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Posted: 1/18/2014 9:31:43 AM EDT
[#1]
Some of the most affordable ceramics I've seen are by MaxPro. They are NIJ certified and they make back and front cuts of the plates. From an affordability stand point I think these are the guys to go with. IMHO.
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Posted: 1/18/2014 1:25:20 PM EDT
[#2]
[ETA] Oh, never mind.
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Posted: 1/18/2014 2:26:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some of the most affordable ceramics I've seen are by MaxPro. They are NIJ certified and they make back and front cuts of the plates. From an affordability stand point I think these are the guys to go with. IMHO. the midwest guardians are a little lighter and can be had for 125 per plate with coupon code. for a carrier the mayflower apc, the pig, or the banshee are the top 3 choices going. fuck steel, you made the right choice. IMO the only slight advantage steel has is you can bang them around and drop them etc,...but the ceramic plates out now are pretty stout...as long as you are not an ass and throwing them around and dropping them on the strike face, they are going to be fine. |
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Posted: 1/19/2014 4:07:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Would a fall or hard impact from tripping on rocks potentially break the plates?
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Posted: 1/19/2014 10:39:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would a fall or hard impact from tripping on rocks potentially break the plates? If you fall off a house or something, yeah. Ceramics are carried daily by Soldiers and Marines overseas. They get dropped, thrown, and generally tossed around and abused, and hold up remarkably well. |
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Posted: 1/20/2014 5:30:01 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
So I am sure this has been discussed to death but I haven't been able to find the answers I am looking for. I have decided on Level IV Ceramic Plates over Steel due to the weight and spalling with steel plates. If anyone has some feedback that is pro steel please let me know. Steel seems to take a much higher amount of hits but the stress tests I have seen show even with the coating they still spall. Steel is extremely heavy, unless you are on a tight budget i wouldnt even consider it, plus most people that buy steel end up upgrading to ceramic after wearing their gear a few times. Steel is multi hit rated but then again most ceramic is rated for a several hits as well, i dont know about you but i dont plan on taking 20+ rounds to the chest and if i do chances are ive probably already taken 50 rounds to the arms, legs and head and im probably already dead. Weight comparison 10x12 AR500 Steel (lvl 3) - 7.5 lbs 10x12 SAPI (lvl 3) - 4.5 lbs 10x12 ESAPI (lvl 4) - 5.5 lbs 6x8 Side ESAPI (lvl 4)- 2.3 lbs You can can wear, front, back and side ESAPIs for roughly the same weight as just front and back AR500, thats more coverage area and increases protection from FMJ ball ammo to AP ammo. As far as Level IV Ceramic Plates who is the best and why? I use USGI ESAPI plates, they are Injunction with (ICW) meaning they need level 3A soft armor backers (i use BALCS) but they are light weight, durable, worn by all solider from the National guard to special forces. Also they are fairly cheap compared to new production civilian ceramic plates. Who makes the best Carrier that those plates will fit in? Tons of options for carriers, some people like plate carriers as they are light weight others like armor carriers as they provide more coverage. optactical is where i tend to shop. http://www.optactical.com/mollevestsrigs.html Appreciate any feedback |
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Posted: 1/20/2014 1:44:29 PM EDT
[#7]
While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern.
Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. |
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Posted: 1/20/2014 1:53:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. I don't own armor yet, but this line of thinking makes a lot of sense to me.
