So - I got in trouble with the mods today, correcting an OP when, he or she, stated that they had a SGL Izhevsk - and it actually turned out to be a FIME Izhmash SGL.  To me , they are 2 completely different AK's, one from FIME and one from Arsenal, 2 separate shops, 100% confirmed...  I know both of them are great rifles indeed, no question there, and I am not arguing that.  But IMO, the Arsenal SGL Legion Izhevsk is of higher quality / more desirable and of higher value. Also  I understand it,  the Legion Izhesvsk marking denotes the "custom shop" of Izhmash.  Meaning , the Legion stamp, from what I understand, is held or refined to a higher standard than normal Izhmash rifles, which I have read in several locations, and also stated here in this video from Arsenal at the 2010 shot show from a TNP video ( hate to do that ), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shlDingkrZk  ....  

They're both Izhmash guns. Izhmash is located in Ishevsk.

Yes, that I know..  But what I am talking in particular is the difference between "Legion Izhevsk" and "Izhmash" stamped rifles, Arsenal vs FIME

Legion is the Izhmash custom shop. It does not mean anything in terms of quality differences. FIME guns generally get a bad rap for poor stateside conversion work. Even so, I think it is overstated.

It is WAY overstated. It's just a way for people who have Arsenal marked guns to make themselves feel superior to those who have FIME marked guns. I've owned both and there was zero difference worth mentioning. This exactly what happened when Arsenal started the FIME name and everyone lost their shit just because their rifles didn't say Arsenal on it.

So , in your opinion, the Arsenal "Legion" stamped AK is of no higher quality / market value than a FIME "Izhmash"..  

I had a SGL21 (non-FIME) and to be honest, my new WASR is just as good.  Don't sweat it.

Market value, sure. People will see the Arsenal name and will pay more for it. But in this case they're paying more for the name on the gun and not the gun itself.

The difference between the guns is the name stamped on the receiver.  That's it.

FIME is a company that is part of the same group of companies as Arsenal Inc and K-var.  FIME was created to move the Russian line of guns under a different name.. for whatever reason.  After they created FIME, Arsenal is only dealing in Bulgarian guns.  They probably did this is because Arsenal Inc has a deep connection to Arsenal Bulgaria.. and the Bulgarians probably weren't cool with what is basically their US branch selling a competitors product.

Arsenals may bring more money because some people are silly and literally will pay more for a name.  I think this comes from the reputation Arsenals had as being the standard for an off the shelf AK, so people that were buying into the name got pissy when the name suddenly changed.  The guns themselves are identical.

For the record, I've only owned Arsenal guns, never owned a FIME, so I have no reason to make the FIME sound equal if it isn't actually equal to the Arsenal.

I saw some pics of poor craftsmanship on some FIME guns, but nothing that would affect function, plus owners loved their FIMES no problem

Ok - all great points...  So, to me it is kind of like a Norinco / PolyTech situation..  I have several Chinese AK's pre and post ban, and some each from the same factory,  but the Polytech's will always bring the higher dollar....  And there is discussions I have seen where they say, the PolyTech's are built to a higher standard, such as the arguments I have seend about the Legion stamped AK's.  But, I can see no difference between a PolyTech or Norinco, both are absolutely superb..

But this brings me back to the reason I started this post.. I really wanted more opinions on the 2 SGL's.  Because I got in trouble for correcting an OP for advertising an SGL IZhevsk, although it was a FIME Izhmash.  If you say SGL Izhevsk, to me that implies an Arsenal SGL, which is not a FIME..  That may be lack of knowledge on their part, but also if someone who doesn't know about AK's buys it and just believes they have an Arsenal SGL, even though it is a FIME, it is not the same...    If, I posted a PolyTech for sale, but actually listed a Norinco and told them it is the same, an informed AK person would know the difference and not stand for it or call me out, but a non-knowing AK person would probably just go with it and have some dis-appointment later in life..

Guess I am just too detail oriented, or too honest - which I guess is becoming an :offensive" trait in this country :)  Hell, I am offended I just said that LOL

You are splitting hairs to a pretty extreme degree.

