Who cares?
This point is constantly made, and it's irrelevant. It IS 2015, and 2015 is litigious. You shoot the wrong person because you're too cool for a HD light, you're at minimum going to have to live with that, and lose a civil suit. More likely going to be manslaughter and jail time.
Positive identification is more important than the $60 it costs to get a bare bones light setup on a rifle.



You're here, you obviously have access to information on proper light use. Why not make use of it? Seriously, learning to use modern equipment is just as important as learning to shoot accurately. Learning how to use a light is cheap, there's no good reason to not have the skill set.
Why would you possibly desire to make yourself less useful in a self defense situation?


There's a reason people push the proper use of weaponlights here, and a reason they're issued to and used by everyone who shoots for a living these days. It's not because people like giving Surefire 300 bucks jus' cuz.

I have had an AR with a Surefire 500A on it since that light was first developed back in 98-99, I have had plenty of time to get familiar with it over the past nearly 20 years.

It isnt that I am saying I do not think lights are useful.

I AM VERY MUCH REQUIRED to use them in the course of work duties.   Department low light training along with having been on alarm calls or clearing a house.   I do have experience with using a light.    Knowing how it makes me feel I do my best to use it sparingly.    Long gun light amps me up more than off handed light with handgun or even a mounted light on handgun.

But when it comes to my home, like I said I dont have much desire to clear my house.   I dont desire to use a light either unless it is as a decoy.

I think you are making way more assumptions here than you need to.   I simply know what I value more.    If it is a close race I take optic before light.


/edit

I will absolutely agree on the following.

Proper mindset and proper training are absolutely necessary for using a weapon mounted light.    Yes it is important to have.   Could be that a good light, regardless of weapon type, should be the first thing that every new gun owner have access to.   I have recommended that on multiple occasions.  

There is just a difference between me at work and me at home.


There was a time when I was younger and lived at home with my parents where no shit the longest indoor shot I may have had to have taken was close to 25 yards(not feet).   The open floor plan of a very large house put me on the opposite side of a split wing house from my parents.    That was a situation where the most likely point of entry for an intruder was close to my parents room.    Not only did the light make tons of sense(more sense than an optic) but the optic did as well.   It was also a huge potential reality that actual room clearing would be necessary.   Yeah, light was more important and possibly most important.

Things have changed a ton since then.    Now I live very much alone in a house 1/4 the size of that house.   I will be lucky if during a break in I have time to wake up and grab my handgun and get to a place I can defend from.    Sorry but to hell with the light(weapon mounted X300 or not) if I dont have time then I dont have time.   Could be the only thing I am gonna worry about is as good a sight picture as I can manage as I am literally and figuratively shitting the bed.

As for the current convo, IMO a light is more important than an optic. And I think an optic is pretty damn important too. If I didn't have my EOTech's, I can still use irons, and I can still point shoot. What I cannot do is see in the dark. And that is why a light is IMO, more important.

As for the people that think irons are a better option than an RDS in a defensive role, I don't think they have a clue what they're talking about. I'm skilled with irons, but it takes a FRACTION of the time for me to get the 65 MOA ring of the EOTech on target than it does to line up front sight, rear sight, and target. And for those that think irons and no light are the best option in a defensive role, should the situation arise without ambient light surrounding you (AKA in the dark,) RIP.

Light>optic
Optic>irons

No light = blind in the dark.

So you know the benefits provided by a light, but for some reason, it "amps you up more" because it's mounted in a convenient location? Forgive me for saying this, but if the placement of a light triggers you to be too aggressive to sensibly respond to a situation, you need to seek help. I'm not even trying to be an asshole, that's not normal or healthy, man.

I do agree that an optic is important, but a light is equally, if not more so, important. Lights are also significantly cheaper. I can have a light set up that is reliable and bright for well under a hundred bucks, and that's without shopping around or buying used. There's literally not a single good reason to not have the capability to illuminate, PID, and engage a threat in the fastest, most efficient manner possible. Especially since you're anticipating being half asleep, likely scared, and definitely suffering from adrenaline while you try to take up a defensible position. Regardless of what your plans are, being able to identify a target is extremely important. Even (Or, in the world we live in now, I should say 'especially') a cop shooting someone he shouldn't shoot while off duty is going to end poorly for the homeowner who thought he was shooting in self defense.

