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@Augee - Here are two later production U.S. Army FNMI M16A2s that I photographed back in March. They exhibit the late style lower forging and use an interesting font - kind of flat and wide in the way it is imprinted into the surface. I think the majority of the text is engraved, but the serial numbers are stamped. I'll defer to the experts here on the exact process.
FNMI M16A2 Serial No. 7190302 Attached File Attached File FNMI M16A2 Serial No. 7190353 Attached File Attached File |
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I can weigh in a little here, those are not late A2’s from FN, they’re actually fairly early. The first A2’s FN produced had the electro markings on them. Best guess is the DOD told them to stop doing that do to them wearing off quite easily. I’ve personally seen electro’d A2’s that had the serial restamped under the original one as it was no longer readable. FN then used a rotary engraver for approx. 100k A2’s before getting a proper rollmark die in the 7.2 million range.
William |
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William, thanks a lot for the reply about those FN lowers. I remember you contributing a lot of information to my questions about the early style of electro pen markings on FN lowers in this thread. I guess "later style" was a poor choice of words. I really meant "later than the original electro pen markings," because I wasn't sure when this style of engraving came into use. I see now that in that old thread, you referred to the engraving replacing the dot matrix, and then roll marking replacing the engraving. That all makes sense now. Maybe "mid-production FN" would be a better way to categorize it? This type of engraving would be interesting to try to replicate on a clone lower, since it looks like it was done with a small end mill instead of the usual rounded bit that seems to be more common.
I'm still trying to work out a way to replicate the FN dot matrix markings. I'm considering following a stencil with a small punch and very tediously making a series of many, many dots... Then maybe rough it up a little to approximate the electro pen. The real markings have always looked fairly sloppy to me anyway, so it doesn't seem like it would have to be too precise. |
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3ACR, that is the kind of FN I had in Iraq in 05-06, except mine, oddly enough, matched upper and lower. That is the shiny type PG I keep talking about every so often. I do know that that FN also used a peel washer as well. Mine was even a 7 mil series.
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Originally Posted By JupiterMaximus: 3ACR, that is the kind of FN I had in Iraq in 05-06, except mine, oddly enough, matched upper and lower. That is the shiny type PG I keep talking about every so often. I do know that that FN also used a peel washer as well. Mine was even a 7 mil series. View Quote Thanks, that's interesting. I've probably mentioned this somewhere before, but my unit had mostly early FN A2s with the dot matrix style lowers in 05-06. I actually still have copies of the property book that list all of the serial numbers. There seems to have been a few oddball higher serial numbers, like they were issued as replacements or added to the books later. I'll have to dig them up to see if any of them would fall into what I'll now call this "mid-production" serial number range with engraved lettering. I don't recall ever seeing a Colt A2 in that unit, and I don't think I've seen a serial number in the property book that looked like a Colt. |
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It's been frustrating to see Photobucket's banner and (sometimes) blurring cover up a lot of the great reference photos in this thread and others. I hope the original posters don't mind, but I opened up each Photobucket link in this thread, downloaded the original photos, and uploaded them directly to the forum so they show up without the banners. I really appreciate the original contributions to this knowledge base, and I thought this would make them more useful again. Maybe @Augee can use the URLs for these photos to update the original post with clear images again. I'm reusing the original captions where possible to connect them with the photos.
Non-Colt U.S. Property M16s: Balimoy: Attached File Attached File FNMI: Earlier FN lowers are not rollmarked - but have had their markings engraved in a "dot matrix" style with an electro pencil: M16A2, FT Sill, OK - Image courtesy of schaz42 Attached File Later marks are rollmarked - Image courtesy of schaz42: Attached File Attached File Excellent photos posted by @MauserMatt, with his captions: Here is the oldest Colt M16A2 I have in my vault right now. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File And here's the "youngest" I have in my inventory at the moment: Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File And finally, my oldest FN... Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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I can't find the screen name of the member who posted these photos a year or so ago (if I can find it, I'll add the photo credit), but I thought this was an interesting example of a late production FN M16A2. Note the current "M4" style lower receiver forging with the raised "tube" over the rear takedown pin detent/spring channel. It also has a stamped "F" Anchor Harvey upper receiver, which I thought was a forging used for replacement uppers, but it looks like it may have been used for complete late production rifles as well.