And I'd say you got yourself in trouble with a mod for shitting on someones EE ad... better to take stuff like that to a PM.  I'm actually surprised they didn't ban you for that.

For the record that was my post, and yes you were splitting hairs.

I also own a number of Arsenal and have owned Legion marked SGLs in the past. Your posts cost me two potential buyers, and ultimately I closed the thread as you made it seem as if the quality was questionable. It was completely unnecessary, and you gave both of my potential buyers wet feet. Both sent me PMs stating that they didn't realize FIME rifles were lesser quality than Arsenal and politely declined to follow through.

You have a right to have an opinion, but you made it seem as if I wasn't being honest, which was definitely not the case. On the other hand you did get a great deal on another SGL that came up for sale today, so congrats on that. I was wavering on picking it up myself.

OP: I saw the thread you posted in and believe you were in the wrong. The guns are the same aside from the stampings. Both are made at the Izhmash factory in Izhevsk and IIRC Arsenal founded FIME when Arsenal Bulgaria got pissy about the Russian guns. Sometimes you'll find guns that have not been cleanly converted once stateside. Keep in mind they don't come over in full military appearance.

The whole Izhmash vs Legion issue is moot. Technically these started as custom orders through the Legion shop I suppose. In reality there isn't a difference.

I have both, other than the markings on the side, they are identical rifles.  NO differences.  

In all honesty I do apologize.  I sincerely mean that..  I got caught in the moment, when I was asked to explain my statement in the post.  In retro-spect, I should have kept my comments to myself.  

But I will say, from this post and all that has been stated above, even though they are technically the same guns, there is a difference between the 2,  markings and value wise..  To collectors, you can be assured in the future that the Arsenal Legion SGL will be in more demand than the FIME...

The only differences I can tell are the markings and the paint is a little different.

Ive owned both.  They were seriously the same exact gun apart from one saying Arsenal and the other saying FIME.  The only way an Arsenal becomes more desirable and valuable is because people put more value on the name.

I actually sold the Arsenal because it was "worth" so much more and kept the FIME.

No necessarily.  Like the SGL, the Polytech Spiker and GSAD Spiker are the same rifle (different importer).  GSAD rifles bring $400-500 more than a Polytech because they are more rare because a lot less were imported.  There are a lot more Arsenal SGL rifles out there (imported from 2009 to 2012) than FIME rifles (only imported for 6 -8 months).  I'm betting in 20 years the FIME will be more expensive because of limited rarity.

Fime's reply to this question.

"Thank you for contacting The FIME Group regarding our SGL line of rifles.
We are Izhmash’S new official partner in the US.
Saiga Legion has been incorporated into the Izhmash factory and the rifles they are producing are of the
same original Legion technology. The only thing that has changed is the name on the receivers.
We have a close working relationship with Arsenal, Inc and will continue to use
their US made components in our manufacturing so you can expect the same high quality and standards.
Thank you for your interest and your support."

No worries man, apology accepted!

I agree with you. Though I will continue to argue that there's no difference in quality, brand names do resonate strongly. I agree with you on that!

Well there you have it.

Arsenal - Las Vegas

FIME - Las Vegas

Hello?

No difference.

Probably a way for Arsenal to import more guns or something.

I believe it had more to do with Arsenal Bulgaria not liking the Arsenal name on Russian rifles.

100% (As dskeet mentioned earlier).

Same company, same location, same guns, same process....different name.

Which all goes back to Arsenal/Kvar diversifying beyond products from the Bulgarian factory. As a 922r conversion was required, the (all encompassing) name of "arsenal" both rankled the Bulgarians and created confusion in the marketplace.

Also worth mentioning/considering that Arsenal/Kvar had a pretty specific relationship with Izhmash as the SGL's were imported in a configuration unlike the standard Saigas (sans rear trigger group and possibly only with pilot holes in the mag well location).

