9mm HST bullets perform very well at the sig velocities if one needs an alternative source other then the standard sig bullets. I use pulls in 38 Super, another really good bullet for high velocities is the barnes Tac line.

One thing to keep in mind as the prices of regular defense loads of the .357 Sig climbs (it is currently still cheaper) it gets closer to the cost of the boutique full powered .38 Super rounds put out by Underwood and Corbon that essentially match the power of the .357 Sig (of just over 500 ft. lbs. of energy).  But of course boutique.357 Sig rounds are closer to 600 ft. lbs.

Yup. I'm carrying 147gr HSTs loaded to 1275 as we speak

Nothing to sneeze at

Actually the 40 S&W was a downgrade from the 10mm, because after the FBI adopted the 10mm they realized many small statured agents and women could not get their hands around a 10mm or control the recoil, so the 40 S&W was created from a shortened 10mm case, to make it easier for people to grasp the weapon.

Yes, thank you. I bought 500 147 HST for this purpose based on 03RNs experiences and recommendation on another board. Since Speer 125 gr Gold Dot component bullets are unavailable I had the idea to experiment with Speers 125 gr 357 Mag bullet, swaged down slightly if necessary, but those damn things aren't available right now either. They're a plated bullet, albeit a rather super-duty plated bullet but like I said, there ain't none.

Plan "C" is cup point cast bullets, cast from 20:1 to start with and powdercoated. I can blend alloys well enough so I can tweak them from this point. It's too cold to do any of this right now but planning and scheming is one of the best parts of new projects.

One of the issues with the Speer bullet is when available determining which it is that’s available. They have two flavors of 125gr Sig bullet. One is a faster expanding version which gives reduced penetration, still FBI minimum just the shorter end, the other is a deeper penetrating version. Those two bullets were loaded in 4 different skus as I recall. Two of which shared all but either the first or the first and second number denoting 20rd (personal protection marked) or 50rd box. The other two skus one was the more common the other was for a particular contract as I understand it and cropped up as overrun. When I was more invested in 357 Sig I had them pretty much to memory but moved on and since forgotten.

Sierra has a similar situation going on as well. They list at least two 124 gr 357 SIG bullets.

There have been a lot of replies since I last posted, and instead of addressing each one individually, I'm just going to make a few summations and overall observations.

It's interesting how fickle the gun community is.  You give one opinion that's contrary to the perceived "accepted" norm and you get instantly attacked!!

The amount of cope in gun community logic is also incredibly telling.  All pistol rounds suck just as equally, there is no noticeable difference between different calibers in terms of effectiveness and stopping power.  38 special stops just as well at 357 magnum in humans and game.  

Since all pistol rounds suck equally, 9mm is the best pistol round because its the most popular, and you can squeeze an extra round or two of capacity out of it.  

"If there was a "better" caliber / cartridge than X, the government would be using it."  - Gov switches from 5.56 to 277 Fury  "The Gov doesn't know WTF they're doing"

I remember hearing that same argument for 5.56 and greentip for years "the government uses it, so it's the best".  Meanwhile, the gov had been looking at developing more effective ammo options for decades and finally did adopt such with M855A1.

Again, gun community logic / thinking.  A LOT of cope involved. Any indication that their pet round may be insufficient, evidence / logic be damned, and they all jump on the attack bandwagon.  

38 special and 357 magnum use the exact same bullets.  They are exactly the same.  The can also appear, in a lot of cases, to have similar performance in gel (similar penetration, etc).  357 magnum is WELL documented in both humans and animals to be a much more effective stopper by an order of magnitude than 38 special. (although we do have ONE ARFcommer who thinks 357 Magnum is "small caliber" because of the diameter of the bullet )

What is the difference?  Velocity / energy!

As @03RN (and many others off this thread) have pointed out in their own first hand experiences, 38 special doesn't kill things nearly as well as 357 magnum.  Even though they use the exact same bullet design, so what' the difference?  Velocity / energy!

People love throwing pop phrases out like, "all handgun rounds suck".  Well, some handgun rounds suck a LOT less than others.  

Until the 9mm BPLE came out, 9mm had a horrible track record for stopping perps.  That extra velocity of the BPLE round was what made the difference between the 9mm being a poor stopper and not.  just another example of brute force / velocity increase alone (in a PISTOL) was enough to increase effectiveness WITHOUT advances in bullet design.  So for those who say that energy / velocity in pistols "doesn't matter", why did the velocity and energy increase in the old 9HP round make such a drastic difference in effectiveness?

Why does 357 magnum have such a drastic increase in performance in 2 and 4 legged critters over 38 special?

Lots of COPE here, as others have said.  Again, I am not even attacking any other calibers.  I said nothing to put 9mm, or any other rounds down at all.  I said nothing negative about them.  All I did was post how great of a self defense round 357 Sig is.  For some reason, that seems to rile up the trolls and the karens on this board.  

