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Posted: 3/21/2024 7:40:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cb69: Start with a 40cal pistol. Buy the conversion barrel. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cb69: Originally Posted By Blain: I have a 9mm glock model. Should take the same 40/357 glock mags as the mag catch is the same. Who would ream out the barrel for it to take 357 sig? Start with a 40cal pistol. Buy the conversion barrel. We're talking about rifles here not pistols.... Originally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By HawkinsID: Good points Blain. Here is why 9mm is adored by the masses ... gamer mentality. Sure, 9mm will give people advantages in speed that can be easily measured. But, games don't measure the terminal effectiveness of rounds on living breathing things. I have been to matches where people even drastically download 9mm to get a speed advantage. You might as well be shooting .22 long rifle! Common sense tells you hitting harder is better than hitting softer. Hunters know this. Boxers know this. Here is the irony ... by the time you +P+ up your 9mm self defense round, you are effectively shooting the .40 cal.  9x19mm is significantly less expensive than .357 SIG. A given size magazine can hold more rounds of 9x19mm than it can .357 SIG. 9x19mm +P comes close to .357 SIG factory ballistics, which induced numerous departments to move to 9x19mm +P. There are far more 9x19mm firearms in the market, in the US or worldwide, than in .357 SIG. Gamers are a small part of the market, and did not drive the shift away from .357 SIG or .40 S&W. 9mm is only "significantly" more expensive in FMJ. Defensive prices are fairly compatible, especially if you're buying from someone like Underwood or double tap. 1 or 2 rounds isn't significant, for a ~15 round pistol IMHO. Statistically, only a few shots are fired at most in the vast majority of self defense situations. Also, each ROUND hits harder than the 9mm round, so you have a higher chance to incapacitate with less shots which more than makes up for the 1 or 2 fewer rounds. You can also carry extra mags, but realistically if things are that bad then you should have a long gun anyway. Most of the major pistols that most people care about can be converted to 357 sig with a simple conversion barrel, so non issue. |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 7:42:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By erichard: I didn't make the original quote, but there is data that suggests there are more one shot stops with that caliber than any other pistol caliber (as I recall, .380 did well for some reason too). It was a fairly large study. The problem is, is that because people generally have a lot of rounds in their Glock 19 or 17 that they lay down a string of fire automatically, knowing they have plenty to spare. This means they never gave 9 a chance for just one shot. For 357 Magnum, they are shot out of 6 shot revolvers generally speaking, so people in the old days used to conserve ammo more, and maybe pause after one shot. This gives it a chance to be the one shot stopper of all time even though it may or may not be better (although likely better in any case.) Hard to draw conclusions of causality in most if not nearly all studies unless they are blind random controlled prospective studies, not retrospective ones, which are rarely done for this type of thing (if ever). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By erichard: Originally Posted By backbencher: Where is the data that indicates .357 Mag is a one shot stop round? I didn't make the original quote, but there is data that suggests there are more one shot stops with that caliber than any other pistol caliber (as I recall, .380 did well for some reason too). It was a fairly large study. The problem is, is that because people generally have a lot of rounds in their Glock 19 or 17 that they lay down a string of fire automatically, knowing they have plenty to spare. This means they never gave 9 a chance for just one shot. For 357 Magnum, they are shot out of 6 shot revolvers generally speaking, so people in the old days used to conserve ammo more, and maybe pause after one shot. This gives it a chance to be the one shot stopper of all time even though it may or may not be better (although likely better in any case.) Hard to draw conclusions of causality in most if not nearly all studies unless they are blind random controlled prospective studies, not retrospective ones, which are rarely done for this type of thing (if ever). There’s a lot to unpack with that there’s also contradictions in that study that came up with that data. Like you need less rounds on average with 22 than with 9/38/357/40/45 to incapacitate. Which I’d hope no one believes without question. Incapacitation as used gave no discrepancies between forced to stop and choose to stop. Similarly the numbers deciding if a round was more or less fatal indicate in no way if it was fatal five seconds or five days later. I’d recommend reading the below in its entirety. http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/ |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 7:48:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: In standard 9mm or are we allowing +p? Speer Gold Dot 125 gr Speer factory gold dot is 1350 124 gr 9mm +p is 1220 Penetration numbers on the two loadings are Heavy clothing 18.30 and 14.13 Hornady Critical Duty 135gr 9mm +p 1162 15” Sig 1221 13.4” ETA: the Critical Duty however gives better penetration in 357 Sig in every other barrier then the 9mm+P if that’s a goal and the trade offs are worth it to the person Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: In standard 9mm or are we allowing +p? Speer Gold Dot 125 gr Speer factory gold dot is 1350 124 gr 9mm +p is 1220 Penetration numbers on the two loadings are Heavy clothing 18.30 and 14.13 Hornady Critical Duty 135gr 9mm +p 1162 15” Sig 1221 13.4” ETA: the Critical Duty however gives better penetration in 357 Sig in every other barrier then the 9mm+P if that’s a goal and the trade offs are worth it to the person You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. Originally Posted By Gunnie357: If you want 357 Sig in a single stack that question was answered in 1929. I’m running 147s at 1225, 124gr at 1375, and 115gr at 1475 could probably add some juice to the 115s and can go more on the 124s but no need. ETA: Ive ran 124s as high as 1425 in a colt barrel That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads, which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 7:54:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Another interesting test that gets parroted as gospel is Thompson LaGarde as being why 45 ACP is so much better then 9mm and 38. Yet the testing was wildly inconsistent, for instance the 45 they tested was a 45 Colt Flat Nose and Hollow Point and .455 HP. Yet all other calibers used round nose or FMJ which seems quite fair. One of the tests they shot ten rounds as fast as they could through the lungs and recorded how long it took for the test subject to die. The test subject being cows. Another test they hung cows by the feet and measured how much they swung when shot.
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Posted: 3/21/2024 8:04:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gunnie357]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: In standard 9mm or are we allowing +p? Speer Gold Dot 125 gr Speer factory gold dot is 1350 124 gr 9mm +p is 1220 Penetration numbers on the two loadings are Heavy clothing 18.30 and 14.13 Hornady Critical Duty 135gr 9mm +p 1162 15” Sig 1221 13.4” ETA: the Critical Duty however gives better penetration in 357 Sig in every other barrier then the 9mm+P if that’s a goal and the trade offs are worth it to the person You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. Originally Posted By Gunnie357: If you want 357 Sig in a single stack that question was answered in 1929. I’m running 147s at 1225, 124gr at 1375, and 115gr at 1475 could probably add some juice to the 115s and can go more on the 124s but no need. ETA: Ive ran 124s as high as 1425 in a colt barrel That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? I’ve chronographed gold dot it was pretty close to the box velocities when I did so. I also specifically pointed out that that increase gained an edge in barrier performance. If you don’t recall I’m a fan of 357 Sig. My point in all of that was Wilson asked about the comparison I showed two extremely comparable and available loadings and that 357 Sig had an edge in those if you felt those things were important. Also the person who asked for it to be as fair as possible with 9mm +p and 357 Sig. Also my cute 9mm loads you critiqued are in reference to something I don’t believe you even read. He said he felt 357 Sig would be better in a single stack handgun my response was to show 38 Super could be used to get comparable performance and was in a single stack. |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 8:16:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: I’ve chronographed gold dot it was pretty close to the box velocities when I did so. I also specifically pointed out that that increase gained an edge in barrier performance. If you don’t recall I’m a fan of 357 Sig. My point in all of that was Wilson asked about the comparison I showed two extremely comparable and available loadings and that 357 Sig had an edge in those if you felt those things were important. Also the person who asked for it to be as fair as possible with 9mm +p and 357 Sig. Also my cute 9mm loads you critiqued are in reference to something I don’t believe you even read. He said he felt 357 Sig would be better in a single stack handgun my response was to show 38 Super could be used to get comparable performance and was in a single stack. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: In standard 9mm or are we allowing +p? Speer Gold Dot 125 gr Speer factory gold dot is 1350 124 gr 9mm +p is 1220 Penetration numbers on the two loadings are Heavy clothing 18.30 and 14.13 Hornady Critical Duty 135gr 9mm +p 1162 15” Sig 1221 13.4” ETA: the Critical Duty however gives better penetration in 357 Sig in every other barrier then the 9mm+P if that’s a goal and the trade offs are worth it to the person You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. Originally Posted By Gunnie357: If you want 357 Sig in a single stack that question was answered in 1929. I’m running 147s at 1225, 124gr at 1375, and 115gr at 1475 could probably add some juice to the 115s and can go more on the 124s but no need. ETA: Ive ran 124s as high as 1425 in a colt barrel That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? I’ve chronographed gold dot it was pretty close to the box velocities when I did so. I also specifically pointed out that that increase gained an edge in barrier performance. If you don’t recall I’m a fan of 357 Sig. My point in all of that was Wilson asked about the comparison I showed two extremely comparable and available loadings and that 357 Sig had an edge in those if you felt those things were important. Also the person who asked for it to be as fair as possible with 9mm +p and 357 Sig. Also my cute 9mm loads you critiqued are in reference to something I don’t believe you even read. He said he felt 357 Sig would be better in a single stack handgun my response was to show 38 Super could be used to get comparable performance and was in a single stack. My mistake, but you weren't clear in what you were referencing and I thought you were talking about 9mm. I've chronied rounds too, and got 1,380 fps from the 357 Sig gold dots (1,375 box velocity) from a 4" barrel, so pretty much spot on. I also got 1,430 fps from a 4.5" barrel with the same load, so there's that. Add 100 fps to each of those numbers to what I've gotten with Underwood and Doubletap though, and that's still not close to max loading for 357 Sig. What barrel length did you use in your velocity tests? Again, listed box velocities can be tricky. Which is why people think Federal 55 grain 223 for instance is "hotter" than Federal XM193. The former has a listed box velocity of 3,240fps and the later 3,180 fps. So again, my point was you can't really use box velocities as a comparison, but actual chrony numbers since most box velocity 357 sig loads are quoted from a 4" barrel (vs 5" for the 9s) and even then in my tests and others, those 357 sig box velocity numbers end up being low anyway! |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 9:09:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Gunnie357]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: My mistake, but you weren't clear in what you were referencing and I thought you were talking about 9mm. I've chronied rounds too, and got 1,380 fps from the 357 Sig gold dots (1,375 box velocity) from a 4" barrel, so pretty much spot on. I also got 1,430 fps from a 4.5" barrel with the same load, so there's that. Add 100 fps to each of those numbers to what I've gotten with Underwood and Doubletap though, and that's still not close to max loading for 357 Sig. What barrel length did you use in your velocity tests? Again, listed box velocity can be tricky. Which is why people think Federal 55 grain 223 for instance is "hotter" than Federal XM193. The former has a listed box velocity of 3,240fps and the later 3,180 fps. So again, my point was you can't really use box velocities as a comparison, but actual chrony numbers since most box velocity 357 sig loads are quoted from a 4" barrel (vs 5" for the 9s) and even then in my tests and others, those 357 sig box velocity numbers end up being low anyway! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: In standard 9mm or are we allowing +p? Speer Gold Dot 125 gr Speer factory gold dot is 1350 124 gr 9mm +p is 1220 Penetration numbers on the two loadings are Heavy clothing 18.30 and 14.13 Hornady Critical Duty 135gr 9mm +p 1162 15” Sig 1221 13.4” ETA: the Critical Duty however gives better penetration in 357 Sig in every other barrier then the 9mm+P if that’s a goal and the trade offs are worth it to the person You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. Originally Posted By Gunnie357: If you want 357 Sig in a single stack that question was answered in 1929. I’m running 147s at 1225, 124gr at 1375, and 115gr at 1475 could probably add some juice to the 115s and can go more on the 124s but no need. ETA: Ive ran 124s as high as 1425 in a colt barrel That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? I’ve chronographed gold dot it was pretty close to the box velocities when I did so. I also specifically pointed out that that increase gained an edge in barrier performance. If you don’t recall I’m a fan of 357 Sig. My point in all of that was Wilson asked about the comparison I showed two extremely comparable and available loadings and that 357 Sig had an edge in those if you felt those things were important. Also the person who asked for it to be as fair as possible with 9mm +p and 357 Sig. Also my cute 9mm loads you critiqued are in reference to something I don’t believe you even read. He said he felt 357 Sig would be better in a single stack handgun my response was to show 38 Super could be used to get comparable performance and was in a single stack. My mistake, but you weren't clear in what you were referencing and I thought you were talking about 9mm. I've chronied rounds too, and got 1,380 fps from the 357 Sig gold dots (1,375 box velocity) from a 4" barrel, so pretty much spot on. I also got 1,430 fps from a 4.5" barrel with the same load, so there's that. Add 100 fps to each of those numbers to what I've gotten with Underwood and Doubletap though, and that's still not close to max loading for 357 Sig. What barrel length did you use in your velocity tests? Again, listed box velocity can be tricky. Which is why people think Federal 55 grain 223 for instance is "hotter" than Federal XM193. The former has a listed box velocity of 3,240fps and the later 3,180 fps. So again, my point was you can't really use box velocities as a comparison, but actual chrony numbers since most box velocity 357 sig loads are quoted from a 4" barrel (vs 5" for the 9s) and even then in my tests and others, those 357 sig box velocity numbers end up being low anyway! Oh I’m well aware sometimes the box is way off. I used 4” barrel for both and they were both close enough to box listed to not really matter. As a note my 38 super loads were measured with a 4.25” Colt Commander. Underwood is popular and I believe they fill a niche for some folks. I also don’t believe they are necessary in the case of 357 Sig to get a good performing loading from a factory manufacturer. If someone thinks that’s just the ticket then that’s what they should use. ETA: I do however prefer if I must go with a boutique manufacturer to use Buffalo Bore. |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 9:48:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ToyCop: I want a 357 Sig setup for my UMP. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ToyCop: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By withoutremorse42: I always thought .357 sig would be great in a PCC, especially one with a longer barrel Someone chambered an MP5 clone in 357 Sig. https://www.hkpro.com/threads/357sig-mp5.76735/ Get a 9mm chamber and have it rebored. |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 9:56:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lilMAC25]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads, which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: In standard 9mm or are we allowing +p? Speer Gold Dot 125 gr Speer factory gold dot is 1350 124 gr 9mm +p is 1220 Penetration numbers on the two loadings are Heavy clothing 18.30 and 14.13 Hornady Critical Duty 135gr 9mm +p 1162 15” Sig 1221 13.4” ETA: the Critical Duty however gives better penetration in 357 Sig in every other barrier then the 9mm+P if that’s a goal and the trade offs are worth it to the person You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. Originally Posted By Gunnie357: If you want 357 Sig in a single stack that question was answered in 1929. I’m running 147s at 1225, 124gr at 1375, and 115gr at 1475 could probably add some juice to the 115s and can go more on the 124s but no need. ETA: Ive ran 124s as high as 1425 in a colt barrel That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads, which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? Was .44 Magnum ever issued by big police forces? 357 was, IIRC. That’s probably a good chunk of the reason why. As to blast, lack of capacity, and over penetration…all of those complaints apply to .357 Sig vs 9mm, you’re pushing a pistol cartridge load that slings a 68 gr copper projectile at 2200 FPS. You’re definitely getting increased recoil, blast, and massive over penetration vs 9mm AND losing capacity. My main complaint about .357 Sig is cost and it’s tough(er) to reload than 9mm. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/21/2024 10:17:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Originally Posted By Blain: You really are getting 357 mag performance in a 9mm size auto pistol in most cases! I think it makes for an ideal carry round.  https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNBjow4OQHM(seems like shorts can't be embeded as videos in a message?) https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNBjow4OQHM  Everything I've read/watched states it's nowhere near a .357 |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 10:27:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: There’s a lot to unpack with that there’s also contradictions in that study that came up with that data. Like you need less rounds on average with 22 than with 9/38/357/40/45 to incapacitate. Which I’d hope no one believes without question. Incapacitation as used gave no discrepancies between forced to stop and choose to stop. Similarly the numbers deciding if a round was more or less fatal indicate in no way if it was fatal five seconds or five days later. I’d recommend reading the below in its entirety. http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/ Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By erichard: Originally Posted By backbencher: Where is the data that indicates .357 Mag is a one shot stop round? I didn't make the original quote, but there is data that suggests there are more one shot stops with that caliber than any other pistol caliber (as I recall, .380 did well for some reason too). It was a fairly large study. The problem is, is that because people generally have a lot of rounds in their Glock 19 or 17 that they lay down a string of fire automatically, knowing they have plenty to spare. This means they never gave 9 a chance for just one shot. For 357 Magnum, they are shot out of 6 shot revolvers generally speaking, so people in the old days used to conserve ammo more, and maybe pause after one shot. This gives it a chance to be the one shot stopper of all time even though it may or may not be better (although likely better in any case.) Hard to draw conclusions of causality in most if not nearly all studies unless they are blind random controlled prospective studies, not retrospective ones, which are rarely done for this type of thing (if ever). There’s a lot to unpack with that there’s also contradictions in that study that came up with that data. Like you need less rounds on average with 22 than with 9/38/357/40/45 to incapacitate. Which I’d hope no one believes without question. Incapacitation as used gave no discrepancies between forced to stop and choose to stop. Similarly the numbers deciding if a round was more or less fatal indicate in no way if it was fatal five seconds or five days later. I’d recommend reading the below in its entirety. http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/ It was a trick question, fellas. There is no data. There was no data behind Marshall & Sanow, and Greg Ellifritz has never published his data. You can no more rely on Ellifritz than you can on Marhsall & Sanow. There is no way to audit their conclusions. |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 10:28:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NachoDip]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. I did. That’s why I have a 460. 