The view on the legality of shouldering a sig brace changes every few weeks with new developments, new letters, new products and new rumors. As of today how does it stand? What reaction are people getting when they go to the range with them? At one time it seems people were being told not to shoulder it at the sign up desk.

why not just ask the atf...

As far as I know, nothing has changed since the original "it's no bueno" letter. As far as I know no one has been charged for it. Everyone's waiting to see what happens, I think.

I'd kinda like to see it go to court because I think the ATF would lose. I'm not confident enough in this to want to be the guinea pig, though.

Get a good cheek weld on the receiver extension, any shoulder contact is incidental.

There's too much precedence for that opinion letter to hold up in court.

From what the regional ATF supervisor told me a few months ago, he told all the agents under him to leave the SIg Brace shouldering thing alone if they were to come across it in the field. He feels that if it were to go to court the ATF would lose, and my also loose many of their other less murky opinions in the process.

I hope so.
Thanks for the replies guys

Yes this is the right mentality, cause defending yourself in court is an easy, cheap, and non-stressful proposition. Heck, it'll have very little effect on your life if any at all.

That's the chilling effect they're looking for.

A right unexercised does not exist.

Just like registration schemes, comply or not, both at your own peril.

No law was ever passed to deem it "illegal", so the legality status of it has never changed.

We Americans have the freedom to make our own choices. What you do is your business, not the governments. Like the saying goes, free men don't ask permission. That said, if your choice does fall under some law, don't get caught and use discretion

Because the right to break the law is one of the principles on which this country was founded.



 

Unfortunately, Congress delegated to the ATF the power to write regulation, and it has the effect of law when they enforce it. Same as the DOT, EPA, etc. Who's fining Volkswagen for their diesel engine programming which bypasses the EPA test standards? Not the FBI - it's not being done by a law passed by Congress, it's being done by a regulation from an agency empowered by Congress. It has the force of law regardless.

How it's being enforced isn't by the ATF so much. It's been OTHER SHOOTERS causing the problems. Goes to what the OP was asking, has there been further harassment and denial of your rights by non-ATF "authoritays" who are just trying to prevent getting tangled up in a problem they don't support - ie, gun rights and the 2A?

Is this forum still banning pics of Braces held up to the shoulder? Yes, no, we don't know? They stopped posting when they were taken down and cited in print here for "criminal activity." Why is it we celebrate helping slaves escape to the freedom of non-slave states but there's so much hate going on about Braces? Helping slaves was illegal - you could go to jail. In this case the law isn't about morality, it's about NFA disarmament and how we have allowed it to go on for 80 years.

There's an FOIA request to dump the filling cabinets filled with Letters determining what the ATF says is right or wrong. And they are fighting it tooth and nail. They will lose if Right prevails, and it's going to get interesting when it happens. 30 file cabinets of ambiguous and contradictory letters are going to hit the fan and there will be fallout.

Where the problem stands now is that those who are disposed to exercise their Rights with the idealism of the Constitution are being stopped and harassed by those who insist that authority belongs to the Government only. In other words, they don't accept that you can be a free citizen who can make up your mind for yourself - so they do it for you and the answer is NO.

The funny part is how fast they back down when it might cost them money - such as boycotting a range because they won't allow AR pistols on site. And they get away with it because the traditional shooters and long gun AR shooters don't support the 2A when it comes down to somebody else shooting something they don't like.

Haters gonna hate.

+10000000

Sig Brace is legal.  Done.  End of story.  Carry on.

What law prohibits shouldering an AR pistol?

Your ignoring the issue - Congress gave the ATF authority to write letters, and they are the law. DOT, EPA - same. They impose fines or take you to court for a conviction, if guilty, you go to jail. Regulation is law when Congress sluffs it out to Agencies. It's not rocket science, it's politics - Congress doesn't want to get mired in the details and they have delegated the Agencies to do their dirty work.

Regulation = law.

No cases in court to prove it, tho. That is the problem. Until it's enforced it's just the ATF's interpretation, and they have lost cases in the past. So far, no enforcement by the ATF, and as reported, they aren't game to pick up anyone.

It's not the ATF creating a hassle with shooters - it's other shooters who are doing the ATF's dirty work. Pure ego and a demonstration of their pushiness. We have seen the enemy on this issue, and it's US. Shooters.

Call them Fudds, Range Nazis, Quislings, or whatever, they are just the same as those supporting the Vichy government in France and turning over Resistance fighters to the Nazis. They get a warm and fuzzy doing the ATF's work for whatever reason.

Our defense is to name them at the particular location they were found at and to pressure that site with economic deprivation. It's a very effective and legal tool, plus one that the proprietor will respect very quickly.

For all those who claim shouldering the Brace is perfectly ok, go ahead, post pics. I haven't seen any new ones since February.

meh shot mine yesterday no one cared or even looked at it twice.

i went to the range a couple weeks ago, and like any nervous ninny, was cheek welding my KAK shockwave blade. Range safety guy comes up to me and says he'd rather see me shoulder it and shoot safely than unsafely. He says the ATF agents around this area know that the shouldering of the SIG brace or KAK Shockwave blade is a gray area, and won't waste the time on arresting someone for it. I went again last week, shouldered it the whole time. Know one cared or even looked at me, even though I had the coolest weapon out there.