The latter point is why I feel it's so important to make sure the benefits of a properly equipped rifle are discussed as often as possible. The last thing that needs to happen is more dangerous myths be allowed to thrive in the gun world, such as "lights just give away your position, don't use one," putting new shooters at risk of getting themselves killed or put in jail.

or during the ban having 15+ rifles that weren't all pre ban
sell most of them and buy a m16
consolidate down to one that i always shoot

Jesus christ will you stop it already?   I dont mean jittery and ready to shoot everything in the goddamn room.   Simply that it can be intense clearing an unknown building, where someone might be laying in wait to ambush you, and where a simple screw up with a light can get you or your partner killed.

I have done force on force simunitions training in low light during one of our annual training cycles.  It was in fact some of the best training I have received in the past 7 years other than active shooter training.

Fact is we dont get enough of it.   Most of us end up getting the experience from using what little training we get in real life scenarios on call.    From the training, guess which method had the highest survival?   Going lights out and ambushing the threat letting it come to you rather than you goto it.   Knowing that, knowing that it may be the tactic a burglar may be using against us, yeah you get a bit amped at the thought somebody may be letting you come to them.

But go ahead and read into that however you want and make some more flippant assumptions.

I dont think I am the one with the problem here.   Preach your opinion, it is a differing view point, even a good one that 95 times out of a 100 I may even agree with it.    But your know it all crap and condescending assumptions are tiring.

I am done with replying to any more of your know it all assumptions or criticism.   Disagree with my decision in my home all you want.   It is my home and my decision.

Good post, my rifle has a Proctor sling, DD A1.5, and Surefire G2x tactical mounted in an IWC SMC MOE mount.

I just retired in December after 31 years in law enforcement (in a huge city) and agree with your sentiments regarding the light and clearing a room/building. For me, it's one of those "you always revert back to your training" type deals and I can guarantee you when were never clearing buildings with a long gun of any sort on standard radio calls like you mentioned. It was always done with my sidearm and my Streamlight.





Jesus christ will you stop it already?   I dont mean jittery and ready to shoot everything in the goddamn room.   Simply that it can be intense clearing an unknown building, where someone might be laying in wait to ambush you, and where a simple screw up with a light can get you or your partner killed.

I have done force on force simunitions training in low light during one of our annual training cycles.  It was in fact some of the best training I have received in the past 7 years other than active shooter training.

Fact is we dont get enough of it.   Most of us end up getting the experience from using what little training we get in real life scenarios on call.    From the training, guess which method had the highest survival?   Going lights out and ambushing the threat letting it come to you rather than you goto it.   Knowing that, knowing that it may be the tactic a burglar may be using against us, yeah you get a bit amped at the thought somebody may be letting you come to them.

But go ahead and read into that however you want and make some more flippant assumptions.

I dont think I am the one with the problem here.   Preach your opinion, it is a differing view point, even a good one that 95 times out of a 100 I may even agree with it.    But your know it all crap and condescending assumptions are tiring.

I am done with replying to any more of your know it all assumptions or criticism.   Disagree with my decision in my home all you want.   It is my home and my decision.

so what is this a throw away account or something?

I'm not even trying to insult you or make assumptions. I'm replying to what you're saying...the clarity of what you want to communicate apparently isn't there. What you were posting, quite frankly, came off as abnormal and unstable. What would you think if someone told you holding a gun "amped them up too much?" or "using a seatbelt amped them up too much?" Maybe instead of getting angry, you should step back and look at what you're saying from a different perspective. Seriously, nothing I'm saying is unreasonable or intended to insult you.

That being said, I don't particularly care if that's insulting to you. I'm not in control of your emotions.

