Trying to find a mount that will co witness with my 45 degree KAC irons. I'll be mounting my TRS to it. Was looking at the Midwest industries 1o clock mount but it states that it's at 22 degrees. Will it co witness with my 45 degree irons?

Don't give me to much crap about the TRS. It's a temp until I can drop the change on an Aimpoint or RMR.

Maybe this? Pricey, but it's 45 degree over bore.

JP Enterprises 45 degree offset adaptor

You make a good point. Your correct, I have a scope for my primary. The kac 45 flip ups are primarily backups and will hardly be used. I guess you could say that I am aiming for a 3 gun setup with backup irons. I'm much faster looking through my TRS than I am with any other irons.

Then why run back up irons? no 3 gun situation is going to cause 2 optics to go down and force you to move to a third option. I have to say, this is the first I have heard of someone doing this. If you want a 3 gun setup, the last thing you want to be doing is adding more unbalanced weight

I guess I should not have said that it is a 3 gun build, even though I'm not running it in 3 guns it resembles one. I like the idea of running back up irons because a gun must have back up irons imo. I'll keep shopping around looking for the 45degree offsets. Thanks guys!

I suppose a firearm must be heavy as well?

I don't understand the logic...but ....would this work? http://www.gggaz.com/45-degree-offset-accessory-rail.html

I guess this is what OP is aiming for.

How did I know this was going there....

In a SHTF situation I want an optic for the primary aiming system as I feel most engagements will be out at medium to long range, Then if a bad guy pops out up close I want to switch to red dot on 45 degree. That is all.

I feel that all guns should have back up irons always. If you don't feel that way that's just fine. You are correct I could ditch the TRS and just use the irons. however right now I'm not as fast with the irons thus the desire to keep the red dot.

If the primary optic fails and I'm in a time is life situation I don't want to mess with removing my scope, even though it has quick detach. I want to roll the gun over and start shooting. I want the co-witness with the irons and red dot for the exact same time is life scenario. If the red dot fails, no removing optics just start shooting.

If you think about it I only have 2 sight systems with one backup. Its really not a crazy idea.

Needs more can.

I suggest you actually start shooting more and using a weapon in similar scenarios to the ones you have described.
The SHTF wet dream + playing call of duty isn't necessarily the best way to go about setting up an effective and practical rifle.
Also, you said every rifle should have buis, yet you admit you aren't good with irons…. Maybe you should practice instead of adding a red dot as a crutch? you need to stop where you are with your rifle and start shooting it instead of adding more pointless stuff that isn't going to improve your skill or marksmanship.

Thank you for your suggestion.
please explain to me how you think a primary optic, secondary red dot, with buis is less effective and not practical. Its actually the most effective and practical build I can think of for myself. I stated that I'm not as fast with irons not that, I'm bad. Also, having a red dot that co witnesses with the buis will actually help with muscle memory and function the gun for the off chance that I actually need the buis (remember the purpose of the thread, to find an offset mount that will co-witness with the KAC irons). But hey what the hell do I know. All I do is have "wet dreams and play Call of Duty" right? Damn this community... After some research it seems the Jp Enterprise offset will work just fine. Thanks

Your new here I see?  Poking fun is hardly constructive.  

I know Plague personally and I have shot thousands of rounds with the guy for years.  I don't see how having a offset irons, and an offset dot is a bad idea.  BUIS are last resort, and I have heard arfcom members for years go on and on about how every AR needs back ups.  Good arguments have been made that one needs back ups whether your primarily running a dot, or a scope.   If you can think of all the reasons why BUIS are good, all those reasons also hold true for having offset backups and an offset dot type setup.

How many guys do you see running off set dots who also run normal BUIS?  I see it all the time and for good reason.  Why not make the irons offset as well then?  

I challenge anyone here to come up with logical reasons for needing back up irons, and then also conclude that those reasons don't apply if your already running an offset dog sight.

Just a thought, but if you want magnification, zero-magnification RD and back-up irons on one rifle, would you consider a magnifier with your RD sight and then have standard BUIS?
All of this 45-degree off-set stuff is going to make your rifle heavy as hell and a PITA IMO.
No way I would be interested in having two full optics and irons, not to mention the added weight of the off-set mounts and rail sections.

My brother used to have a multiple redundant sighting system on his SHTF AR, and after some experimentation and time handling the weapon, he is down to a Strikefire and nothing else.
Nothing wrong with BUIS, but I anticipate your proposed set-up is going to be abandoned quickly, if you go that route.

YMMV

This is a good point, but to me it makes a lot more sense practicing with the irons if you have them on an offset position.  If the OP is running say an ACOG with regular backups, then popping the ACOG off and on to practice with irons makes less sense than simply having offset irons.  And if the OP has offset irons, and also decides to run an offset dot, then more power to him.  I cant n conjure up in my mind any argument that concludes this is a bad idea, but yet also maintains that backups on all other AR's are a good idea.

I don't see how these are any heavier than most irons....




Just as you see in this setup here the user has an offset mount, and back ups....I don't see how this is overly heavy or a bad idea.  

Hey op the Burkett predator offset will work with the kac offsets, I have that setup on my rifle but I'm using an rmr

Incorrect. There are no buis.

I think what most people are saying is that you should have a redundant sighting system. A few years ago offset red dots were almost unheard of. Prior to the T1 and when RMRs weren't very robust, offset red dots just weren't an option. Now we have T1s which are bomb proof, and RMRs have begun to prove themselves as reliable options. It is hard to argue against having an offset BUIS along with a main scope and an offset RD/RMR, but you start to hit diminished returns after dual sighting systems.