Since the gun community loves pop phrases, here is one for you.  You don't take flak unless you're over the target.

When people defensively attack you in reaction to something neutral that you're stating, it's because you touched a nerve and exposed a truth that they don't want revealed, because it threatens them!

As for me?  I'm very happy and confident with my new EDC round!  

I didn’t see where you were attacked and the rest of that is a lot of projection on your part. I doubt anyone in this thread is clinging to a magazine full of 9mm because someone on the internet just bought a .357 Sig and now has decided it’s the best round. I doubt anyone feels threatened by your opinions that .357 Sig is better than 9mm.

Handgun rounds suck.

Reread the first two pages of this thread.

If you "refuse to see it" then that's a lot of projection on your part.    

Some handgun rounds suck a lot less than others.

Refuse to see what? What am I projecting?  What are you even talking about? Are you alright?

Case in point!

Attached File

It’s dead, Jim

Thread reopened due to user request.  Keep it technical and refrain from any personally directed observations, please.

I know I was impressed by that old timer in Texas that dropped the bad guy in the church. One shot with the .357 sig and he dropped like a sack of potatoes.

A buddy of mine carries a single stack P239. That gun is lights out accurate and someone gave him 500 rounds of Gold Dot

I like my Sig 239 in .357 Sig, but I don't feel the need to add another gun in that caliber.

The gel tests for the Underwood 357 Sig 124gr Nosler JHP are insane!!  This guy does a LOT of gel testing, with many different calibers and rounds.  I've seen all kinds of different performances.  Nothing I've seen for pistols in gel comes close to these results, even 10mm!  660 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, 4" stretch cavity, over 12" of penetration.  Massive wound cavity and devastation!  It truly is 357 magnum in an auto pistol!!

Would be interested to see his retained weight. I had abysmal performance with that bullet staying together when going 200fps less than that. He had enough to stay together and penetrate in gel but would be curious about barrier performance.

ETA: Attached File

That's the one thing I don't like about his gel test videos, he gives measurements but not bullet weights.  What was your retained weight?  From the looks of it, your results match the others I've seen with Underwood's loading.  The bullet frags and sheds petals, much like the old Remington 357 Magnum SJHP which had a factory loading of 1,450 fps from a 4" barrel revolver.  Which is why I like this round so much, almost perfectly duplicates the performance of those legendary 96% one shot stop records in an auto pistol.  

It is NOT a load I would choose if expecting to shoot through barriers, but I imagine it would penetrate anyway through brute force alone.  Much like how the Remington 357 Magnum sjhp rounds would most likely muscle through most barriers due to sheer brute force alone.

In this video where he compares it with a 357 magnum, he shoots it through a wood barrier, and it actually penetrates more than the bare gel shot.

I’ll measure it and let you know I know right where that is. My issue with not choosing it for barriers is we are surrounded by them daily and can’t pick where we are in the shooting that we depend on them or we wouldn’t go. Those old SJHP 357s did really well in a lot of things and there street credentials of the era are deserved.

I think if they added a cannelure like the old Remington SJHP it would help. If you shed a bunch of weight but the core can still penetrate to the depths you need it can work even if not perfect. I like the Buffalo bore barnes loading not sure if they offer it in 357 Sig but that bullet being solid hangs together nicely at speed.

Anyone else see this new Double Tap 357 Sig test?  Crazy explosive terminal performance!  Like a grenade.  Perfect summer carry round.



Any updates on this, @Gunnie357

My apologies 79% 99gr, for comparison HST, VCrown, and Barnes all gave 100%.

About 80% weight retention, and ~100 grains out of 124 is not bad!  Plenty of mass left in the bullet core.

Not bad but remember that’s through denim with no other barriers involved. Something like Critical duty will loose none in denim yet shed 30% in auto glass if this is loosing that much in denim what’s it going to do in steel or glass or bone.

ETA: my point being while this might be a fine bullet there’s far better options so why settle.

I can’t believe that ANY gunowners refer to anything FBI.  That is the most corrupt agency in America.  

Why would you trust anything they say?

They openly support Joe Biden and his takedown of America.

Op. It is a great cartridge. I’ve had one since around 2005.

I still have a few. P226 elite and P229 stainless elite. P320 and P320SC G27 with conversion barrel. And the one I just did an G22c with an oem G31c barrel in it. A real ported one is a hair raising bastard. I love the caliber and have 800-900 gold dots tucked away for it. 357Sig is still amazing. Always get a 40 barrel if the gun came as a 357. Just for ammo options.

I’m currently trying to find a very very rare gun. Springfield XD Tactical .357

I bet that would be a hard one to find. With all the different 357 Sigs you’ve got the ability to run which is your favorite. I had a G23, P226, P229 the 229 was always my favorite. Always thought a P239 would be a nice addition.