I will keep advocating for the most responsible position possible, as I said in the previous post, it's important to make sure the best ideas are presented in a forum designed for people new to the AR15 and new to shooting in general as often as possible. Whether or not you intend to "ambushing the threat" has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about. Identifying the threat before you "ambush" it is absolutely and utterly of vital importance regardless of your situation. I don't want someone that comes to this forum seeking advice to wind up in jail because they shot a drunk than stumbled in the house/their kid sneaking back in/their wife coming back from the bathroom/the old guy down the street with Alzheimer, or dead because they couldn't tell the difference between a home invader and the previously mentioned drunk, because they listened to shooting advice that has been out of date for decades at this point.

Failed quote edit

Then since neither of us are asking too much, next time ask for clarification.  If my post was in some way lazy I am fine with being called out on it but try it another way.   All of this simply because I said I value an optic over a light.    They are both important but for me if it were between one or the other, I choose optic first and still do.

And since you are correct, about the intentions of this section of the forum, there is admittedly a lot of truth to the priority of what is important on a rifle and where to spend money or what to spend it on first.      This argument can be used for others to read and learn from as they see fit.   I am fine with being in the minority in that in a near dead heat for me, I prefer the optic over a light, and deciding how to use a firearm with or without a light in my own home.

From the OP



I gave mine based on personal preference.     You gave yours.

To be honest, the most bizarre part about this whole exchange is we mostly agree.
I do think an optic should be on the list along with a light. As the guy in the article said, it's such a massive addition to ease of use and capability that I also think there's no good reason to not use an optic, as well. Even if all you can afford is a Holosun, you're better off with a Holosun that will probably work when you need it and a set of BUIS than just a set of irons to start with. Of course, I think that one should use every single advantage available, light, optic, well thought out and good quality training, high end ammo, quality rifle, suppressor, NVG, IR laser, etc.

Great rifle.  Based off of what we have talked about the next logical step is a red dot.  The rifle as you have it now can do everything from shooting during the day at multiple targets from close in to suppressing targets at longer ranges.  It is also fully capable to be used at intermediate ranges at night.  The great thing about your rifle is you don't have a bunch of cosmetic upgrades that aren't needed.  I laugh when I see someone with an expensive magpul or other brand stock as well as the grip and then a fore end which could add up to the same price as a red dot or light.

I had to read your posts a few times to come to this conclusion, but by "rifle mounted light amps you up" do you mean you're afraid it would give away your position ? That's the only conclusion I could come up with because I didn't really understand what you meant.

But if that's the case, I feel the same way about a light as I do with guns altogether.
-"Rather have and not need than need and not have"

There are also lights with lock-out features that keep it from accidentally being activated if that would give you peace of mind.

For me personally, I'm more afraid of not being able to see a damn thing/I.D. threats than I am of my light giving away my pos.

I hear you.

I dont disagree with you and for the wide majority of people your points are perfectly on track both in terms of training and in terms of liability.   My original post was simply my own opinion on what I personally favor.

It is a near dead heat for me but optic is what I prefer first.

The original point of the thread, when people are obsessed with making fashion statement ARs, is that on the way to a 2k dollar AR build there are certain fundamentals that should be met first for a serious rifle.   Your best point is a light can be had for so cheap that it is foolish not to have or address.


I have been there, have gulped down the lump in my throat and done building searches.    It carries a very real epiphany with it on how somebody can get lucky or lay in wait.   It is scary even when doing things in a sound tactical manner.

I am not saying I will lay in wait in a dark corner and shoot at the first shadowy figure to pass by my spot.    But if it is a tactical advantage to get into a defensible position (argue it as hiding due to being scared for my life while an unknown intruder methodically sought me out) and not broadcast a position, be it with a flash light or not, that is where I am going.    But that issue is getting off topic again.   Semantics...   laying in wait to "ambush" or going to a spot to hide from a threat while standing the best chance to defend yourself?

Sadly I mix words due to mixing roles.    On one hand, due to the fact that during training I have been "ambushed" in situations designed to recreate real life concerns I am in a dangerous situation.

But switch roles and put me in my house and the same tactic of making the threat come to you should be carefully worded, scared for my life, hiding from threat, shot due to the threat to life or serious injury...    using the word "ambush" as a home owner in the context of a home defense scenario is ugly and careless best part of having a light beyond target ID is giving ability to articulate specific threat in terms of weapons/actions.    But it is the term that sticks with me from work mode and training where it is prevalent in my mind.   Good tactic but needs articulate rephrasing for a proper home defense tactic.

