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WV, USA
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Posted: 6/24/2015 10:22:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WHSmithIV:
$1500 as a 'limited' budget? Well, I built my first rifle for $506.62 - I had a $500 budget. However, the sling and sling mounts are in the price and they weren't in the budget. BUIS sights were though. I had A.R.M.S BUIS sights on it. This is the rifle and everything on it was in the budget. I built it on a MAG Tactical Systems stripped lower receiver. A couple on-line buddies sent me a couple parts for free or it would have gone to close to $600. The AR 15 is not some long range sniper rifle with 5.56 ammo. It's a 'get the job done rifle' up to a few hundred yards. So, the typical AR 15 should definitely have iron sights. Besides, It's good to practice with them too. My piston driven AR has offset sights so as not to bother to remove the red dot and it's flip to side magnifier. http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/whsmith4th/P6263219_zps89521283.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WHSmithIV:
Originally Posted By nickforney:
Am curious what we agree to on if back up iron sights or BUIS are a necessary part of rifles that you build. Lets pretend a new shooter has a limited budget of say 1500 dollars and wanted to put together a 3-15 power scoped rifle and get it out shooting. Would you suggest they spend between 80 and 200 dollars on a set of BUIS or not. The rifle would be used for coyote hunting plinking and could be picked up to defend the house if needed. The owner has a handgun and is looking to put together this rifle. So BUIS or not and the fun part is explaining why you feel this way. $1500 as a 'limited' budget? Well, I built my first rifle for $506.62 - I had a $500 budget. However, the sling and sling mounts are in the price and they weren't in the budget. BUIS sights were though. I had A.R.M.S BUIS sights on it. This is the rifle and everything on it was in the budget. I built it on a MAG Tactical Systems stripped lower receiver. A couple on-line buddies sent me a couple parts for free or it would have gone to close to $600. The AR 15 is not some long range sniper rifle with 5.56 ammo. It's a 'get the job done rifle' up to a few hundred yards. So, the typical AR 15 should definitely have iron sights. Besides, It's good to practice with them too. My piston driven AR has offset sights so as not to bother to remove the red dot and it's flip to side magnifier. http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/whsmith4th/P6263219_zps89521283.jpg Who made your front sight? Is it pin able? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2015 11:24:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By nickforney: Am curious what we agree to on if back up iron sights or BUIS are a necessary part of rifles that you build. Lets pretend a new shooter has a limited budget of say 1500 dollars and wanted to put together a 3-15 power scoped rifle and get it out shooting. Would you suggest they spend between 80 and 200 dollars on a set of BUIS or not. The rifle would be used for coyote hunting plinking and could be picked up to defend the house if needed. The owner has a handgun and is looking to put together this rifle. So BUIS or not and the fun part is explaining why you feel this way. Well, for one....you won't be using that 3-15 power scope for home defense. You need two systems if you're only going to have one rifle and use it for hunting/plinking AND home defense. You need your hunting scope to have a QD mount on it, and you should have (imho) a red dot sight w/QD mount for home defense (BUIS's are optional here), and switch the two out whenever necessary. Keep in mind here that all home defense scenarios don't always allow you to find the time nor the adequate lighting to utilize iron sights, nor do they give you a good field-of-view as compared to a quality RDS. Also, for the HD rifle a good quality white light is a must (QD...of course). These are just my opinions....YMMV. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2015 2:51:35 PM EDT
[#3]
nope, people from the military have even posted on here about not ever using them in years of deployment other than zeroing at the range
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:30:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PopGunner:
Well, for one....you won't be using that 3-15 power scope for home defense. You need two systems if you're only going to have one rifle and use it for hunting/plinking AND home defense. You need your hunting scope to have a QD mount on it, and you should have (imho) a red dot sight w/QD mount for home defense (BUIS's are optional here), and switch the two out whenever necessary. Keep in mind here that all home defense scenarios don't always allow you to find the time nor the adequate lighting to utilize iron sights, nor do they give you a good field-of-view as compared to a quality RDS. Also, for the HD rifle a good quality white light is a must (QD...of course). These are just my opinions....YMMV. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PopGunner:
Originally Posted By nickforney:
Am curious what we agree to on if back up iron sights or BUIS are a necessary part of rifles that you build. Lets pretend a new shooter has a limited budget of say 1500 dollars and wanted to put together a 3-15 power scoped rifle and get it out shooting. Would you suggest they spend between 80 and 200 dollars on a set of BUIS or not. The rifle would be used for coyote hunting plinking and could be picked up to defend the house if needed. The owner has a handgun and is looking to put together this rifle. So BUIS or not and the fun part is explaining why you feel this way. Keep in mind here that all home defense scenarios don't always allow you to find the time nor the adequate lighting to utilize iron sights, nor do they give you a good field-of-view as compared to a quality RDS. Also, for the HD rifle a good quality white light is a must (QD...of course). These are just my opinions....YMMV. You run out of money very quickly if you have 1500 want quality equipment and add QD mounts and a red dot. How is it possible I cleared hundreds of houses with an ACOG on my rifle and a 3x optic and a bit of practice point shooting makes it completely un-usable for a home defense situation. The reason I posted this question was to get people thinking about the cookie cutter answers they always throw out with conventional wisdom. Seems most people have lost problem solving capabilities and forgotten that not everyone is going to go John Rambo mode and not every needs to collect a bunch of AR's to own them or to even use them well. For 1500 dollars I would much prefer someone get a quality barrel, trigger and optic. At that price point rings might make more sense than a QD mount simply because you could save about 100 dollars which could go into the optic itself. 