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Other comparisons
All of the following photos will show from left to right; Mega, Stag, LAR, Barrett and/or LMT: Notice the lack of a charging handle bevel on the Barrett/LMT Notice the difference between the LMT and the larger mag well bevel of the Barrett (far right): Trigger well forge flash clearly visible on the Barrett and LMT: Links to the manufacturers: LMT = Lewis Machine and Tool www.lewismachine.net CMT= Continental Machine and Tool www.continentalmachinetool.com www.stagarms.com (an individual corporation that was started by CMT) LAR = some combination of the original owner's last initials www.larmanufacturing.com www.largrizzly.com MMS=Mega Machine Shop www.megamachineshop.com (new) JVP=JV Precision jvprecision.net Superior Arms www.superiorarms.com If there are any corrections, or requests for pics/comparisons of angles I have not yet posted, please PM me. |
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I'm done for now... I'll update it with some more in a few days if there is interest...
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Great post. I appreciate the time and effort you invested in preparing this factual, informative post.
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MGI Military:The Future of Small Arms Development
TN, USA
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Update for your list showing MGI Modular Lowers as CMT built lowers.
MGI only made the initial short production run at CMT. All subsequent lowers have been machined from billet 7075-T6 with Type III Hard Anodize. They look like this: Photos from the first billet production run in Sept '06. Since these photos were taken, some minor changes to clean up a few areas on the surfaces and contours have taken place, for improved appearance. We will be producing 7075-T6 forged MGI Modular Lowers beginning in the near future, adding this to our product line, and billet types will still be available. Custom forgings made on our specific forging dies are coming from Cerro Forge, one of the major suppliers of raw forgings for AR receivers. If there is any reason that you might not want this post included in your thread, just let me know, and I'll delete it. |
MGI Sales Representative for AR15.com, and the internet
Call 1-423-746-9019 or email [email protected] CALL ME TO ORDER YOUR MGI PRODUCTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Very Nice
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YHVH
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Anyways, all the lowers out there with the exception of Hesse/Vulcan all function the same and are all equally fine for an AR build.
This thread is only here to show the most frivolous final machining details which do not affect function or durability.
Thanks for the correction Tom... Done. |
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excellent post
Now if they will just read it instead of asking 50 times a day "who makes the best" Mike |
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This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is MINE
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. |
Fantastic!
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A socialist may indeed be academically superior,
And yet, most certainly, emotionally retarded… myitinaw 2006 |
Nice write up.
One question - Have you ever seen any proof that CMT mills Colt lowers? I know it has been long assumed that they do but I've personally never seen any evidence of it. I ask not because I don't believe it's possible but because as you seem to note, the main 4 shops seem to have their own "tells" in the way that they are milled\finished. Having both a Colt LE lower and known CMT lowers, I can tell you that the milling just doesn't match. One spot in particular (where the buffer tube "loop" comes down and meets up with the sides of the lower) they are clearly milled completely differently. I think people just like to assume CMT makes Colt lowers because of the proximity of the 2 companies and I think it's fair to say that CMT does supply at least some parts to Colt. I just don't believe lowers are one of those parts. If anybody has proof to the contrary, I would love to see it |
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Disclaimer:
My comments above are worth what you paid for them. My posts often contain poor grammar and spelling and may be edited. There is no telling what state of mind I was in when I wrote this or even if I had a state of mind at the |
Nice write up and pics.
Sorry, if I missed it - but do you know which ones do/don't take an RDIAS ? thanks! |
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Please Surf Our Brand New Website !
www.bravocompanyusa.com Toll Free: 1 - 877 - BRAVO CO (1 -877 - 272 - 8626) CAGE Code: 342X6 Semper Fi ! |
the LAR ones do but not the STAGs. |
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Colt mills their own.
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No, I have never seen proof. Apparently there were a few, who I would assume, reputable posts stating that they have personally seen Colt rollmark dies are stored at the CMT factory. I only included it because the information provided seemed credible, but also why I labeled Colt under CMT with the note... (some?). I personally don't know. When comparing the one example of Colt that I have, it is apparent that the machining and forging are both different than the other manufacturers (which could just be because my Colt CAR-A3 is nearly 8 years old and these receivers are recent production). This could account for both machining and forge suppliers changing over time. It's not hard to imagine though, when Colt received a large contract order to fill that some of the parts, possibly including the milling of receivers has been outsourced. Of course, there is no solid proof of this though. Anyways, this isn't a really substantial post, at least concerning specs and adherence to them. It's just a superficial rundown of finish machining and should be taken into consideration as such. |
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Thanks for the reply. I can see where you are coming from. I don't doubt that Colt has had to sub out at times when orders are majorly back-logged but I'm going to guess and say that would relate mostly to Military orders (i.e. M16 or M4). Not that I've seen a ton of them but none of the Colt AR15 lowers I've seen have resembled the CMT lowers I've seen. That coupled with the fact that Colt doesn't seem overly worried about getting LE rifles out the door leads me to believe that at minimum all of their Civilian\LE lowers are made in house. Who knows? |
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Disclaimer:
My comments above are worth what you paid for them. My posts often contain poor grammar and spelling and may be edited. There is no telling what state of mind I was in when I wrote this or even if I had a state of mind at the |
+1 |
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Thanks for the great post, it answered a lot of my questions
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Thanks for doing this. It's a great reference & saves me from having to ask, "who makes .... lowers?"