I get it, words matter.    Posting from a phone with my thumbs, I get lazy or brief in trying to convey my thoughts.   Especially after a long day.

My experiences are my own and based on them I speak what is right for me.    Could be it evolves as I get older or living situation changes.   I have the ability to adapt, I am not left wanting for anything gear related on ARs.

I agree with the poster above who said it is better to have it and not need it.   On duty I have at least 3 lights one of which is an X300 on my G22.

I am more comfortable with a handgun and it's light.    Or even being able to manipulate an off gun light and getting away from it.   Something about a light on the AR, of which I do have one with a 500A, I cannot articulate it clearly.   I value the optic more if it was a close call between light and optic.

It may be irrational or even dumb.   But it is what it is.     My department rifle has a provision I added to it for putting my X300 on it should I decide to do that.  With regards to the list and the question pondered, if my optic went missing I would miss it more.

You shouldn't be hitting the light at all until you're preparing to shoot, so I wouldn't worry about giving away your position. Again, I think you should have both, especially with the newer generation of low cost red dots coming out that offer a lot of functionality and durability.
I factor in the cost of a light and an optic with the cost of buying a rifle, and honestly, that's something I think should be given as advice more often. Figure into your savings the stuff you need to make the rifle an effective tool beforehand, rather than considering those tools accessories to be added at a later time. Of course, then you have to deal with the "gear queer" bullshit and "kiss is the only way to go, because technology peaked in 1980.'
Luckily, I do have a pretty good stash of Surefires I got issued/bought on sale.

I feel you on the "fashion show" guns, too. I'm using waffles and CAR stocks. I've also been thinking about going from the URX 3 on my KAC to an ALG rail.

Sorry to make it seem a bit off topic, but when you mean expensive stocks, do you mean the really expensive ones like the Magpul UBR/PRS, or just the conglomerate of new stocks that have flooded the market in the post-AWB market like the MOE, B5, VLTOR, etc.?

Just curious is all, because in all honesty I do prefer some of the alternative stocks available simply due to being more comfortable and ergonomic than the standard M4 buttstock.

What Nick meant is the money spent on the fancy stock, fancy grip, and fancy rail couldve been put forth to buy a quality optic etc. The things that matter more was his point.

Light and optic should be put before replacing something that already works just fine, such as the waffle stock or A2 grip

Well, I can certainly agree with that logic, though I also think that their can be exceptions made to it as well.

For example, I switched out my A2 handguards for an MOE handguard both for comfort and to mount a light without watching three quarters of the handguard go to waste on a quad rail system. And try as I might when I hear the arguments made for and against it, I'll join the side that says replace the A2 pistol grip ASAP if it's not comfortable. I honestly thought about being cheap and sanding off the nub on the front of the A2 grip, but decided to put down $25 on a BCM Gunfighter Mod 3. Best investment I've made on the rifle so far seeing as now I can hold the rifle up for a lot longer without getting a sore middle finger. Definitely will agree that the stock is fine as is and shouldn't be replaced until the necessities are on it though. Only reason I'm saving money for a quality light instead of an optic is I'd rather be spending money on ammo to get proficient with the iron sights before investing in an optic.

21. get into night vision & end up buying land so you can shoot at night

23 buy a 60 foot boat so you can go out to international waters and legally  shoot your illegal drop in full auto trigger or finally have a 3000 meter range for ypur barret

24 have tragic boating accident & start over at step 1

This is the exact point of the article and discussion.  It is about the order that you purchase things if you are one of the many people who cannot dump lots of money into a rifle right off the bat.  I can't count the number of times I have seen a rifle with a UBR new grip new charging handle and trigger guard as well as a forend with an angled foregrip and muzzle device while shooting on plastic mbus sights with no flash light.  

Go onto any buy sell trade group on facebook or even some of the rifles on here and you will see add ons bolted to the rifle which should have been A) ammo B) light C) aiming device.  They will also gladly tell you the value of each of the add ons they have stuck to the gun which makes it easy to try and determine actual added value which is normally zero.  

