Nice set up.  What’s old is new again.

Thanks.

Modern gear makes a suspender setup more viable than when they were commonplace.

Daughter wants a alice belt for her canteen that she got for her birthday.

Can someone tell me about the different belt types/designs and which one is best to get?

Think I have seen 3 different buckle types.
And know of 2 different harness types.

Generally speaking, 3-point (Y) harness inferior to older "H" type.

Best Pistol belt buckle is large black plastic buckle; (latest version).

Pistol belt can be "abrasive", so suggest you make a "belt pad" out of some GI sleeping mat closed-cell foam, and lace the pad to the belt by poking holes in the pad and running some 550 cord either around the belt or better through the eyelets in the belt.

10-4 did see something about a GI pad that buttons to the belt.

Those any count?

Maybe better/cheaper to custom make your own pad instead of going "one size fits all" store-bought pad.  GI closed-call foam sleeping pads are pretty cheap, and have multiple uses.

This is the current iteration of my go-to set of LBE.  A mix of ALICE, M1956, M1967, two Belgian systems (one M1956 and another Pattern 37 based), Canadian Pattern 82, Rhodesian Pattern 69, and modern stuff.  As much as I want a more modern setup paying several hundred dollars seems a bit ridiculous.  I replaced the Pattern 82 pouches specific to FAL mags with later ones that were made to work with both the C1 and C7, so I can use this rig with 7.62mm or 5.56mm mags.  I am very enamored with this pouch design and with a more modern, less proprietary attachment system and some webbing on the sides plus another color this would be the ideal mag pouch for me.

Do-it-all rig with alice parts, eagle belt pad, tactical tailor buttpack and radio pouch, spanish suspenders and G36 ammo pouch as medical pouch
Upgraded over time, It did more than a few trainings and field trips.

Any tips for making my LBE work with the large ALICE ruck (I actually have a TT MALICE pack)?  I used to keep the belt low so it sat below the hip belt but I really hated it when I wasn't using the pack.  I like where I have it sit now (except that it now makes the Camelbak a little too short to attach on the back, but it's still usable) but it gets in the way of the hip belt somewhat.  I can pull it up and just clear the belt at the rear (clearing up front is no issue) but it definitely is suboptimal.  If I add armor to the mix it would be even less optimal.

I'm not sure you can.  The "belt" on an alice pack is called a kidney pad. It was never meant to ride the hips.

Call me crazy, but, I think your best bet is to drill out the rivets and remove the center crossbars.  If you're not jumping it, or throwing it out of tall truck beds, I don't see why it wouldn't work.  As an alternative, consider Down East 1606 polymer frame.  In any case, consider alternative harness system, such as surplus molle, FILBE, or even Down East.

To get ruck to play nice with belt kit, get surplus Brit PLCE kit.  Their pouches all ride flush with belt top, so ruck will sit on top much better than US system with canteen caps in the way.  

If you remove center crossbars from ALICE frame, BA will now sit in hollow.  Not so much on DEI frame, but maybe molle Medium, if you can find one.  

At a bare minimum, find molle sustainment pouches that fit canteens and will sit flush with belt around back.  

"Hip belt" of ALICE was never designed to fit around waist; it was designed to sit above your belt kit. I would "jump rig" or duct tape the straps back behind it.  If done properly, ruck will sit on shelf provided by belt kit; with a good sternum strap, you don't even need it.

Remove the crossbars? Fascinating. Never heard about that one. Why?

And what's a BA?

I put together a Down East 1606 frame, MOLLE belt and shoulder straps, medium ALICE pack (the woodland radio pack), and a MOLLE sleep system carrier for my daughter.  Only puzzle to figure out was a slight modification to the MOLLE load lifter straps, since they were made to attach to the MOLLE frame.  Worked great for her and was easy to adjust everything to fit her (she's around 5'2"), so I tried making one for myself.

I'm 6' with a long torso.  With the adjustments at the limit for torso length, I was wishing I had just a little more adjustment.  I should probably look for a deal on a FILBE belt and see if that fits me better with the 1606 frame.