FN M16A2 S/N 7451787: Attached File Attached File |
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A late FN M16A2 lower receiver, SN 7319173, along with Colt M16A2 lower receiver, SN 6380008. Both are likely Cerro forgings, with the FN being the later "m4" style. Image originally found on Reddit by member mb44kar.
Attached File Original image link (image above uploaded directly in case this one eventually disappears). |
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Originally Posted By 3ACR_Scout: A late FN M16A2 lower receiver, SN 7319173, along with Colt M16A2 lower receiver, SN 6380008. Both are likely Cerro forgings, with the FN being the later "m4" style. Image originally found on Reddit by member mb44kar. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/Late_FN_M16A2_7319173_Colt_M16A2_6380008-1541989.JPG Original image link (image above uploaded directly in case this one eventually disappears). View Quote I think the top FN receiver is a Kaiser Alum. forging. The selector stops tend to be more rectangular on a Cerro. The bottom receiver is definitely a "Type 3" Colt only forging. The RE reinforcing has no "corner" at the lower front edge. |
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Originally Posted By Dex223: I think the top FN receiver is a Kaiser Alum. forging. The selector stops tend to be more rectangular on a Cerro. The bottom receiver is definitely a "Type 3" Colt only forging. The RE reinforcing has no "corner" at the lower front edge. View Quote Agree on all counts, haven't seen any newer forgings with round enough stops to match that. I'm not sure what the trend (if there is one) is in serial numbers...where the switch happened. Also of interest is the bluish tint to the FN receiver and the flatter grey of the Colt. The buffer tube and stock also show some differences. I've noticed, in a statistically-insignificant handful of instances, FN buffer tubes tend to be a more stand-out parkerized color. Neat cage-coded hammer too! |
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Originally Posted By mb44kar: Agree on all counts, haven't seen any newer forgings with round enough stops to match that. I'm not sure what the trend (if there is one) is in serial numbers...where the switch happened. Also of interest is the bluish tint to the FN receiver and the flatter grey of the Colt. The buffer tube and stock also show some differences. I've noticed, in a statistically-insignificant handful of instances, FN buffer tubes tend to be a more stand-out parkerized color. Neat cage-coded hammer too! View Quote |
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Death to quislings.
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Originally Posted By backbencher: View Quote In the pic the FN buffer tube is less black/grey and more greenish/yellow like the color of parkerized parts, unlike the Colt. On maybe 3 examples I've seen of FN vs. Colt A2 rifles, this one included, that has persisted. It's likely not indicative of actual differences between FN and Colt, just an observation. Don't mind my ramblings. |
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Originally Posted By mb44kar: In the pic the FN buffer tube is less black/grey and more greenish/yellow like the color of parkerized parts, unlike the Colt. On maybe 3 examples I've seen of FN vs. Colt A2 rifles, this one included, that has persisted. It's likely not indicative of actual differences between FN and Colt, just an observation. Don't mind my ramblings. View Quote Just a different dye lot in the anodizing. Was getting excited @ the idea of FN steel buffer tubes. |
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Death to quislings.