No matter what anyone else has to say you are opening yourself up to a world of hurt if you shoot at something without a light in a self defense situation.  Friends and family have been negligently murdered in that way and people are sitting in jail right now.  Practice clearance with a light.  Do some research and learn that you don't have to point a light directly at what you want to investigate and offsetting lights can disorient what is on the other end of the light.  Learn what is too much for your needs.  I don't think most of the strongest lights on the market are too bright for a rifle today.  For 120 bucks you can get an inforce WML which is a great momentary light with a guard  you can sweep up to stop it from accidentally being set off.

Ironically enough I get to raise my hand with a sheepish smile on that, since unfortunately I am part of that group. Then again, my goals have been kind of different. Moving from California to Arizona for college meant my first year was literally nothing but splurging on standard-capacity magazines and bulk boxes of ammo while my CA-neutered gun was in a safe back home. Afterwards I just decided to buy a new upper (didn't think a 16" carbine system meant for shooting varmints would be good for a general purpose rifle, so I just bought a PSA 16" mid-length system when they had them on discount) and threw on almost everything you mentioned above to deal with my left-handedness (and finally de-neutering the poor thing). After all that I finally got an account on ARFCOM and read up on stuff on the forums and found out that is something I should not have been doing (except the handguards, means I have a more efficient way to throw a light on that getting one of those slap on devices for the A2 guards), so now I get to set aside my nickels and dimes for a light and optic while I put the bulk of my money on ammo and making sure I can actually get good with my irons outside the seated position.

And thanks for dropping the recommendation for an Inforce, I'm gonna have to take a look at the 200 lumen model since it looks cheaper than trying to buy a Surefire Scout with 500 lumens that could blind me the minute I flash a mirror in the house with it.

There's nothing wrong with replacing uncomfortable furniture, I use a BCM grip, too. But it isn't something that should be your first priority. A waffle stock works as a stock, a $10 rattlecan job makes your gun just as hard to see as a $400 cerakote job, a chopped A2 works fine as a grip, etc.

I recommend taking this outlook when purchasing items:
"Does buying this give me a capability I don't have?" which is to say "Does this make my gun quieter, does it let me see at night and identify a target? Does it make it easier to put rounds on a target in stressful situations? Does it make me faster? More accurate?" In my case lately, "Does having this FAL give me something my AR doesn't?
If you can't articulate what having this stock, this electronic device or whatever adds to your capabilities, then you don't need it. Which is not to say "never buy it," it's to say "put this as the last item on your list of stuff you need." Hell, "does it make my gun handle better?" is a very legitimate concern, it's just not as important as being able to safely use the rifle. (On a different topic, don't let marketing make your decisions for you. Just because thisfancynewcoating® says it is amazing and makes you shoot better doesn't mean they're telling the truth.)

That's how I prioritize things, at least. It's mostly steered me in the right direction, e.g. instead of buying more ARs that don't do that much for me, I'm saving towards PVS-14s and better optics. Then I do something dumb like buy a .300 blackout barrel on sale.

This is silly.  Yes there is a chance you can shine directly at a mirror and 'flash blind' yourself but in this hypothetical are you in someone elses house hour your own?  Do you know where your mirrors are in your house?  High port is a damn good tool for room clearing with a light because quick flicks of your light illuminate over the direction you are moving and don't give you a direct flash back.  More lumens is good lumens and understanding how light works you quickly realize that lumens run out with a quickness.  I have shot thousands of rounds at night with white light and night vision.  In the Army we trained one way as an individual things are different and having all the lumens is better than yup something is moving out there I think but I have no way of proving.  

As for raising your hand to buying silly things?  That is part of it being a hobby as well as a tool.  I like shooting a whole bunch.  I spend a ridiculous amount of money on guns and ammo every year not because I fear some zombie uprising or a government collapse.  I buy them because I enjoy shooting them and improving with them.  Do I need more than one AR15?  Definitely not.  This discussion has little to do with someone who has been collecting and shooting AR's for years and more to do with someone who is trying to rationalize picking up a 100 dollar stock or 300 dollar fore end for his rifle that is bareboned.  Marketing as mentioned is one of our biggest enemies for what we really need.  I love buying gimmicky things to try them out but I can pick up a bone stock AR with a sling and light with irons and do a hell of a lot of work with it because I have put in the trigger time and the mental and physical prep work to get it done.