1000ftlbs of energy per squeeze.  See the wear on the end of the comp? That’s holster wear. This gets carried regularly. I’m not a limp waisted candyass and love shooting it. It goes greatly with my 460SW and my Vaquero 45+p revolvers. One of my other carry guns is a G22C with a 31C barrel in it. Because 31C is awesome. 17+1 in a factory mag and 22 round backup mags. I need to find a dealer with a registered conversion kit to try on it for giggles. The V porting would be fun on auto. As others have posted energy per cartridge. When you get into the boutique full power stuff. 357 sig shines. Full power is 650 ft lbs. spicy hot +p+ 9 is 500. Another interesting one to look at is how much energy is there per magazine. It’s a weird way to consider it but it can also be a useful comparison. 17+1 in my 357 sig is 11700. G17/19X (19+1) is 10,000. My 460R (10+1) is 11,000. Sort of a moot point when an 16" AR is 36,000 ft lbs out of a 30rd mag. 48,000 out of a 40rd pmag. |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 10:29:03 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: Get a 9mm chamber and have it rebored. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By ToyCop: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By withoutremorse42: I always thought .357 sig would be great in a PCC, especially one with a longer barrel Someone chambered an MP5 clone in 357 Sig. https://www.hkpro.com/threads/357sig-mp5.76735/ Get a 9mm chamber and have it rebored. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2024 10:30:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ToyCop: Just got this back from Langdon Tactical. Just need to get the RMR mounted. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/18568/IMG_1929-3164791.jpg Daaaamn... |
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Posted: 3/21/2024 10:36:05 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: It was a trick question, fellas. There is no data. There was no data behind Marshall & Sanow, and Greg Ellifritz has never published his data. You can no more rely on Ellifritz than you can on Marhsall & Sanow. There is no way to audit their conclusions. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By erichard: Originally Posted By backbencher: Where is the data that indicates .357 Mag is a one shot stop round? I didn't make the original quote, but there is data that suggests there are more one shot stops with that caliber than any other pistol caliber (as I recall, .380 did well for some reason too). It was a fairly large study. The problem is, is that because people generally have a lot of rounds in their Glock 19 or 17 that they lay down a string of fire automatically, knowing they have plenty to spare. This means they never gave 9 a chance for just one shot. For 357 Magnum, they are shot out of 6 shot revolvers generally speaking, so people in the old days used to conserve ammo more, and maybe pause after one shot. This gives it a chance to be the one shot stopper of all time even though it may or may not be better (although likely better in any case.) Hard to draw conclusions of causality in most if not nearly all studies unless they are blind random controlled prospective studies, not retrospective ones, which are rarely done for this type of thing (if ever). There’s a lot to unpack with that there’s also contradictions in that study that came up with that data. Like you need less rounds on average with 22 than with 9/38/357/40/45 to incapacitate. Which I’d hope no one believes without question. Incapacitation as used gave no discrepancies between forced to stop and choose to stop. Similarly the numbers deciding if a round was more or less fatal indicate in no way if it was fatal five seconds or five days later. I’d recommend reading the below in its entirety. http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/ It was a trick question, fellas. There is no data. There was no data behind Marshall & Sanow, and Greg Ellifritz has never published his data. You can no more rely on Ellifritz than you can on Marhsall & Sanow. There is no way to audit their conclusions.  Oh there’s data just not necessarily data that’s helpful.
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Posted: 3/21/2024 11:17:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: It was a trick question, fellas. There is no data. There was no data behind Marshall & Sanow, and Greg Ellifritz has never published his data. You can no more rely on Ellifritz than you can on Marhsall & Sanow. There is no way to audit their conclusions. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By erichard: Originally Posted By backbencher: Where is the data that indicates .357 Mag is a one shot stop round? I didn't make the original quote, but there is data that suggests there are more one shot stops with that caliber than any other pistol caliber (as I recall, .380 did well for some reason too). It was a fairly large study. The problem is, is that because people generally have a lot of rounds in their Glock 19 or 17 that they lay down a string of fire automatically, knowing they have plenty to spare. This means they never gave 9 a chance for just one shot. For 357 Magnum, they are shot out of 6 shot revolvers generally speaking, so people in the old days used to conserve ammo more, and maybe pause after one shot. This gives it a chance to be the one shot stopper of all time even though it may or may not be better (although likely better in any case.) Hard to draw conclusions of causality in most if not nearly all studies unless they are blind random controlled prospective studies, not retrospective ones, which are rarely done for this type of thing (if ever). There’s a lot to unpack with that there’s also contradictions in that study that came up with that data. Like you need less rounds on average with 22 than with 9/38/357/40/45 to incapacitate. Which I’d hope no one believes without question. Incapacitation as used gave no discrepancies between forced to stop and choose to stop. Similarly the numbers deciding if a round was more or less fatal indicate in no way if it was fatal five seconds or five days later. I’d recommend reading the below in its entirety. http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/ It was a trick question, fellas. There is no data. There was no data behind Marshall & Sanow, and Greg Ellifritz has never published his data. You can no more rely on Ellifritz than you can on Marhsall & Sanow. There is no way to audit their conclusions.   Attached FileI wish they broke it down by caliber because I bet a lot of the revolvers were .38s |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/22/2024 12:01:44 AM EDT
[#17]
I agree. I noticed all that when it came out. Nice data to have, but don't over read it and think you now know the answers to the eternal caliber questions. Even the articles quoting trauma surgeons is questionable.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: There’s a lot to unpack with that there’s also contradictions in that study that came up with that data. Like you need less rounds on average with 22 than with 9/38/357/40/45 to incapacitate. Which I’d hope no one believes without question. Incapacitation as used gave no discrepancies between forced to stop and choose to stop. Similarly the numbers deciding if a round was more or less fatal indicate in no way if it was fatal five seconds or five days later. I’d recommend reading the below in its entirety. http://shootingthebull.net/blog/an-alternative-look-at-an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power/ |
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Posted: 3/22/2024 12:04:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lilMAC25]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NachoDip: I did. That’s why I have a 460. 1000ftlbs of energy per squeeze. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/77421/6592A18F-A3A8-4F34-A08E-EBA1D0D7594D_jpe-1977985.JPG See the wear on the end of the comp? That’s holster wear. This gets carried regularly. I’m not a limp waisted candyass and love shooting it. It goes greatly with my 460SW and my Vaquero 45+p revolvers. One of my other carry guns is a G22C with a 31C barrel in it. Because 31C is awesome. 17+1 in a factory mag and 22 round backup mags. I need to find a dealer with a registered conversion kit to try on it for giggles. The V porting would be fun on auto. As others have posted energy per cartridge. When you get into the boutique full power stuff. 357 sig shines. Full power is 650 ft lbs. spicy hot +p+ 9 is 500. Another interesting one to look at is how much energy is there per magazine. It’s a weird way to consider it but it can also be a useful comparison. 17+1 in my 357 sig is 11700. G17/19X (19+1) is 10,000. My 460R (10+1) is 11,000. Sort of a moot point when an 16" AR is 36,000 ft lbs out of a 30rd mag. 48,000 out of a 40rd pmag. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NachoDip: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. I did. That’s why I have a 460. 1000ftlbs of energy per squeeze. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/77421/6592A18F-A3A8-4F34-A08E-EBA1D0D7594D_jpe-1977985.JPG See the wear on the end of the comp? That’s holster wear. This gets carried regularly. I’m not a limp waisted candyass and love shooting it. It goes greatly with my 460SW and my Vaquero 45+p revolvers. One of my other carry guns is a G22C with a 31C barrel in it. Because 31C is awesome. 17+1 in a factory mag and 22 round backup mags. I need to find a dealer with a registered conversion kit to try on it for giggles. The V porting would be fun on auto. As others have posted energy per cartridge. When you get into the boutique full power stuff. 357 sig shines. Full power is 650 ft lbs. spicy hot +p+ 9 is 500. Another interesting one to look at is how much energy is there per magazine. It’s a weird way to consider it but it can also be a useful comparison. 17+1 in my 357 sig is 11700. G17/19X (19+1) is 10,000. My 460R (10+1) is 11,000. Sort of a moot point when an 16" AR is 36,000 ft lbs out of a 30rd mag. 48,000 out of a 40rd pmag. LockedandLoaded.com is blowing out FNX45Ts right now. Plus there is a $150 rebate from FN. grab some FN545 18 rd mags and mod the baseplate to work in the FNXT and you’ve got 18+1 rounds of HATE in your hand.
