Originally Posted By T1NMAN:


Always fun helping other people spend money.

You're right...once I started looking... they're not many XD 357s out there.

I think I'll be happy with my one and only 357sig being a glock 27 conversion kit.

Originally Posted By HawkinsID:
I am just as accurate with my G22 as my G17.  I am only very very slightly faster with the G17.  Splits are a gamer concept that is over emphasized in a self defense situation.  You are not going to shoot 5 targets, speed reload, and shoot 7 more targets.  It just doesn't happen.  No citizen has ever been caught on video doing a speed reload or tactical reload in a self defense situation.  

Stop thinking games apply to real life.  

I listed two rounds with the exact same penetration figures.  I'll take the one with more momentum because it hits harder.  Most of the time, a right cross hurts a fighter more than a jab.

P.S.  By the time the 9mm guys +P+ their load up for self defense, they are essentially shooting a .40 round with all the recoil and diminished "split times" that they thought they were gaining in the first place.

Originally Posted By Blain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR3f0SXchTE

There have been a lot of replies since I last posted, and instead of addressing each one individually, I'm just going to make a few summations and overall observations.

It's interesting how fickle the gun community is.  You give one opinion that's contrary to the perceived "accepted" norm and you get instantly attacked!!

The amount of cope in gun community logic is also incredibly telling.  All pistol rounds suck just as equally, there is no noticeable difference between different calibers in terms of effectiveness and stopping power.  38 special stops just as well at 357 magnum in humans and game.  

Since all pistol rounds suck equally, 9mm is the best pistol round because its the most popular, and you can squeeze an extra round or two of capacity out of it.  

"If there was a "better" caliber / cartridge than X, the government would be using it."  - Gov switches from 5.56 to 277 Fury  "The Gov doesn't know WTF they're doing"

I remember hearing that same argument for 5.56 and greentip for years "the government uses it, so it's the best".  Meanwhile, the gov had been looking at developing more effective ammo options for decades and finally did adopt such with M855A1.

Again, gun community logic / thinking.  A LOT of cope involved. Any indication that their pet round may be insufficient, evidence / logic be damned, and they all jump on the attack bandwagon.  

38 special and 357 magnum use the exact same bullets.  They are exactly the same.  The can also appear, in a lot of cases, to have similar performance in gel (similar penetration, etc).  357 magnum is WELL documented in both humans and animals to be a much more effective stopper by an order of magnitude than 38 special. (although we do have ONE ARFcommer who thinks 357 Magnum is "small caliber" because of the diameter of the bullet )

What is the difference?  Velocity / energy!

As @03RN (and many others off this thread) have pointed out in their own first hand experiences, 38 special doesn't kill things nearly as well as 357 magnum.  Even though they use the exact same bullet design, so what' the difference?  Velocity / energy!

People love throwing pop phrases out like, "all handgun rounds suck".  Well, some handgun rounds suck a LOT less than others.  

Until the 9mm BPLE came out, 9mm had a horrible track record for stopping perps.  That extra velocity of the BPLE round was what made the difference between the 9mm being a poor stopper and not.  just another example of brute force / velocity increase alone (in a PISTOL) was enough to increase effectiveness WITHOUT advances in bullet design.  So for those who say that energy / velocity in pistols "doesn't matter", why did the velocity and energy increase in the old 9HP round make such a drastic difference in effectiveness?

Why does 357 magnum have such a drastic increase in performance in 2 and 4 legged critters over 38 special?

Lots of COPE here, as others have said.  Again, I am not even attacking any other calibers.  I said nothing to put 9mm, or any other rounds down at all.  I said nothing negative about them.  All I did was post how great of a self defense round 357 Sig is.  For some reason, that seems to rile up the trolls and the karens on this board.  

Since the gun community loves pop phrases, here is one for you.  You don't take flak unless you're over the target.

When people defensively attack you in reaction to something neutral that you're stating, it's because you touched a nerve and exposed a truth that they don't want revealed, because it threatens them!

As for me?  I'm very happy and confident with my new EDC round!  

