25 yards off hand

Proctor on head position while shooting (59 sec video)

Ben Stoeger on finding the Dot (5 min video)

His analogy to your mouse pointer is excellent.

Going to try this dot thing again. With damage to my right eye from Optic Nueritis, Dots look really dim and fuzzy + my astigmatism kinda makes everything oblong.
Just playing around in my basement, so far, I think I like the green better than red. I do have to turn the brightness up to the max or 1 level below max, so I'm sure I'll be killing batteries quicker.
I had tried the ACSS reticle last year, and if the damage to my eye wasn't there, I'd probably like that one, but it was just a giant blob unfortunately.

Range day with some RMRs and FF3 on the custom Mk2.

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I'm still trying to like dots, but not there yet. No dots on any pistols right now. Was going to put the 407K I have laying around on my 22/45, but no guarantee I can still use irons. Guess I have to wait till I buy something else to put it on. Could slap it on my Platypus, but really dislike the small supplied rear sight I've to to switch to with a dot

My next gun is going to be a 22/45 and a 407g, I couldn't care less if it has irons or the capability to fit them.

Jump in with both feet, you'll learn to swim.

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Here is one I have with a SRO.

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Who does the best ACRO cuts these days?

5 shots
50y
3.5 inches
G19 gen5 + RMR
Glock Perf trigger with 5.5 connector

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Nice! I just started cranking rounds through my Gen 5, and strangely enough, I shoot it better than most of my guns.

The 7A (Flex) is much better, and it comes with two different switches to choose from.

Damn that’s good. Nice shooting

https://thecurrentga.org/2023/10/18/misleading-statistics-info-in-savannah-police-deal-for-500-new-guns/

Rozier says experienced law enforcement professionals taking his training show improved accuracy with the newer optics technology. But he would not recommend teaching new trainees on red-dot sights until they have mastered shooting fundamentals   stance, grip, sight alignment, sight picture, breathing control, trigger control and follow through.

"It's not going to turn a crappy shooter into a phenomenal shooter," Rozier said of the optics. "It's actually going to make a crappy shooter terrible because they don't have the fundamentals."

Gavin told The Current that SPD trainees would still be learning shooting fundamentals after the force acquires red-dot optics.

"We know that this is something that will ease up on some of those critical marks, which a lot of times is the stress fire. These allow for easier views," Gavin said. "It doesn't change the fact that we still teach everybody the same fundamental weapons, so they know how to shoot iron sights."

About 20% of Savannah recruit failures in 2022 were due to firearm proficiency, according to SPD statistics.

Gavin said purchasing new red-dot sights seemed the right solution to solving one problem quickly.

What zero targets do y'all like?

I like the shoot and see hi-viz targets from various makers. I start around 5-7 yards, get it centered, then back it up to 15 and dial it it. I then confirm around 25yds and call it good. I'm sure I could put it in a rest or something, but it's been good enough for my uses. I usually follow it up with a trip to the steel range to confirm zero.

In my experience, it’s MUCH easier to teach novices to shoot with a red dot. It’s easier for them to focus on stance, grip, trigger, etc. with the simpler, more intuitive sighting system.

+1

My oldest son learned on a dot and his pistol shooting is incredible. He was shooting 4 inch 15 round groups at 10y with a gen3 G19 when he was 12 years old.

Ruger 22/45 22LR
G19.5 Trijicon SRO
Great day shooting 25 and 50 yard steel plates yesterday!
Getting faster and faster homies.

Range all to myself on some weekdays. People to lazy to shoot I Suppose.
Like my own personal gun range. Turning into a bit of a Gun Range Hero while everyone else is home watching soap operas and eating bon bons. lol

Weekdays?

Some people gotta work



Joking aside, my weekday range trips are usually at lunch time/break. Otherwise I wouldnt get there very often

Quiet range is best range though. General public can  make you question youre safety sometimes

It is packed with people and muzzle sweeping rookies on the weekends.
Shooting 25 yard transitions at 4 steel plates. I'm 6.3 and an old man with a shattered left knee and left shoulder. Out shooting hotshot younguns is my game.


Favorite pistols to shoot.