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Posted: 3/22/2024 8:54:20 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: LockedandLoaded.com is blowing out FNX45Ts right now. Plus there is a $150 rebate from FN. grab some FN545 18 rd mags and mod the baseplate to work in the FNXT and you’ve got 18+1 rounds of HATE in your hand. Not in Washington I don’t.  Would probably just load it with 45Supers. If we get an injunction I may order some of the mags though. |
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SOM
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Posted: 3/22/2024 11:06:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: Was .44 Magnum ever issued by big police forces? 357 was, IIRC. That’s probably a good chunk of the reason why. As to blast, lack of capacity, and over penetration…all of those complaints apply to .357 Sig vs 9mm, you’re pushing a pistol cartridge load that slings a 68 gr copper projectile at 2200 FPS. You’re definitely getting increased recoil, blast, and massive over penetration vs 9mm AND losing capacity. My main complaint about .357 Sig is cost and it’s tough(er) to reload than 9mm. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: Was .44 Magnum ever issued by big police forces? 357 was, IIRC. That’s probably a good chunk of the reason why. As to blast, lack of capacity, and over penetration…all of those complaints apply to .357 Sig vs 9mm, you’re pushing a pistol cartridge load that slings a 68 gr copper projectile at 2200 FPS. You’re definitely getting increased recoil, blast, and massive over penetration vs 9mm AND losing capacity. My main complaint about .357 Sig is cost and it’s tough(er) to reload than 9mm. Not to my knowledge, however, there were plenty of people who carried a .44 Magnum due to the Dirty Harry movies, and there is a fair amount of shooting data as a result. Remember, the reason that the 125 grain JHP were so popular in the 357 magnum was because the old 158 grain loads (the original bullet design weight of the cartridge) wouldn't expand sufficiently / over penetrate in perps due to the bullet tech of the time. Now magnify that for a 44 magnum! Those are all complaint of 357 sig as well? Not really, not to me. Also there is a HUGE difference in 1 to 2 rounds less and 9 rounds less. About the 68 grain defender round, surprisingly that is one of the rounds that has the least risk of over penetration because it destabilizes and expands its energy so fast. Now, the extreme penetrate definitely over penetrates, but not the defender. There are so good gel test videos on youtube about it (including the one I posted in my OP)! Does $23 for 50 rounds of premium jhp seem that expensive to you? I'll give you the reloading point, but it is doable if you really love the cartridge. Originally Posted By DayandNight1701: Everything I've read/watched states it's nowhere near a .357 Did you watch the video in my OP? Here, let me repost it for you. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNBjow4OQHM Those rounds are matching, or exceeding, the factory 357 magnum loads available today! |
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Posted: 3/22/2024 7:57:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lilMAC25]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Not to my knowledge, however, there were plenty of people who carried a .44 Magnum due to the Dirty Harry movies, and there is a fair amount of shooting data as a result. Remember, the reason that the 125 grain JHP were so popular in the 357 magnum was because the old 158 grain loads (the original bullet design weight of the cartridge) wouldn't expand sufficiently / over penetrate in perps due to the bullet tech of the time. Now magnify that for a 44 magnum! Those are all complaint of 357 sig as well? Not really, not to me. Also there is a HUGE difference in 1 to 2 rounds less and 9 rounds less. About the 68 grain defender round, surprisingly that is one of the rounds that has the least risk of over penetration because it destabilizes and expands its energy so fast. Now, the extreme penetrate definitely over penetrates, but not the defender. There are so good gel test videos on youtube about it (including the one I posted in my OP)! Does $23 for 50 rounds of premium jhp seem that expensive to you? I'll give you the reloading point, but it is doable if you really love the cartridge. Did you watch the video in my OP? Here, let me repost it for you. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNBjow4OQHM Those rounds are matching, or exceeding, the factory 357 magnum loads available today! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Was .44 Magnum ever issued by big police forces? 357 was, IIRC. That’s probably a good chunk of the reason why. As to blast, lack of capacity, and over penetration…all of those complaints apply to .357 Sig vs 9mm, you’re pushing a pistol cartridge load that slings a 68 gr copper projectile at 2200 FPS. You’re definitely getting increased recoil, blast, and massive over penetration vs 9mm AND losing capacity. My main complaint about .357 Sig is cost and it’s tough(er) to reload than 9mm. Not to my knowledge, however, there were plenty of people who carried a .44 Magnum due to the Dirty Harry movies, and there is a fair amount of shooting data as a result. Remember, the reason that the 125 grain JHP were so popular in the 357 magnum was because the old 158 grain loads (the original bullet design weight of the cartridge) wouldn't expand sufficiently / over penetrate in perps due to the bullet tech of the time. Now magnify that for a 44 magnum! Those are all complaint of 357 sig as well? Not really, not to me. Also there is a HUGE difference in 1 to 2 rounds less and 9 rounds less. About the 68 grain defender round, surprisingly that is one of the rounds that has the least risk of over penetration because it destabilizes and expands its energy so fast. Now, the extreme penetrate definitely over penetrates, but not the defender. There are so good gel test videos on youtube about it (including the one I posted in my OP)! Does $23 for 50 rounds of premium jhp seem that expensive to you? I'll give you the reloading point, but it is doable if you really love the cartridge. Originally Posted By DayandNight1701: Everything I've read/watched states it's nowhere near a .357 Did you watch the video in my OP? Here, let me repost it for you. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNBjow4OQHM Those rounds are matching, or exceeding, the factory 357 magnum loads available today! 9 rounds less? Again, you can convert FNX45T (probably FN545 as well) and Glocks. You MIGHT lose 2-3 rounds vs something with the same mag capacity as a .40. Maybe. Are we pretending that other calibers don’t go on sale as well?  Attached File Attached FileI’d need some real world studies (or maybe just more than a single gel test) to show a copper 68 gr projectile going 2200 FPS doesn’t overpenetrate. |
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Posted: 3/22/2024 8:12:19 PM EDT
[#22]
"Overpenetration" is only a concern for police departments.