Great post! |
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think for yourself... question authority...
IA, USA
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great post. very informative and it helps answer many questions i have asked without responses.
is there something like this that exists for barrel blanks manufacturers and those folks with make the LPK's and bolts/carriers? that would really help put it all in perspective. thanks, ST13 |
"This thing kicks harder than your 7..." - muttered by killarbb 3-18-07
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Wow, great post xenophobe. Very informative.
I didn't know you were on here too. |
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Great Post!!
LMT = LMT, Lauer(old), DS Arms, PWA, Eagle, Knights Armament, Barrett, Bushmaster (?) Question: so who makes Bushmaster lowers....Bushmaster or LMT? |
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Bolt carriers? B= Bushmaster, C= Colt, L= LMT... or is LMT marked H? I forget... I think DPMS are marked as well, not really sure. With bolt carriers, it doesn't really matter much, only that the gas keys are staked properly. Bolts? Colt are marked MPC, FN MPF, CMT is marked MPI, and others are marked... LMT are marked MP, if I remember correctly, though a few other bolts are marked MP as well, BCM, and a few others I'm sure.... As for the above, I honestly haven't paid as much attention, and very well could be remembering incorrectly... Someone will come along to correct me, I'm sure. So my apologies if I misstated something.
I'm not completely sure. I've never compared a Bushmaster to either of these. From what I understand, some of them were made by LMT, but I'm not sure if all of them have been. Many 'manufacturers' won't say who actually makes their receivers, and I haven't really looked into it too much, only relying on what I can physically examine and in the circumstances that I can't, or don't have detailed pictures to verify leave the (?) in the list. I live in California, so my access to any Bushmaster is limited to finding one to look at. They've been banned by name since 2000. |
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I dont really see the point because manufacturers switch where they get their raw lowers all the time. Sometimes from the same source sometimes from different sources. Therefore these things can change from batch to batch.
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Know anything about Sabre lowers?
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كافر
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Nice write up. Thanks.
Do you know where we one could get one of those LAR lowers with that type of rollmark? Unfortunately, LAR themselves do not have any. |
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Love detailed threads like this.
Understand that LMT machined both the early PWA and Eagle Arms lowers. A PWA and a Eagle lower from the same time period are very different. The Eagle being WAY better then the PWA. And say CMT machined Colt lowers (never seen any evidence of this) the Colt lowers are machined to different drawings then any other. In other words, don't matter who machined the part, what is important is what drawings are used, and how close they keep to them. |
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You forgot two billet manufacturers: Compass Lake Engineering (CLE) and Les Baer both make their own lowers.
Can you rate any of these lower recievers as far as how low the tolerances are? Quality control? |
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think for yourself... question authority...
IA, USA
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i agree. mil spec is mil spec. funny thing about it though... mil spec or not, made all in the same place or not, some are mystically higher in cost than others. to take it a step further, too many of us get sucked into which one is the "best" one of the group. some have subtle details, in terms of lower receiver build, but most are very comparable and shouldn't honestly lend themselves to a premium price over like or same LR's... hell of a note... it might be kind of neat to extrapolate who is made by who and associate their MSRP. or maybe we should leave well enough alone so we can all sleep well tonight... again, thanks for a great post and taking the time to compare! |
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"This thing kicks harder than your 7..." - muttered by killarbb 3-18-07
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My most recent lowers have been Doublestar & Stag. The Doublestar has a nice flat black finish and less flaws than the rouger charcoal grey Stag. I was able to hand select the best stag out of a lot of consecutive serial numbers and even the best stag in the bunch was not as nice as the less expensive doublestar.
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Nothing in this post should be considered information posted in an official capacity. It is the authors personal opinion alone.
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tag
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Even an empty threat deserves a response you won't soon forget
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think for yourself... question authority...
IA, USA
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it was my understanding that two entities in the country make all the raw forgings. everybody buys from them. as for billet fully machined lowers, i'm only aware of JP enterprises. CLE - i'm not sure, but i understood they were cut from forgings like nearly all the rest...
JP CTR02 |
"This thing kicks harder than your 7..." - muttered by killarbb 3-18-07
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Nice write up!
LMT making Bushy lowers makes a hell of a lot of sense....hence the reason why the both have purple anodizing on some of their stuff. |
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My How To on Multicamming your rifle!
