What they said...

But...but...Colt...colts are blameless, holy creatures

Just kidding. Glad you're okay too...hopefully someone steps up and fixes the problem. Even if the Remington ammo is at fault, people around here treating it like it's absolute suicide is kinda nuts. I'm sure due to availability Remington ammo is some of the most used out there...and yet the ERs around the nation are not filled with victims of this vile umc plague. Same with people treating olys and bushmasters like sure fire kaboom machines...they may not be the be but i think the attitudes against them are a bit overblown. Sure Remington ammo has failures, and cheaper Ars  have failures...but so do colts as we see now...machines can ALWAYS fail, even "top tier" machines.

Again tho, glad you're okay...that's the most important thing here.

i shot 260 rds of 2 different types of remington the other day and my RRA did great. umc white and green box and then the green and yellow boxes. umc was hollow points i think both did great

Back during the election Rem was about the only thing I could find other than  Wolf for my son's AR, so I bought 1,000 rounds.

Out of that 1,000, probably 600 were fine. Out of the other 400, there was case necks that were bent, projectiles seated way off center, projectiles seated past the ogive, loose projectiles, backwards and sideways primers etc.

Of the rest of that lot that looked ok, a great deal of them that felt seated tightly, experienced bullet setback after being chambered.

I wound up actually using a inertia bullet pulling hammer and breaking down a couple of hundred and weighing the charges, ( they weren't very consistent, but not dangerously so in my case), and loading them back up, and crimping them. We still have two boxes that have been sitting on the shelf. When we get low, we look at them and say, they heck with that, let's buy some more Federal or load some more hand loads. They are there I suppose just in case it's the last ammo available.

Really glad you're ok, OP!

Shouldn't this be in the ammo forum?

If you hadn't posted the pictures I wouldn't have believed it.  Colts are indestructible don't 'cha know.  They are mil-spec.  Glad to see you are ok but sorry you crashed a rifle.

I hate reading KB threads, but they are very heplful.  Thanks for the post OP.  Glad you're OK.  Enjoy the holiday!

I concur I use the federal 100 rd box from walmart or American Eagle black box for cheap 55gr ammo.  UMC never shot it in my stuff but see the poor accuracy and under powered ammo go through friends stuff.

I figured I would receive that "bandwith exceeded" message at some point last night.

And I didnt post this in the ammo forum because I wanted advice on the rifle, like what parts to replace and what the broken part was

I've been shooting and handloading for over 50 years and I've never heard of a case head separation with factory loaded ammunition of any kind being fired for the first time. I can't see the pics, but from what you and another poster said, I'm gathering that what you had was a case head separation.

A case head separation happens after one or more reloadings of a case. It happens because of excessive headspace in the firearm that the case is fired from between reloadings. This is how it happens. The case expands during firing, and grips the walls of the chamber very tightly. However, the rear of the case, the head, where the web is does not expand as it is thicker graduated to solid in the very head where the primer pocket is. if the headspace is too excessive the case head is pushed back more than it will rebound while the rest of the case does not move. This leaves a thinned ring of metal just forward of the web. When the case is resized the shoulder is pushed back to normal case dimensions but the thin, weaker, ring remains. It is not visible as an indentation from the outside as the pressure forces what is left outward against the chamber wall. When the case is fired again the same thing happens, leaving the weaker ring even thinner and weaker. Eventually it just breaks and you have a case head separation.

There are two ways to check if a case has an incipient case head separation (problem developing but no kaboom yet). While there is no indented ring on the outside of the case, there tends to be a brighter colored ring due to the stretching. An experienced eye can pick this up, although it can be hard to distinguish this from the slightly greater wear that can occur with full length resizing in that area, as that is usually the part of the case that expands the most, and is therefore reduced the most. The sure way to tell is to pull a few bullets and check the inside of the case by feel. Make a tool to do this by putting a short 90 degree bend in a small piece of wire, like a small paper clip. Round or sharpen the end. Then stick it in the case with the point to the outside, and run it back and forth in the area near the case head but forward of the web, pressing lightly to the outside. If there is an indented ring (weak spot) you will feel the point of the wire drop into it.