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Posted: 3/22/2024 8:28:52 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: 9 rounds less? Again, you can convert FNX45T (probably FN545 as well) and Glocks. You MIGHT lose 2-3 rounds vs something with the same mag capacity as a .40. Maybe. Are we pretending that other calibers don’t go on sale as well? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4420_png-3166480.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4419_png-3166481.JPG I’d need some real world studies (or maybe just more than a single gel test) to show a copper 68 gr projectile going 2200 FPS doesn’t overpenetrate. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Was .44 Magnum ever issued by big police forces? 357 was, IIRC. That’s probably a good chunk of the reason why. As to blast, lack of capacity, and over penetration…all of those complaints apply to .357 Sig vs 9mm, you’re pushing a pistol cartridge load that slings a 68 gr copper projectile at 2200 FPS. You’re definitely getting increased recoil, blast, and massive over penetration vs 9mm AND losing capacity. My main complaint about .357 Sig is cost and it’s tough(er) to reload than 9mm. Not to my knowledge, however, there were plenty of people who carried a .44 Magnum due to the Dirty Harry movies, and there is a fair amount of shooting data as a result. Remember, the reason that the 125 grain JHP were so popular in the 357 magnum was because the old 158 grain loads (the original bullet design weight of the cartridge) wouldn't expand sufficiently / over penetrate in perps due to the bullet tech of the time. Now magnify that for a 44 magnum! Those are all complaint of 357 sig as well? Not really, not to me. Also there is a HUGE difference in 1 to 2 rounds less and 9 rounds less. About the 68 grain defender round, surprisingly that is one of the rounds that has the least risk of over penetration because it destabilizes and expands its energy so fast. Now, the extreme penetrate definitely over penetrates, but not the defender. There are so good gel test videos on youtube about it (including the one I posted in my OP)! Does $23 for 50 rounds of premium jhp seem that expensive to you? I'll give you the reloading point, but it is doable if you really love the cartridge. Originally Posted By DayandNight1701: Everything I've read/watched states it's nowhere near a .357 Did you watch the video in my OP? Here, let me repost it for you. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNBjow4OQHM Those rounds are matching, or exceeding, the factory 357 magnum loads available today! 9 rounds less? Again, you can convert FNX45T (probably FN545 as well) and Glocks. You MIGHT lose 2-3 rounds vs something with the same mag capacity as a .40. Maybe. Are we pretending that other calibers don’t go on sale as well? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4420_png-3166480.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4419_png-3166481.JPG I’d need some real world studies (or maybe just more than a single gel test) to show a copper 68 gr projectile going 2200 FPS doesn’t overpenetrate. I’d be more interested in seeing how that bullet performs in the rest of the barriers. I know that HST, Gold Dot, and Critical Duty in factory loadings will perform well in those areas. I also would be curious in how it recoils, functions, and hits poa as compared to a 125gr loading used to train with. |
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Posted: 3/22/2024 9:59:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: I’d be more interested in seeing how that bullet performs in the rest of the barriers. I know that HST, Gold Dot, and Critical Duty in factory loadings will perform well in those areas. I also would be curious in how it recoils, functions, and hits poa as compared to a 125gr loading used to train with. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Was .44 Magnum ever issued by big police forces? 357 was, IIRC. That’s probably a good chunk of the reason why. As to blast, lack of capacity, and over penetration…all of those complaints apply to .357 Sig vs 9mm, you’re pushing a pistol cartridge load that slings a 68 gr copper projectile at 2200 FPS. You’re definitely getting increased recoil, blast, and massive over penetration vs 9mm AND losing capacity. My main complaint about .357 Sig is cost and it’s tough(er) to reload than 9mm. Not to my knowledge, however, there were plenty of people who carried a .44 Magnum due to the Dirty Harry movies, and there is a fair amount of shooting data as a result. Remember, the reason that the 125 grain JHP were so popular in the 357 magnum was because the old 158 grain loads (the original bullet design weight of the cartridge) wouldn't expand sufficiently / over penetrate in perps due to the bullet tech of the time. Now magnify that for a 44 magnum! Those are all complaint of 357 sig as well? Not really, not to me. Also there is a HUGE difference in 1 to 2 rounds less and 9 rounds less. About the 68 grain defender round, surprisingly that is one of the rounds that has the least risk of over penetration because it destabilizes and expands its energy so fast. Now, the extreme penetrate definitely over penetrates, but not the defender. There are so good gel test videos on youtube about it (including the one I posted in my OP)! Does $23 for 50 rounds of premium jhp seem that expensive to you? I'll give you the reloading point, but it is doable if you really love the cartridge. Originally Posted By DayandNight1701: Everything I've read/watched states it's nowhere near a .357 Did you watch the video in my OP? Here, let me repost it for you. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNBjow4OQHM Those rounds are matching, or exceeding, the factory 357 magnum loads available today! 9 rounds less? Again, you can convert FNX45T (probably FN545 as well) and Glocks. You MIGHT lose 2-3 rounds vs something with the same mag capacity as a .40. Maybe. Are we pretending that other calibers don’t go on sale as well? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4420_png-3166480.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4419_png-3166481.JPG I’d need some real world studies (or maybe just more than a single gel test) to show a copper 68 gr projectile going 2200 FPS doesn’t overpenetrate. I’d be more interested in seeing how that bullet performs in the rest of the barriers. I know that HST, Gold Dot, and Critical Duty in factory loadings will perform well in those areas. I also would be curious in how it recoils, functions, and hits poa as compared to a 125gr loading used to train with. Amen |
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SOM
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Posted: 3/24/2024 9:00:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: 9 rounds less? Again, you can convert FNX45T (probably FN545 as well) and Glocks. You MIGHT lose 2-3 rounds vs something with the same mag capacity as a .40. Maybe. Are we pretending that other calibers don’t go on sale as well? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4420_png-3166480.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4419_png-3166481.JPG I’d need some real world studies (or maybe just more than a single gel test) to show a copper 68 gr projectile going 2200 FPS doesn’t overpenetrate. Correct, up to 9 rounds less. If you have a 6 shot revolver (someone referenced a 44 magnum) then that is 9 rounds less. Larger caliber rounds have larger cases which take up more space with more weight Simple physics. And the ammo you referenced is more expensive in price than the ammo I linked... |
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Posted: 3/24/2024 9:39:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lilMAC25]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Correct, up to 9 rounds less. If you have a 6 shot revolver (someone referenced a 44 magnum) then that is 9 rounds less. Larger caliber rounds have larger cases which take up more space with more weight Simple physics. And the ammo you referenced is more expensive in price than the ammo I linked... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: 9 rounds less? Again, you can convert FNX45T (probably FN545 as well) and Glocks. You MIGHT lose 2-3 rounds vs something with the same mag capacity as a .40. Maybe. Are we pretending that other calibers don’t go on sale as well? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4420_png-3166480.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4419_png-3166481.JPG I’d need some real world studies (or maybe just more than a single gel test) to show a copper 68 gr projectile going 2200 FPS doesn’t overpenetrate. Correct, up to 9 rounds less. If you have a 6 shot revolver (someone referenced a 44 magnum) then that is 9 rounds less. Larger caliber rounds have larger cases which take up more space with more weight Simple physics. And the ammo you referenced is more expensive in price than the ammo I linked...  Attached FileI can’t tell if you’re drunk or trolling at this point. This is NOT a revolver.  Attached FileHere is Ranger T 9mm available to be ordered today… https://bhammo.com/winchester-ranger-9mm-p-115-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-ammunition/?sku=RA9115HP%20%20-%20500&avad=74383_e386cfaa5 vs a backorder from OpticsPlanet  . Attached FileWhere can you find .357 Sig ammo for $0.16/rd? https://southerndefense.com/magtech-9mm-luger-115-grain-full-metal-jacket-fmj-zinc-plated-steel-case/?sku=754908328116-500&utm_source=ammobuy&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_campaign=9mm+Luger-500 But it’s NOT BRASS, lilMAC25… $0.17/rd https://southerndefense.com/bps-9mm-124gr-fmj-ammo/?sku=8683052344012-500&utm_source=ammobuy&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_campaign=9mm+Luger-500 But it’s not HP, lilMAC25… $0.43/rd https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090655809?pid=975064 By all means, enjoy your .357 Sig. It’s a bad ass round. Unfortunately, it suffers from all the drawbacks (vs 9mm) that the other rounds which you’ve poo-poo-ed does. |