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=139&t=565579&page=1 |
There are at least three raw lower forgings currently made. There are a number of billet receivers on the market now... JP CTR-02 SOCOM Diamond (out of business?) Sun Devil POF - 415/416 Gen 1 (no trigger guard), Gen 2 (integral winter guard), Gen 3(integral guard + ambi bolt release) Smith & Wesspon M&P-15PC 7.62x51 receivers POF - P-308 Gen 1 (winter trigger guard + ambi bolt release) DPMS Panther LR-308 Fulton FAR-308 (made by DMPS) Hesse HAR-10 (bleh... really crappy machining) MGI multi-caliber COBB multi-caliber Wishful thinking: Magpul (soon I hope) LaRue (people have been asking.... lol) Vltor (you never know...) LMT (very wishful thinking...) Not sure if RRA .308 will be forged or billet. |
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You sure about S&W? I thought they were CMT |
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كافر
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The Smith & Wesson Performance Center M&P-15PC is indeed a billet receiver. The rest of the S&W line are CMT cut forged receivers.
SKU: item_170293 Model: M&P15PC Caliber: 5.56 mm NATO / .223 Capacity: 10 Rounds Overall Length: 38.5" Stock: Full Length, Skeletonized Forend: Free-Floating Black Matte Anodized Barrel Length: 20" Barrel Twist: 1 in 8" Weight (No Mag): 7lbs., 13 oz. Trigger: 2-Stage Match Quality Upper Receiver: Billet Aluminum with Robust Geometry Lower Receiver: Billet Aluminum with Generous Magwell Chamfer Barrel Material: Stainless Steel Chromed Components: Bolt, Bolt Carrier, Bolt Carrier Key Receiver Finish: Hard Coat Black Anodized Barrel Finish: Matte Stainless Other Features: Soft-Lined Rifle Case with Mag. Pockets, Zippered Accessory Pouch http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=49902&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=33803 |
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Nice post. I always wanted to get a bunch of different brand and manufacture lowers and compare them.
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Not sure I would call the difference between a early 90's PWA and a early 90's Eagle lower a "variance". I mean one is real close and the other is made from a bum set of specs. |
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ahhhh...didn't see the "performance center" thingie.
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كافر
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Knowing how Colt quietly made their 3rd generation SAA revolvers out of Italian made parts assembled in the U.S. and still charged $1100+ when a Uberti was $300, I wouldn't put it past them to use about anyone's forgings. The Colt today, who has survived many bankruptcies and rebounded, isn't the Colt of 20 years ago. Unions want higher wages, CEO's want bigger bonuses. They do what they can to survive in today's patent-expiration AR market. Like one user said, most of the makers have the CNC machining down to a common artform and most are solid platforms to build upon. I've had a couple of DPMS lowers lately that seem as good as anything else I've owned. I'd like to have an LMT or CMMG, but I need barrels, betamags, ammo, sights and flattop uppers, not to mention any other AR part to replace at a latter date before the Communists try to take over our country. With Colt Diamondbacks approaching $1000 or more for a .38 or .22 revolver, you'd think they'd be cranking those out again with quality for $500 and making a killing. I want a nice quality .22/.22 mag conversion kit for my AR that holds 30 rds and has a magazine that looks like a beefy AR mag, not some slender p.o.s. like a familiar maker for $60 per mag. I'd like to see Advantage Arms do one.
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Registered Drop In Auto Sear |
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Great post. Ever thought about doing the uppers? I'm compiling a list of barrel manufactures AR15 and AR10.
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Added Noveske to the LAR section. Apparently his latest batch are not CMT cuts. :( Wish he would have gone to Mega instead. Oh well.
I have bushmaster pics that I'll be putting up in the next week or three.
No. There is a FAQ with upper receiver markings, and only in a few circumstances will you know who actually cut an upper, and that info is already here someplace. RRA, LMT, Noveske, Vltor, LaRue are marked by acid etching or engraving... Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite and a couple other are marked by forge marks. The others may or may not have forge marks, and generally aren't named. |
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xenophobe, do you know who is the manufacturer of Centermass Tactical "Calguns" lower?
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<img src=/images/smilies/anim_50cal.gif border=0 align=middle>
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I would like to mention something in regards to the Mega MMS receivers. Their finish is Anodized, but the reason the appearance is different is they use a combination of aluminum oxide and glass bead blasting for surface prep. Most other MFG's uses aluminum oxide only.
You'll notice the difference in the surface if you were to put a CMT upper on an MMS lower. |
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who makes DPMS?
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who makes DPMS?
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Hmmm....so am I to understand LMT made the old Coal Valley, IL Eagle Arms lowers?
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I was told by the dealer I bought my SD lower from that his contact at Sabre told him they make their own at their Nashville plant. You would think a sales rep would tell one of his dealers the truth. All I know is that it's a sweet lower. 10th post from the bottom www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=21&t=430976 |
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