Some newer pack frames are made in a perimeter style, where you have the vertical sections on either side, some sort of section across the bottom, and maybe (or maybe not) a section across the top, with no other frame pieces inside the rectangle that this forms.  I don't recall ever trying one, but my understanding is that their advantages are a lighter frame and allowing the load in the pack to fit closer to your back, instead of pushing that load farther aft and having a bigger impact on your balance.

ETA1:  If I did try using one, I'd probably end up adding some sort of thin frame sheet inside the pack, to keep stuff inside the pack from creating pressure points on my back.  I did that with a medium ALICE pack (no frame, just the shoulder straps) that my daughter used as a book bag in high school.  Turned the ALICE pack inside out, then sewed in a piece of cloth to form an internal pocket that was open at the bottom of the pack, instead of open at the top.  Cut a closed cell sleeping pad to fit in that pocket with a few inches sticking out, shoved it into the pocket, then turned the pack back right side out, with the excess few inches of the pad bending to fit against the bottom of the pack.  She said it made a huge difference when the pack was full of textbooks and notebooks.

ETA2: Thinking about it a bit more, if you also removed the section across the bottom of the ALICE frame and still found a way to attach the bottom end of the shoulder strap (I need to refresh my memory on how everything attaches to the bottom of the ALICE frame), you'd have a frame very similar to the frame used by at least one of the manufacturers of ultralight backpacks.  This may be what Diz intended - making a lightweight frame that allows attaching the shoulder straps to a large ALICE pack, but leaves the belt off.

ETA3: (is there a record for how many ETAs were made to a post?)  I haven't tried this out, but I think it will work.  Take an ALICE frame (preferably one that you got a bargain price on, because the cross pieces were bent/damaged) and drill out all the rivets except the ones holding the two keepers where the shoulder straps attach at the top of the frame.  You now have a piece of tubing in an upside down "U" perimeter frame that will attach normally at the top to the medium or large ALICE pack and allow attaching the upper ends of the shoulder straps to the frame, but the lower ends of the shoulder straps and the attachment straps on the bottom of the pack can slide up the frame tubes after they are looped around those tubes (definitely NOT optimal).  Take about 7 inches or so of webbing and fold it flat in an S style, so that you can stitch the edges of one fold together, but only stitch the edges near the end of the other fold - think of it like making a open-top mag pouch out of a folded length of 2" or 3" webbing, with a pocket and a loop to attach it to your belt, but instead of putting a mag in the pocket, you will be putting the bottom of the frame tube in the pouch, and instead of a belt through the loop, you will be looping the lower end of the shoulder strap and the attachment strap on the bottom of the pack around the frame tube while also passing them through the loop on the pouch you just made.  Make another one for the other side and put it all together.  You now have a way to use a large ALICE pack in the same way you would use a medium ALICE pack with just the shoulder straps - no belt to interfere with the ALICE belt and suspenders.

I think I have spent too much time in front of the CAD computer at work, this week.

Open perimeter pack frames like the Down East 1609?

Yeah what he said.  The whole idea is to get a hollow center which does a few things.  First of all, it allows for BA (body armor) if that's a consideration.  Most of the mil-spec frames have crossbars which cause the rear plate to center-point  and slide around on your back.  By removing these crossbars, you now have a nice pocket for it.  Even if this is not a consideration, getting rid of them lets the frame flex somewhat under load instead of just bouncing up and down and trying to beat you to death.  Most guys poo-poo this idea because all the bro vets complain about how the frame bends when they abuse it.  But those guys would tear up a steel ball so I ignore that.

Yeah the whole idea is to get some kind of lumbar pad, and not worry so much about the "waist belt".  Because the frame is so short, it ain't never gonna reach your waistline, so it just becomes some sort of belly band.  And tightening that down is pretty counter-productive.  What might make more sense, is to tailor your belt kit, so the pouches don't interfere with the frame.  In fact, if you flush mount them they create a nice shelf for the ruck itself to sit on.  In affect, it becomes the waist belt.  

So for sure, lots of ways to pull that off.   The main things are to get a decent shoulder pad set up, along with a good lumbar pad.  Then look at frame improvements.  Then build your belt kit to integrate with it.

Will that frame work with a medium ALICE, or is it better to just get the MOLLE2 frame and mod it to fit?