Amen on that.

Even though my range is private, every now and then, maybe once or twice a year i run into a member that you never see there and I just want to wait them out or leave and come back the next day.

These are the ones that place a target 7-10 yds away and hit the legs or feet on the target stand.

Well, looks like I'm going to have to go Sig Romeo 1 Pro 6moa and RMR 6.5 moa for dots.
Optic Neuritis damaged my right eye and dots are dim, plus my astigmatism doesn't like holosun 2 moa dots green or red.
The Sig I just bought is pretty decent in my right eye, but damn near a perfect circle in my undamaged right.
Had the opportunity to finally check out an RMR mounted on a Staccato C2, it was a 07 6.5moa and it also looked almost perfect.

Pic thread.

I can't believe I'm saying this but my gen5 g19 with GPT and RMR + TLR7 has dethroned my trusted pair of gen3 19s (OEM trigger with dot connector).

The GPT with the 5.5 connector is such a great add. My groups on a timer at 50Y with this trigger really pushed me over the ledge.

I sent a plain gen5 slide off to Battlewerx so I can have a duplicate.

The wait begins.

Walther PDP Pro w/ Holosun SCS-PDP-GR

@bad2006z72

A 407k is available in a 6moa although it is smaller.

ETA a EPS Carry and EPS also.

Agreed. The red dot doesn’t allow them to form bad habits with poor presentation which is the key to being fast with a red dot. By learning with irons and then transferring to a red dot you will be creating more challenges learning the dot because they will have to unlearn all their bad habits. This just adds to frustration. A lot of the people you hear saying red dots suck or are slow, are long time iron sight shooters who are actually mediocre shooters with a dot because iron sights run cover for their poor presentation, grip, and stance. The red dot doesn’t let them hide these things, the dot holds them accountable and it shows in their speed and accuracy. When it comes to LE agencies, those who have embraced red dots and required transitional training have seen annual scores increase by a significant margin. Once you learn how to use the red dot, it is just like it is on a rifle, it is a force multiplier that gives you superior situational awareness, speed and accuracy.

This.

I learned on irons and still have to remind myself to focus on the target not the dot. Also, I find myself losing the dot when I transition between targets in a match.
It's a struggle sometimes.

I'm still unlearning irons.

Same here.

It took me about 2000 rds to unfuck myself from the bad presentation and grip I didn't know I had using irons all those years. I was a 15-20 yd shooter at best with irons. Groups were 12" at best. Now I can shoot dots and also irons 100% more proficient and accurately. Was hitting a 12" steel at 100yds the other day 8 out of ten times.

I was also a one eye open shooter with irons and the dot trained me to shoot both eyes open and now I can see irons both eyes open also. Of course now I have dots on everything and I'm never going back.

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Acro on a C&H plate.

QFT

Improving pistol marksmanship: How to get rid of the phantom FLINCH

Once upon a time I had terrible undiagnosed flinch and blamed the gun, the ammo, whatever - for years. In desperation one day I asked an older shooter in the lane next to me to shoot my HK USP, as I was certain something was wrong with it. He wore out the bullseye and handed it back to me. That moment set me on the right path.  I am not the best/fastest pistol shooter, I have never been (and hope to avoid) being in a gunfight - but I can shoot 3.5-5 inch groups at 50 yards unsupported now

So - I enjoy helping people shortcut what took me a long time to realize and then remediate, and I've consistent results helping people go from flinch-fest, low left groups into shooting extremely accurately in short order. Whether they can maintain it is up to how much they dry fire at home and remember the topics below.

This is how the process typically goes:

1. Sight picture, do they understand how to line up the sights correctly (you laugh, but "I didn't know you needed the rear sight" is something I've heard after 3-4 minutes of trying to decipher the groups I was seeing). To keep it simple for basic marksmanship, I advocate a hard front sight focus with only dominant eye open (unless you have a red dot, which is a lot better ... but I digress )

2. Grip, do they have some sort of "modern" ISO + thumbs forward grip with no air gaps, etc. This helps with repeatable and quick return to target. The old Todd Jarret video  is a good one.