150 dollars for buis could be a Geissele trigger...80 for a set of magpul back ups might be an ALG trigger which is also a great step up on a component the shooter would actually be able to quantify right away. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2015 5:50:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PopGunner]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney: You run out of money very quickly if you have 1500 want quality equipment and add QD mounts and a red dot. How is it possible I cleared hundreds of houses with an ACOG on my rifle and a 3x optic and a bit of practice point shooting makes it completely un-usable for a home defense situation. The reason I posted this question was to get people thinking about the cookie cutter answers they always throw out with conventional wisdom. Seems most people have lost problem solving capabilities and forgotten that not everyone is going to go John Rambo mode and not every needs to collect a bunch of AR's to own them or to even use them well. For 1500 dollars I would much prefer someone get a quality barrel, trigger and optic. At that price point rings might make more sense than a QD mount simply because you could save about 100 dollars which could go into the optic itself. 150 dollars for buis could be a Geissele trigger...80 for a set of magpul back ups might be an ALG trigger which is also a great step up on a component the shooter would actually be able to quantify right away. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney: Originally Posted By PopGunner: Originally Posted By nickforney: Am curious what we agree to on if back up iron sights or BUIS are a necessary part of rifles that you build. Lets pretend a new shooter has a limited budget of say 1500 dollars and wanted to put together a 3-15 power scoped rifle and get it out shooting. Would you suggest they spend between 80 and 200 dollars on a set of BUIS or not. The rifle would be used for coyote hunting plinking and could be picked up to defend the house if needed. The owner has a handgun and is looking to put together this rifle. So BUIS or not and the fun part is explaining why you feel this way. Keep in mind here that all home defense scenarios don't always allow you to find the time nor the adequate lighting to utilize iron sights, nor do they give you a good field-of-view as compared to a quality RDS. Also, for the HD rifle a good quality white light is a must (QD...of course). These are just my opinions....YMMV. You run out of money very quickly if you have 1500 want quality equipment and add QD mounts and a red dot. How is it possible I cleared hundreds of houses with an ACOG on my rifle and a 3x optic and a bit of practice point shooting makes it completely un-usable for a home defense situation. The reason I posted this question was to get people thinking about the cookie cutter answers they always throw out with conventional wisdom. Seems most people have lost problem solving capabilities and forgotten that not everyone is going to go John Rambo mode and not every needs to collect a bunch of AR's to own them or to even use them well. For 1500 dollars I would much prefer someone get a quality barrel, trigger and optic. At that price point rings might make more sense than a QD mount simply because you could save about 100 dollars which could go into the optic itself. 150 dollars for buis could be a Geissele trigger...80 for a set of magpul back ups might be an ALG trigger which is also a great step up on a component the shooter would actually be able to quantify right away. Well, the OP wants ONE rifle he can use with a 3-15 power scope (for coyote hunting) and he wants to also use it for home defense. If he is dead set in only owning one rifle for both applications, he would be better served by having an easily convertible system. These are NOT the choices I would make for myself...just trying to work within the given parameters of the OP. Personally, the only way I would do this is have two separate rifles. And....yours and my opinion of what constitutes quality may be different. I have a really nice home defense rifle I built with quality parts that I have less than $1,500 into. You have to just be patient while waiting for good deals on parts. |
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 6/27/2015 10:59:32 AM EDT
[#6]
For the extra money a BUIS is a no brainer. It'll fold down and work with just about any scope you want to use. The 3-15 scope for home defense isn't going to work well, get a quick detach mount and remove it for home defense. Whether you use iron sights or red-dot for home defense, PRACTICE WITH IT. Your budget leaves you a few options for a decent rifle and optics.
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Posted: 7/15/2015 9:07:55 AM EDT
[#7]
No buis for this application, stick the money into the rifle and/or scope. On my scoped ar I piggybacked a mrd for close range just because I because I already had it laying around. This is something he could later as budget allows.
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Posted: 7/15/2015 9:58:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Target and hunting rifles don't NEED irons.
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Posted: 7/15/2015 10:12:01 AM EDT
[#9]
I don't suppose you'd need BUIS for coyote hunting. My M700 varmints special doesn't have back up sights and I never needed them in the field.
But most of my AR15's aren't for hunting. If the optic is buggered, you may not be able to call it a day and go home/to the store, to get a different optic or rifle. So an AR 15 rifle I carry will have BUIS. |
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Posted: 7/15/2015 7:23:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tweeter:
Sights are contextual, and in this context back-up sights are not necessary. |
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Posted: 7/15/2015 8:21:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dpmmn]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bradpierson26: Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bradpierson26: Originally Posted By tweeter: Sights are contextual, and in this context back-up sights are not necessary. and Originally Posted By Lumpy196: Target and hunting rifles don't NEED irons. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 7/16/2015 1:20:33 AM EDT
[#12]
So...