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Posted: 1/20/2014 3:21:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So I am sure this has been discussed to death but I haven't been able to find the answers I am looking for. I have decided on Level IV Ceramic Plates over Steel due to the weight and spalling with steel plates. If anyone has some feedback that is pro steel please let me know. Steel seems to take a much higher amount of hits but the stress tests I have seen show even with the coating they still spall. Steel is extremely heavy, unless you are on a tight budget i wouldnt even consider it, plus most people that buy steel end up upgrading to ceramic after wearing their gear a few times. Steel is multi hit rated but then again most ceramic is rated for a several hits as well, i dont know about you but i dont plan on taking 20+ rounds to the chest and if i do chances are ive probably already taken 50 rounds to the arms, legs and head and im probably already dead. Weight comparison 10x12 AR500 Steel (lvl 3) - 7.5 lbs 10x12 SAPI (lvl 3) - 4.5 lbs 10x12 ESAPI (lvl 4) - 5.5 lbs 6x8 Side ESAPI (lvl 4)- 2.3 lbs You can can wear, front, back and side ESAPIs for roughly the same weight as just front and back AR500, thats more coverage area and increases protection from FMJ ball ammo to AP ammo. As far as Level IV Ceramic Plates who is the best and why? I use USGI ESAPI plates, they are Injunction with (ICW) meaning they need level 3A soft armor backers (i use BALCS) but they are light weight, durable, worn by all solider from the National guard to special forces. Also they are fairly cheap compared to new production civilian ceramic plates. Who makes the best Carrier that those plates will fit in? Tons of options for carriers, some people like plate carriers as they are light weight others like armor carriers as they provide more coverage. optactical is where i tend to shop. http://www.optactical.com/mollevestsrigs.html Appreciate any feedback 10x12 AR500 plates weight closer to 9lbs each when coated, maybe a little less when they are raw steel. |
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Posted: 1/20/2014 6:33:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't own armor yet, but this line of thinking makes a lot of sense to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. I don't own armor yet, but this line of thinking makes a lot of sense to me. Making alot of sense to me reading that comment now. So this has been my "keeping me on the fence" on which to go with mentality. Ceramic seems to be the best choice for mobility, weight, and long stents of wearing it and avoiding fatigue and of course not catching frag in my neck. But if I need to grab my sh*t and go situation arises, I don't plan on it but the likelihood of being in several combat engagements throughout a WTSHTF timeline is pretty high until things settle down. At least for me in my current location and situation. As you stated, there is not going to be a place to just drop my old beat up gear and get new stuff. So given the intended use of the gear but without a resupply of plates or carriers would it be better to go with the heavy bulky spall in my face steel plates??? I would like to say I wouldn't ever need to use either but if it does happen and its a decade before your local shop opens again, how many rounds would I potentially take over a decade? And, Since Ceramic would not last abuse coupled with multi hits that long steel seems to be the necessary evil. But then again I prob wouldn't survive that long anyways lol. |
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Posted: 1/20/2014 7:02:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Buy once cry once. Your concern is that "if you could never get a new set in a hostile enviroment for an undetermined period of time." You would have to choose steel for the long run. Like others said, if you are not in the military most likely you don't have access to new plates and I'm just not convinced that ceramic plates will hold up as well as steel.
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Posted: 1/20/2014 7:13:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Making alot of sense to me reading that comment now. So this has been my "keeping me on the fence" on which to go with mentality. Ceramic seems to be the best choice for mobility, weight, and long stents of wearing it and avoiding fatigue and of course not catching frag in my neck. But if I need to grab my sh*t and go situation arises, I don't plan on it but the likelihood of being in several combat engagements throughout a WTSHTF timeline is pretty high until things settle down. At least for me in my current location and situation. As you stated, there is not going to be a place to just drop my old beat up gear and get new stuff. So given the intended use of the gear but without a resupply of plates or carriers would it be better to go with the heavy bulky spall in my face steel plates??? I would like to say I wouldn't ever need to use either but if it does happen and its a decade before your local shop opens again, how many rounds would I potentially take over a decade? And, Since Ceramic would not last abuse coupled with multi hits that long steel seems to be the necessary evil. But then again I prob wouldn't survive that long anyways lol. I have a set of the DSG Arms Lvl3 plates now, but since some of the coated plates have come up, I've been seriously looking into the ones from thetargetman.com. Seem to stop what I think is most prevalent (LVL3 including XM-193) and coated for $190/set with side plates available. Not affiliated and don't get a spif on this...just my personal opinion. Here's a video of them in action that those guys posted: http://youtu.be/yq3o806iMmw
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Posted: 1/20/2014 7:14:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Buy once cry once. Your concern is that "if you could never get a new set in a hostile enviroment for an undetermined period of time." You would have to choose steel for the long run. Like others said, if you are not in the military most likely you don't have access to new plates and I'm just not convinced that ceramic plates will hold up as well as steel.  Choices, choices...maybe I should get both lol. Anyone know of Steel Plates that don't Spall. Seen alot of videos showing that coating not doing alot in the ways of preventing it.