Thanks for correcting me on the lumens issue then, because my biggest issue with looking at a light wasn't so much how much I was willing to put down for one but rather how many lumens I wanted in one. From the sounds of it though it looks like its better for me to save up for the extra lumens than say 200 is good enough.

And I understand what you mean by marketing sucking money out like nobodies business. I remember when I first started looking for parts that companies were trying to sucker me into everything from trying their latest $20 doo-dad that makes "operating the gun easier" to explaining why FF handguards and a high end optic were required if I ever wanted an accurate AR. Between that and me being a poor college student, I usually waited for discount sails and made sure to take a look at alot of the KISS builds to see what was "required" and what was "nice to have", and based my purchases from there.

Im a poor college student again too

The difference between the 500 lumen Inforce wml and the 200 version is probably less than 50 dollars.  The 200 lumen versions have worked fine for me and they get longer battery life as well as some of them have IR options which is nice because I like having beams and stuff at night.  

Be sure what you are buying has momentary.  WML makes version that you click and it is on and then you click again for off.  This is bad you do not generally want this.  I have one for helmet use that that is good for but otherwise it is almost always bad.  You want to be able to barely touch the pad have your area illuminated and then turn back off when you switch away.

There are many other really good lights.  I have several surefires on rifles in the gunsafe as well but the cost definitely adds to the pain of buying Inforce also had some issues early on with the buttons not working.  People sent them in got them replaced and it is no longer an issue.  The issue of battery drain has also been fixed.

In the picture above there was a 200 lumen and a 500 lumen the 500 is a bit longer.

Great thread Nick

Longer isn't an issue with me seeing as it just means it casts less of a shadow on the barrel. But I can definitely see the price difference judging from the price tags, which just gives me an excuse to splurge on more standard cap mags and ammunition (gotta love how California deprived me of such a privilege that now I have to resist to urge to not buy four or six of them at a time whenever I see a deal for them).

Anyways, seeing as I've already seen a couple photos, guess I may as well drop in a pic of my rifle while it was still neutered. Haven't had much of a chance to take it out after getting back into college.

https://s1175.photobucket.com/user/Rommel603/media/CA%20AR15_zpsrjjr42hx.jpg.html

For the WML, the HSP is the momentary only version, which I do not think they make in I.R. capable form.

I have the I.R./white WML in sand and love it. Plenty bright enough for me. It does have a push on/off mode as well as hold/release to turn it on in high/off. Meaning it also works exactly the same as a Surefire pressure switch. It has a low, high, and strobe all in a very easy to use package. Flip the lever and you're in I.R. mode.

The only complaint is the polymer strength. But so far so good mine is still holding up fine and easy to use. If they made the polymer more durable it would be the perfect weaponlight.

ETA I believe they also make the (non HSP and non I.R. version) with constant and momentary. Meaning you flip the lever and you're in momentary mode instead of I.R.)

Pic taken shortly after I painted this upper-

FWIW, I have a 200 lumen M300B, and I regret not going with the M600. As Nick said, remember, Lumens don't work like most people think they do.
Unless you're building a lightweight rifle where you're counting grams, I think you will be disappointed going with a lower lumen light.

I feel neutered with my m300v the only plus side on it is that I can use IR and it hooks to my cqbl in a cool fashion.  

I sometimes think about stocking up on some high power white light only options.  I don't mind doubling down or having specific lights for night vision use.

I remember when I hit a Surefire with a P60l in it for the first time, and I was amazed at how bright it was.Now it doesn't even register unless it's 200 lumens. Been meaning to trade in my M300, but it's a low priority now.

But, yeah, I know what you mean. I'm trying to finish compiling my to-buy list for NVs, and I just can't make myself drop back to 150 lumens no matter how cool the V-series is. I'm thinking about picking up a Torch head for one of the various Surefire bodies I have and an ATPIAL. Or a DBAL D2, I might wind up with a giant tumor on the side of my gun, but I will have all dat ir illumination.