The DEI 1609 "Open Perimeter" frame is specifically intended for use with the "MOLLE Medium pack", which has side-attachment points for the vertical members, and horizontal attachment points for the waist belt.  IIRC, the MOLLE Medium pack uses unique shoulder straps and waist belt.  IDK if common MOLLE II shoulder straps and/or waistbelt can be retrofitted to 1609 frame.

The 1603 MOLLE II DEI frame is intended for use with the Large MOLLE II pack.  While it may be possible to "graft" a Large or Medium ALICE pack onto the 1603 frame, the 1606-AC and 1606-MC frames are designed to allow easy attachment of LG and Med ALICE packs.  The 1603 and 1606 (-AC and -MC) pack frames will all require both a set of shoulder straps and a load bearing waistbelt, usually common MOLLE II items.

DEI also sells two versions of a "combination" ensemble of DEI 1606-AC frame, shoulder straps and waistbelt.  IMHO, the "ensemble" price is quite reasonable compared to the cost of buying well-made items separately.

See HERE  for descriptions of all items mentioned above.  IDK if DEI sells the shoulder straps and/or waistbelt separately, perhaps an e-mail to them would clarify things.

Disclaimer: no financial interest.

TY

Shorten the frame. Drill the 8 bottom rivets, remove lower part, cut, redrill, reattach the bottom via nuts and bolts or rivets.
Recon soldiers would cut down lightweight rucksack frames in Vietnam (from the top) for the same reason.


I Heard someone Say that a properly sized Alice frame for hiking has to be shortened two inches for a 6 feet Person. Never tried It.


However, packs with "Alice type" frames sized for armor are sized longer.

YW

In any event, strongly suggest using a cheap ALICE frame for experimentation before modding a Tactical Tailor ALICE frame.  IIRC, the TT frame is welded in places where the GI frame is pop-riveted, so modding a TT ALICE frame might not be so easy.  

IDK whether I'd use aluminum (AL) pop rivets or steel; AL pop rivets not susceptible to usual corrosion, nor susceptible to galvanic corrosion as happens with dis-similar metals being in contact (Steel/Aluminum).  IIRC, almost all of the GI ALICE frame where it is pop-riveted, is aluminum.  AL rivets presumably being a little "weaker" than steel rivets, all things considered, I'd probably use the widest diameter AL rivets possible (re-drilling rivet-mounting points to suit) and use AL backing washers wherever possible.

Just some suggestions.

Thanks for the info gentlemen. I'm gonna let that simmer and stare at my pack frame.

Of note, when I was a LRS man, I took a CFP 90 "belt" and added it to my large alice and wore this belt above the LBV belt. Our rucks weighed absurd amounts so comfort was not possible regardless of mods so we just didn't think about comfort and sucked it up. Now, comfort is a goal.

CFP-90 waistbelt is far smaller in area than modern MOLLE II load-bearing waistbelt, and it is far less comfortable with an equal load.   "Comfort" is directly related to load-carrying capacity, given a load-bearing waistbelt.  Good use of available items back when, but far better alternatives now available.

If I was "forced" to take my CFP-90 out of storage and also "forced" to use it, I think I'd take a look at much improved modern load-bearing waist belts.

FWIW, I long ago fixed the shoulder strap problem with an aluminum "Ducks Foot" item.



 

Some years back (maybe a decade or more?), some online source was running (what sounded like) a dang good deal on used ALICE frames, and I ordered a couple.  My guess is that at some point before shipping them out, they tossed them on a concrete floor and had a fat guy walk back and forth on them.  On one, the tube is only slightly bent, but the metal strap running up the center and the metal strap running across the frame about halfway up, are pretty mangled.  The section of the frame running across the bottom is banged up but seems useable as is.  If my memory isn't off, the tube on the other frame didn't appear to have any damage other than some scuffs, but the two metal straps were also somewhat mangled, and the section across the bottom was banged up but not as badly as the one on the frame with the slightly bent tube.

