yep

Not very far forward. I prefer it more to the rear. The rds is mounted on the front bracket

Thanks.  

@GaryT1776

Took the rmr off but this is the current position. I may end up moving it back one more. I have to spend some time doing prone work to see if I end up too close to the eye piece.

Attached File

WOW!  That is really far back!!

I shoot with a very upright position.

Attached File


I have mine mounted pretty far forward.

My experience is it's faster to switch to the offset than dial the 1x for me, so I prefer an offset if I'm not on 1x.

If I'm already on 1x, it's faster for me to shoot with the LPVO versus the offset.

Also, night vision.

I think it makes sense to roll to your 45 offset from magnified instead of dialing down, if you're stationary. If you need to move, I've found that the times are very similar since the manipulation of the throw lever occurs during the move.  

I don't run an offset now since I largely shoot Tac Optics but I've seen several guys run them for PCSL 2Gun, since it doesn't have optics restrictions.

This.

I can see that. I haven't had a chance to do it while moving. Same applies for doing reloads and other tasks while moving from one position to the other.

This has been an interesting thread and it's giving me pause about ordering a TA02/RMR package and instead going with a NX8/RMR.  I've had both ACOGS and LVPOs in the past but really gave neither a fair shake and kept reverting back to an RDS simply because it was easier to use.    But this was at the expense of magnification which I really do need.

I've had a Razor 1-6 gen 2, Kahles K16i, Credo and Leupold VX6....the NX8 is on my 14.5 now, and I like it better than ALL of the others.  Sold my magnifier.....

If you like that one, don’t ever try an ATACR.

THIS!!!

I've got three 5.56 rifles with LPVO's. I love them, but they are mostly daytime optics (except one).
I've got three SBR rifles with red dots. Excellent QCB and night fighters.
I've got one precision 5.56 rifle with a MPO and an offset red dot (NX8 2.5-20X + RMR). That one might be the ultimate utility rifle.... and the one I'd probably reach for if I could only take ONE!

-ZA

That scope is sick.  Clear glass and insane Magnification range

Ive had both. Went back to nx8.

So I saw a video by deltathirtyfour on YouTube that I thought was pretty well done. In it he has some awesome radar graphs that I decided to take a stab at. I removed some things to try and reduce the subjectivity as much as possible, and use scientific numbers in my calculations. The least amount of opinion as possible. In my scenario I’m comparing a Razor HD 1-6 and a TA31 with a piggy back RMR. (Definitely check out his content if you like ACOG’s.)

Drivers.

LR = Long range. This is literally just using the magnification rate as our control.

CQ = Close quarters. A true red dot would be a 6. While the RMR is a true red dot, I deducted the ocular lens difference off the RMR in comparison to the T2’s lens size. The Razor was deducted due to exit pupil limitations in comparison to the T2’s ocular. Yes, one could add a RMR to the LPVO, but then we’re muddying the waters with a set up most are not going to choose.

EB = Eye box. For the sake of simplicity I removed the RMR and assumed the Razor at the matching 4X. This is literally just the area calculation of their eye relief and exit pupil. I did go with Trijicon’s listed eye relief which is a little shorter than reality, but not by enough to cause a drastic swing. If we included 1X here it would be hard to calculate and the Razor would be at lopsided and unfair disadvantage.

Weight = Obvious. This one again could have variables but for the sake of argument, this is the weight ratio of a Razor in a Larue mount compared to an ACOG with a RMR attached. Even with a lighter mount it wouldn’t change our rounded ratio and lighter ACOG mounts exist too.

Durability = Obvious. This is the most subjective but I don’t think there are many people who would argue against the TA31 being twice as durable as a Razor. I would bet the spread is even further, but I figure that’s an agreeable estimate.

The charts: Optimal performance would be solid blue. That doesn’t exist or that’s what we all would run. I originally had NV use included but it made the results entirely lopsided, and no one is running NVG’s through a Razor. So on to the results.

Attached File


Attached File


Obviously there’s a lot more to it than this, but this is as scientific as I was willing to get for now. The averages come out in favor of the ACOG/RMR by a sliver that doesn’t show with rounding. Surely not even remotely enough to argue for or against, which is actually what I would consider to be the learning here. The difference isn’t quite as drastic as people think when we simplify with numbers into data.

I would have liked to added a donut border to highlight use case, but I’m doing this on my phone and see enough of this shit at work already. You are going to be the deciding factor, and this might help you visualize strengths and weaknesses.

ETA: Here’s the outcome of a TA33/RMR with the LPVO metrics adjusted. By numbers only the TA33/RMR pulls ahead.

Attached File


Attached File

Now add in diopter adjustment for those of us with less than stellar vision. It may even things up a bit. I was able to check out a neighbor's acog and before I had my vision corrected, got just a blurry reticle on his acog. Haven't tried it with my glasses but also don't want to depend on always having my glasses for an optic.

Ta-11/RMR would probably get the best score….maybe.