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Posted: 1/20/2014 7:38:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Choices, choices...maybe I should get both lol. Anyone know of Steel Plates that don't Spall. Seen alot of videos showing that coating not doing alot in the ways of preventing it.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Buy once cry once. Your concern is that "if you could never get a new set in a hostile enviroment for an undetermined period of time." You would have to choose steel for the long run. Like others said, if you are not in the military most likely you don't have access to new plates and I'm just not convinced that ceramic plates will hold up as well as steel. Choices, choices...maybe I should get both lol. Anyone know of Steel Plates that don't Spall. Seen alot of videos showing that coating not doing alot in the ways of preventing it.Maybe you should get both. But I would put the ceramics in the back and the steel in the front. I have AR500 plates with the line-x coating. Your plate carrier and the gear you hang in front of it will help protect you from spalling and the line-x coating does a decent job if it doesn't catch all of it. Forget about side plates and work out. My setup is pretty heavy with just the carrier and front and back steel plates alone, no accessories. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 4:32:11 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. Well if he is truely worried about a SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, Zombies, etc... then yes steel would be the way to go as it is really the only plate that is pretty much rated for unlimited amounts of hits. But in my mind thats a pipe dream. Lets be honest, what are the chances you will go out and get shot 20 different times, thats just not statistically going to happen, you might get lucky the first few times but eventually one of those rounds is going to hit you in the arm, or the leg, or the head. If you get in that many shoot outs you are doing something wrong and you are going to die no matter what plates you wear. Dont forget most steel plates are Lvl 3 protection, so m855 and other steel core ammo will go through them, some companies make theirs strong enough to stop m855 but it is not a requirement to get approved by NIJ for level 3 protection. Also, the whole cracked plates needing xrayed thing is way blow out of proportion, a ceramic plate can have small fractures and still stop a round. People hear the word "ceramic" and think of a delicate china plate that would shatter if dropped from even a inch high, rifle plates made of Boron Carbide As long as the plate doesnt bend youre fine, besides if you xrayed your steel plates you would probably find some flaws and defects in those too yet they do just fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron_carbidehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron_carbide Boron Carbide is one of the hardest materials known to man, the only thing better would be to wear a solid diamond in the shape of a rifle plate! Also, since im ranting, i just love it when people buy those super light weight and expensive plate carriers that weigh like 1lb and then they put steel rifle plates in it *face palm* |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 6:24:28 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't own armor yet, but this line of thinking makes a lot of sense to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. I don't own armor yet, but this line of thinking makes a lot of sense to me. That makes sense to you? Okay... 
If you're not using it except for training, then you don't need to X-Ray it, unless you train all the time. In which case the weight saving would be vastly superior. Someone hits you in the chest with a hammer? Yeah, go ahead and X-Ray that bad boy. If you're running an organization and you issue plates out to multiple people who use them all the time, yeah, X-Ray once per year, if you feel like being anal about it. Otherwise, don't worry about it. The idea of getting hit in the plate on more than one occasion and that being a rationale behind a decision is laughable, at best. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 6:41:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That makes sense to you? Okay... If you're not using it except for training, then you don't need to X-Ray it, unless you train all the time. In which case the weight saving would be vastly superior. Someone hits you in the chest with a hammer? Yeah, go ahead and X-Ray that bad boy. If you're running an organization and you issue plates out to multiple people who use them all the time, yeah, X-Ray once per year, if you feel like being anal about it. Otherwise, don't worry about it. The idea of getting hit in the plate on more than one occasion and that being a rationale behind a decision is laughable, at best. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. I don't own armor yet, but this line of thinking makes a lot of sense to me. That makes sense to you? Okay... If you're not using it except for training, then you don't need to X-Ray it, unless you train all the time. In which case the weight saving would be vastly superior. Someone hits you in the chest with a hammer? Yeah, go ahead and X-Ray that bad boy. If you're running an organization and you issue plates out to multiple people who use them all the time, yeah, X-Ray once per year, if you feel like being anal about it. Otherwise, don't worry about it. The idea of getting hit in the plate on more than one occasion and that being a rationale behind a decision is laughable, at best. You're a very smart man. We all have much to learn from you. One last question. You stated that the idea that getting hit in a plate more than once is "laughable at best". What is it at worst? I pray at worst it's simply hilarious and nothing more serious than that. Please tell me I'm at least right about that. Congratulations: Out of a possible The only thing "laughable" here is your pretentious, douchebag attitude. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 6:58:49 AM EDT
[#18]
[ETA] I shouldn't have commented. It's pointless and I knew better.