I'm not shouldering it, it's a cheek weld. It is separated from my shoulder by a distance... possibly a distance of nanometers, but it is definitely not on my shoulder, I would never do that.

Whenever shooting my AR pistol with ATF agents present I always stretch a condom over the Shockwave to make sure it doesn't touch my shoulder.

Putting a condom over the shockwave would be modifying the brace and therefore illegal.

There is nothing unsafe about shooting an AR pistol with just a cheekweld or even in a weaver stance if you wish. So your "RO" is either and complete idiot or this is a BS story. Your pick.





 

Haha right.  So any AK or AR pistol without a brace in "unsafe?"  Tell the RSO he's full of shit for me.  Also, RSO's aren't lawyers so I wouldn't be taking legal advise from one.

If I slide a paper plate between my shoulder and my brace, would that be legal as long as the paper plate is not attached to anything? I think I'll write a letter.

You can put a condom on your shoulder and it'll be fine.

BOOM!

Business idea. Sholder condoms for Pistol Receiver Extensions!

You better hurry up and get that patent!

He can have the shoulder condom patent...sounds hot and uncomfortable.  I'm applying for the brace condom.  One size fits all and no worry about having fit fat, huge gorillas or little man boys.

For that matter, how often do you go shooting shirtless?  Even my thinnest summer-weight shirts are still 0.015" thick, and a heavy coat can be many times that.

I know, but he is the RSO, and can kick you off the range if he wants. It was no big deal anyways. He's actually a cool guy and wasn't a weiner about it.

There was a shoulder stock for a pistol made many years ago that you would hold in the same hand along with your pistol's grip. It would not be 'attached' to the pistol. I wonder what ever became of that.

Think I'll cover mine with a paper bag like a wino

http://www.usa1shot.com/

still around

haha, right on!   and even without a brace condom, if you are wearing a shirt, the brace never actually touches your shoulder.

I'd love to see a attorney make this case in court, hire slick willy.   It depends what your definition of "is" is.

I'll worry about it after I read news of someone getting arrested and successfully convicted of shouldering a brace.

I'm a Florida attorney and would LOVE for a case to come up so that I could be a part of it.

I wonder if a revolver would "transform" away from being a pistol if shouldered (or a Glock--though it would turn into a single shot, and have to be held tightly in place).  I think the guys I've seen shooting AR pistols at the range must be holding them like a millimeter or two off their shoulder, because I NEVER see them change into anything.

The one that prohibits a rifle with a barrel less than 16" from having a shoulder stock.



 

The word "stock' is not mentioned in the law, just to be clear. The factors are:

- designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and
- less than 16" barrel or less than 26" in OAL

- OS

As for the 26"--does that equal 26" to the end of the brace or to the end of the buffer tube?
If my buffer tube made the AR Pistol 24", I could mount a brace about 2.5" back and it would exceed the 26" (and perhaps a VFG would be legal).
Thoughts??

Nope.

Measurement is from end of buffer tube to end of barrel (not including muzzle device).

Yep, far as we know, as ATF states, measured to "the end of the firearm". Nothing on the ass end has ever been ruled to count in OAL except for a stock. Whether a buffer tube even counts on firearms that do not need it for function is gray.

- OS

Is it illegal for me to brace my Glock against my shoulder and pull the trigger?

With a brace attached to it,  I'm sure Max would say yes. Otherwise, no rulings about shooting a pistol of any type from the shoulder, including an AR.

- OS

The Thordsen letter implies you can't shoulder a receiver extension either.  

http://www.thordsencustoms.com/media/wysiwyg/ATF_Response_letter_for_AR_pistol_pack.PDF

"However, if a pistol assembled with an AR-type buffer tube or similar component; which in tum, redesigns the subject AR-type pistol to be designed or redesigned and consequently intended to be fired from the shoulder; an NFA weapon as defined in 26U.S.C. $ 58a5(a)(3); has been made."

I would suggest that may well hint at the gray area I mentioned, ie, adding a buffer tube to a firearm that doesn't require it for operation.

You read my bud's Dolomite's letter regarding that on an AR?

"Use of a buffer tube on an AK-type firearm that has no use for such item may be evidence that the weapon is intended to be fired from the shoulder" and so forth.

https://d2kyvj3kvr3yw0.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/atf-ak-ar15-buffer-tube-2015-02-11.pdf

- OS

That letter never addresses shouldering an AR-type pistol while the Thordsen letter does.  AR-type pistols include integrally functional receiver extensions.

Your hint takes an interpretive leap while the Thordsen letter is pretty explicit.

 

When you add a "brace" for the purpose of using it to shoulder fire it then yes it is.



 

I assume you are referring to something like this, and no, you can't legally shoulder this:

Any case law?

yes. It's known as CGA86/NFA title 1 and 2



Namely 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, 15 U.S.C. Chapter 18, 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44,

 CFR Title 27, start with those. No need for case law when it is enacted by congress and codifed as law and SCOTUS has ruled CGA/NFA  constitutional.