We are taking a hunting rifle, that probably has a 20in or longer barrel, also likely to be a bull barrel type... Has a 3-15 variable scope... And want to use it for possible defense. OK sure it's possible, but the persons pistol (mentioned in the scenario) is more practical for defensive use. Even with quality return to zero quick detachable mounts, it's generally not advisable to be removing and reinstalling the scope frequently. So you are not going to remove the scope after every range or hunting trip. So you would need offset sights for them to be useful... But the question of why bother still remains. Its not generally a good idea to try using a hunting rifle in a defensive role, more so if it's a long barreled and heavy rifle. So skip the BUIS, and get another AR in a standard carbine setup for defense and general plinking. In the mean time of getting the funds, use your pistol for defensive roles. |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 7:07:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Marine6680:
So... We are taking a hunting rifle, that probably has a 20in or longer barrel, also likely to be a bull barrel type... Has a 3-15 variable scope... And want to use it for possible defense. OK sure it's possible, but the persons pistol (mentioned in the scenario) is more practical for defensive use. Even with quality return to zero quick detachable mounts, it's generally not advisable to be removing and reinstalling the scope frequently. So you are not going to remove the scope after every range or hunting trip. So you would need offset sights for them to be useful... But the question of why bother still remains. Its not generally a good idea to try using a hunting rifle in a defensive role, more so if it's a long barreled and heavy rifle. So skip the BUIS, and get another AR in a standard carbine setup for defense and general plinking. In the mean time of getting the funds, use your pistol for defensive roles. Dammit I started reading your post and I was like YES preach because you got the intent. Then you went and posted the red part and I smacked my head. How many AR owners leave an AR in the bedroom? I know I don't and most people I know have a safe that they lock rifles up in. I have my carry gun that goes in a bedside gun vault. Something is in the house at night I will grab my carry gun and figure it out from there. Many people use the AR15 as this pipe dream kill all the bad guys like rambo. I know some have corner vaults and other stuff like that but the number of people being shot during home invasions with a safely stored AR15 are slim. Why oh why wouldn't you just let someone rock an AR with a magnified optic and then invest that 600 bucks or what ever that you would have them spend on another AR on really quality ammo. You could get a thousand rounds of CBC 77 grain. You could learn a hell of a lot about the way your rifle shoots in all kinds of conditions with a thousand rounds. And if the proverbial shit were to hit the fan next Thursday I would much prefer having a stack of ammo that I know the dope for rather than a second rifle just because Iron sights are a good back up. Bottom line here is that I think far too many posters in the AR discussion and basics section reply with what they want rather than what the person asking the question wants. It is what it is I guess I just can't believe so many people do it rather than being helpful. |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 7:17:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
Dammit I started reading your post and I was like YES preach because you got the intent. Then you went and posted the red part and I smacked my head. How many AR owners leave an AR in the bedroom? I know I don't and most people I know have a safe that they lock rifles up in. I have my carry gun that goes in a bedside gun vault. Something is in the house at night I will grab my carry gun and figure it out from there. Many people use the AR15 as this pipe dream kill all the bad guys like rambo. I know some have corner vaults and other stuff like that but the number of people being shot during home invasions with a safely stored AR15 are slim. Why oh why wouldn't you just let someone rock an AR with a magnified optic and then invest that 600 bucks or what ever that you would have them spend on another AR on really quality ammo. You could get a thousand rounds of CBC 77 grain. You could learn a hell of a lot about the way your rifle shoots in all kinds of conditions with a thousand rounds. And if the proverbial shit were to hit the fan next Thursday I would much prefer having a stack of ammo that I know the dope for rather than a second rifle just because Iron sights are a good back up. Bottom line here is that I think far too many posters in the AR discussion and basics section reply with what they want rather than what the person asking the question wants. It is what it is I guess I just can't believe so many people do it rather than being helpful. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By Marine6680:
So... We are taking a hunting rifle, that probably has a 20in or longer barrel, also likely to be a bull barrel type... Has a 3-15 variable scope... And want to use it for possible defense. OK sure it's possible, but the persons pistol (mentioned in the scenario) is more practical for defensive use. Even with quality return to zero quick detachable mounts, it's generally not advisable to be removing and reinstalling the scope frequently. So you are not going to remove the scope after every range or hunting trip. So you would need offset sights for them to be useful... But the question of why bother still remains. Its not generally a good idea to try using a hunting rifle in a defensive role, more so if it's a long barreled and heavy rifle. So skip the BUIS, and get another AR in a standard carbine setup for defense and general plinking. In the mean time of getting the funds, use your pistol for defensive roles. Dammit I started reading your post and I was like YES preach because you got the intent. Then you went and posted the red part and I smacked my head. How many AR owners leave an AR in the bedroom? I know I don't and most people I know have a safe that they lock rifles up in. I have my carry gun that goes in a bedside gun vault. Something is in the house at night I will grab my carry gun and figure it out from there. Many people use the AR15 as this pipe dream kill all the bad guys like rambo. I know some have corner vaults and other stuff like that but the number of people being shot during home invasions with a safely stored AR15 are slim. Why oh why wouldn't you just let someone rock an AR with a magnified optic and then invest that 600 bucks or what ever that you would have them spend on another AR on really quality ammo. You could get a thousand rounds of CBC 77 grain. You could learn a hell of a lot about the way your rifle shoots in all kinds of conditions with a thousand rounds. And if the proverbial shit were to hit the fan next Thursday I would much prefer having a stack of ammo that I know the dope for rather than a second rifle just because Iron sights are a good back up. Bottom line here is that I think far too many posters in the AR discussion and basics section reply with what they want rather than what the person asking the question wants. It is what it is I guess I just can't believe so many people do it rather than being helpful. That happens in a lot of the sub forums. Not just here but you are complete correct in that statement. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 7/17/2015 3:36:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Yes.