My two cents:

“I hate LPVOs” is too much of a blanket statement to be useful. “I hate ACOGs” ignores the multitude of ACOG options, for example. (Want eye relief? Get a TA11.)

Really we need to address criticism of LPVOs due to their individual downsides:

“LPVOs are heavy.” Lightweight options exist; the PLXc and NX8 are around 17 ounces. You can go lighter with a P4xi or TR24. An Aero ultralight mount is 3 ounces. If 20oz is heavy for you, then I recommend iron sights. Bear in mind that the TA02 ACOG is also 20 ounces with an RMR. The TA110 with RMR is actually heavier. The 5x and 6x ACOGs are particularly hefty.

“Moving my head up to the RMR is faster than using the zoom lever.” You can also piggyback an RMR off an LPVO. An FFP LPVO will even have correct subtensions when not at full power, so you can use it like an ACOG.

“It’s not daylight bright.” Well, some are. The Nova, P4xi, and Razor Gen 2 - any SFP fiber wire reticle - gets red dot bright. A well designed reticle will allow shooting when blacked out too, and to be fair many are not well designed.

“I prefer a BDC reticle because I don’t want to do gunfight trigonometry.” Some LPVOs like the Credo, SAI 6, or PLXc 1-8 come with BDC reticles. The latter two even have wind holds, which most ACOGs do not.

“LPVOs aren’t durable as ACOGs.” This is true; we still see LPVOs in combat use though. If you are regularly dealing with explosions then you might consider an ACOG or red dot, but for the vast majority of us we’re gonna be all right. LPVOs typically take deliberate abuse to break.

“The battery life sucks.” This one is valid. Find one with a reticle that works even when blacked out. Both LPVOs and ACOGs are better than red dots, which become paperweights with a dead battery. You still have a reticle.

“The 1x sucks.” Not universally true. Cheap LPVOs and 1-10s do have bad 1x, but it’s still usable. On a quality LPVO with the diopter properly set it should look great and be similar to a red dot. Note that the RMR does have parallax, tint, and edge distortion, so it’s not the greatest 1x experience either.

The big advantage of LPVOs is that they perform well across a wide variety of ranges and situations. ACOGs are wonderful optics - I want a TA02! - but they have some deficiencies:
-Your 1x is now so high you have a jaw weld, compromising your fundamentals.
-The BDC has no wind holds and may not line up with your ammo and muzzle velocity.
-There is no diopter adjustment so your eyes may not play well with it.
-For longer ranges you only have 3-4x which makes hitting small, camouflaged, or moving targets more difficult. (I’m assuming nobody is running around with the 6x ACOG. If you are, more power to you.) Not every real-world target is going to stand in the open and present a full torso with a contrasting background.
-Fiber optic ACOGs have the RMR mount in a bad spot for NV compatibility. You almost certainly need an LED ACOG for RMR passive aiming.


There is no perfect optic, only a set of features you are willing to compromise for. LPVOs compromise the least.

I’ve found that the issue with the durability criteria is that you don’t have an agreed-upon objective measure. Everything I hear is anecdotal evidence.

One possible measure you could use is the MIL STD 810 standards, which I see published on Trijicon’s site.  If that’s a standard, I remember the Vortex Razor having to go through the same battery of tests for their SOCOM contract. Someone with a better memory can expand upon this.

Agreed completely that objectivity is the problem. Shoulder height drop tests are about as objective as you can get without scientific measures like the MIL-STD. I’d also argue that they aren’t realistic; most people are not dropping their rifle optic-first onto a surface because they have rifle slings. I have seen rifles fall off of benches or racks but it’s not shoulder height and impact isn’t on the optic. I’m sure the MIL-STD has a shock test but I don’t have calibrated equipment.

LPVOs tend not to survive these drop tests. ACOGs do with flying colors. We’ve also issued rifle scopes for decades now, and the new Army rifle is going to be paired with an LPVO, so I’m sure the powers that be consider LPVOs durable enough.

Reliability is also more than durability/shock resistance. Quality control escapes, failures over time due to recoil impulse, lens fogging, etc. can occur too.

I’ve luckily never had a LPVO break in two drops of about 3 feet. I have seen one lose zero due to causing a shift in the mount.

If anyone can find drop standards for the Vortex I’d be happy to add it. I searched but all I found were examples of them breaking without any consistent data points.

When discussing drop tests and general durability, are we discussing old school wire reticles or etched?  There's big difference, since a wire reticle is most assuredly the weakest link in an optic with one.

Interesting to see the ta33 with an rmr on top has a 6/6 in durability.

I haven’t seen any durability issues with the RMR and some of the tests were pretty brutal. Easy to reconsider if there’s evidence the RMR is not reliable/durable that you have access to.

I haven’t seen any durability issues with the RMR and some of the tests were pretty brutal. Easy to reconsider if there’s evidence the RMR is not reliable/durable that you have access to.