You kind of start going down that slippery slope of two is one and one is none. If you blindly follow that rule then I would have 2 PEQ-15, 2 M300 Mini Scout lights, I'd carry 2 PVS-14s and 2 SkeetIR thermal monoculars, etc etc. you can see how it can get ridiculous, yet hard to argue against having doubles of everything. If my PVS-14 went down during a night ops not only would I be combat ineffective, I could also be a liability to the mission, yet I'm only going to take one out with me.

How effectively can you train on 3 systems?
Will the cost be worth the benefits?
What is the likelihood of both optics failing?
Will a triple sighting system provide you the tools needed for your anticipated mission set?
Can you get by with less?

These are just some questions you might want to consider. I'm not saying yaye or nay because in the end it's your rifle and your money. This great country allows us to do what you want with it.

However, if you are asking for my opinion, which I know you're not, this is what I'd say. If you want an offset optic, go with a T1. They are as stout as a red dot comes. You will be very hard pressed to find a tougher optic. I have 2 deployments under my belt and spent a lot of time out on missions, both mounted and dismounted, and I have never once had to go to my BUIS. This includes training as well. So, while conceivable that two optics could go down, it's highly unlikely. The only time I see this happening is if you don't change batteries and do proper checks and maintenance, or if you get blown up. If the later is the case, you got a lot more to worry about than no sights on your weapon.

Sorry for the rant.  Back to your original question, I have no idea what mount will cowitness with the KAC 45* offset iron sights.

I'm not personally an "offsets" fan, and have mostly ditched BUIS as a concept in general, but at one point, I was running:

1. ELCAN SpecterDR 1-4x
2. DocterOptic piggyback mounted on ELCAN
3. ELCAN integral BUIS offset mounted around the Docter
4. Fixed FSB with MATECH rear
5. AN/PEQ-2A TPIAL




Nothing inherently wrong IMHO, with three... or five different optic/sight setups on a single rifle.  

~Augee

If I was running say a 1-4 power optic, and I decided to also get an offset t1...i would feel the rifle was naked without some irons.  I don't know why but that's what I'd feel.  

Irons require no batteries, they won't break or crack, they can perform no matter the weather conditions as well as underwater etc.. They are the ultimate rugged platform if you ask me.  When the SHTF, batteries will all disappear or die.  Yeah a t1 will last ya 6 years, but I guess as unlikely as it may seem I would rather run irons as well just in case.  And I'm not the only one who feels this way.  I've seen lots of setups that run 3 sighting systems.

I don't find anything wrong with that particular logic, but do find it a bit redundant.

I'm just about finished with my be all end all rig that some buddies of mine have dubbed "the panty dropper."

It's an FDE cerakoted complete factory KAC dimpled 14.5" Carbine. Its primary optic is a Leupold Mark 6 1-6x in LaRue QD mount, and secondary optic is a 2 MOA T1 in offset LaRue QD mount. With this particular setup, I find the idea of BUIS very redundant.

Both those optics are bombproof, and one will run fine without batteries, and the other will run for several years on just one battery (and I have doubled that battery life as I have a KAC T1 battery cap on it which stores a spare battery).

Here's a before shot of this rig before its current transformation:



The upper is currently with my smith getting the pinned AAC Blackout removed in favor of a pinned AAC Brake - as I have a dedicated AAC Mini 4 can nearly approved for it - and surely want to protect the can as much as possible.

All that's left after that is a SureFire M300B, and "the panty dropper" will be complete.

As you can see, the upper currently has KAC BUIS on it, but as said, I don't see a need for them with the Mark 6 1-6x and offset T1 - so I'm gonna move them over to an incoming BCM SBR upper.

The OP is talking about co-witnessing a 45 degree MRD and sights. IMO, that's a little different the running BUIS.

In a real world situation, I don't know why you would run a true 1-4x and a MRD. 2.5-10x I can understand.

When the SHTF, we're all gonna be standing around with all this cool shit and no water!

Can't speak for an MRD with a true 1-4x, but can speak for why I opted for an offset T1 with a true 1-6x.

Unlimited eye relief for starters. Even with a true 1x, a scope is still a scope. Eye relief can be a bitch. Especially with fast up close target acquisition.

Next, it's far quicker for me to rapidly switch over to an offset T1 than to adjust my 1-6x down to 1x - even with a throw lever. And point one already makes this point unnecessary, because even in a world where I already had my true 1-6x optic on 1x, I'd still prefer the T1 for 1x work - especially on the fly 1x work.

I can see the use for 3-gun but for a "real world situation" it's highly unlikely you would need it. We'll soon find out because the sky is falling!

Every man needs a be all end all rig. There's maybe a such thing as over prepared, but a rifle that will cover you in nearly any scenario surely is not it IMHO.

Topic Moved

totally agree

What do you think the shelf life is of a battery?  As I understand them if they are not used, they will die.  Call me a dooms day prepper or whatever but if an extra battery sits inside the T1 cap for 6+ years...wouldn't it die?  

And I know the t1 is bomb proof...but it can still fail in many ways that irons cannot.  For this reason, I would probably go with BUIS and the t1...but I'm weird I guess.

Love your setup (or at least the idea of it) by the way.  Similar to my "panty dropper" build I've got in the works right now.