I see this all the time.  The thing that is notable about it is that if people saved their money instead of making all the impulse decisions on garbage parts and accessories, they could actually afford quality components, optics, mounts, and guns.

Companies that cater to the lowest bidder customer exist because of bad decision making on the part of people.

Yes, your HD blaster needs a light and a sling.  Oh, you have to pull your wounded family member across the ground to safety but have a carbine in your hand?

We've been using weapon lights on guns for a long, long time.  Technology has just gotten much better, more accessible to Joe Blow, and much more capable.  Put a light on your HD gun, whether it be a pistol, carbine, or those things the gun counter tards tell you are best for HD.

Don't waste your money on VFG's, Chinese lasers with telephone cord pressure switches, Chinese bipods, and Barska or NCStar optics.  That's a chunk of change when you add it up, and can get you a top-notch weapon light and sling.

I vote NV + IR laser/light.

The hardest thing about clearing my house when something goes bump in the night is my erection in the ranger panties I sleep in.  True story.

#21  downsize collection to pay for stamps.
#22  fuck, silencerz are sweet
#23  you're broke, all your toys now have a $200 adder and take 6 months to acquire.

Mmm NFA

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

wow



is this amateur hour?

Well I for one am anti weapon mounted light. Sorry I don't need to give away my position, worry that the batteries have a charge, lose my night vision when I turn it on, and flag anything I want to take a look at. I play in adult hide and seek in the dark professionally. Light discipline is key. Your own night vision will work if you let it. Of course have a hand held light for back up and positively identify your target before sending hot rocks down range. I do this in the brush. A few weeks ago we were escorting an armed suspect out of the brush and the SO said I don't know how you go into the brush at night if someone is armed. My partner replied, "It's just part of the job."  

I never understood  why people put lights on pistols. For one why put a glowing beacon as a target for a suspect to shoot at. Doesn't make sense. That's one of the biggest problems with trainees they come in and they are scared of the dark and have no light discipline. I've been in the desert long enough to use my own eyes natural night vision.

I think it would be a bad call to tell any new AR owner not to have a weaponlight for HD, regardless of how you feel about its use.

For starters, just because you have it doesn't mean you have to turn it on if you can see decently with your natural night vision. Like I stated earlier, there are also multiple weaponlights with lockout features to prevent an accidental "light discharge"

Also remember not everybody has good natural night vision. Regardless of belief of its use, by not having one you are gaining NOTHING and only taking away from your capabilities/ability to I.D. surroundings/threats

Next time you wake up to go take a piss do so without turning on any lights.  You will piss on the floor and your wife will be pissed.

If you are doing this with a gun you will miss your target or hit something you don't want to.

How much good does your natural night vision do when the bad guy is sifting through your belongings with a flashlight?  What if they point it at you and then quickly displace to the left or right?  Your night vision is shot and they are readying the hipoint they had tucked in their hoody.  You have maybe a second or two before they have the gun out and are ready to shoot you.  

Put a light on your rifle.  In terms of house use you can buy a magpul mount with a 60 dollar surefire 6p for 100 bucks or get a wml or something similar for 120 or so.  If you intend to use your rifle as a home defense gun and buy a 100 dollar stock or trigger instead of a flashlight you are a very dumb person.

I really hope if we just keep blasting this PSA people will learn.  It doesn't matter what you 'think' things will be like you have been proven wrong over and over again.  I know this is a double post but for the love of christ do not listen to anyone who tells you not to have a light on your rifle.


Give a friend a key to your home have him enter at random some night and slap you in the face telling you someone is in the house.  Clear the house or bunker down doing what ever it is you are planning on doing.  It is different if you have kids or there is some chick who came over to netflix and chill.  Lets just go ahead and ID targets before we shoot them because it is one of our key rules 'know what your target is and what is behind it'....we can't do that in the dark of night.