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Originally Posted By Dex223: I think the top FN receiver is a Kaiser Alum. forging. The selector stops tend to be more rectangular on a Cerro. The bottom receiver is definitely a "Type 3" Colt only forging. The RE reinforcing has no "corner" at the lower front edge. View Quote Originally Posted By mb44kar: Agree on all counts, haven't seen any newer forgings with round enough stops to match that. I'm not sure what the trend (if there is one) is in serial numbers...where the switch happened. View Quote I'm a little slow in responding, been a bit busy these past few weeks. I see what you all are saying, but I think that FN lower looks identical in detail to the one in my post above it, which has the late style full "tube" for the rear takedown spring. I don't believe that style of tube is found on KA forgings. Both of those FN lowers seem to have the same style of selector stops. Another thing I noticed, which may not be accurate since this forging in Dex223's photo is still "raw," is that the two FN lowers above seem to have a slightly more gradual curved taper from the front pivot pin hole down to the magwell. I think the shape of the KA forging curves in to the magwell a little sooner, without the longer gradual taper toward the bottom: It just looks to me like the curve in that area is a little different on the two FN lowers. That may not be accurate, but those two FN lowers, which both appear to be later A2 lowers with rolled / stamped markings instead of the mid-production engraved markings, look like they have identical selector stops to me, and the later number one, 7451787, has the detent spring tube on the right side which I didn't think was found on KA forgings. What do you all make of that lower, 7451787? Is that a Cerro lower, or a later version of one of the earlier forgings? Thanks for the feedback! |
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@3ACR_Scout
@mb44kar Originally Posted By mb44kar: I think the purplish lower you posted is a Cerro, I haven't seen any other company make that style of rear reinforcement. I can't see the difference between the fronts of the magwells, maybe that requires a good comparison pic. As for the stops, I think they are different but the difference is subtle..In this comparison pic, draw a horizontal line tangent to the curve of the selector stop (the portion which has been milled almost-flat to accommodate the selector). The purplish FN lower you posted actually has a segment in the middle which is horizontal, whereas the other grey FN doesn't seem to. The grey FN's selector stops seem to just be two different radii ellipses meeting at a point in the middle. But this also might just appear this way because of the picture quality. And looking solely at the fact that they grey lower is rollmarked and the purple lower is engraved, I'd agree that the grey is Cerro. It seems like you'd like to know if the switch from Kaiser to Cerro forging happened at the same time as the switch from engraving/punch markings to proper rollmarks. I'm also interested in this but have no data. https://i.imgur.com/5GeEsJ0.jpg By the way, looking at the Kaiser forging FN lowers you posted before posting that purplish FN lower, those seem to have different selector stops from both of the above examples. Those have smaller radii ellipses, and rather than meeting in the middle or being joined by a horizontal line, they are joined by a skew line. View Quote I don't think either of the FNs are Cerro forgings. The reinforcing "band" that wraps around the Rec. Ext. area is too narrow. A Cerro has a wide "band", like this: (photo from the internet) The only forging that comes close is a Cardinal, like this: It has a full tube, but not as pronounced as on a Cerro. And, it looks to have the more rectangular selector stops. But, I'm not sure I'd say for sure it's this one either. As for the fronts of the mag wells, I think that's more of a lighting/angle of photo thing. Since both are late, high serial number rifles, it would make since that they wouldn't be Kaiser forgings. But, the Kaiser ones were around at least through the late 90s. Without any more info on when and which forgings started being produced, I just don't know. |
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Originally Posted By Dex223: @3ACR_Scout @mb44kar I don't think either of the FNs are Cerro forgings. Since both are late, high serial number rifles, it would make since that they wouldn't be Kaiser forgings. But, the Kaiser ones were around at least through the late 90s. Without any more info on when and which forgings started being produced, I just don't know. View Quote I agree on the continued ambiguity, and I was mistakenly using "Cerro lower" to stand in for the Cardinal you posted - the two were the same in my head for being so similar. But I see the band difference now, and had known the detent tube being partially buried in the band on the Cardinals, just forgot or didn't see here. Thanks |
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Originally Posted By 3ACR_Scout: A late FN M16A2 lower receiver, SN 7319173, along with Colt M16A2 lower receiver, SN 6380008. Both are likely Cerro forgings, with the FN being the later "m4" style. Image originally found on Reddit by member mb44kar. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/Late_FN_M16A2_7319173_Colt_M16A2_6380008-1541989.JPG Original image link (image above uploaded directly in case this one eventually disappears). View Quote Just curious about the differences between the Colt A2 markings (Pegasus + Colt version vs. Gov't Property version)... Is one older than the other? |
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Originally Posted By 3ACR_Scout: A late FN M16A2 lower receiver, SN 7319173, along with Colt M16A2 lower receiver, SN 6380008. Both are likely Cerro forgings, with the FN being the later "m4" style. Image originally found on Reddit by member mb44kar. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27888/Late_FN_M16A2_7319173_Colt_M16A2_6380008-1541989.JPG Original image link (image above uploaded directly in case this one eventually disappears). View Quote I'm curious about the markings on the M16A2 'Gov Property' variety... Did Colt ever transition the markings on the trigger pocket to "Colt's Mfg. Co. Inc." as in the picture below? When did this change occur? |
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Originally Posted By no_cigar: I'm curious about the markings on the M16A2 'Gov Property' variety... Did Colt ever transition the markings on the trigger pocket to "Colt's Mfg. Co. Inc." as in the picture below? When did this change occur? https://gunspot.s3.amazonaws.com/listing-photos/2019/02/28/894b8d0e-0a20-48ea-b98e-d190b6583c58 View Quote Best guess is mid 1994 as all Colt M4A1s (type classified and adopted by the Army in 1994) including a 3 digit M4A1 have that rollmark. |
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"No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to congress a power to disarm the people." William Rawle
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@3ACR_scout
Here's early 90s colt I saw today. Sorry about the clp smudged on magwell. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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That's a very nice rebuild of an A1. Someone at Anniston took great care to do a quality job!