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Posted: 3/24/2024 10:19:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NachoDip]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/th-463.jpg I can’t tell if you’re drunk or trolling at this point. This is NOT a revolver. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4438_jpeg-3168568.JPG Here is Ranger T 9mm available to be ordered today… https://bhammo.com/winchester-ranger-9mm-p-115-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-ammunition/?sku=RA9115HP%20%20-%20500&avad=74383_e386cfaa5 vs a backorder from OpticsPlanet .https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4437_png-3168542.JPG Where can you find .357 Sig ammo for $0.16/rd? https://southerndefense.com/magtech-9mm-luger-115-grain-full-metal-jacket-fmj-zinc-plated-steel-case/?sku=754908328116-500&utm_source=ammobuy&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_campaign=9mm+Luger-500 But it’s NOT BRASS, lilMAC25… $0.17/rd https://southerndefense.com/bps-9mm-124gr-fmj-ammo/?sku=8683052344012-500&utm_source=ammobuy&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_campaign=9mm+Luger-500 But it’s not HP, lilMAC25… $0.43/rd https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090655809?pid=975064 By all means, enjoy your .357 Sig. It’s a bad ass round. Unfortunately, it suffers from all the drawbacks (vs 9mm) that the other rounds which you’ve poo-poo-ed does. Ammo prices aren’t something everyone is concerned with. Want me to compare to the price of 22LR? It will justify you varying that for self defense. |
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Posted: 3/24/2024 10:29:56 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads, which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: In standard 9mm or are we allowing +p? Speer Gold Dot 125 gr Speer factory gold dot is 1350 124 gr 9mm +p is 1220 Penetration numbers on the two loadings are Heavy clothing 18.30 and 14.13 Hornady Critical Duty 135gr 9mm +p 1162 15” Sig 1221 13.4” ETA: the Critical Duty however gives better penetration in 357 Sig in every other barrier then the 9mm+P if that’s a goal and the trade offs are worth it to the person You have to take the box velocity numbers with a grain of salt. Also there are two 357 Sig gold dot loadings, one has a listed box velocity of 1,375 fps. Both those 357 Sig Gold dot numbers are out of a 4" barrel btw, where as the box 9mm velocities are out of a 5" barrel. In youtube tests and comparisons (which there are plenty of) the 357 Sig gets about 200-300fps more than a comparable 9mm load with the same length barrel. That IS a significant difference. Tons of Youtube test videos showing that even the +P 9mm is no where close to 357 sig. Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. Weird philosophy. Now let's see if you're ideologically consistent. How do you feel about polymer frame 10mm guns? Originally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Don't run .357 Sig, but I've always had a lot of respect for .357 magnum. It's been a while, but last I looked, .357 Magnum performance difference as a defense round was pretty profoundly more effective than the 9/40/45 rounds. Fitting that into a semi-auto with a comfortable grip always seemed like an intereting idea. ANd I believe .357 sig was designed to give .357 mag performance, yes? So I've personally viewed its usage and application sort of similar to what .357 magnum was, where it was a high-recoil gun with limited ammo that would stop an assailant RFN, with just one shot. Which to me is a different handgun philosophy than a high-cap combat gun. Where accurate delivey of that first shot was higher priority than rapid follow-up. And so high capacity high-speed seems less of a factor than a gun that was controllable and each shot was intended to the be the final shot. Putting it into a common polymer .40 cal high-cap spray and pray gun never felt like the right pairing to me, and that's what most offereings were - were .40 cal compromise round that people realized they didn't like, that were 9mm guns stretched to fit .40 cal; and then converted to .357 sig - vs a ground-up philosophy of how do we do a proper .357 magnum design approach into a semi-auto. To me, that round makes more sense in more of a single-stack target style configuration gun. Just my own thought - probably just me. Something like a P210 in .357 Sig, would be quite the pairing (do they do that?) In any event, for my needs, I'm satisifed with 9mm; but I can't actually talk shit about .357 Sig - it's a bigger round, that gives bigger performance. If I really wanted a power-dog to end a gun-fight one shot at a time, a single-stack (for better fit and control) .357 sig would probably be an excellent choice. If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. Over penetration and wasted energy (not to mention SIGNIFIGANTLY increased recoil, blast, reduced capacity, and increased weight). You forget that the 357 magnum had the best one shot stop records (and street reputation) by far. Way above what 44 magnum had in shootings. The 357 sig was designed to replicate the famous performance of the 357 magnum in an auto pistol. Originally Posted By Gunnie357: If you want 357 Sig in a single stack that question was answered in 1929. I’m running 147s at 1225, 124gr at 1375, and 115gr at 1475 could probably add some juice to the 115s and can go more on the 124s but no need. ETA: Ive ran 124s as high as 1425 in a colt barrel That's cute. Now add 200 FPS to those boutique +p+ 9mm loads, which are unable to be bought from any ammo manufacturer, even underwood, and you'll have 357 Sig. Is it that hard for you to realize that larger case capacity = increased performance? I find most 10mm to either be dated 1911 frame, or fat unwieldy polymer double stack. Again, something like a P210 in 10mm is more my interest. A modern single stack polymer for that slimmer more comfortable frame would be intersting. With 10mm, you need 5" barrel to realize the benefit. Just my own tastes - obviously i don't represent the market. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 9:12:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lilMAC25]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NachoDip: Ammo prices aren’t something everyone is concerned with. Want me to compare to the price of 22LR? It will justify you varying that for self defense. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NachoDip: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/th-463.jpg I can’t tell if you’re drunk or trolling at this point. This is NOT a revolver. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4438_jpeg-3168568.JPG Here is Ranger T 9mm available to be ordered today… https://bhammo.com/winchester-ranger-9mm-p-115-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-ammunition/?sku=RA9115HP%20%20-%20500&avad=74383_e386cfaa5 vs a backorder from OpticsPlanet .https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4437_png-3168542.JPG Where can you find .357 Sig ammo for $0.16/rd? https://southerndefense.com/magtech-9mm-luger-115-grain-full-metal-jacket-fmj-zinc-plated-steel-case/?sku=754908328116-500&utm_source=ammobuy&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_campaign=9mm+Luger-500 But it’s NOT BRASS, lilMAC25… $0.17/rd https://southerndefense.com/bps-9mm-124gr-fmj-ammo/?sku=8683052344012-500&utm_source=ammobuy&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_campaign=9mm+Luger-500 But it’s not HP, lilMAC25… $0.43/rd https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090655809?pid=975064 By all means, enjoy your .357 Sig. It’s a bad ass round. Unfortunately, it suffers from all the drawbacks (vs 9mm) that the other rounds which you’ve poo-poo-ed does. Ammo prices aren’t something everyone is concerned with. Want me to compare to the price of 22LR? It will justify you varying that for self defense. I don’t follow. I’d prefer .22 over a sharp stick for SD, but not over virtually any modern centerfire handgun caliber chambering. Price has never been my sole justification for saying there are better choices than .357 Sig. |
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Posted: 3/25/2024 10:01:05 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: I don’t follow. I’d prefer .22 over a sharp stick for SD, but not over virtually any modern centerfire handgun caliber chambering. Price has never been my sole justification for saying there are better choices than .357 Sig. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lilMAC25: Originally Posted By NachoDip: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/th-463.jpg I can’t tell if you’re drunk or trolling at this point. This is NOT a revolver. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4438_jpeg-3168568.JPG Here is Ranger T 9mm available to be ordered today… https://bhammo.com/winchester-ranger-9mm-p-115-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-ammunition/?sku=RA9115HP%20%20-%20500&avad=74383_e386cfaa5 vs a backorder from OpticsPlanet .https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/71141/IMG_4437_png-3168542.JPG Where can you find .357 Sig ammo for $0.16/rd? https://southerndefense.com/magtech-9mm-luger-115-grain-full-metal-jacket-fmj-zinc-plated-steel-case/?sku=754908328116-500&utm_source=ammobuy&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_campaign=9mm+Luger-500 But it’s NOT BRASS, lilMAC25… $0.17/rd https://southerndefense.com/bps-9mm-124gr-fmj-ammo/?sku=8683052344012-500&utm_source=ammobuy&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_campaign=9mm+Luger-500 But it’s not HP, lilMAC25… $0.43/rd https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090655809?pid=975064 By all means, enjoy your .357 Sig. It’s a bad ass round. Unfortunately, it suffers from all the drawbacks (vs 9mm) that the other rounds which you’ve poo-poo-ed does. Ammo prices aren’t something everyone is concerned with. Want me to compare to the price of 22LR? It will justify you varying that for self defense. I don’t follow. I’d prefer .22 over a sharp stick for SD, but not over virtually any modern centerfire handgun caliber chambering. Price has never been my sole justification for saying there are better choices than .357 Sig. I put my MIL in a Ruger SR-22 b/c she could cock the hammer before racking the slide & she complained about the recoil of .380. She's in her 80's now. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 1:03:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bowhntr6pt]
[#31]
Finishing up almost 700 rounds at the loading bench... for the cost of a USPS Med Flat-Rate box a guy gave me almost 700 125gr FP's, 100 Gold Dots, about 300 125gr bullets that are .357 vs. .355 (I'll load those in .38SPC), and a few hundred pieces of brass, half pf which is new Starline.