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Posted: 1/21/2014 7:10:52 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People who can rationalize steel as a valid choice for armor should definitely buy steel. Layer, you've repeatedly made snarky comments about steel plates in the past, with a smug attitude about it. Others have said you're a subject matter expert on the issue. Not to discredit you, since I've never seen you say anything expert about it but don't know what you do or do not know, how about instead of acting like a bitch, you educate the rest of us? For what it's worth, I'm getting ceramic Level 4 stand alones. ETA: Nice edit 
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Posted: 1/21/2014 7:26:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. When is this ever realistic, outside of the military?  If you are expecting to be shot more than once and you are not in the .mil or some SWAT entry team, worrying about what plates to put in your carrier are not your primary concern.
I bought a PC primarily for safety in training. If the S were to HTF, sure it would be great to have armor. But if I'm in situation where I am having regular gunfights I have already fucked up beyond belief. I have a family with kids and if my AO is putting me in the line of fire on a regular basis, I am in a Mad Max fantasy scenario or my family is probably dead and I'm ready to eat my own bullet. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 8:07:37 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When is this ever realistic, outside of the military? If you are expecting to be shot more than once and you are not in the .mil or some SWAT entry team, worrying about what plates to put in your carrier are not your primary concern.
I bought a PC primarily for safety in training. If the S were to HTF, sure it would be great to have armor. But if I'm in situation where I am having regular gunfights I have already fucked up beyond belief. I have a family with kids and if my AO is putting me in the line of fire on a regular basis, I am in a Mad Max fantasy scenario or my family is probably dead and I'm ready to eat my own bullet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. When is this ever realistic, outside of the military? If you are expecting to be shot more than once and you are not in the .mil or some SWAT entry team, worrying about what plates to put in your carrier are not your primary concern.
I bought a PC primarily for safety in training. If the S were to HTF, sure it would be great to have armor. But if I'm in situation where I am having regular gunfights I have already fucked up beyond belief. I have a family with kids and if my AO is putting me in the line of fire on a regular basis, I am in a Mad Max fantasy scenario or my family is probably dead and I'm ready to eat my own bullet. SHTF scenario where you can't just pop online and order some more plates and don't have a logistics train following you. I agree it is unlikely, but most of what is prepared for is unlikely. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 8:56:03 AM EDT
[#22]
AR500 will not stop 193. I don't care how durable it is if it wont stop one of the most common rounds here.
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Posted: 1/21/2014 9:34:11 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SHTF scenario where you can't just pop online and order some more plates and don't have a logistics train following you. I agree it is unlikely, but most of what is prepared for is unlikely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. When is this ever realistic, outside of the military? If you are expecting to be shot more than once and you are not in the .mil or some SWAT entry team, worrying about what plates to put in your carrier are not your primary concern.
