User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 6:02:01 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I have an AR pistol built, It is too short for my liking. I would like a longer barrel, but my state seems a bit gray. I am thinking of just making it a rifle, if so, can I sell it as a rifle? Is there any other options? You still don't have an option that is legal listed. Once a pistol always a pistol. You may put a rifle barrel on a pistol and then put a stock on it. You may not put a stock on a pistol that has a pistol barrel on it. What you can get away with or not when you lie in court is not a determiner of what is lawful or unlawful. Just sell it as a pistol. Even if you don't have a pistol upper on it at the time sell it as a pistol. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 6:02:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: I have an AR pistol built, It is too short for my liking. I would like a longer barrel, but my state seems a bit gray. I am thinking of just making it a rifle, if so, can I sell it as a rifle? Is there any other options? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 6:12:36 PM EDT
[#3]
If you change it to a rifle, it's a rifle. Just don't create an SBR in the process of doing so.
You can sell it as is as a Title I pistol, or change it to a rifle and sell it as a Title I rifle. If there is some state requirements in your state then obviously you will have to comply with them as well. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 6:20:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. If you put a 16" barrel on it FIRST, you can then sell it as a rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have an AR pistol built, It is too short for my liking. I would like a longer barrel, but my state seems a bit gray. I am thinking of just making it a rifle, if so, can I sell it as a rifle? Is there any other options? Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. If you purchase a Glock pistol and buy one of those carbine conversion kits in Shotgun News you can not sell it as a rifle. It is still a pistol. You can use it as a rifle for hunting game because it will fall within the definition of a rifle in your local game laws. It will however still be a pistol according to the BATF. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 6:22:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have an AR pistol built, It is too short for my liking. I would like a longer barrel, but my state seems a bit gray. I am thinking of just making it a rifle, if so, can I sell it as a rifle? Is there any other options? Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. He meant put the barrel on before the stock so as to keep from making an unregistered SBR. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 6:22:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have an AR pistol built, It is too short for my liking. I would like a longer barrel, but my state seems a bit gray. I am thinking of just making it a rifle, if so, can I sell it as a rifle? Is there any other options? Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 6:51:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. If you purchase a Glock pistol and buy one of those carbine conversion kits in Shotgun News you can not sell it as a rifle. It is still a pistol. .... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have an AR pistol built, It is too short for my liking. I would like a longer barrel, but my state seems a bit gray. I am thinking of just making it a rifle, if so, can I sell it as a rifle? Is there any other options? Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. If you purchase a Glock pistol and buy one of those carbine conversion kits in Shotgun News you can not sell it as a rifle. It is still a pistol. .... Not so sure about that. You have indeed made a legal GCA rifle. Certainly if the short barrel doesn't go along with the sale as part of a kit, if you were transferring it through an FFL, I don't see how he could call it anything but a "long gun" and "rifle". It can't be a handgun with a barrel and stock on it. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:03:38 PM EDT
[#8]
if shouldering a sig brace makes a pistol into a rifle... FBATFE...
im sorry, i have nothing productive to say, didnt realize this wasnt GD |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:12:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not so sure about that. You have indeed made a legal GCA rifle. Certainly if the short barrel doesn't go along with the sale as part of a kit, if you were transferring it through an FFL, I don't see how he could call it anything but a "long gun" and "rifle". It can't be a handgun with a barrel and stock on it. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have an AR pistol built, It is too short for my liking. I would like a longer barrel, but my state seems a bit gray. I am thinking of just making it a rifle, if so, can I sell it as a rifle? Is there any other options? Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. If you purchase a Glock pistol and buy one of those carbine conversion kits in Shotgun News you can not sell it as a rifle. It is still a pistol. .... Not so sure about that. You have indeed made a legal GCA rifle. Certainly if the short barrel doesn't go along with the sale as part of a kit, if you were transferring it through an FFL, I don't see how he could call it anything but a "long gun" and "rifle". It can't be a handgun with a barrel and stock on it. - OS Once a handgun always a handgun. It matters what it was built into first. OPs Pistol was a functional pistol before it was ever reassembled as a long arm. You also can not assemble your stripped lower as a rifle and then assemble it as a pistol later. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:34:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.... Once a handgun always a handgun. It matters what it was built into first. OPs Pistol was a functional pistol before it was ever reassembled as a long arm. You also can not assemble your stripped lower as a rifle and then assemble it as a pistol later. You are contradicting yourself by saying "once a handgun always a handgun", which is certainly not accurate at all. If originally a handgun, can be made into a GCA rifle, and back to handgun. If originally a rifle, must stay a rifle. Of course you may take your AR pistol, configure it into a rifle, and sell it as a rifle. This applies to all weapons platforms btw, not just AR. Hence my opinion that a Glock made into a GCA rifle is indeed a rifle, and may be transferred as one. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:41:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Hmm. Let us say 19 year old wants to buy a Glock. He can't buy a Glock from a FFL. Let us say the FFL has an used MechTech w/ 16" bbl, a stock, and a Glock lower. It clearly started as a pistol, and is clearly now a rifle. How did the dealer log it in his books, and may he sell it to the 19 year old?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:49:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmm. Let us say 19 year old wants to buy a Glock. He can't buy a Glock from a FFL. Let us say the FFL has an used MechTech w/ 16" bbl, a stock, and a Glock lower. It clearly started as a pistol, and is clearly now a rifle. How did the dealer log it in his books, and may he sell it to the 19 year old? You have to be a manufacturer and pay an excise tax to build rifles if you are in the firearms business. And you can't make firearms for others unless you are a business. I see folks building rifles for others which is more than likely illegal. Funny, that's not "criminal activity" on these boards. But assuming he is a manufacturer FFL/SOT, he can build a rifle, stamp his name on it, pay an excise tax and sell it as a rifle. The 19 year old can't turn it into a pistol, though, because it was manufactured as a rifle at that point. 19 year olds, can't buy frames or pistols unless it's from an individual and the State allows it. In Arizona, 18 year olds can legally own pistols, they just can't buy them from FFLs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:50:35 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmm. Let us say 19 year old wants to buy a Glock. He can't buy a Glock from a FFL. Let us say the FFL has an used MechTech w/ 16" bbl, a stock, and a Glock lower. It clearly started as a pistol, and is clearly now a rifle. How did the dealer log it in his books, and may he sell it to the 19 year old? Unless it still has the Glock slide and short barrel with it, in which case I imagine it could still legitimately be a Glock pistol "kit" -- if only the rifle config exists for sale, then I can't see how it could be anything but a rifle. The MechTech carbine only uses the lower receiver of the Glock, same as an AR rifle uses a lower receiver that could be either pistol or rifle. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:52:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have to be a manufacturer and pay an excise tax to build rifles if you are in the firearms business. And you can't make firearms for others unless you are a business. But assuming he is a manufacturer FFL/SOT, he can build a rifle, stamp his name on it, pay an excise tax and sell it as a rifle. The 19 year old can't turn it into a pistol, though, because it was manufactured as a rifle at that point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hmm. Let us say 19 year old wants to buy a Glock. He can't buy a Glock from a FFL. Let us say the FFL has an used MechTech w/ 16" bbl, a stock, and a Glock lower. It clearly started as a pistol, and is clearly now a rifle. How did the dealer log it in his books, and may he sell it to the 19 year old? You have to be a manufacturer and pay an excise tax to build rifles if you are in the firearms business. And you can't make firearms for others unless you are a business. But assuming he is a manufacturer FFL/SOT, he can build a rifle, stamp his name on it, pay an excise tax and sell it as a rifle. The 19 year old can't turn it into a pistol, though, because it was manufactured as a rifle at that point. OP said "used MechTech". So we're assuming the FFL bought or traded for it already configured as a rifle and hence did not manufacture it. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:52:34 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have to be a manufacturer and pay an excise tax to build rifles if you are in the firearms business. And you can't make firearms for others unless you are a business. But assuming he is a manufacturer FFL/SOT, he can build a rifle, stamp his name on it, pay an excise tax and sell it as a rifle. The 19 year old can't turn it into a pistol, though, because it was manufactured as a rifle at that point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hmm. Let us say 19 year old wants to buy a Glock. He can't buy a Glock from a FFL. Let us say the FFL has an used MechTech w/ 16" bbl, a stock, and a Glock lower. It clearly started as a pistol, and is clearly now a rifle. How did the dealer log it in his books, and may he sell it to the 19 year old? You have to be a manufacturer and pay an excise tax to build rifles if you are in the firearms business. And you can't make firearms for others unless you are a business. But assuming he is a manufacturer FFL/SOT, he can build a rifle, stamp his name on it, pay an excise tax and sell it as a rifle. The 19 year old can't turn it into a pistol, though, because it was manufactured as a rifle at that point. No, no, the FFL bought the MechTech w/ the Glock lower from someone else, and hasn't changed anything. Undo a switch, the Glock lower detaches from the MechTech, and a regular slide & bbl can be added. So how does a FFL log a MechTech w/ a 16" bbl, a stock, and a Glock or 1911 lower - rifle or pistol? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:54:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:You have to be a manufacturer and pay an excise tax to build rifles if you are in the firearms business. And you can't make firearms for others unless you are a business. I see folks building rifles for others which is more than likely illegal. Funny, that's not "criminal activity" on these boards. But assuming he is a manufacturer FFL/SOT, he can build a rifle, stamp his name on it, pay an excise tax and sell it as a rifle. The 19 year old can't turn it into a pistol, though, because it was manufactured as a rifle at that point. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 7:58:28 PM EDT
[#17]
That's a good question because those things do exist. Technically, the FFL has to log what he buys. If he takes it in as a rifle, it's a rifle. He can't take it apart, technically, unless he's a manufacturer.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 8:00:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Converting a pistol into a rifle does not make a new firearm. ATF Rul. 2011-4. It also states that that pistol which was sold as a rifle to the 19 year old actually CAN be converted back to a pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:You have to be a manufacturer and pay an excise tax to build rifles if you are in the firearms business. And you can't make firearms for others unless you are a business. I see folks building rifles for others which is more than likely illegal. Funny, that's not "criminal activity" on these boards.