I am writing all this because I suspect that your neighbor gave you handloads, at least one of which had an incipient case head separation, which is an accident going somewhere to happen. If it were me, I would want to know one way or the other.

As an afterthought, I just did a Google Image search on "incipient case head separation" and got lots of good pictures of what to look for, including one image with such a case cut lengthwise so you can see exactly what it looks like from the inside, and several images of the bright ring you can sometimes see from the outside.

it separated as it would in a bolt gun right where the bolt meets the chamber.

With reloading separations I've read they happen about 1/3 up.

This case head failed OP you should just save your pics with a different file name and repost them so people can see.

Yes, I really would like to see pictures of that. I've got about 100 Rem/UMC rounds left and a couple of hundred cases I was planning to reload. I don't want to throw any of this away. If I could see the pictures I'd have a better idea of what might have happened. Remington is a brand name, and I've handloaded thousands of their cases in many calibers and never had a problem.

Colt or mil-spec are not BOMB PROOF, get it through your head !! do you think tanks are indestructible?

Right click on the pic icon, select properties, copy (URL) address and paste to the address bar, works for me.

OP, sorry about your nasty mishap, glad you're OK.

Great tip! Thanks.

I appreciate your input.  What ammo do you suggest we shoot?

1. If that G96 got into the chamber and bore it can cause a over pressure condition.
2. The rear of the case shows that the brass flowed back into the bolt face at the ejector and this indicates extreamly high chamber pressure and why the cartridge case failed.
3. There are two possibilities,
(A) oil got in the chamber and bore and caused the excessivly high chamber pressure.
(B) the cartridge was overloaded and caused the over pressure failure.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/boltthrust.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oil-lube.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oilcover.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oilinchamber.jpg

Didn't work for me. Still get the "Bandwidth Exceeded" icon.

The Rem/UMC ammo I have doesn't show any sign of poor QC. I guess I'll shoot it up, cut a few cases open and see what I see. If it all looks OK I'll figure they're fine. The Rem/UMC actually seems more consistent than the LC 11 green tips I got.

I thought Lake City and Hornady have/had a great reputation?!?!?  What's the best .223 and 5.56.  I just bought a 1000 rounds of Federal 55 grain 5.56, because the price was pretty good.  However, after buying it, I heard that this ammo is actually Lake City and was just purchased and boxed by Federal.  Anyone else heard this rumor?  So what IS the best ammo?  I just bought a Daniel Defense M4 Carbine V5 and don't wa t to take any chances.  I know that there are never any guarantees, but you can at least improve your odds by using high quality ammo.  BTW, some manufacturers will void your warranty if they find evidence that Wolf (and a couple of other brands) were used.  I don't know how they could find out, but I know for a fact that this is the written policy of some companies.

all i shoot is Federal Lake City XM193 and have never had a single issue. it's great ammo!

I thought Lake City and Hornady have/had a great reputation?!?!?  What's the best .223 and 5.56.  I just bought a 1000 rounds of Federal 55 grain 5.56, because the price was pretty good.  However, after buying it, I heard that this ammo is actually Lake City and was just purchased and boxed by Federal.  Anyone else heard this rumor?  So what IS the best ammo?  I just bought a Daniel Defense M4 Carbine V5 and don't wa t to take any chances.  I know that there are never any guarantees, but you can at least improve your odds by using high quality ammo.  BTW, some manufacturers will void your warranty if they find evidence that Wolf (and a couple of other brands) were used.  I don't know how they could find out, but I know for a fact that this is the written policy of some companies.

I thought Lake City and Hornady have/had a great reputation?!?!?  What's the best .223 and 5.56.  I just bought a 1000 rounds of Federal 55 grain 5.56, because the price was pretty good.  However, after buying it, I heard that this ammo is actually Lake City and was just purchased and boxed by Federal.  Anyone else heard this rumor?  So what IS the best ammo?  I just bought a Daniel Defense M4 Carbine V5 and don't wa t to take any chances.  I know that there are never any guarantees, but you can at least improve your odds by using high quality ammo.  BTW, some manufacturers will void your warranty if they find evidence that Wolf (and a couple of other brands) were used.  I don't know how they could find out, but I know for a fact that this is the written policy of some companies.

