.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:39:13 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

This is the only thing that was going through my mind.

Let's not forget.

Jesus Christ guys... he fought for his country. Why can't you honor his service in spite of the political shitbags in his chain of command?

I'm not aware of a NAZI air force. The Luftwaffe was the German Air Force, which happened to be under the command of Hermann Goering during WWII. IIRC, party membership was not allowed if you were in the military.

I have seen documentaries about Luftwaffe personnel rescuing Allied pilots from Buchenwald after they were illegally interned there by the Gestapo. There were a lot of honorable men who served with distinction in the Lufwaffe and the German military in general.

You cheapen the service of all WWII vets by disparaging their service. The war is over and Germany is our friend.

You may also want to keep in mind that the Allies have plenty of blood on their hands when it comes to bombing civilian targets... just saying...

Both my Grandmother and Grandfather served in the German Army during WWII. They both served with honor and helped defecting German soldiers and Jews escape during the war. Not every soldier who fought in the German Army was a Nazi. Given the current American public educational system, I can forgive you (Veracity) your ignorance.

Guys, I've read just about every WWII fighter pilot bio ever written...Hartmann, Sakai, Galland, Johnson, Tuck, etc. I myself am a pilot. I respect their abilities....I just have no love for them, that's all.

Yes, everybody was fighting for their country...but some countries were aggressor nations and some were not. I always had a bad feeling whenever I read the accounts of foreign fighter pilots shooting down US aircraft. Those were our countrymen––kids who came from our home towns––who would never go home again.

I believe Galland's bio talks about how in May '45––when the war was days from ending––the attitude of the German pilots was that they wanted to get airborne and kill as many Americans as they could before it was over. Understandable? Maybe. But by then, they all should have known the score and perhaps viewed the war's end differently. I'm gonna get flamed for that one.

Respect, yes. Admire? Hmmmmm........

I won't flame you for your comments because you are correct. But... I will say it's not a lot different than the kids who came to Europe in April of 45 chomping at the bit to get in on the "nazi killin" while they still could.

You are talking about young men who feel like they are either being swept up by history that felt it was passing them by.

Remember also that all the guys our pilots shot down also came from hometowns. Just sayin...

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:42:12 PM EDT

[#45]

"Yes, everybody was fighting for their country...but some countries were aggressor nations and some were not. I always had a bad feeling whenever I read the accounts of foreign fighter pilots shooting down US aircraft. Those were our countrymen––kids who came from our home towns––who would never go home again."

Yes, my family also fought against the Japs and the 3rd Reich. Some died and I am very glad for their sacrifice and our victory; but I can also admire their (Germans) skill and beliefs (I am married to one (Jewish)). Gunther Rall, Adolf Galland and many others didn't adhere to the beliefs of the Nazis. If you can search history, you'll find that many of them defected, refused to fight, rebelled and tried to surrender. All of them weren't monsters.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:42:48 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
I won't flame you for your comments because you are correct. But... I will say it's not a lot different than the kids who came to Europe in April of 45 chomping at the bit to get in on the "nazi killin" while they still could.

You are talking about young men who feel like they are either being swept up by history that felt it was passing them by.

Remember also that all the guys our pilots shot down also came from hometowns. Just sayin...

Soldiers, sailors and pilots from any nation are not all that different from each other - even if we come from VERY different cultural backgrounds. Conversely, every culture has multiple examples of thuggish behavior.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:53:24 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

I think there is quite the double standard in the praise for this guy...maybe it's just because enough time has past, I don't know.
In 50 years will ARFCOM be praising the Somalians that shot down the Blackhawks (as long as they didn't drag the bodies) or praising the guys that planted bombs under the road that have caused US soldiers to burn to death....
IMO fuck those guys, and fuck this guy that fought for the Nazis and killed more people than most Nazis but wasn't a Nazi. I can see how it may have been important to let this guy be a part of the West German Luftwaffe with the whole Soviet threat and all but we shouldn't be all up on his nuts like this.
He could have been a mediocre pilot on purpose and not killed so many Allies (minus the Soviets) "But, but, he was just fighting for his country, heritage, etc...." I'm sure that's what many Taliban, AQI, etc believe aswell. That doesn't mean I'm going to be giving an eBlowjob to or giving the eulogy at the most successful Baghdad Sniper's or Sunni Triangle IED Triggerman's funderals.
/rant

There is a big difference between a man in uniform fighting honorably for his nation and a cowardly terrorist that hides among civilians.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:56:13 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mike Wooten sketched this likeness of Gunther Rall: http://www.militarytour.com/BooksArt/Art/Wooten/MajorRal.htm

Mike gave me an autographed copy in exchange for borrowing one of my ARs.