I bought a PC primarily for safety in training. If the S were to HTF, sure it would be great to have armor. But if I'm in situation where I am having regular gunfights I have already fucked up beyond belief. I have a family with kids and if my AO is putting me in the line of fire on a regular basis, I am in a Mad Max fantasy scenario or my family is probably dead and I'm ready to eat my own bullet. SHTF scenario where you can't just pop online and order some more plates and don't have a logistics train following you. I agree it is unlikely, but most of what is prepared for is unlikely. Can you describe a STHF scenario where you need to survive multiple gunfights, and yet what plate is in your carrier is your top priority? |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 9:52:38 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you describe a STHF scenario where you need to survive multiple gunfights, and yet what plate is in your carrier is your top priority? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While it all comes down to personal preference, I also thought it comes to intended usage. I'm not LE, and don't plan to have to wear my PC unless the S has HTF (except for training days). To me, longevity was more important than weight. With ceramic plates, the only way to really verify they are GTG is to x-ray them...I looked into doing this (in our pre-SHTF times) and I couldn't find a local entity. Post SHTF, I'm certain there won't be a way to know if I landed on them going prone too hard and my mag carrier broke the plate. With steel, that's not a concern. Spartikis mentioned he probably wouldn't be alive if he took 20 rounds due to other injuries...but that assumes 20 rounds in one engagement. What about a round or two in each of several engagements? The videos I have seen show the ceramic plates breaking apart and having cracks that now will let rounds through, where the steels just get dented. I'm not in the .MIL where someone is going to hand me a new plate if this one breaks or is assumed to be broken, or after taking a few rounds, so I'd rather deal with one that I can visually inspect myself. Spalling is a concern, and some of the newer plates are coated to control spall. Not to mention (at least on my rig), it's going to be behind some other stuff that will likely help control spalling as well. In the end, there are pros and cons to each. You'll have to decide what you intend to use it for and what works best with your plan. When is this ever realistic, outside of the military? If you are expecting to be shot more than once and you are not in the .mil or some SWAT entry team, worrying about what plates to put in your carrier are not your primary concern.I bought a PC primarily for safety in training. If the S were to HTF, sure it would be great to have armor. But if I'm in situation where I am having regular gunfights I have already fucked up beyond belief. I have a family with kids and if my AO is putting me in the line of fire on a regular basis, I am in a Mad Max fantasy scenario or my family is probably dead and I'm ready to eat my own bullet. SHTF scenario where you can't just pop online and order some more plates and don't have a logistics train following you. I agree it is unlikely, but most of what is prepared for is unlikely. Can you describe a STHF scenario where you need to survive multiple gunfights, and yet what plate is in your carrier is your top priority? Not how many gun fights....but how many bullet strikes to the same plate. Two very different things. I think the whole point is that nobody can describe any SHTF scenario beyond mere speculation. Circumstances, location, cause, AO specific dynamics are all highly variable. The basics of the point are a single use, yet functionally superior solution, or, a heavier, less desirable multi-use solution. Some here, obviously don't envision their plates ever needing to stop more than a single round. Either that, or they have back-up plates. Others speculate that it might be useful to opt for plates capable of taking more than a single bullet strike. Seems to me the ideal arrangement would be to have ceramic plates, for the likelihood of only needing that plate once...and maybe having a back-up set, steel or ceramic in case one is proven wrong. Accounting for being potentially wrong regarding a SHTF event would appear to be a wise use of humility....to me anyway. I'd rather have a solution in place that can help mitigate planning errors. Not sure why that's such an apparently stupid idea to some here. Seems we've got some fortune tellers who are solidly convinced they have fully accounted for events that have yet to occur. Maybe they effectively have, and I'm simply not experienced enough with this subject to understand, however many are too busy being cryptically "clever" or out and out douchebags to communicate their points lucidly. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 12:43:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you describe a STHF scenario where you need to survive multiple gunfights, and yet what plate is in your carrier is your top priority? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SHTF scenario where you can't just pop online and order some more plates and don't have a logistics train following you. I agree it is unlikely, but most of what is prepared for is unlikely. Can you describe a STHF scenario where you need to survive multiple gunfights, and yet what plate is in your carrier is your top priority? Multiple survivors banding together. Might be that Joe took 2 to the chest and then bled out from a femoral wound, but that now Susy can use the plates for herself. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 6:46:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AR500 will not stop 193. I don't care how durable it is if it wont stop one of the most common rounds here. ^ This. I have both. Steel is adequate for training purposes to otherwise act in lieu of go-to-war ceramic plates, but simply does not provide the minimal protection against one of the most common armor defeats. In my area, the crazy SHTF scenario people are supposedly worried about is going to have a serious proliferation of .243, 22-250 and other magnums, plus a metric shit-ton of M193. Steel armor is something the bad guys can laugh at as their assorted quarter-inch holes magically appear. Add in the spall concerns and why does this conversation continue? |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 7:19:33 PM EDT
[#27]
If I could never get a new set, I'm going steel.