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@Augee
This is amazing info! Is there any chance you still have the original pics from the first post you can update the post with please? Many are gone now unfortunately and this is important to preserve. If not and anyone else saved them and can repost them, that would be great too. I just asked the exact same question pretty much here so will point to this sticky. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/123-766491/ It seems most of cerro 80%s people have now look like this. What variant are they and what clones are they good for? https://www.righttobear.com/cerro-forge-raw-80-percent-lower-receiver-p/80raw-1.htm |
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Originally Posted By henryfrank: @Augee This is amazing info! Is there any chance you still have the original pics from the first post you can update the post with please? Many are gone now unfortunately and this is important to preserve. If not and anyone else saved them and can repost them, that would be great too. I just asked the exact same question pretty much here so will point to this sticky. https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/123-766491/ It seems most of cerro 80%s people have now look like this. What variant are they and what clones are they good for? https://www.righttobear.com/cerro-forge-raw-80-percent-lower-receiver-p/80raw-1.htm View Quote Current production M4A1s and M16A4s. I may have a photo of a Colt M4 with one of those forgings - they being produced from 1994 on .... Attached File |
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"No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to congress a power to disarm the people." William Rawle
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What would a replacement M231 lower receiver look like?
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Well, isn't this a fine kettle of fish.
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Originally Posted By HenryKnoxFineBooks: Current production M4A1s and M16A4s. I may have a photo of a Colt M4 with one of those forgings - they being produced from 1994 on .... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/180398/fn_m4a1_jpg-2071853.JPG View Quote If you could dig that pic of the colt out that would be awesome! Thanks for sharing the FNH pic! |
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Hey everyone, I'm revisiting this thread and the points about the Kaiser vs. Cardinal lower forgings on later FN A2s. I'm going to assume that I was off about Cerro being involved in this discussion at all, and focus on the other two companies. The bottom line is that I think I can replicate a Kaiser lower for cloning purposes but don't have access to the correct style of Cardinal forging. My basic question is whether intermediate or late production FN A2s existed that had roll marked markings, which can be replicated more easily with engraving, vs. the early electro pen / dot matrix style FN lettering. I'd like to do a later FN A2 clone with engraving.
Mid-production FN A2s have this odd flat-bottom font that I posted above, like they were done with a small end mill or a blocky stamp / roll mark process. This style of lettering would be difficult to replicate, so I'm going to skip this group of FN A2s. These are clearly done on a Kaiser lower forging: Attached File As I posted above, this is what I consider a "late" FN A2. Based on the previous discussion, it uses a Cardinal lower forging with the exposed rear takedown pin/spring tube (slightly different from later Cerro lowers). It has what I consider the "normal" style of roll marked lettering: Attached File Attached File Has anyone seen photos of this style of lettering on a Kaiser lower forging, confirmed by a photo like the one above that shows the FN marking on the upper receiver? The lower I posted above shows an earlier serial number, 7319173, compared to the one above, 7451787, but I think it's still undetermined whether it's a Kaiser or Cardinal forging, since the rear reinforcing collar look so similar on the two forgings: Attached File It seems conceivable that FN changed to the "normal" roll marked letter while still using Kaiser forgings, but I'd love to confirm that with photo evidence so I can clone a later FN A2 with engraved lettering. Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By wtwining: Some info I came across, wish I had all of it.... https://i.imgur.com/A5xO7bO.jpg https://i.imgur.com/r7afdmC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/sikD7KK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Qi7anP2.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4L1UtxZ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/eCyVCmW.jpg https://i.imgur.com/b8XAjS5.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ygJSmxG.jpg View Quote That's from the book "The Black Rifle II". |
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