Nice!!!

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/eodtech2000/MajorR85.jpg

That's it! I have #227.

Years ago I actually met some old Luftwaffe pilots. Most of them were highly respected by our pilots. When Goerring ordered them to shoot our pilots after they'd bailed out, they refused. Adolf Galland was given a death sentence for refusing to pass on this order.

Galland was one hell of a leader and warrior, the Luftwaffe Fighter Corps were a reflection of him. When he was with JG 26, he was known for making sure Allied pilots who were shot down were captured by Luftwaffe personnel so they would be treated honorably and make sure those injured were cared for medically. They also gave "Birthday" parties to the downed pilots, a celebration that one cheated death, quite a few Allied pilots got shit-faced drunk with Galland and gang. Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff gave the same parties, they didn't even put a guard on one American P-38 pilot as they got him so drunk he couldn't even walk, they became dear friends after the war.

Posted: 12/22/2009 7:59:29 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mike Wooten sketched this likeness of Gunther Rall: http://www.militarytour.com/BooksArt/Art/Wooten/MajorRal.htm

Mike gave me an autographed copy in exchange for borrowing one of my ARs.

Nice!!!

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee46/eodtech2000/MajorR85.jpg

That's it! I have #227.

Years ago I actually met some old Luftwaffe pilots. Most of them were highly respected by our pilots. When Goerring ordered them to shoot our pilots after they'd bailed out, they refused. Adolf Galland was given a death sentence for refusing to pass on this order.

Galland was one hell of a leader and warrior, the Luftwaffe Fighter Corps were a reflection of him. When he was with JG 26, he was known for making sure Allied pilots who were shot down were captured by Luftwaffe personnel so they would be treated honorably and make sure those injured were cared for medically. They also gave "Birthday" parties to the downed pilots, a celebration that one cheated death, quite a few Allied pilots got shit-faced drunk with Galland and gang. Johannes "Macky" Steinhoff gave the same parties, they didn't even put a guard on one American P-38 pilot as they got him so drunk he couldn't even walk, they became dear friends after the war.

Don't expect people who have never served to "get it."

Posted: 12/23/2009 3:44:50 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:

May all the pilots he killed or folks he helped Nazi bombers kill RIP.

This is the only thing that was going through my mind.

Let's not forget.

Jesus Christ guys... he fought for his country. Why can't you honor his service in spite of the political shitbags in his chain of command?

I'm not aware of a NAZI air force. The Luftwaffe was the German Air Force, which happened to be under the command of Hermann Goering during WWII. IIRC, party membership was not allowed if you were in the military.

I have seen documentaries about Luftwaffe personnel rescuing Allied pilots from Buchenwald after they were illegally interned there by the Gestapo. There were a lot of honorable men who served with distinction in the Lufwaffe and the German military in general.

You cheapen the service of all WWII vets by disparaging their service. The war is over and Germany is our friend.

You may also want to keep in mind that the Allies have plenty of blood on their hands when it comes to bombing civilian targets... just saying...

There seems to be some lack of reading comprehension amongst the "intelligent" folks in this thread. What part of my statement is a lie. Did he kill other pilots, did he protect bombers that were delivering ordinance on behalf of the Nazi party? I never called Rall a Nazis.

I know all about Rall, respect his abilities as a fighter pilot. My comment was meant as it was said. May all the pilots he killed and the folks killed by the Nazi bombers he protected rest in peace. If Rall had the Honor you all jump to defend then I'm sure he felt the same way. I've BTDT 3 times, not as pilot but as 0317. I pray for those whose lives I changed for the worse as well. By wishing the same for him I was doing him a favor.

For the part you wrote that I highlighted in red

. You say I cheapen the service of our WWII vets by my comment then followed up with your comment about our WWII vets having blood on their hands........Really, are you that stupid?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gunther Rall - 3rd highest scoring ace passes away (Page 1 of 2)

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