I thought Lake City and Hornady have/had a great reputation?!?!?  What's the best .223 and 5.56.  I just bought a 1000 rounds of Federal 55 grain 5.56, because the price was pretty good.  However, after buying it, I heard that this ammo is actually Lake City and was just purchased and boxed by Federal.  Anyone else heard this rumor?  So what IS the best ammo?  I just bought a Daniel Defense M4 Carbine V5 and don't wa t to take any chances.  I know that there are never any guarantees, but you can at least improve your odds by using high quality ammo.  BTW, some manufacturers will void your warranty if they find evidence that Wolf (and a couple of other brands) were used.  I don't know how they could find out, but I know for a fact that this is the written policy of some companies.

From the Federal website: "XM193 product is first run, first quality product manufactured at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant for Federal Cartridge and is made to Federal specifications typical for commercial ammunition.

• All XM193 product is the same regardless of the sku or part number. (ie. XM193C is the same as XM193F, XM193CBP and etc…) The only difference is the package configuration."

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx

Just paid for a month of photobucket pro so you should be able to see the pics.

I sprayed lube w the bolt closed so I can't see how it would be that thick in the barrel....I will have to see if they look to have a ring. Any other way of picking out reloads

That is a LOT of pressure.  Look at how the brass flowed around and into the ejector hole!  I doubt there is enough empty space in a .223 case for an overcharge significant enough to cause the pressure shown there.  I would bet a weak crimp at the case mouth, combined with some mismatched m4 feedramps, caused extreme bullet setback upon the bullet tip riding up the ramp and catching on the bottom lip of the extension's ramp.  It even looks like your ramps are poorly matched in the pics.  That is why I personally smooth and fit ALL of my uppers' ramps that have the m4 style ramps cut into them.  I have had to remove sharp catch points on the m4 ramps of at least 4 of my "top tier" carbines over the years.  This is truly an area that is unfortuneately often overlooked by even the top companies.  Not sure why, just look at what can happen!  CHECK YOUR FEEDRAMPS FOR SHARP CATCH POINTS.  If you cant smoothly slide the pokey end of a straightened paperclip up each ramp without it catching, it needs smoothing or you are asking for trouble.

I'd at least take it to remington. That is an ammo issue. Hard to blame something like that on the gun.

This was on over pressure situation.

I would bet the bullet got pushed back into the case when it was fired it exploded.

I've seen this happen on .308 reloads. Always crimp .308 for Semi auto. I usually don't crimp .556 because I've never had a setback issue.

UMC is really soft and I bet they don't crimp it very well. The best way to test for this is to take some of the unfired rounds and try to push the bullets into the case

by pressing them against a counter top or something. If you do find a few that slip back easily Remington will want to know that info plus the lot # and I guarentee they will

recall a shitpile of that stuff. Firing a round with the bullet pushed back in the case caused this I am willing to bet.

Oh and film/video the process of pushing the rounds...

Just now able to see the pics. Wow, that's some pretty crappy feed ramps for a Colt. Some one needed to take a dremel to those!

Glad you didn't get hurt, OP.

.
.

That's a case head failure. The case came apart and the gases blew down the mag well. That's why I like steel magazines, as I feel you are better protected if it would ever happen. I also never hold the magazine while shooting, for the same reasons.

Where these reloads?

I'd contact Remington, they would like to check this lot of ammo.

Thank God and Colt for a strong rifle. That barrel needs to be inspected. Thanks for the pictures as I just got to this thread.

All true.

In this instance the case was stuck in the chamber while the head separated, which is not what I would expect with a lubricated chamber. I believe this points to the internal pressure in the case being excessive.

Unless the steel mag blows apart, in which case the hand would have been seriously injured.