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Posted: 1/21/2014 7:25:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Multiple survivors banding together. Might be that Joe took 2 to the chest and then bled out from a femoral wound, but that now Susy can use the plates for herself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
SHTF scenario where you can't just pop online and order some more plates and don't have a logistics train following you. I agree it is unlikely, but most of what is prepared for is unlikely. Can you describe a STHF scenario where you need to survive multiple gunfights, and yet what plate is in your carrier is your top priority? Multiple survivors banding together. Might be that Joe took 2 to the chest and then bled out from a femoral wound, but that now Susy can use the plates for herself. Dude, if we get to that point you can have my damn plates. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 7:36:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^ This. I have both. Steel is adequate for training purposes to otherwise act in lieu of go-to-war ceramic plates, but simply does not provide the minimal protection against one of the most common armor defeats. In my area, the crazy SHTF scenario people are supposedly worried about is going to have a serious proliferation of .243, 22-250 and other magnums, plus a metric shit-ton of M193. Steel armor is something the bad guys can laugh at as their assorted quarter-inch holes magically appear. Add in the spall concerns and why does this conversation continue? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
AR500 will not stop 193. I don't care how durable it is if it wont stop one of the most common rounds here. ^ This. I have both. Steel is adequate for training purposes to otherwise act in lieu of go-to-war ceramic plates, but simply does not provide the minimal protection against one of the most common armor defeats. In my area, the crazy SHTF scenario people are supposedly worried about is going to have a serious proliferation of .243, 22-250 and other magnums, plus a metric shit-ton of M193. Steel armor is something the bad guys can laugh at as their assorted quarter-inch holes magically appear. Add in the spall concerns and why does this conversation continue? While I agree that ceramic is better then steel I've seen more then a few torture tests shooting steel from 25-30yrds with 5.56 and it stopping the rounds completely. Ceramic is better, but for people that want bump in the night gear spending the price of a single ceramic plate and getting a full set (Front, back, and side plates) is not a hard choice. |
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Posted: 1/21/2014 7:39:41 PM EDT
[#30]
If I'm in a situation like you describe, I'm just not going to use armor at all. I'd rather be light.
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Posted: 1/21/2014 8:49:39 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AR500 will not stop 193. I don't care how durable it is if it wont stop one of the most common rounds here. I posted a video earlier on page 1. Skip ahead to 5:30 if you want to cut to the chase. http://youtu.be/yq3o806iMmw
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Posted: 1/22/2014 4:39:40 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I posted a video earlier on page 1. Skip ahead to 5:30 if you want to cut to the chase. http://youtu.be/yq3o806iMmw Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
AR500 will not stop 193. I don't care how durable it is if it wont stop one of the most common rounds here. I posted a video earlier on page 1. Skip ahead to 5:30 if you want to cut to the chase. http://youtu.be/yq3o806iMmw Well, that settles that. Thanks for posting that up. Looks like that makes steel the poor man's armor/economic compromise, lowest cost for highest weight. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 5:03:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Multiple survivors banding together. Might be that Joe took 2 to the chest and then bled out from a femoral wound, but that now Susy can use the plates for herself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
SHTF scenario where you can't just pop online and order some more plates and don't have a logistics train following you. I agree it is unlikely, but most of what is prepared for is unlikely. Can you describe a STHF scenario where you need to survive multiple gunfights, and yet what plate is in your carrier is your top priority? Multiple survivors banding together. Might be that Joe took 2 to the chest and then bled out from a femoral wound, but that now Susy can use the plates for herself. Survivors of what? Zombies? Armageddon? you really are in Mad Max fantasy land at the moment and need to return to reality. If you truely are concerned about the end of the world and plan to live in your remote bunker/cabin in the wilderness cut off from society and need plates that can withstand, hundreds of its and last decades if not centuries then please go buy steel plates. But for the rest of use who live in reality and are more concerned with things like home defense, civil unrest or the crack head with a the gun he just stole from your neighbor house down the street kicks in your back door at 3 am looking for cash, electronics and prescription drugs, buy yourself some ceramic plates. Number of zombie apocalypses in my life time: 0 Number of nuclear apocalypses in my life time: 0 Number of robberies to my home or close neighbors in my life time: 13 Im only in my mid 20s so statistically someone i know or myself is robbed every other year and i actually live in a good neighborhood. So when im designing my gear setup home defense is the #1 priority and am comfortable knowing that IF a zombie invasion were to occur my gear will be more than sufficient considering 99% of society will be rocking back and forth in the corner of a dark room just waiting to die. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 6:55:24 AM EDT
[#34]
The zombie apocalypse / home defense scenario entirely lacks any middle ground....and there's plenty.