What if they said birds weren't real?  Would you suddenly believe they were?

I don't recall them saying that.  But, I have done my own research.  Birds are real.  So, you can stop worrying about that.  

They facilitated a takedown of a sitting President (Trump).  They continue to cover up the crimes of the existing President (Biden / Obama).  

Why in the world would you trust them on anything?

Because they showed their work.

Do you disagree with the opinion that penetration needs to be between12-18"?

They’ve probably tested more ammunition for performance in shootings than any two or three entities combined. You do realize that the group who does ammo testing isn’t the same group who does investigations right?

Yeah. That’s the challange.

239 is one I would have gone for too. Another I’d like to see is an 357 conversion barrel for a Springfield XDS 40.

Blain, you know there's no evidence for "one shot stop" numbers, right?

357 Sig is a blast to shoot out of my P239

Penetration of 12-18" is a good start.  But, it is not the only criteria.  It is simply the ante into the poker game.  

Federal 124 9mm HST and Federal 180 .40 cal HST, at first glance, both appear to have the exact same penetration and expansion properties into gel.  However, there is more to be considered.  A .40 cal round hits harder because of the difference in bullet weight.  Hitting harder is better.  Momentum matters.  Hunters know this.  The 9mm guys will say "doctors can't tell the difference between rounds looking at the bodies.."  That is a red herring.  The effect of hitting harder shows up immediately as an effect on the targets behavior.  A person hit harder changes more than a person  hit softer.  

Also, the .40 does better against a variety of barriers.  So, penetration is not the only criteria.  

Bottom line, the corrupt traitors in the anti American FBI picked 9mm because it is less expensive and so that female agents could shoot it better.  

You're thinking too black and white here.

I would bet the average professional operator (and citizen) scores higher with 9mm vs 40 all other variables being equal.  More hits with a 9 are more better than less hits with a 40, splits, follow-up shot accuracy, etc...  Not to mention capacity.

All these factors are considered, not just caliber performance, that's only one part of the equation.

You're letting your disdain to cloud your logical brain. 9mm does work pretty well. Even though I'm currently carrying a full power .357 magnum and agree with you that I like .40 and would prefer to carry that over a 9mm if i was a cop.

But at the end of the day because the 9mm is almost as good it is also easier to train new shooters and is cheaper. Not just ammo but for small part breakages too which also typically happen less on 9mms.

I am just as accurate with my G22 as my G17.  I am only very very slightly faster with the G17.  Splits are a gamer concept that is over emphasized in a self defense situation.  You are not going to shoot 5 targets, speed reload, and shoot 7 more targets.  It just doesn't happen.  No citizen has ever been caught on video doing a speed reload or tactical reload in a self defense situation.  

Stop thinking games apply to real life.  

I listed two rounds with the exact same penetration figures.  I'll take the one with more momentum because it hits harder.  Most of the time, a right cross hurts a fighter more than a jab.

P.S.  By the time the 9mm guys +P+ their load up for self defense, they are essentially shooting a .40 round with all the recoil and diminished "split times" that they thought they were gaining in the first place.

Are you really bringing your gamer garbage in here too?

Do you think more vital hits on target matter?  Did I say ANYTHING related only to sport shooting?  You sure did put a lot of words in my mouth.

The difference when compared side by side is there but it’s not enough for the trade offs at the agency level. Take anyone side by side and have them shoot 40 and 9mm in the same weapons and 9/10 will shoot 9mm better. Regardless of which you choose shot placement is the most important factor so if you can train more and make follow up shots easier it is a benefit that outweighs the performance.

As for barriers I’ve seen things that work in testing fail in real world and I’ve seen things not work one time that worked another. To many variables to say definitively this is the case every time.

One of the reasons I’ve been a proponent of allowing the individual the choice in equipment. If you want to run forty and are ok with the trade offs you should if you want to run 45 and are ok with the trade offs that’s ok to. They will all work and they will all fail it just depends on each individual set of parameters at that given time.

If anyone ever comes out w/ a duty gun in .30 SC & a department adopts it GD will lose their goddamn minds.

Heads would explode

Just saw a used one today at a local place.
$520.
I can check back in with them next week if you're still looking.

In honor of Paul Harrell.

Note how the 357 Sig is optimized for defense, and caused far more damage to the meat targets than the 357 Magnum!

I'd like to neck the 357 sig down to take those 32 bullets.
I only have the one barrel for a poly 80 build in 357sig.

T1NMAN got me a gun.

There is now a 357Sig pending paperwork.

Like 32 NAA Super Mag!

Always fun helping other people spend money.

You're right...once I started looking... they're not many XD 357s out there.

I think I'll be happy with my one and only 357sig being a glock 27 conversion kit.