So this is an opinion poll and not a 'let's examine everyone's answers to determine who the boneheads are poll', right? Then I'll offer mine. I just posted pics of my first build... no BUIS. But only because I'm waiting for MFT run theirs in FOL. In the mean time, if my hundred dollar optic goes down, I may as well close my eyes and throw a rock, regardless of the role my rifle was built to fulfill. And that's why yes. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 3:43:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mbadran:
Yes. So this is an opinion poll and not a 'let's examine everyone's answers to determine who the boneheads are poll', right? Then I'll offer mine. I just posted pics of my first build... no BUIS. But only because I'm waiting for MFT run theirs in FOL. In the mean time, if my hundred dollar optic goes down, I may as well close my eyes and throw a rock, regardless of the role my rifle was built to fulfill. And that's why yes. Did you read the OP? 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 4:14:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Did you read the OP? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By mbadran:
Yes. So this is an opinion poll and not a 'let's examine everyone's answers to determine who the boneheads are poll', right? Then I'll offer mine. I just posted pics of my first build... no BUIS. But only because I'm waiting for MFT run theirs in FOL. In the mean time, if my hundred dollar optic goes down, I may as well close my eyes and throw a rock, regardless of the role my rifle was built to fulfill. And that's why yes. Did you read the OP? No it's ok he posted pictures of his first build so you know he is legit. Maybe I will take my 6.5 cm AR to the range this weekend to point shoot for a while. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 4:21:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Nameless_Hobo]
[#18]
I voted no. I don't think irons are as important as Arfcom makes them out to be IF, and that's a big if, you buy quality optics. I use iron sights on my rifles because I like to keep practiced with them, but I don't feel a compulsion to have them.
I honestly think you're going to see the end of BUIS in our lifetimes, as optics become more and more mature technology. Originally Posted By SD307:
i LIKE THE GG&G MAD , the magpul buis and the matech. I do not like the LM T KAC 300, KAC 600 or a Carry handle. You seriously like the GG&G and Matech better than the KAC 300 or 600?  Why?
ETA: If I was trying to do this built, I would buy a PSA upper/lower with parts kits, and spend a little more on a higher end barrel, an ALG rail, and then spend the rest of the money on a used scope of high quality and a mount. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 4:27:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
No it's ok he posted pictures of his first build so you know he is legit. Maybe I will take my 6.5 cm AR to the range this weekend to point shoot for a while. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By mbadran:
Yes. So this is an opinion poll and not a 'let's examine everyone's answers to determine who the boneheads are poll', right? Then I'll offer mine. I just posted pics of my first build... no BUIS. But only because I'm waiting for MFT run theirs in FOL. In the mean time, if my hundred dollar optic goes down, I may as well close my eyes and throw a rock, regardless of the role my rifle was built to fulfill. And that's why yes. Did you read the OP? No it's ok he posted pictures of his first build so you know he is legit. Maybe I will take my 6.5 cm AR to the range this weekend to point shoot for a while. I wonder how many people think point shooting is bump-firing from the hip. 
These rambo/scarface movies teach good techniques to die. Idk if there would be enough content for a thread, but I know the few people that actually strive for info in AR Basics could probably profit from a point shoot tutorial. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 6:10:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shadowblade232:
Better to have and not need than need but not have. I totally agree with you!...... |
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USA
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Posted: 7/17/2015 7:43:17 PM EDT
[#21]
I voted 'yes' before reading the conditions, thinking 'Sure, on a red-dot rifle, BUIS is a good idea.' But questionable on a hunting or target rifle. I have a 16" middy with fixed stock and a 4X ACOG with those rudimentary sights on top. But, I have zeroed them at 50 yds - if I ever needed them, they would do the job. The front sight is also Tritium (there's nothing like a real ACOG).