In respect to the stated concern of home break in, your rationalization makes perfect sense. And....if everyone shared your home break in concern, then your solution would be universally accurate. People buy plates for a variety of needs and concerns, and quite frankly the bunker in the woods, zombie apocalypse condicention is taking every scenario other than your own and minimizing it to some ridiculous assertion. I'm not disputing anything in respect to ceramic plates, they are clearly the most desirable choice given the parameters defined by some. However ridiculing others because there intended use differs from your own is simply being an asshole. As stated before, it would stand to reason that for those including, as well as looking beyond, a home break in, ceramic would still be ideal, and in the event circumstance change where both effectiveness and longevity are important, to have back up plates, including the possibility of steel plates. Why are people so fucking arrogant regarding his subject? |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 8:12:20 AM EDT
[#35]
This argument is pretty much like saying you are going to die if you don't buy a Noveske rifle.
Is it one of the best there is? Yes. Can you get by with a PSA ptac? Sure. It comes down to assumed risk. How many people run around with Noveske rifles vs "lower tier" rifles? That alone should show you that this isn't an all or nothing argument. If I knew that tomorrow I would have to go and get shot in the chest...I would sell my house and buy the fanciest fucking armor system on the planet and rest easy. But getting shot in the chest for a civilian is pretty fucking low on the worry meter, and I don't feel like spending more than a couple hundred on armor. For training purposes, steel is perfect. For urban unrest/ shtf, ANY armor is better than no armor. Best part about steel is that once you upgrade to ceramic plates you have a spare set to loan to someone, targets to shoot, or just resell them. Or more likely, you will realize that steel will work fine for your needs and be satisfied that you will be protected. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 8:16:05 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Survivors of what? Zombies? Armageddon? you really are in Mad Max fantasy land at the moment and need to return to reality. If you truely are concerned about the end of the world and plan to live in your remote bunker/cabin in the wilderness cut off from society and need plates that can withstand, hundreds of its and last decades if not centuries then please go buy steel plates. But for the rest of use who live in reality and are more concerned with things like home defense, civil unrest or the crack head with a the gun he just stole from your neighbor house down the street kicks in your back door at 3 am looking for cash, electronics and prescription drugs, buy yourself some ceramic plates. Number of zombie apocalypses in my life time: 0 Number of nuclear apocalypses in my life time: 0 Number of robberies to my home or close neighbors in my life time: 13 Im only in my mid 20s so statistically someone i know or myself is robbed every other year and i actually live in a good neighborhood. So when im designing my gear setup home defense is the #1 priority and am comfortable knowing that IF a zombie invasion were to occur my gear will be more than sufficient considering 99% of society will be rocking back and forth in the corner of a dark room just waiting to die. So what's your main gripe with steel then? You've said that for multi-hit, it's the winner. We all know it's cheaper. But it's heavier. So, YOUR OPINION is that it's better because it's lighter? Looking at your count of issues in your lifetime above, I'll save that extra money and use it elsewhere (more ammo, better lighting, etc), when I only need to wear the heavier plates for a few minutes or hours here and there. If it were something I was going to wear day in, day out everyday of my life, then yes, the weight savings would make a bigger difference to me...but as you have pointed out, most of us will likely not have to wear it very long at all in most scenarios. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 8:51:08 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, that settles that. Thanks for posting that up. Looks like that makes steel the poor man's armor/economic compromise, lowest cost for highest weight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
AR500 will not stop 193. I don't care how durable it is if it wont stop one of the most common rounds here. I posted a video earlier on page 1. Skip ahead to 5:30 if you want to cut to the chase. http://youtu.be/yq3o806iMmw Well, that settles that. Thanks for posting that up. Looks like that makes steel the poor man's armor/economic compromise, lowest cost for highest weight. It doesn't settle anything. No range was specified. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 9:04:57 AM EDT
[#38]
I have put M193, which remains one of the most common rounds on the market, through 1/4" AR500 countless times at CQB range. It leaves a very clean hole, almost like it was drilled. This multi-hit scenario where the plate takes 20 rounds ignores the fact that the spall covering solutions - which I still consider only partially effective - will be severely degraded by that time and you will probably wind up with a sliver of metal in your neck, armpit, or groin, which are all locations of major blood vessels. This is assuming that you will take more than 1-2 hits to an armor plate and not be dead, which is unlikely in the extreme. Steel weighs far too much for most people to wear and remain mobile for more than a few minutes under stress.