Originally Posted By Blain:

That's the one thing I don't like about his gel test videos, he gives measurements but not bullet weights.  What was your retained weight?  From the looks of it, your results match the others I've seen with Underwood's loading.  The bullet frags and sheds petals, much like the old Remington 357 Magnum SJHP which had a factory loading of 1,450 fps from a 4" barrel revolver.  Which is why I like this round so much, almost perfectly duplicates the performance of those legendary 96% one shot stop records in an auto pistol.  

It is NOT a load I would choose if expecting to shoot through barriers, but I imagine it would penetrate anyway through brute force alone.  Much like how the Remington 357 Magnum sjhp rounds would most likely muscle through most barriers due to sheer brute force alone.

In this video where he compares it with a 357 magnum, he shoots it through a wood barrier, and it actually penetrates more than the bare gel shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J3qOk_u3GM

Originally Posted By raygixxer89:

Dang, am I going to have to get a 357SIG bbl for my P226 or P229?!

Originally Posted By Gunnie357:

My favorite are the hogue G10

Originally Posted By Gunnie357:

The wrap around are great other then the rubber catches shirts and isn’t great for little hands.

Originally Posted By Space-Cadet:

What percentage of self defense shootings are caught on video?

Originally Posted By withoutremorse42:
I always thought .357 sig would be great in a PCC, especially one with a longer barrel

Originally Posted By withoutremorse42:
I always thought .357 sig would be great in a PCC, especially one with a longer barrel

Originally Posted By ToyCop:
Just got this back from Langdon Tactical. Just need to get the RMR mounted.


https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18568/IMG_1929-3164791.jpg

Originally Posted By HawkinsID:
I never claimed the lessons were universal.  I specifically said "most of the time".  Critical thinking.  Look it up.

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
I got a couple of Glock 32's when they first came out. I bought into the energy hype, but soon figured out that there wasn't really any gain in terminal performance. Just an increase in blast and flash. Just about any agency that adopted it has moved away from it.

Originally Posted By Space-Cadet:

You said "most of the time" in relation to a metaphor for power of the cartridge.

The thing I was posting about was

"No citizen has ever been caught on video doing a speed reload or tactical reload in a self defense situation."

Improve your reading comprehension.

Originally Posted By withoutremorse42:
I always thought .357 sig would be great in a PCC, especially one with a longer barrel

Originally Posted By Blain:


Agreed.  Kel Tec made a 40 Sub2000.  Would love to have one in 357 sig.  Imagine the underwood 68gr defenders out of a 16" barrel if they are doing ~2,100 - 2,200 fps from a 4.5"!

Originally Posted By Blain:


I have a 9mm glock model.  Should take the same 40/357 glock mags as the mag catch is the same.  Who would ream out the barrel for it to take 357 sig?

Originally Posted By HawkinsID:  Good points Blain.  

Here is why 9mm is adored by the masses ... gamer mentality.  Sure, 9mm will give people advantages in speed that can be easily measured.  But, games don't measure the terminal effectiveness of rounds on living breathing things.  I have been to matches where people even drastically download 9mm to get a speed advantage.  You might as well be shooting .22 long rifle!  

Common sense tells you hitting harder is better than hitting softer.  Hunters know this.  Boxers know this.  

Here is the irony ... by the time you +P+ up your 9mm self defense round, you are effectively shooting the .40 cal.

Originally Posted By WILSON:
If somebody tried to be as fair as possible, how do the 9x19 vs 357 SIG numbers stack up anyway?
Say 110 or 125 grain magic projectiles?  

Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum.  It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds.   Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea.  ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes?

So  I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot.  Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun.  Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up.  And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot.  Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto.  To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun.  Just my own thought - probably just me.  Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?)

In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance.  If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice.

Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum.  It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds.   Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea.  ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes?

So  I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot.  Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun.  Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up.  And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot.  Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto.  To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun.  Just my own thought - probably just me.  Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?)

In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance.  If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice.

Originally Posted By Blain:
new 68gr Underwood defender has over 700fpe with a velocity at over 2,200 fps with a massive permanent wound channel!  That's rifle like ballistics!

Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum.  It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds.   Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea.  ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes?

So  I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot.  Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun.  Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up.  And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot.  Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto.  To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun.  Just my own thought - probably just me.  Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?)

In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance.  If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice.

Originally Posted By backbencher:


Where is the data that indicates .357 Mag is a one shot stop round?