But assuming he is a manufacturer FFL/SOT, he can build a rifle, stamp his name on it, pay an excise tax and sell it as a rifle. The 19 year old can't turn it into a pistol, though, because it was manufactured as a rifle at that point. That's a personal use rule. That has nothing to do with what FFL & SOTs are allowed to do. https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 8:01:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Doubletap.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 8:05:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... Converting a pistol into a rifle does not make a new firearm. ATF Rul. 2011-4. ... Well, says it does not make a new NFA firearm ("firearm as defined by 26 U.S. Code § 5845"). It does however change classification of the firearm, so the "new" is sort of debatable as to usage as far as GCA firearms are concerned. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 8:07:18 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmm. Let us say 19 year old wants to buy a Glock. He can't buy a Glock from a FFL. Let us say the FFL has an used MechTech w/ 16" bbl, a stock, and a Glock lower. It clearly started as a pistol, and is clearly now a rifle. How did the dealer log it in his books, and may he sell it to the 19 year old? Since it's a dealer the may be some manufacture rules that would not apply to a person that doesn't have a FFL. But if he has a weapon so manufactured it can be sold to the 19 year old as a rifle barring any further state law against the sale. The person who sold it as a rifle knowing it had been manufactured as a pistol is supposedly the only one who could/would be charged. If the dealer took it in believing it was never manufactured as a pistol and sold it as such neither he nor further purchasers would be charged. On the other hand charges are made and dropped all the time so good luck to you all. I for one will build my AR pistol as a pistol and sell it as a pistol regardless of what length barrel it has on it and if it does or does not have a stock on at the same time as a 16" or longer barrel. I will not build a rifle and later make it a pistol because "no one can prove it" (And no I'm not implying anyone here said they would do such a thing.) Good night. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 8:18:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, says it does not make a new NFA firearm ("firearm as defined by 26 U.S. Code § 5845"). It does however change classification of the firearm, so the "new" is sort of debatable as to usage as far as GCA firearms are concerned. - OS Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ... Converting a pistol into a rifle does not make a new firearm. ATF Rul. 2011-4. ... Well, says it does not make a new NFA firearm ("firearm as defined by 26 U.S. Code § 5845"). It does however change classification of the firearm, so the "new" is sort of debatable as to usage as far as GCA firearms are concerned. - OS "Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol)." Says as long as not regulated under NFA |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 8:40:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol)." Says as long as not regulated under NFA Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... Converting a pistol into a rifle does not make a new firearm. ATF Rul. 2011-4. ... Well, says it does not make a new NFA firearm ("firearm as defined by 26 U.S. Code § 5845"). It does however change classification of the firearm, so the "new" is sort of debatable as to usage as far as GCA firearms are concerned. - OS when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol)." Says as long as not regulated under NFA That's what I said. A new firearm was not made as per 26 USC 5845, which lists NFA firearm only. However, you have definitely made a new GCA rifle as opposed to the new GCA pistol you started with, which is not illegal. If you make a pistol from an original rifle, however, you have indeed made a new firearm as per 5845, which is not legal. - OS |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 8:42:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol)." Says as long as not regulated under NFA Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... Converting a pistol into a rifle does not make a new firearm. ATF Rul. 2011-4. ... Well, says it does not make a new NFA firearm ("firearm as defined by 26 U.S. Code § 5845"). It does however change classification of the firearm, so the "new" is sort of debatable as to usage as far as GCA firearms are concerned. - OS when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol)." Says as long as not regulated under NFA Further when you wish to unassemble it and return it back to a pistol (original design) then a NFA firearm is not made provided you don't assemble it into a NFA regulated firearm. In other words don't put the stock on before you change out the short barrel, and don't assemble it into a SBR and all is fine. You can legally assemble a GCA (title 1)rifle from a pistol and sell it as a rifle. You can even put a 16"+ barrel on a SBR (title 2/ NFA) and sell it as a CGA rifle. No paperwork, no notices required. ETA: ya beat me to the reply OS. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 8:44:10 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
