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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/25/2024 11:21:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryI first got into retro 3 years ago, I started out to build just a M16A1. While digging up parts for it, I kept running across good deals on parts for a 607 and others so I remembered the saying, "'the time to buy it is when you see it". So I ended up starting a few different builds at once. The pictures on https://imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556 were some of my main go to pictures. It would be a shame to see them go away. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 6:42:08 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shane733: I first got into retro 3 years ago, I started out to build just a M16A1. While digging up parts for it, I kept running across good deals on parts for a 607 and others so I remembered the saying, "'the time to buy it is when you see it". So I ended up starting a few different builds at once. The pictures on https://imageevent.com/willyp/firearmsalbums/uscoltarmalitem16ar15556 were some of my main go to pictures. It would be a shame to see them go away. Not to worry. Everything firearms related will remain, I want to expand on it. Phil has no problem if I do remove the non firearm stuff. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 7:13:30 AM EDT
[#3]
I know Armalite used some common components when assembling their prototypes. Anyone one know where they got the first pins? Airplane rivets, turned down bolts, etc.?
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:13:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AmericanSheepDog]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tulizzy: I have another theory... Field mod due to either the lower or upper receiver pin hole wearing or out of tolerance. This might have helped keep them from falling out. I was also thinking this might be a later thing vs an earlier thing.... They did change the pin design completely at some time(I forget that exact time) to get away from the 601 style pin. Thoughts? I think the bottom is plausible but still have major doubts. I don’t think it would be the top one myself. I don’t think front pivot pin wear was really a problem, and i’m assuming APS would tell you they were the same diameter as any other front pivot pin considering that his original theory was that they were the original pin Again, just my own thoughts based on what ive read. I could be wrong in this regard |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 2:08:06 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm skeptical.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/26/2024 3:15:41 PM EDT
[#6]
I'm old enough to have seen 601's still in issue in USAF. (Maybe some still are somewhere.)
Never saw anything like that. It's very obviously a 1/4" rivet repurposed as a pin, perhaps due to poorly trained troops losing uncaptured front pins in a 3rd world setting. Not a terrible fix, if that's the case. Inelegant, but not that bad if you consider the spare parts situation. I'm also a bit dubious of the secrecy concerning a 60+ year old obsolete rifle, but whatever you need to do in the name of national security, I guess. As ASD correctly stated, the onus is on the originator of this new information to prove its veracity, especially since this is new, previously unheard of information. I don't doubt his story, just his conclusions. This looks like to me like a 3rd world fix, not an aerospace quality Colt/Armalite production item... |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:58:51 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m1sniper: No Sir, I took over >https://imageevent.com/willyp when Phil called me and told me was not going to renew and asked if I wanted to take it over. Too much good info on his site to let disappear, so I gladly took it over, but Ima puter moron and have not added to it yet. I want to expand on the M16 section with the help of AmericanSheepDog and AE Young if they are willing, but even more so the M14/XM21 section as that is my real interest, wood and steel.. I hope to add a small section on M1 Garand sniper rifles. RBR site is owned by member Texsquirrel Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m1sniper: Originally Posted By tstetz: You own Retro Black Rifle now? That's awesome. That has been a go to for me for ages, and I check back frequently. It would be fantastic if much of the additional info that percolates here is added eventually too. No Sir, I took over >https://imageevent.com/willyp when Phil called me and told me was not going to renew and asked if I wanted to take it over. Too much good info on his site to let disappear, so I gladly took it over, but Ima puter moron and have not added to it yet. I want to expand on the M16 section with the help of AmericanSheepDog and AE Young if they are willing, but even more so the M14/XM21 section as that is my real interest, wood and steel.. I hope to add a small section on M1 Garand sniper rifles. RBR site is owned by member Texsquirrel @m1sniper As someone who is reaching the age where my eyes are starting to have issues my first suggestion for the site is change the font. It’s difficult to read at times. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:32:05 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jwb211: @m1sniper As someone who is reaching the age where my eyes are starting to have issues my first suggestion for the site is change the font. It’s difficult to read at times. 10-4, thanks for the input. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:10:51 PM EDT
[#9]
I have no idea what to make of that pin, but I was recently at a US army small arms facility for a work thing, and in the "Museum" they had a new, never issued 601 and it had one of those pins.
I commented and we were allowed to take it out and look at it. Unfortunately we were not allowed to have our phones so No pic, no evidence. I have no dog in the fight, but I have seen it once in an indisputable location, at least for me. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:35:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AmericanSheepDog]
[#10]
Serial? And what museum/facility?