I took the one with the unbent tube to work, then over a few lunch breaks I drilled the rivets out of the bent parts, got them back to their original shape, then riveted them back on.  As I recall, I used some leftover CherryMax CR3243-4-(whatever length the grip gauge said was appropriate for that hole) rivets that I had in a drawer of my toolbox.  After inspecting various planes that had been based in the Carribean for years prior to me seeing them, the main corrosion issue with CherryMax rivets is if you leave the heads unpainted, with the steel stem in the center of the rivet (the rest of the rivet is aluminum alloy) rusting at the point where it breaks off when you pull the rivet with a pop rivet gun (or a CherryMax gun, if you feel like spending that kind of money on tools).  A few minutes with a small brush and decent quality OD paint is all that is needed to do a fair job of corrosion proofing those rivets after using them to put an ALICE frame back together.

If work slows down a bit, I might take the other frame to work and tinker with modifying it.  At some point I'll need to start digging through storage totes to see if I still have some ALICE shoulder straps, though.

@JPN

I'm 5'10" with an 18.5" torso. The 1606 frame, MOLLE 2 shoulder straps, and FILBE waist belt are a perfect fit. Actually, they fit better than my Gregory internal frame.

Mount the Camelbak bladder in a Specops Gear H.U.M.P. inside the ALICE Ruck Frame?

Unfortunately you can't just drop into your local five and dime and leave with a H.U.M.P., anymore. They've been discontinued a good while, now.

Subscribed to read & learn more later!

Yes, one can externally seal the hole in the rivet where the mandrel breaks with either paint or some black silicone goop.  Sometimes both head and stem of rivet are accessible, and both ends can be sealed.  Some pop rivets are aluminum with a steel mandrel, some are all-aluminum.  Since I would want to "up" the diameter of rivets used when modding an ALICE frame, I'd select the widest diameter rivet suitable for that application and go from there.  AL backing washers wherever possible.

IDK if all diameters of pop rivets suitable for such an ALICE frame project are available in AL rivet/AL mandrel form.   If not, then use wide diameter AL rivets with STL mandrels, and seal as suggested above.

The "Radio Pouch" which can be fitted to the inside ventral side of many military packs will allow the user to install a CamelBak "lumbar bladder".

See example of C/B Lumbar reservoir HERE


DO shop around for a "military" Lumbar bladder.

Guys frequently use it with ALICE packs.  I also
Have a short lived Down East patrol pack that utilizes the 1609 frame, it was based on their Agilis system.

Look up ALICE pack on 1609 frame on YouTube.  Plenty of videos.

Some interesting and creative ALICE Pack Frame Mods , as well as some DEI plastic frame Mods HERE

tagged

Slowly I've acquired my parts for "modifying" my Spec Ops Brand "Recon Ruck Ultra"  to essentially be a medium sized MALICE pack.  

Problems with the Spec Ops pack:

1.  No webbing above the three outside pouches.  Even though the ALICE medium (and large) have webbing above the three outside pouches for whatever reason Spec Ops did not provide PALS webbing above the three outside pouches. I'll be adding two rows of 1"nylon PALS webbing to that area.

2.  Off-brand buckles. No idea what brand of buckles these buckles are on the Spec Ops, but I'm replacing them with ITW buckles that I trust.

3.  Unlike the ALICE pack there is No webbing at the bottom of the pack to lash and secure the bottom of the pack to the ALICE or MALICE frame.  I'll be adding this with ITW hardware to secure the bottom of the pack to my MALICE frame.

4.  Unlike the ALICE there is No webbing on the very bottom of the pack to lash or secure anything to it. I will be adding that webbing to it.

5.  Unlke the ALICE there isn't a small lid compartment and the interior of the lid is not water proofed.  I'm trying to decide whether I want to add some coating to the inner lid (similar to the fix people do on old ALICE packs).  I may not do that though.

6.  Unlike the ALICE there aren't any grommets on the bottom of the main sack of the pack.   They have grommets on the three outer pouches, but for whatever reason didn't add any to the main compartment.   I'm kind of reluctant to have any added, because I don't want to mess with the integrity of the main compartment and I don't fully trust the shop I'm dealing with to do it right.