26 USC 5845(a)(3) an (a)(4) is part of the NFA. What your post is referring to, and what OS was saying, is that a NFA firearm is not made as defined by this section of the NFA. Further when you wish to unassemble it and return it back to a pistol (original design) then a NFA firearm is not made provided you don't assemble it into a NFA regulated firearm. In other words don't put the stock on before you change out the short barrel, and don't assemble it into a SBR and all is fine. You can legally assemble a GCA (title 1)rifle from a pistol and sell it as a rifle. You can even put a 16"+ barrel on a SBR (title 2/ NFA) and sell it as a CGA rifle. No paperwork, no notices required. ETA: ya beat me to the reply OS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
... Converting a pistol into a rifle does not make a new firearm. ATF Rul. 2011-4. ... Well, says it does not make a new NFA firearm ("firearm as defined by 26 U.S. Code § 5845"). It does however change classification of the firearm, so the "new" is sort of debatable as to usage as far as GCA firearms are concerned. - OS when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol)." Says as long as not regulated under NFA Further when you wish to unassemble it and return it back to a pistol (original design) then a NFA firearm is not made provided you don't assemble it into a NFA regulated firearm. In other words don't put the stock on before you change out the short barrel, and don't assemble it into a SBR and all is fine. You can legally assemble a GCA (title 1)rifle from a pistol and sell it as a rifle. You can even put a 16"+ barrel on a SBR (title 2/ NFA) and sell it as a CGA rifle. No paperwork, no notices required. ETA: ya beat me to the reply OS. Pretty much a draw, just noticed yours as I clicked "post". 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 9:50:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Once a handgun always a handgun. It matters what it was built into first. OPs Pistol was a functional pistol before it was ever reassembled as a long arm. You also can not assemble your stripped lower as a rifle and then assemble it as a pistol later. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have an AR pistol built, It is too short for my liking. I would like a longer barrel, but my state seems a bit gray. I am thinking of just making it a rifle, if so, can I sell it as a rifle? Is there any other options? Simple past tense verb means he can not put rifle barrel on first. If you purchase a Glock pistol and buy one of those carbine conversion kits in Shotgun News you can not sell it as a rifle. It is still a pistol. .... Not so sure about that. You have indeed made a legal GCA rifle. Certainly if the short barrel doesn't go along with the sale as part of a kit, if you were transferring it through an FFL, I don't see how he could call it anything but a "long gun" and "rifle". It can't be a handgun with a barrel and stock on it. - OS Once a handgun always a handgun. It matters what it was built into first. OPs Pistol was a functional pistol before it was ever reassembled as a long arm. You also can not assemble your stripped lower as a rifle and then assemble it as a pistol later. Not true. If it is configured as a rifle it is a rifle. If you sell it while it is configured as a rifle you are selling a rifle. Don't know where the once a handgun always a handgun comes from. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/18/2015 11:27:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know where the once a handgun always a handgun comes from. I suspect it's a confusion from BATFE's original dictum of "once a rifle, always a rifle" from before the TC case and eventual 2011-4 ruling. Please folks, just read the 2011-4 pdf (linked earlier) - it's actually fairly clear. I think the best summary in the once...a... format is basically "First a pistol, can always go back to a pistol. First a rifle, becomes NFA as anything but a rifle." In the MecTech case, IMO (and IANAL!) the firearm began life as a Glock pistol, is currently a Mechtech rifle, but can become a pistol again without falling under the purview of the NFA (assuming it doesn't pass through a "short barrel with attached stock" phase). Whether the hypothetical 19yo can legally turn that rifle into a pistol is another question - and probably hinges on state laws only. So our hypothetical FFL sells it as a rifle, our hypothetical 19yo checks his state laws and perhaps the S/N with Glock before converting it to a rifle. No eagles were made sick in any part of this process. Richard |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2015 7:30:50 AM EDT
[#28]
This is a 5.56 AR platform in discussion.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2015 7:46:10 AM EDT
[#29]
If thelower was transferred on the 4473 as other, then why wouldnt he be able to make it into a rifle and transfer it as such? It would be no different than building a rifle from the start as far as paperwork is concerned.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2015 7:56:13 AM EDT
[#30]
Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ----> Pistol -----> Rifle ---->
OK Rifle ----> Pistol NOT OK And...I can build a pistol or a rifle and sell to anyone I want to sell it to. I just can't do it with regularity, or the intent to manufacture as a business. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