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Posted: 4/28/2024 7:15:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Badgerord: I have no idea what to make of that pin, but I was recently at a US army small arms facility for a work thing, and in the "Museum" they had a new, never issued 601 and it had one of those pins. I commented and we were allowed to take it out and look at it. Unfortunately we were not allowed to have our phones so No pic, no evidence. I have no dog in the fight, but I have seen it once in an indisputable location, at least for me. Very interesting, thanks for posting Marty. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 10:28:57 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Badgerord: I have no idea what to make of that pin, but I was recently at a US army small arms facility for a work thing, and in the "Museum" they had a new, never issued 601 and it had one of those pins. I commented and we were allowed to take it out and look at it. Unfortunately we were not allowed to have our phones so No pic, no evidence. I have no dog in the fight, but I have seen it once in an indisputable location, at least for me. Well, I would say that changes things considerably. How did this detail go previously unnoticed? |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 12:17:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AmericanSheepDog]
[#13]
*changes things considerably if the claim it is unissued is true lol
I remain a skeptic but am interested in learning more |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 5:43:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanSheepDog: *changes things considerably if the claim it is unissued is true lol I remain a skeptic but am interested in learning more I'm always skeptical, hell, skeptical is my middle name..., I think it changes things considerably- Second (known reputable) independent source, with a sighting from a second location? I'd say there's something here worth looking into. There has to be random 601 pics out there that show these pins that no one previously noticed. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 5:51:35 PM EDT
[#15]
Maybe it was an available replacement item when the (non captive) front pin was lost, but you'd think in all the original 601 photos we have cataloged that run the entire span of production from SN 0000 to 14k+, we'd have seen them by now if they'd left the factory that way.
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LA, USA
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Posted: 4/29/2024 10:06:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Here's a 601 kit that is currently up on the APEX website. It's kind of a mash of parts, but notice it's "pivot" pin.
(HINT: It's a hex bolt and nut) (sorry...I couldn't get the photo to go hot and show) |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 3:55:18 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kalahnikid: Maybe it was an available replacement item when the (non captive) front pin was lost. If it was, it’s not on any of the parts lists I’ve seen and I’ve seen and own quite a few. The green paint still bugs me most. It seems parkerized under the paint so the paint is an extra step which means extra cost. |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 9:24:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m1sniper: No Sir, I took over >https://imageevent.com/willyp when Phil called me and told me was not going to renew and asked if I wanted to take it over. Too much good info on his site to let disappear, so I gladly took it over, but Ima puter moron and have not added to it yet. I want to expand on the M16 section with the help of AmericanSheepDog and AE Young if they are willing, but even more so the M14/XM21 section as that is my real interest, wood and steel.. I hope to add a small section on M1 Garand sniper rifles. RBR site is owned by member Texsquirrel Ah, okay! Still cool to see. Like you say, too much good info out there that could disappear if not maintained. |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 9:25:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Hoping to have my 601 together this week. We'll see!
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Posted: 4/30/2024 2:05:26 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dex223: Here's a 601 kit that is currently up on the APEX website. It's kind of a mash of parts, but notice it's "pivot" pin. (HINT: It's a hex bolt and nut) (sorry...I couldn't get the photo to go hot and show)  Attached File |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/30/2024 11:33:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Badgerord: I have no idea what to make of that pin, but I was recently at a US army small arms facility for a work thing, and in the "Museum" they had a new, never issued 601 and it had one of those pins. I commented and we were allowed to take it out and look at it. Unfortunately we were not allowed to have our phones so No pic, no evidence. I have no dog in the fight, but I have seen it once in an indisputable location, at least for me. A lot of thes etypes of facilities don't allow phones, hence, no pics. Unfortunately this leads to being called a liar when trying to share knowledge on the intarwebs. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 9:44:36 AM EDT
[#22]
Noone called you a liar
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Posted: 5/1/2024 11:25:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: m1sniper]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By APSArmament: A lot of thes etypes of facilities don't allow phones, hence, no pics. Unfortunately this leads to being called a liar when trying to share knowledge on the intarwebs. Please APSA, don't take what has been written that way. As mentioned me personally want this subject researched much deeper. I do not feel (knowing many of the members here) are calling you a liar. Some of them have done real deep research and are way skeptical based on what they have found, but as I mentioned in earlier posts that knowing and befriending those who created the RBR website,,, they at the time thought they had presented all info regarding M16 but then we have ASD and AEYoung who have found new info and they have done deep searches. .. I say again and request that a time out be taken and folks wanting more/better info look deeper into this mystery and stop posting just for the sake of posting. Opinions are like a--holes, everyone has one and they all stink.. lets all dig deep for definitive answers like the retro members used to do back when it was started in what 2006, before we allow our super great retro forum become like some other forums out there that sux. 
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Posted: 5/1/2024 11:39:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Please all, remember that he spirit of retroland was to help educate, not to blow off any info and that's why we have come this far. Open minds, possible new info, let's work together to get to the truth.. That was the original unwritten "mission statement" of retroland.. I won't be adding any more replies to this thread unless someone comes up with positive info one way or the other,,, so you deep researchers, get-er-dun:...
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OR, USA
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Posted: 5/2/2024 1:00:58 AM EDT
[#25]
In my previous area of study, this wouldnt be all that uncommon to see... In fact I remember seeing roll pins on early rifles which previously no one had seen in any documentation or photos of, which ended up being legit... So bring it on, and everyone start scouring their photos and resources!!!
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