Today a friend gave me just over 150 rounds including a box of Winchester FMJ and two 50-round bags of Georgia Arms ammo... see below. Anyone have any experience with the GA made ammo? ETA- this brings my 357 Sig ammo stash to close to 10K. 
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Posted: 3/28/2024 2:48:17 PM EDT
[#32]
Reloading bottlenecks scares me.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 3:06:10 PM EDT
[#33]
"My main complaint about .357 Sig is cost and it’s tough(er) to reload than 9mm."
The 357 Sig is very easy to reload. Bullet selection can be a problem. One guy uses a push through Redding G-RX die to size the body of the case, then uses the sizer die to tackle the neck/shoulder. I have Dillon Carbide dies. Use a powder that fills the case to help avoid set back. Accurate #9 is a good choice. VV N105 was too, till it was discontinued. You want bullet with bearing surface. Speer makes plinking bullet for the 357 Sig and special Gold Dot. Montana Gold makes a bullet . I use a light taper crimp. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:47:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: Finishing up almost 700 rounds at the loading bench... for the cost of a USPS Med Flat-Rate box a guy gave me almost 700 125gr FP's, 100 Gold Dots, about 300 125gr bullets that are .357 vs. .355 (I'll load those in .38SPC), and a few hundred pieces of brass, half pf which is new Starline. Today a friend gave me just over 150 rounds including a box of Winchester FMJ and two 50-round bags of Georgia Arms ammo... see below. Anyone have any experience with the GA made ammo? ETA- this brings my 357 Sig ammo stash to close to 10K. https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q70/924/Xwxnq8.jpg GA ammo in 357 Sig. No experience. 460 Rowland from GA, Yes. Fired a couple thousand rounds of 460R and it's always been consistent and top notch. I will get more of it from them when available. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2024 10:08:15 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WILSON: Reloading bottlenecks scares me. It shouldn't be scary. It is only slightly more complicated than straight wall cases. I size .357 SIG cases in one operation, using tincture of green soap as lube. Washes right off with hot water. Bullet selection is more limited, you do have to be more picky. Nothing a reloader can't handle however. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 3/30/2024 1:33:26 PM EDT
[#36]
Originally Posted By Bradd_D: I got a couple of Glock 32's when they first came out. I bought into the energy hype, but soon figured out that there wasn't really any gain in terminal performance. Just an increase in blast and flash. Just about any agency that adopted it has moved away from it. Law enforcement agencies typically prioritize price of ammo and ease of shoot-ability for a large variety of shooters over terminal ballistics. I know a couple of guys in a training unit at a relatively large LE Agency. After numerous tests they determined the .40 S&W would be the choice duty round. It simply performed better when shooting through vehicle windshields, doors, clothing and other barriers. Overall it has superior performance across the board. They ultimately decided the 9mm would be the choice round for the agency for a few reasons however. 1. Its cheaper. They are saving over 100K per year buying training ammo. 2. Its easier for smaller framed/weaker shooters to shoot. 3. You get 2 extra rounds. Which may be useful in a high stress situation when people are just dumping as many rounds onto a target as fast as possible. I've never ran the tests myself but I've shot a lot of steel plates. You can't convince me a 9mm hits with the same amount of energy as a .40 S&W. I've seen too many center mass hits with a 9mm fail to down the steel when a .40 or .45 in the same place knocks it down. You can argue what kind of effect this has on a living target. But more energy on target is more energy on target. Anyone who's done a lot of hunting knows that light/fast bullets can be lethal with ideal hits. But something with a bit more mass/weight leaves less margin for error. I've never shot a .357 Sig but I would be interested in trying it. Mainly on steel and maybe on some wild pigs. For general carry purposes I carry a 9mm. When I'm in the woods or mountains where I might run into a lion or bear I carry a .40. The guys in that training unit that ran those tests ^ carry a .40 when they are in the 'outdoors' as well. 9mm for general conceal carry in a slimline carry gun. |
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Posted: 4/6/2024 12:30:38 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grendelbane: It shouldn't be scary. It is only slightly more complicated than straight wall cases. I size .357 SIG cases in one operation, using tincture of green soap as lube. Washes right off with hot water. Bullet selection is more limited, you do have to be more picky. Nothing a reloader can't handle however. I tried once and failed, admittedly I didn't try very hard, more of a trial run. I don't really remember anymore what the issue was, but I think the die was compressing the neck a little and I couldn't get the bullet to seat tightly. I've heard you can resize using a carbide 40s&w die first, then you don't need to use case lube. One of these days I'll re-attack after reading up on it more. |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 4/6/2024 8:35:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ICEAGE: Law enforcement agencies typically prioritize price of ammo and ease of shoot-ability for a large variety of shooters over terminal ballistics. I know a couple of guys in a training unit at a relatively large LE Agency. After numerous tests they determined the .40 S&W would be the choice duty round. It simply performed better when shooting through vehicle windshields, doors, clothing and other barriers. Overall it has superior performance across the board. They ultimately decided the 9mm would be the choice round for the agency for a few reasons however. 1. Its cheaper. They are saving over 100K per year buying training ammo. 2. Its easier for smaller framed/weaker shooters to shoot. 3. You get 2 extra rounds. Which may be useful in a high stress situation when people are just dumping as many rounds onto a target as fast as possible. I've never ran the tests myself but I've shot a lot of steel plates. You can't convince me a 9mm hits with the same amount of energy as a .40 S&W. I've seen too many center mass hits with a 9mm fail to down the steel when a .40 or .45 in the same place knocks it down. You can argue what kind of effect this has on a living target. But more energy on target is more energy on target. Anyone who's done a lot of hunting knows that light/fast bullets can be lethal with ideal hits. But something with a bit more mass/weight leaves less margin for error. I've never shot a .357 Sig but I would be interested in trying it. Mainly on steel and maybe on some wild pigs. For general carry purposes I carry a 9mm. When I'm in the woods or mountains where I might run into a lion or bear I carry a .40. The guys in that training unit that ran those tests ^ carry a .40 when they are in the 'outdoors' as well. 9mm for general conceal carry in a slimline carry gun. .40 is a superior round. But, you will never convince the masses of that. They just do what is popular. They don’t think for themselves, they just say “XYZ says it is better.” Most of them probably took the vaccine because doctors told them to. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:08:49 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HawkinsID: .40 is a superior round. But, you will never convince the masses of that. They just do what is popular. They don’t think for themselves, they just say “XYZ says it is better.” Most of them probably took the vaccine because doctors told them to. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HawkinsID: Originally Posted By ICEAGE: Law enforcement agencies typically prioritize price of ammo and ease of shoot-ability for a large variety of shooters over terminal ballistics. I know a couple of guys in a training unit at a relatively large LE Agency. After numerous tests they determined the .40 S&W would be the choice duty round. It simply performed better when shooting through vehicle windshields, doors, clothing and other barriers. Overall it has superior performance across the board. They ultimately decided the 9mm would be the choice round for the agency for a few reasons however. 1. Its cheaper. They are saving over 100K per year buying training ammo. 2. Its easier for smaller framed/weaker shooters to shoot. 3. You get 2 extra rounds. Which may be useful in a high stress situation when people are just dumping as many rounds onto a target as fast as possible. I've never ran the tests myself but I've shot a lot of steel plates. You can't convince me a 9mm hits with the same amount of energy as a .40 S&W. I've seen too many center mass hits with a 9mm fail to down the steel when a .40 or .45 in the same place knocks it down. You can argue what kind of effect this has on a living target. But more energy on target is more energy on target. Anyone who's done a lot of hunting knows that light/fast bullets can be lethal with ideal hits. But something with a bit more mass/weight leaves less margin for error. I've never shot a .357 Sig but I would be interested in trying it. Mainly on steel and maybe on some wild pigs. For general carry purposes I carry a 9mm. When I'm in the woods or mountains where I might run into a lion or bear I carry a .40. The guys in that training unit that ran those tests ^ carry a .40 when they are in the 'outdoors' as well. 9mm for general conceal carry in a slimline carry gun. .40 is a superior round. But, you will never convince the masses of that. They just do what is popular. They don’t think for themselves, they just say “XYZ says it is better.” Most of them probably took the vaccine because doctors told them to. Retired instead of taking the "vaccine." All firearm cartridges - and individual loads - are compromises. .40 S&W is a certain set of compromises - 9x19mm is a certain set of compromises. .40 S&W is only a superior round if you value the compromises .40 S&W has more than the compromises 9x19mm has. Better terminal ballistics performance? Check. More felt recoil? Check. Slower recovery time resulting in slower split times? Check. More expensive? Check. Less magazine capacity in a given volume? Check. Fewer firearm platforms chambered in it? Check. Carried a Gen 2 23 for several years, finally got a Gen 5 26. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 8:50:01 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HawkinsID: .40 is a superior round. But, you will never convince the masses of that. They just do what is popular. They don't think for themselves, they just say "XYZ says it is better." Most of them probably took the vaccine because doctors told them to. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 11:19:56 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ToyCop: 40 is not superior in barrier penetration in my experience. Especially not when it comes to double pane plexiglass windows like on trains. 40 deflects more through the various barriers we tried. It wasn't a scientific, lab controlled test, but they were conducted side by side, at the same time with 357 Sig. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ToyCop: Originally Posted By HawkinsID: .40 is a superior round. But, you will never convince the masses of that. They just do what is popular. They don't think for themselves, they just say "XYZ says it is better." Most of them probably took the vaccine because doctors told them to. 40 is not superior in barrier penetration in my experience. Especially not when it comes to double pane plexiglass windows like on trains. 40 deflects more through the various barriers we tried. It wasn't a scientific, lab controlled test, but they were conducted side by side, at the same time with 357 Sig. Who is shooting trains? |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2024 11:23:35 AM EDT
[#42]
Thats quite a piece
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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:00:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Who is shooting trains? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: Originally Posted By ToyCop: Originally Posted By HawkinsID: .40 is a superior round. But, you will never convince the masses of that. They just do what is popular. They don't think for themselves, they just say "XYZ says it is better." Most of them probably took the vaccine because doctors told them to. 40 is not superior in barrier penetration in my experience. Especially not when it comes to double pane plexiglass windows like on trains. 40 deflects more through the various barriers we tried. It wasn't a scientific, lab controlled test, but they were conducted side by side, at the same time with 357 Sig. Who is shooting trains? |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:03:23 PM EDT
[#44]
I am reluctant to admit it but .40 really is an ass kicker.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:32:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NonTypical361: Yes. Get both…😁 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NonTypical361: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Dang, am I going to have to get a 357SIG bbl for my P226 or P229?!  Yes. Get both…😁 I just received my 357SIG bbl and installed it. It was a simple drop-in. Now I need to get some training and SD ammo.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2024 1:00:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: Had both preferred the 229 personally Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Originally Posted By Blain: That's the one thing I don't like about his gel test videos, he gives measurements but not bullet weights. What was your retained weight? From the looks of it, your results match the others I've seen with Underwood's loading. The bullet frags and sheds petals, much like the old Remington 357 Magnum SJHP which had a factory loading of 1,450 fps from a 4" barrel revolver. Which is why I like this round so much, almost perfectly duplicates the performance of those legendary 96% one shot stop records in an auto pistol. It is NOT a load I would choose if expecting to shoot through barriers, but I imagine it would penetrate anyway through brute force alone. Much like how the Remington 357 Magnum sjhp rounds would most likely muscle through most barriers due to sheer brute force alone. In this video where he compares it with a 357 magnum, he shoots it through a wood barrier, and it actually penetrates more than the bare gel shot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J3qOk_u3GMDang, am I going to have to get a 357SIG bbl for my P226 or P229?! Had both preferred the 229 personally I put the 357SIG bbl in my 229.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2024 1:02:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: My favorite are the hogue G10 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Originally Posted By Gunnie357: Originally Posted By raygixxer89: Originally Posted By Blain: That's the one thing I don't like about his gel test videos, he gives measurements but not bullet weights. What was your retained weight? From the looks of it, your results match the others I've seen with Underwood's loading. The bullet frags and sheds petals, much like the old Remington 357 Magnum SJHP which had a factory loading of 1,450 fps from a 4" barrel revolver. Which is why I like this round so much, almost perfectly duplicates the performance of those legendary 96% one shot stop records in an auto pistol. It is NOT a load I would choose if expecting to shoot through barriers, but I imagine it would penetrate anyway through brute force alone. Much like how the Remington 357 Magnum sjhp rounds would most likely muscle through most barriers due to sheer brute force alone. In this video where he compares it with a 357 magnum, he shoots it through a wood barrier, and it actually penetrates more than the bare gel shot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J3qOk_u3GMDang, am I going to have to get a 357SIG bbl for my P226 or P229?! Had both preferred the 229 personally I'm kind of swinging this way, too. The 226 has the E2 grip and it feels fantastic. The 229 is the DAK. I was pissed because I ordered the da/sa but SG sent this instead. It's in cherry condition so I decided to keep it. I ordered E2 grips for it on Monday should be here Friday. My favorite are the hogue G10 I think I'm going to get the Hogue wood for my new P239. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 1:22:41 PM EDT
[#48]
I can handload 357 SIG for the same cost as I handload 9mm.
I just wish the store-bought-ammo guys would leave more once-fired brass on the ground for me to scrounge. I wish I could carry my whole gun collection with me on my 1:00 a.m. runs to 7-11. I’m a conversion barrel guy. Gives me options. Not sure it matters a whole lot which one in the 7-11 parking lot. But that won’t stop me buying more guns. They’re almost giving away those 30SC guns. I haven’t been able to scrounge much 30SC brass. Might hold off on adding one of those until I accumulate a milk jug full of brass. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 1:26:08 PM EDT
[#49]
My conversion gun of choice.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2024 1:27:45 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NachoDip: I did. That’s why I have a 460. 1000ftlbs of energy per squeeze. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/77421/6592A18F-A3A8-4F34-A08E-EBA1D0D7594D_jpe-1977985.JPG See the wear on the end of the comp? That’s holster wear. This gets carried regularly. I’m not a limp waisted candyass and love shooting it. It goes greatly with my 460SW and my Vaquero 45+p revolvers. One of my other carry guns is a G22C with a 31C barrel in it. Because 31C is awesome. 17+1 in a factory mag and 22 round backup mags. I need to find a dealer with a registered conversion kit to try on it for giggles. The V porting would be fun on auto. As others have posted energy per cartridge. When you get into the boutique full power stuff. 357 sig shines. Full power is 650 ft lbs. spicy hot +p+ 9 is 500. Another interesting one to look at is how much energy is there per magazine. It’s a weird way to consider it but it can also be a useful comparison. 17+1 in my 357 sig is 11700. G17/19X (19+1) is 10,000. My 460R (10+1) is 11,000. Sort of a moot point when an 16" AR is 36,000 ft lbs out of a 30rd mag. 48,000 out of a 40rd pmag. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NachoDip: Originally Posted By lilMAC25: If you really want to end a fight with single shot “power-dog”, why not look at .460 Rowland? .44 Mag ballistics from a .45 sized firearm. Drop in the barrel on an FNX45 (currently being blown out by LockedandLoaded, you have to email them for price) and you have 18+1 (once you mod the baseplate on the FN545 mags) rounds of a cartridge that is ballistically equivalent to a .44 Mag. I did. That’s why I have a 460. 1000ftlbs of energy per squeeze. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/77421/6592A18F-A3A8-4F34-A08E-EBA1D0D7594D_jpe-1977985.JPG See the wear on the end of the comp? That’s holster wear. This gets carried regularly. I’m not a limp waisted candyass and love shooting it. It goes greatly with my 460SW and my Vaquero 45+p revolvers. One of my other carry guns is a G22C with a 31C barrel in it. Because 31C is awesome. 17+1 in a factory mag and 22 round backup mags. I need to find a dealer with a registered conversion kit to try on it for giggles. The V porting would be fun on auto. As others have posted energy per cartridge. When you get into the boutique full power stuff. 357 sig shines. Full power is 650 ft lbs. spicy hot +p+ 9 is 500. Another interesting one to look at is how much energy is there per magazine. It’s a weird way to consider it but it can also be a useful comparison. 17+1 in my 357 sig is 11700. G17/19X (19+1) is 10,000. My 460R (10+1) is 11,000. Sort of a moot point when an 16" AR is 36,000 ft lbs out of a 30rd mag. 48,000 out of a 40rd pmag. What are some good boutique loads for 357SIG? I'm interested in getting some. Thanks. |
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