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TN, USA
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:02:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Marine6680]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
Dammit I started reading your post and I was like YES preach because you got the intent. Then you went and posted the red part and I smacked my head. How many AR owners leave an AR in the bedroom? I know I don't and most people I know have a safe that they lock rifles up in. I have my carry gun that goes in a bedside gun vault. Something is in the house at night I will grab my carry gun and figure it out from there. Well... The red part was more along the lines of... If you feel the need to use an AR for defensive uses, then get one set up properly for it. If not, just use your pistol. So it's more trying to say, "don't try to shoehorn a hunting rifle into a defensive role". In reality, BUIS are not really needed even in a defensive rifle. Because in home distances don't really need them. You can point shoot, or look through the bad optic if need be, you will be accurate enough. BUIS is for longer range of 25yds or more, use if the optic dies on you. And I used to keep an AR in my bedroom... But now I have a 12ga pump. |
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Posted: 7/18/2015 10:47:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Marine6680:
Well... The red part was more along the lines of... If you feel the need to use an AR for defensive uses, then get one set up properly for it. If not, just use your pistol. So it's more trying to say, "don't try to shoehorn a hunting rifle into a defensive role". In reality, BUIS are not really needed even in a defensive rifle. Because in home distances don't really need them. You can point shoot, or look through the bad optic if need be, you will be accurate enough. BUIS is for longer range of 25yds or more, use if the optic dies on you. And I used to keep an AR in my bedroom... But now I have a 12ga pump. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Marine6680:
Originally Posted By nickforney:
Dammit I started reading your post and I was like YES preach because you got the intent. Then you went and posted the red part and I smacked my head. How many AR owners leave an AR in the bedroom? I know I don't and most people I know have a safe that they lock rifles up in. I have my carry gun that goes in a bedside gun vault. Something is in the house at night I will grab my carry gun and figure it out from there. Well... The red part was more along the lines of... If you feel the need to use an AR for defensive uses, then get one set up properly for it. If not, just use your pistol. So it's more trying to say, "don't try to shoehorn a hunting rifle into a defensive role". In reality, BUIS are not really needed even in a defensive rifle. Because in home distances don't really need them. You can point shoot, or look through the bad optic if need be, you will be accurate enough. BUIS is for longer range of 25yds or more, use if the optic dies on you. And I used to keep an AR in my bedroom... But now I have a 12ga pump. I figured as much. You ought to post more often you have sense and we often lack that around here. We see far too often that people say things like better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Even on a defensive rifle as you have said it really isn't as big of an issue as most people would point out. On instinct alone most shooters can accurately point shoot man sized targets out to 25 yards. It really comes down to pointing a stick that is a few feet long in the direction of something you want to destroy and then pulling the trigger. People forget that the US Army and the Marines both have BUIS on rifles but thanks to the ACOG fighting optics they are no co-witness or in a position to be quickly put into action for home defense or similar things. If the optic were completely destroyed you could remove it and use your iron sights but the scenario I gave said for home defense. That to me means inside of 25 yards for most purposes. Maybe you have a really big living area or something like that but FBI data generally sticks closer to 7 yard engagements. I think a good number of people need to hit the range put a target at 7 and 15 yards and see how point shooting works for them. Soon they will see what the guys shooting close in Vietnam and every engagement after when m16-m4 iron sights were used. The guys report either using the large rear and ghosting the sights like that or simply pointing and shooting. (this can also be seen as bad considering hit rates for Vietnam were estimated to be very very low) |
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Posted: 7/18/2015 11:26:24 AM EDT
[#24]
They should go out and do the CSAT Rifle Standards with an optic/RDS and Irons and see where the difference is.
I'm post up mine on Monday. Gonna try to get in both RDS and Irons. |
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Posted: 7/18/2015 11:36:19 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
They should go out and do the CSAT Rifle Standards with an optic/RDS and Irons and see where the difference is. I'm post up mine on Monday. Gonna try to get in both RDS and Irons. is there a format for the target on those? Can I use an IDPA target? |
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Posted: 7/18/2015 11:57:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BillyDoubleU]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
is there a format for the target on those? Can I use an IDPA target? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
They should go out and do the CSAT Rifle Standards with an optic/RDS and Irons and see where the difference is. I'm post up mine on Monday. Gonna try to get in both RDS and Irons. is there a format for the target on those? Can I use an IDPA target? IPSC/IDPA/USPSA/CSAT I don't really care personally but for scoring the USPSA/IPSC/IDPA are easier. ETA:the crutch of that challenge/drill thread is that it's videoed. Timer preferred  (required for score)
All the rules, which their really aren't many, are in the OP. ETA: I cut the video requirement and kept the CSAT open for another 2 weeks. I brought it back by popular demand. |
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Posted: 7/18/2015 12:00:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