I'm honestly suprised at the amount of money and work that has to go into the Spec Ops Recon Ultra Ruck to get it even to what I would consider being on par with a medium ALICE pack.  If I wasn't so married to having to use Multicam, I'd just modify my existing medium Woodland ALICE to be like a medium MALICE pack, because it would be far easier to do.  Kind of idiotic that Spec Ops went to all the trouble to make a modern medium ALICE pack and then cut so many corners that I can't imagine would have added that much labor and cost to the packs, but definitely would have made them a much more attractive option for people.  If Tactical Tailor ever comes out with a medium MALICE pack I think it would be a home run.

Thanks for the tip.  It has been so long so I was shown how to use and wear it.  I am doing an APC hike this weekend and decided to use a lighter set of LBE I have which use an M1956 belt and suspenders and mounted higher the ruck works much better with it.  The butt back can't be filled completely as the top couple of inches sit under the belt, but otherwise it works fairly well.  I can also see the value of using items with wire hangers in this context.

This is the gear I was provided when I was taught how to use this stuff years ago.  I wish I had retained more over the years.  APC will be a good refresher, I'm sure.  My pack at the time was the one on the ground behind me.

This is what I wore when I was taught these things many years ago.

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I wore the older canvas webbing for a long time.  Cammied it with liquid shoe dye.  I thought the newer nylon stuff was shinier and noisier.  But it finally won out.  Just spray paint cammied it.  Both were rigged with paracord, with metal hardware removed.  Liked the older "H" harness better than the replacement "Y" harness.  

Always jump-rigged my ALICE; never used the belly strap.  

Had riggers sew a claymore pouch on top lid.  Ran 1 qt canteens on each side with pack opening bands from belly wart to secure them.

Can someone tell me what I have here?

This was given to me by my wife’s aunt.

Appears the support system is broken. Inside is filled with white powdered looking mildew.

Just wondering what it is and if there is anything worth salvaging off of it.

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I have two of those I got issued. Ones been around on deployments and such but the other is brand new. Good packs and there is a smaller pack that attaches to them as well

CFP-90 pack, with a broken plastic track for the height-adjustable shoulder straps.  Black plastic "ducksfoot" which is still attached to the shoulder straps is also likely broken.  Look for videos on You Tube on how to repair the shoulder strap suspension system, using search term "CFP-90 repair".  It can be done by using a "Speedy Stitcher" awl, the right thread, some additional webbing for backup strips, and some time and effort.

It was a decent pack for its time, but there are better packs now, including the USGI MOLLE II and FILBE.  OTOH, repairing it will cost little $, and is fairly straightforward.  Good practice for other things.

Remove mildew by spraying inside with 10% water/bleach solution, and then hosing off the pack and exposing the innards to the sun.

Useful background info HERE

Add a piece of PVC pipe across the inside top of the frame pocket to attach the shoulder straps:

Thank you for the info. I’ll look into fixing it. I don’t really have a use for it just hated to see it get thrown away so my mother in law rescued it from her sister.

You're welcome.  If fixed properly, the CFP-90 can be a pretty decent pack.  Fixing it properly will likely cost a lot less than buying another pack, and teach you some useful skills in the meantime.  All best wishes!

So, I looked at my Medium Woodland LC2 ALICE Pack under Night Vision (Gen 3 Elbit XLSH White Phos tube) and it definitely does seem a bit shinner and to give more reflection to IR light than my 1000D Spec Ops Recon Ultra Ruck.  

It's not "glow in the dark" bright or anything, but it definitely seems a bit more reflective.   Whereas the 1000D material of the other pack is just really dull under night vision.

When everything around me isn't pure mud I'll be getting out into the woods at night and taking a better look at it through night vision to form more of a conclusive opinion on it.  I don't think it's a major difference that would warrant any concern about giving your position away or anything, but it was interesting the difference between the two materials.

Ancient gear, that is to say before introduction of NIR vision items and requirements for gear/uniform NIR, may display various NIR signatures.

Assume nothing unless tested.

They got deleted but figured I'd repost since they won't be getting used much in storage

Got this Spanish webbing for a whopping 10$ to add to the reference collection. One May Say that Is Better made than Alice, but It was fielded 25 years later, when US was fielding Molle. Pouches have the spring clip like the M9 holster.