The counterpoint I would make over "you can't have too many lumens" is you can have too many lumens. Finally had a buddy of mine show me how nice his Surefire Scout was and turned off all the lights at around 2100 hours and flipped 500 lumens of it on against a white wall across the room (I'd say roughly 30 feet away) for around two seconds, and the backwash had me blinking and disoriented for a few seconds, with spots in my vision for a good ten-fifteen seconds afterwards. I'm not saying having more lumens is better is a bad thing, but also know when your light becomes more of a hindrance than a boon and try and find a light that's bright enough to disorient whoever's in front of it but isn't bright enough to disorient you in the process. For outdoor use, 500+ lumens is great, but when you're talking about lighting up small spaces ranging from 5-50 feet inside a house, I think there is such as thing as a limit to how much light is good light.

Ok for one If you approach a guy rifling through your stuff with a flashlight you have the drop of him and if you fear for your life you should stop that threat. Second point I've got two small kids as of writing this with a 3rd that will be here in 20 days. My house is full of night lights and scentsy warmers. It's never pitch dark and my night vision serves me well in that environment. 3rd you are over complicating the weapon system and adding another part that can fail. And I've had all kinds of flash lights fail, steamlights, sure fires, Fenix,4sevens and even some custom lights fail. Now your talking about a high stress environment that reduces the use of fine motor control. Working a light in a tactical manner adds a level of difficulty that could add time to your reaction and get you killed. 4th talk about tunnel vision if you light up something in a room let's say it's subject A the blind spot will be horrible and you would have problems picking up subject B. The main problem I have with a weapon light is when you use it you give away your position and put a glowing target on yourself.  I'm not opposed to the light on all situations but for me I would use a pistol and a 18650 light. That way I could at least extend the light out 3 feet to my side and maybe miss a few bullets when they get flung at the light.  Also I've used the light  to try and strobe and disorient someone. It doesn't really work. I strobed a group of 7 individuals. I started running at a full sprint strobed them. We were able to catch the pregnant lady and her daughter to didn't run and I caught the 55 year guide mainly because he got tripped up in broken down barb wire fence. The 4 drug mules with 60 lb sacks of marijuana on their backs made a clean escape.

One thing you  don't give credence to is your night vision. When was the last time you went outside at night? You don't need a flashlight most of the time.   Go outside and give some time for your eyes to adjust I bet you can see fine in the dark most nights. And if you can't that's when you use a back up hand flash   Not a light your through on a gun that stays in the safe for 6 months at a time.


So it's not think I've done. granted I've never defended from a home invasion but I've been in the dark doing my job plenty of times.
And you can use a long arm in conjunction with a hand held light.

you are an idiot.  You don't not understand how to control the lumens and you will not make it.

@ Foxtrot- So your advice to a new AR owner for a defensive role is to not run an overly complicated to manipulate weaponlight, but run a fucking hand held while you're operating your long gun?

I don't know what you're smokin' but any new guys that may be reading this, that is terrible fucking advice. Weaponlight on weapon. Running a rifle and a handheld at the same time is MUCH harder than pushing a damn button with it rail mounted.

That doesn't even address the other stupid/incorrect shit you typed up, but that had to be the dumbest post I've ever read on this forum, bar none.

You are an idiot and will one day shoot your kids at the approach vector you are currently on.  get a light for you r rifle unless you want o kill your kids.  Stop being a moron.  You are a fool.  Dumb miscreant is digging through your belongings and you come fumbling down the stairs he kills light...you round corner as he is drawing his stolen pistol.  He flashes you in the eyes and your perfect kick ass night sight is disabled and his stolen pistol kills you then kills your 2 or 3 kids then kills your wife.  You are an idiot and deserve it.  Stop steering other smart dudes from what is right because you think your stupidity is warranted because it has yet to be tested.

Moron.

I can't even believe the bullshit he just typed up. I honestly didn't expect it to get even worse than his first post.

Yeah, I'm going to build the way I like it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_20/446092_Proper_use_of_weapons_lights_on_ARs.html
Stop commenting on weaponlights until you have, at a bare minimum, read this and fully understand the technique he's talking about. Clearly, you've never received quality low light training.




Double quoted because you should read it again. Nick's dead on right, when you're contrary to literally every military, law enforcement, and professional shooter in the world...that's a clue that your opinion might be wrong. I don't  care how great you think your night vision is, you can't identify a target with enough certainty to pull the trigger when you're half awake, pumped full of adrenaline, and it's dark.