I figured as much. You ought to post more often you have sense and we often lack that around here. We see far too often that people say things like better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Even on a defensive rifle as you have said it really isn't as big of an issue as most people would point out. On instinct alone most shooters can accurately point shoot man sized targets out to 25 yards. It really comes down to pointing a stick that is a few feet long in the direction of something you want to destroy and then pulling the trigger. People forget that the US Army and the Marines both have BUIS on rifles but thanks to the ACOG fighting optics they are no co-witness or in a position to be quickly put into action for home defense or similar things. If the optic were completely destroyed you could remove it and use your iron sights but the scenario I gave said for home defense. That to me means inside of 25 yards for most purposes. Maybe you have a really big living area or something like that but FBI data generally sticks closer to 7 yard engagements. I think a good number of people need to hit the range put a target at 7 and 15 yards and see how point shooting works for them. Soon they will see what the guys shooting close in Vietnam and every engagement after when m16-m4 iron sights were used. The guys report either using the large rear and ghosting the sights like that or simply pointing and shooting. (this can also be seen as bad considering hit rates for Vietnam were estimated to be very very low) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By Marine6680:
Originally Posted By nickforney:
Dammit I started reading your post and I was like YES preach because you got the intent. Then you went and posted the red part and I smacked my head. How many AR owners leave an AR in the bedroom? I know I don't and most people I know have a safe that they lock rifles up in. I have my carry gun that goes in a bedside gun vault. Something is in the house at night I will grab my carry gun and figure it out from there. Well... The red part was more along the lines of... If you feel the need to use an AR for defensive uses, then get one set up properly for it. If not, just use your pistol. So it's more trying to say, "don't try to shoehorn a hunting rifle into a defensive role". In reality, BUIS are not really needed even in a defensive rifle. Because in home distances don't really need them. You can point shoot, or look through the bad optic if need be, you will be accurate enough. BUIS is for longer range of 25yds or more, use if the optic dies on you. And I used to keep an AR in my bedroom... But now I have a 12ga pump. I figured as much. You ought to post more often you have sense and we often lack that around here. We see far too often that people say things like better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Even on a defensive rifle as you have said it really isn't as big of an issue as most people would point out. On instinct alone most shooters can accurately point shoot man sized targets out to 25 yards. It really comes down to pointing a stick that is a few feet long in the direction of something you want to destroy and then pulling the trigger. People forget that the US Army and the Marines both have BUIS on rifles but thanks to the ACOG fighting optics they are no co-witness or in a position to be quickly put into action for home defense or similar things. If the optic were completely destroyed you could remove it and use your iron sights but the scenario I gave said for home defense. That to me means inside of 25 yards for most purposes. Maybe you have a really big living area or something like that but FBI data generally sticks closer to 7 yard engagements. I think a good number of people need to hit the range put a target at 7 and 15 yards and see how point shooting works for them. Soon they will see what the guys shooting close in Vietnam and every engagement after when m16-m4 iron sights were used. The guys report either using the large rear and ghosting the sights like that or simply pointing and shooting. (this can also be seen as bad considering hit rates for Vietnam were estimated to be very very low) The CQM stuff I got in basic (benning '05) was to use the tip of the FSP as the aiming point. Works very well out to 25m, though not shooting operator groups or nothing. I admittedly don't shoot cqm like that with anything other than my A2 sbr. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 7/18/2015 1:31:40 PM EDT
[#28]
If the OP's handgun has rails then my BUIS money would go for a light for it. I have BUIS's but they are behind RDS's.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 7/19/2015 12:24:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nickforney:
You ought to post more often you have sense and we often lack that around here. That's high praise/compliment on the Internet. So thanks. 
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Posted: 7/21/2015 1:15:52 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Redleg37:
I would at a minimum pick up some cheap BUIS from Amazon. Even if they suck they are better than nothing. They start at $25 or so. This is what I have done on a few rifles. I tend to think BUIS are overrated in general. They are usually the first thing to break on a rifle, especially the rear folding sights. While optics are extremely durable/reliable, if you move through the brush or mud without lense covers, it can take a few seconds to get it cleaned up and back into operation. When seconds matter, it could be quicker to flip up the BUIS than to clean the crud out of your optic. |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 3:20:37 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
The CQM stuff I got in basic (benning '05) was to use the tip of the FSP as the aiming point. Works very well out to 25m, though not shooting operator groups or nothing. I admittedly don't shoot cqm like that with anything other than my A2 sbr. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
Originally Posted By nickforney:
Originally Posted By Marine6680:
Originally Posted By nickforney:
Dammit I started reading your post and I was like YES preach because you got the intent. Then you went and posted the red part and I smacked my head. How many AR owners leave an AR in the bedroom? I know I don't and most people I know have a safe that they lock rifles up in. I have my carry gun that goes in a bedside gun vault. Something is in the house at night I will grab my carry gun and figure it out from there. Well... The red part was more along the lines of... If you feel the need to use an AR for defensive uses, then get one set up properly for it. If not, just use your pistol. So it's more trying to say, "don't try to shoehorn a hunting rifle into a defensive role". In reality, BUIS are not really needed even in a defensive rifle. Because in home distances don't really need them. You can point shoot, or look through the bad optic if need be, you will be accurate enough. BUIS is for longer range of 25yds or more, use if the optic dies on you. And I used to keep an AR in my bedroom... But now I have a 12ga pump. I figured as much. You ought to post more often you have sense and we often lack that around here. We see far too often that people say things like better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Even on a defensive rifle as you have said it really isn't as big of an issue as most people would point out. On instinct alone most shooters can accurately point shoot man sized targets out to 25 yards. It really comes down to pointing a stick that is a few feet long in the direction of something you want to destroy and then pulling the trigger. People forget that the US Army and the Marines both have BUIS on rifles but thanks to the ACOG fighting optics they are no co-witness or in a position to be quickly put into action for home defense or similar things. If the optic were completely destroyed you could remove it and use your iron sights but the scenario I gave said for home defense. That to me means inside of 25 yards for most purposes. Maybe you have a really big living area or something like that but FBI data generally sticks closer to 7 yard engagements. I think a good number of people need to hit the range put a target at 7 and 15 yards and see how point shooting works for them. Soon they will see what the guys shooting close in Vietnam and every engagement after when m16-m4 iron sights were used. The guys report either using the large rear and ghosting the sights like that or simply pointing and shooting. (this can also be seen as bad considering hit rates for Vietnam were estimated to be very very low) The CQM stuff I got in basic (benning '05) was to use the tip of the FSP as the aiming point. Works very well out to 25m, though not shooting operator groups or nothing. I admittedly don't shoot cqm like that with anything other than my A2 sbr. Was this rifle equipped with an M150 (ACOG) or carry handle? Just curious. |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 4:41:06 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Was this rifle equipped with an M150 (ACOG) or carry handle? Just curious. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
The CQM stuff I got in basic (benning '05) was to use the tip of the FSP as the aiming point. Works very well out to 25m, though not shooting operator groups or nothing. I admittedly don't shoot cqm like that with anything other than my A2 sbr. Was this rifle equipped with an M150 (ACOG) or carry handle? Just curious. Carry Handle. M16A1 re stamped to A2. My SBR (apartment defense gun) Is carry handle and A2 FSB as well. |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 11:50:34 AM EDT
[#33]
Cut $87 out of other parts to make some MBUS happen.
Why? Learn irons first. Having irons on the long gun doesn't matter for hunting, but if it is being used in an HD situation 3x power may be too much |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 2:16:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
Carry Handle. M16A1 re stamped to A2. My SBR (apartment defense gun) Is carry handle and A2 FSB as well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
The CQM stuff I got in basic (benning '05) was to use the tip of the FSP as the aiming point. Works very well out to 25m, though not shooting operator groups or nothing. I admittedly don't shoot cqm like that with anything other than my A2 sbr. Was this rifle equipped with an M150 (ACOG) or carry handle? Just curious. Carry Handle. M16A1 re stamped to A2. My SBR (apartment defense gun) Is carry handle and A2 FSB as well. Reason I ask is I'm wondering if the Army teaches the same tip of the FSP point shooting even on an RCO equipped weapon, or with the fiber optic tube or just point the stick like Nick said |
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Posted: 7/22/2015 11:19:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: CrazyWhiteGuy]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Reason I ask is I'm wondering if the Army teaches the same tip of the FSP point shooting even on an RCO equipped weapon, or with the fiber optic tube or just point the stick like Nick said Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By CrazyWhiteGuy:
The CQM stuff I got in basic (benning '05) was to use the tip of the FSP as the aiming point. Works very well out to 25m, though not shooting operator groups or nothing. I admittedly don't shoot cqm like that with anything other than my A2 sbr. Was this rifle equipped with an M150 (ACOG) or carry handle? Just curious. Carry Handle. M16A1 re stamped to A2. My SBR (apartment defense gun) Is carry handle and A2 FSB as well. Reason I ask is I'm wondering if the Army teaches the same tip of the FSP point shooting even on an RCO equipped weapon, or with the fiber optic tube or just point the stick like Nick said Point the stick I assume, I remember that one as well. Probably why I still hold the VFG with a thumbless grip and my pointer finger forward.
I don't think FSP tip would work with the acog though. Also to add, in the Army at least "what I was taught" usually means what the NCO with the most experience told people to do. All the basic stuff is in the FM, everything else depended on where you went and who was in charge of training. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 7/22/2015 11:24:54 PM EDT
[#36]
The Op says he has a handgun. I would prefer a good combat handgun for home defense over a heavy-ass bull barreled, large objective scoped precision AR, offset irons or no. My advice would be to focus just on the precision/coyote role instead of trying to build it to satisfy two very disparate roles that have many competing considerations; especially when you already have a viable option for defense. And for a pure coyote gun, no, iron sights are not necessary, and the money would be better spent elsewhere.