This is not a head sep in the traditional sense. Brass flows into the extractor cut, the gap between bolt and chamber faces, and across the bolt face itself. The blowout generally occurs at the extractor cut. It takes over 90k PSI to make brass flow that much, indicating this was faulty ammunition.





Can bullet setback cause this kind of pressure increase in a hot rifle load? I'm not so sure of that. I do know that set back in pistol loads really doesn't pose much of a risk.

 

most important thing is OP is OK. do colt sporters come chambered in .223? i see that what the lower is marked. are we dealing with 5.56 ammo here?



my advice would normally be to send it back to colt so they can determine it was ammo related and send the repair bill to remington. of coarse with no box/lot number your likely SOL. maybe if you threaten to not buy any more of there crap ammo they will fix your rifle...

but seriously that thing looks like a double charge or something. could it be your buddy/neighbor really knew they where reloads and why they where bulk packed? if thats the case maybe hes not as good a buddy as you thought. of couse a little banter to trigger his reaction could be very revealing.

MattR - Thank you for springing the bucks so that all of us could see the pictures.

Obviously this was not an incipient case head separation as I had speculated. It was indeed a huge excess pressure situation, as everyone else has said.

Possible causes:  

        Too much powder: Not likely in an original factory load. Ideally the powder should fill or nearly fill the case capacity for uniform performance, and
        folks like Remington will select powders that will do this. That being the case, it would not be possible to double charge the powder. A couple of
        grains over would not cause the kind of pressure that caused your event. You might see signs of excess pressure in examining the primer, but not
        a kaboom. Now, if these were handloads, the person doing it might have used a powder that would allow a double charge to fit in the case. So, again,
        I'm thinking handloads.

       Bullet pushed back into the case, as suggested above. I'm a bit skeptical about this one. I just took a sample of Remington UMC .223 ammo and tried
       to push the bullets back. I used a lot of force. They didn't budge. More to the point, unless you pushed the bullet so far back that it jammed in the case
       neck, I don't think the pressure increase, while substantial, would cause the catastrophic failure you had. Again, you might  see pressure signs by
       reading the primers, but a kaboom, I doubt it. Yes, pushing the bullet back will decrease effective interior case volume, which will increase pressure
       with the same load - but not the kind of massive increase that it would take to cause what happened to you.

       As an aside, I have been handloading some Sierra 63 grain bullets that have no crimping groove, and I don't have a taper crimp die. I have been relying
       on neck tension. I just tested those by trying to push the bullets back in the cases. In this case I could do it, but it took a lot of force. These were once
       reloaded Remington cases. I've shot about 200 of these with no problem, and no readable pressure signs. I just also checked the feed ramps on my
       Windham Weaponry MPC, and they are smooth as a baby's bottom. If I tried to shoot my uncrimped loads though your Colt, with its rougher feed ramps,
       I might see some pressure increase. But I still doubt that that in itself would cause a catastrophic failure.

I'm still left suspecting faulty handloads.

Again, thank you for reposting the pictures so that we all could see them. They give much food for thought, and caused me to check a couple of things that
I might not otherwise have done. Glad you weren't hurt.

As to the cause, we're all speculating. No one will probably ever know. I would take apart a good sampling of the rest of that lot of ammo. See if the powder
comes close to filling the case - see what kind of powder it is - ball, extruded, flake, what? Ask Remington what they use or have used. You might get some insight
by doing that.

It was .223 ammo, I did think it was weird that the rifle is not marked for 5.56 but I rarely use the rifle so I didnt really worry about it.

And the guy that I got the ammo from is like a grandfather to me. He would have no reason to lie, and like i said...ive shot a ton of these rounds w no problems in my RRAA, its odd for out of nowhere the first round shot in this rifle to blow.

The chambers is 5.56mm. Look at the stamp on the barrel, and ignore the .223 in the roll mark (unless your barrel says .223, which I've never seen a Colt with a .223 chamber).



Colt had some goofy roll marks, and I never understood the whole .223 marks when the barrel states 5.56.