Appreciate everyone's input and going to put this to bed. But below is a link to a great article, and below that is what is in this article explaining what I understood of the Legion custom shop.  If you notice in the previous posting about FIME's explanation - they specifically state that "Saiga Legion has been incorporated into the Izhmash Factory" .  Based on that, and the reason Arsenal's Receiver's are marked Legion Izhevsk is because they were manufactured by the Legion Ltd. custom shop process, when FIME took over importation and conversion,  Legion Ltd. had been incorporated into Izhmash and the receivers were thus marked "Made in Russia by Izhmash" ..

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Link to Full Article
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Below is what I was referring to about possibly being of higher quality..

"Taking the extremely high-quality of the Izhmash products to the next level is the factory’s custom shop, Legion Ltd., Arsenal Inc.’s partner on the SGL20 project. Legion Ltd. has its own production line where it manufactures high-end variants of the factory’s standard production guns, utilizing hand-selected components and employing detailed attention to fit and finish.
So how did a custom shop of a renowned Russian arsenal get involved with a Las Vegas-based Kalashnikov manufacturer? “We pride ourselves as being a manufacturer of the highest quality products,” says Harry Pakhanyan of Arsenal Inc. “This partnership between Arsenal Inc. and Legion Ltd. is the result of mutual goals and shared visions.”

It's hair splitting. Other than hearsay and marketing, you have no solid evidence that there are any differences between Arsenal/legion marked SGL rifles, and their FIME cousins.

To me the Arsenal marked rifles are worth a touch more as they have different markings... do they both shoot? Sure... but one would definitely be worth more to me.



Fime 95 on the top, Arsenal 94 on bottom.



Initially you can see a slight finish difference between the folder button/latch.





Stocks... Fime top, Arsenal bottom...



Fime Markings... note the lack of Izhmash mark on the front trunion and the additional mark on the receiver...



Arsenal SGL31-94 Markings... (sorry about the "hair" from the safe, not a scratch)



Fime SGL31-95 Receiver Markings...



Arsenal SGL31-94 Receiver Markings... Much cleaner markings here...

Some of the early FIMEs had the same markings on the trunnions other than the shop info and izhmash logo on the receiver which I really like . Although the "circled N" seems to be stamped out lighter on the FIME rifles.
You could barely see the circled n on mine but if you go to the bigger pic you will see it's stamped lighty.





To see the bigger pic go here

A difference with no distinction.

AK snobbery always cracks me up. It's like two hillbillies arguing over who has the nicest outhouse.

 

LOL True to a point.

Just for the sake of folks who may come here for information; if you want a Russian AK, if you want an AK100 style AK, if you want an AK made in the same factory that Mr. Kalashnikov himself reported to, if you just want a good quality AK, do not hesitate to buy an FIME for what you consider to be a reasonable price. I have examples of both and the only difference besides the marking is the FIME guns have a little darker finish. I think the FIME  finish looks a little more authentic. In case you've ever studied color charts, there is more than one shade of black but if you're me you have to see them side by side to realize the difference.

Not that I care to get into a trivial technicalities argument but back when I asked KVAR, I was told that FIME Las Vegas performed the same conversions with the same parts to the same specs while at least initially trained by and under the supervision of the same people that Arsenal Las Vegas used. Don't care about who else quotes what but as far as I'm concerned they're identical guns made in the same factory converted in the same city by two companies that had a relationship to the manufacturer.

I have always been of the impression that my Arsenal guns would probably be worth more (because of the truly bizarre and rampant anal retentive silliness that is today's world) but unless you're buying one at record high prices with the hope of making money on it, I think it's a moot point. I didn't buy mine to sell so it really doesn't matter. Got a smoking deal on the Arsenals, paid almost twice as much for the FIMEs. It all balances out.  I love them all the same and wouldn't change a thing. But wait....what if (insert multiple fantasy scenarios why Arsenal vs FIME markings matter)? Carry on.

You basically just said what everyone else except the OP has been saying.

Honestly - was just looking for input on the differences..  

Kumbaya ..  The best AK Ever LOL is below... Enjoy..