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Posted: 8/16/2015 1:02:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Krink]
[#37]
if you really dont want to spend the $$ on them then go cheaper and get a Magpul set,I have a couple sets and they work fine and are affordable.
maybe a primary arms red dot with an offset mount possibly more useful/practical than BU irons |
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USA
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:08:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RegisteredTM]
[#38]
Originally Posted By nickforney:
Am curious what we agree to on if back up iron sights or BUIS are a necessary part of rifles that you build. Lets pretend a new shooter has a limited budget of say 1500 dollars and wanted to put together a 3-15 power scoped rifle and get it out shooting. Would you suggest they spend between 80 and 200 dollars on a set of BUIS or not. The rifle would be used for coyote hunting plinking and could be picked up to defend the house if needed. The owner has a handgun and is looking to put together this rifle. So BUIS or not and the fun part is explaining why you feel this way. I voted yes to BUIS based upon what is highlighted in red. If I were to have a rifle that would be potentially used for HD, I would not want, in an ideal situation, to use a 3-15x for that purpose. I doubt anybody has that long of a hallway in their house. Sure, 3x could work but it doesn't sound like the individual would train enough to be proficient at cqb with 3x (purely speculative and forgive me if I am wrong). I would put the glass in a nice qd mount and when I'm not at the range plinking, I'd remove it for it's secondary task of HD and be able to pop up the BUIS for that role. As others have noted, it is possible to simply point in shoot, but from a comfort stand point, I personally would prefer to have something in my line of sight even if I'm not lining everything up. I would also recommend the individual obtain a weapon mounted light for that duty. As for the part in blue, one needn't spend so much on BUIS. Apparently, the polymer Magpul MBUS have served many very well and can be had at, what I would consider, very reasonable prices if one were to peruse the EE. |
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Posted: 9/13/2015 7:48:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Crash41984: I have Troy BUIS on all of my guns that have optics... I have not zeroed the BUIS on any of my guns that have optics. I'm an asshole. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/14/2017 6:42:40 AM EDT
[#40]
Old thread, but I just have to say it. Iron sights on rifles are so last century. Let the dinosaurs rage. Spend the money and install a decent MRDS sight on an offset. MUCH faster and you’ll still be able to aim in low light and after your eyes age-out. And with your primary optic being a non-1X, the MRDS will provide you with lightning fast up-close aiming in all circumstances. You won’t believe the difference.
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CO, USA
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Posted: 12/14/2017 4:26:00 PM EDT
[#41]
Short answer: No, with a scope BUIS are probably going to go to waste.
Long answer: People like to say that for a battle rifle or HD rifle it would be silly not to have BUIS. However, the reality is almost none of us will ever actually need a battle rifle or HD gun. In the extremely unlikely event anyone did, the scope would almost certainly be sufficient. If not, you can still point a rifle at close range effectively anyway. That said, I actually did have a reason to use my BUIS. I was out shooting for fun and even though I thought my scope was properly sighted I couldn't hit anything. I got frustrated and removed the scope and used my BUIS and was able to hit what I was aiming at. If I didn't have the BUIS I would have had to sight the rifle again and I wasn't really in a situation where that was practical. So, while you likely don't need them, can't hurt to have them. Maybe just buy them down the road. |
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Posted: 12/14/2017 4:44:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Just thinking about it now.. I don't think there's an AR accessory mounted by so many that's actually used so little.
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WI, USA
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Posted: 12/14/2017 6:07:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Well here's my story. I probably will never use my AR for HD unless it's SHTF time and I have a handgun or two for that purpose. I've got 1ea. AR w/2 uppers. One upper is what I consider my "precision" upper for 200 to 600yd. shooting and another upper is used for general plinking/shooting. My "tactical" upper, initially has a Bushnell RDS and Magpul BUIS on it due to the fact that I liked the idea of having BUIS to co-witness with the RDS just in case the battery crapped out (I carry an extra battery in the VFG), not like I'm an "operator" or anything even close to one, but I do shoot my BUIS out to 100yds. every now and again(eyesight not good enough for 600yds.LoL
 ). But then I ran into a good deal on a 1x6x24 Illum. reticle scope and now that's on that upper now along w/BUIS. So it might be a little overkill but I can see their purpose when used with any optic that has a battery that could take a dump at any time. Every shooter should start out with open sights at first and then get into optics later. Just my 2cents.
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Posted: 12/14/2017 6:12:50 PM EDT
[#44]
I would put the extra cash into a better optic
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Posted: 12/14/2017 6:32:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Every time I shoot my best rifle, my Mark 12 Mod 1, I make it a point to dismount the scope and run some rounds downrange using the BUIS, to maintain proficiency with irons, and also,
because that BUIS pair set me back about 450 stinking dollars so I'd better get some use out of it! It's possible to build a complete AR for less than the price of my BUIS. It's a thought I won't allow myself to forget. Or can't forget. Or both.
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Posted: 12/14/2017 7:37:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MirrorMirror:
because that BUIS pair set me back about 450 stinking dollars so I'd better get some use out of it! |
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Posted: 12/14/2017 7:40:05 PM EDT
[#47]
For a VPO I would say it isn't 100% needed. I say no.
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Posted: 12/14/2017 10:46:23 PM EDT
[#48]
RIP Forney.
I have a Mk12 PRI BUIS just siting in the parts bin. I now have x2 ARs with no irons. Almost had x4, but my two game guns got offset irons because they're cheaper than RDS. |
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Posted: 12/14/2017 11:01:37 PM EDT
[#49]
SHIT HAPPENS! BUIS needed just in case. It's a lightweight addition to the weapon anyway.
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Posted: 12/14/2017 11:04:46 PM EDT
[#50]
For "go-to" rifles. 100%
For hobby rifles. Meh. |
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