Glad to see you're ok. Are you planning on calling the ammo manufacturer and/or Colt?



 

probably not. If I was 100% sure on the ammo, definately. But due to the fact that I really do not know for sure that the ammo was new, it leaves me little to no ground to stand on.

If yall feel that I should send it in, let me know. I have never dealt with anything like this before?

Do you know anyone in your area that is an experienced and reliable handloader? Such a person could pull some of the bullets, see what kind of powder is in them and how much, check primer pockets, look the cases over with a trained eye, and give you a good idea if the ammo is reloads or not. Also, not mentioned before, cases grow with repeated firing and reloading. If they get too long there won't be enough space in the neck portion of the chamber for the case mouth to release the bullet, and that can be catastrophic. A reloader could measure case length to see if it's way out of spec. What I am saying is that someone you trust who has experience in this area could give you a lot of insight. I am sure there are such people in your local gun club that would help, even if you are not a member.

Federal = Lake City

As stated above, without an ammo lot number and with the possibility of reloads mixed into your ammo supply, you're probably SOL for a no charge replacement.
You could contact Colt and see what they say in regards to inspecting/repairing the weapon.

Ya.... BULLSHIT.

Sorry, but that is not how it works. Even when I run 500 rounds of Wolf thru a rifle, it will chew thru any brass case afterwards without issue.

This was a bad round, a defect. Glad to see the OP is relatively unscathed. You will need a case extractor, probably a good deal of work to get it out. Afterwards, new parts- new BCG. I would inspect the bore after the case is cleared and have it polished.

Maybe test it with some big welding gloves for that first shakedown run.........

looking like 90%+ chance of a double charge reload. as was stated my next action would be to inspect the remaing rounds to see if they are indeed reloads but that does not fix your weapon and in anycase the remaining rounds should not be used.

best of luck. i think you will find closure here.

How do you double charge a .223 case when it's pretty full with just one charge?    Even a full charge of pistol powder most likely would've been more catastrophic than that.

pretty simple really.



"Now, if these were handloads, the person doing it might have used a powder that would allow a double charge to fit in the case. So, again,
I'm thinking handloads."

but i guess if you are not paying attention and are just looking to bust balls its a good opp. in case you missed it as well the one random round fits in nicely to the whole thing.



and one more thing while im here, im sorry to say that upper looks borked.

I was asking a question.

What powders used for .223 allow for a double charge?

i guess when he opens some up we will get a better idea.

I would not shoot that gun again until after it's inspected and repaired by Colt.  It doesn't appear to be a defect in the gun that caused the problem, BUT you want to make sure that it's repaired properly, OR retire it for good.  With any luck, Colt will cut you a break on the repairs, as a Customer Accomodation, and/or furnish you will a detail analysis of what the caused the problem.

Then, you can contact Remington about sendng the remaining ammo to them for analysus, along with the written detail analysis of the gun failure/damage from Colt and see what they say.  If the ammo turns out to be reloads, Remington will tell you that, and can dispose of the remaining rounds.  If the ammo turns out to be defective factory rounds, Remington will replace it, and probably pay for the repairs of the gun in full.

Either way, you have nothing to lose by contacting Colt and Remington.

Who says an idiot handloader would use powders intended for .223? People do all kinds of strange things.

Back in the day it was quite accepted practice to use a very fast pistol powder like Bullseye in very small quantities in rifle cartridges, filing the rest of the case with Kapoc or corn meal or cream of wheat or whatever. The idea was to get a "squib", or very mild load for short range practice. I used to load about 17 grains of 4198 into 6mm Remington cases, giving ballistics about like a .22 Long Rifle. Never had a problem with it, but I did have to be careful not to double charge a case.

I'm pretty sure some idiot could get enough Bullseye into a .223 case to take a rifle apart.

You know, it just occurred to me that it would be very easy to determine whether the loads in question are factory or reloads. Just pull the bullets. A never fired case (factory load) is brass colored on the inside. Even a once fired case will be lined with soot or carbon or whatever - it'll be black, or at least show signs that combustion has happened inside.