3. Trigger Press, can they - during dry fire - demonstrate consistently they can press the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sights. Most people can do this reasonably well.

4. Unlearn the Flinch. This is typically the real issue. If they have 1-2-3, it is almost certainly a flinch with presents itself during live fire. A flinch is a learned response in anticipation of noise/recoil and it is almost always undiagnosed (as in, the person is unaware they have it - after all, their dry fire is gtg, right?). Well, the brain is not stupid and your subconscious knows the difference between live fire and dry fire - Ive seen this play out dozens and dozens of time. When confronted with their flinch, they can acknowledge it and look to improve, or you can shut down. I've seen both paths taken. This is what I've found that works.

How to fix - a flinch must be unlearned. While it is picked up unintentionally - it must be deliberately slain within the mind of shooter and I have had great success doing this using  snap caps (dummy rounds) . This is what I do:
- Place shooter at 7 yards with cardboard target and a generous aiming point (an X, a drawn circle, etc).
- I will mix their magazine with both live ammo and snap caps, randomly. I have them load without looking into the mag to see the order of things to come.
- Upon the beep (you dont have to have a timer but you should), they slowly draw and fire 1 shot for accuracy at the aiming point (we are going for max accuracy, but might as well get in the reps)
- I'm watching the muzzle of the pistol like a hawk. When the shooter hits a snap cap, you may see the gun jerk slightly, the arms/gun may dip, or sights wobble. After a few snap caps have been "shot" and they recognize they do indeed have a flinch, I start to verbally coach them "Pretend this next shot is a dummy round - press the trigger to the rear and let it surprise you. Do not try to anticipate it or control the gun, just let the striker fall just like your dry fire". If they persist in flinching, we go back to some dry fire to verify (to them) they can do it.
- Eventually, it starts to connect. Some people it may take several range sessions, but Ive seen others drop a bad flinch within a box of ammo. Usually, when you start to stack rounds, it helps their confidence a lot as well, as does pinging steel at distance.

This mastery over the flinch has to become completely automatic - especially when you start adding speed and dynamic shooting stages, or else a flinch can creep back in if you do not guard against it. At first it may take a lot of mental power to not anticipate the recoil, but it soon becomes reflexive.

Finally, while this is fairly long (25 min), this video is the absolute best overview of what I just explained being demonstrated and remediated.  If you struggle with this topic its definitely worth the watch.

@mk318

World class summary!

You don't need to unlearn irons.  You need to learn how to shoot irons correctly.  Focus on the target with irons too.  All the people that say dots are better because of target focus were shooting irons incorrectly, so of course a dot is better, you are now shooting sights the way you should.

Irons don't let you form bad habit, bad practice and bad teaching does.  All the instructors that see a big improvement when going to dots did a shit job teaching new shooters with iron.

I’m not sure where to even begin.

Bought two solar powered Holosun SCS made for the Glock MOS on sale for $150 each.
Made to fit Glock MOS without the plate. Cowitnesses with factory irons!!
No need for supressor sites, RDS mounting plates or battery.
Took it out to the fun range yesterday. This sight kicks ass.
50 yard one foot steel plate almost every shot.
25 yard 4 each 1foot steel plate transitions...gun range hero speed and accuracy.
Get out and practice dudes. Become an American bad ass with a pistol, it's your fucking birth right.

Pair of G34s.

Battlewerx slide #4 on its way back to me. 4 weeks for cut and DLC refinish.

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Of course you don't.   Let me guess, you are a LEO instructor that teaches front sight focus

Front sight focus with irons.
Target focus with red dot.
You gots it backwards Baconfat

Nope.  Target focus with both.

Nope,  target focus for both.  Just like focusing on the dot make shooting with a RDS worse, so does focusing on the front sight with iron.

I care about irons on my pistol about as much as I care about the size and color of the needle of my cars tachometer.

Yeah I'm glad it's there but I really don't pay any attention to it.

Great analogy.  Racecar drivers like the tach front and center, easy to see quickly.  Minivan drivers don't really care because performance doesn't matter to them.

Haha. Poor trolling. You're consistent I'll give you that.

It's all digital now, like red dots.

Are you the Racecar driver in this analogy?