I think the MIL STD 810 drop test standards are 26 drops from 4 feet onto plywood over concrete.

https://www.zebra.com/us/en/resource-library/faq/what-is-a-drop-test.html#:~:text=U.S.%20Military%20Standard%2C%20MIL%2DSTD,drops%2C%20and%206%20face%20drops

I don’t have any more info other than that

Rather than start a new thread, maybe I can get advice here. I just shot my first rifle match using an LPVO.  All my previous matches have been with red dots, red dots and magnifiers,  or acogs with rmr. Today's match was with a razor g2 1-6 mrad in a 1.7 mount with an RMR on top. I did poorly in the match. The stages were CQB out to 500 yards. I found I lost a ton of time on the long shots. I had a difficult time finding the correct hash mark for the distance.  The lines are not numbered on the razor like some scopes are, so after every time I lost my sight picture either from movement or recoil, I had to count the reticle hash marks down from the zero to find my holds. Is there a better way to do this? Is this just the nature of having a reticle with no digits? Casually shooting the rifle , I didn't even consider this, but shooting against a timer sucked.

Just have to learn your drops or work on your zero with a ballistic calculator to try and get them closer to round numbers. Problem is at distance the bullet starts to drop fast and not evenly like the 200-400 yards

A few things to check out:

1. Which reticle do you have?  For the VMR reticles, you’ll notice that they alternate between little lines and big lines. So, if you’re shooting out to 500 yards, you only need to use 2 of each.  The JM1 BDC is also relatively easy to use since there’s only 4 lines on the ladder, that progressively get smaller.

2. At 6x magnification, your sight disruption after boom should not be so large that it’s causing the reticle to leave the sight picture. If you’re able to call your shot as you press it, notice the impact if there’s a backstop and correct.

3. Did you chrono your ammo and plug it into a ballistic calculator to find the drops?  Long range shooting is all about the prep work before your first shot.  You need to know where your gun shoots at those match distances.

4. In that same vein, how was your body positioning?  Was it stable when you pressed the trigger?  For my dry fire, I practice running into expedient positions such that right before trigger press, I see less than 1 mil of reticle wobble. You want to be firing a well aimed shot every 3-5s, to be competitive.

Good info, thanks. Mines the VMR2 MRAD reticle.  I misspoke, it's not that I'm losing sight picture. It's when the reticle comes off the target at all. Either when transitioning a distant plate rack, new targets or after a shot. The reticle bounces a bit, and I am unable to quickly find my hold again without counting. I got my holds from a ballistic ap and it was pretty close. I knew which hold to use.  I was having trouble locating the correct stadia. Body positioning needs work. We had to shoot off a small roof, a ricketty ladder, 55gal drums etc. I need to work on getting stable shooting positions quickly.

I always find these conversations interesting.   I'm glad the distinction was made between matches being used to test a skill vs a realistic scenario (at least for us non LEO civilians state-side).

I don't have any LPVO's, and probably won't get any.   But it is more about my use case than feelings on them.   I won't spend the money to buy a really good one (to avoid the issues of cheap ones) because I realistically don't have a scenario that would make good use of the extended capability.  Because of that same use case, I haven't shot my 16" 5.56 in at least 3 years, and probably 5 years for my 20".  

If I lived someplace more rural (where there is a good chance you could be shooting at a 4 legged critter 30 yards away or 300 yards away), or participated in matches, or was a LEO on patrol, then I can see it making  sense in those scenarios.

With a little practice, you'll get more comfortable with the reticle. It happened to me on my first LPVO for a little bit until I got used to the holds.

What would be the next step up from a vortex strike eagle 1-6x so I can try a usable LPVO?  I’m not going to buy an NX8 or other high end option.

Vortex viper pst 2 1-6

A second focal plane?

What makes you think you would need something other than SFP for an LPVO?

Dupe…

My current SFP LPVO sucks at 1x?

The Viper PST is pretty great on 1x. Almost as good as the Razor.

Came for LPVO discussion. Left with conflicting information on how to design a 3 gun course.

I've spent quite a lot of time behind various LPVOs since I started this thread, and am definitely starting to understand why they're so popular.  This process required me to not think like a luddite curmudgeon, and be more open to newer technology.

I still like an ACOG with offset MRDS or RDS, but am absolutely starting to appreciate LPVOs.  To a point wherein I've stopped reaching for anything else.

Broseph it's been less than a month.

Thread rated troll.

I've had a Badger COMM 1.7" mount on backorder from Eurooptic for a little over a week. I planned on mounting an RMR for passive NV capabilities. I've been browsing the EE, eBay, etc but can't find this mount in stock anywhere. I'm not impatient yet but I am growing a little antsy.

Will I be disappointed if I go with the 1.54" Nightforce Ultramount on my NX8? I know I'll lose the easy RMR mounting options.

I would consider Geissele but everything G seems perpetually out of stock.

Do I stick it out for the Badger?

is the nx8 your primary 1x?

Yes

I'd hold out for the higher mount. DM me