Those are facts but some people, most of whom never put their carrier on and so much as walk up a flight of stairs, have made up their minds, so why are we still discussing it? It's a subject that has been beaten to death. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 9:26:30 AM EDT
[#39]
Disregard
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Posted: 1/22/2014 10:32:38 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have put M193, which remains one of the most common rounds on the market, through 1/4" AR500 countless times at CQB range. It leaves a very clean hole, almost like it was drilled. This multi-hit scenario where the plate takes 20 rounds ignores the fact that the spall covering solutions - which I still consider only partially effective - will be severely degraded by that time and you will probably wind up with a sliver of metal in your neck, armpit, or groin, which are all locations of major blood vessels. This is assuming that you will take more than 1-2 hits to an armor plate and not be dead, which is unlikely in the extreme. Steel weighs far too much for most people to wear and remain mobile for more than a few minutes under stress. Those are facts but some people, most of whom never put their carrier on and so much as walk up a flight of stairs, have made up their minds, so why are we still discussing it? It's a subject that has been beaten to death. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have put M193, which remains one of the most common rounds on the market, through 1/4" AR500 countless times at CQB range. It leaves a very clean hole, almost like it was drilled. This multi-hit scenario where the plate takes 20 rounds ignores the fact that the spall covering solutions - which I still consider only partially effective - will be severely degraded by that time and you will probably wind up with a sliver of metal in your neck, armpit, or groin, which are all locations of major blood vessels. This is assuming that you will take more than 1-2 hits to an armor plate and not be dead, which is unlikely in the extreme. Steel weighs far too much for most people to wear and remain mobile for more than a few minutes under stress. Those are facts but some people, most of whom never put their carrier on and so much as walk up a flight of stairs, have made up their minds, so why are we still discussing it? It's a subject that has been beaten to death. My armor carrier weighs 35 lbs, switching to steel plates would add 10-15 lbs and take me from level 4 to level 3 protection...im not sure why people even consider steel plates an option aside from those who are truly on a tight budget. Quoted:
Quoted:
Survivors of what? Zombies? Armageddon? you really are in Mad Max fantasy land at the moment and need to return to reality. If you truely are concerned about the end of the world and plan to live in your remote bunker/cabin in the wilderness cut off from society and need plates that can withstand, hundreds of its and last decades if not centuries then please go buy steel plates. But for the rest of use who live in reality and are more concerned with things like home defense, civil unrest or the crack head with a the gun he just stole from your neighbor house down the street kicks in your back door at 3 am looking for cash, electronics and prescription drugs, buy yourself some ceramic plates. Number of zombie apocalypses in my life time: 0 Number of nuclear apocalypses in my life time: 0 Number of robberies to my home or close neighbors in my life time: 13 Im only in my mid 20s so statistically someone i know or myself is robbed every other year and i actually live in a good neighborhood. So when im designing my gear setup home defense is the #1 priority and am comfortable knowing that IF a zombie invasion were to occur my gear will be more than sufficient considering 99% of society will be rocking back and forth in the corner of a dark room just waiting to die. So what's your main gripe with steel then? You've said that for multi-hit, it's the winner. We all know it's cheaper. But it's heavier. So, YOUR OPINION is that it's better because it's lighter? Looking at your count of issues in your lifetime above, I'll save that extra money and use it elsewhere (more ammo, better lighting, etc), when I only need to wear the heavier plates for a few minutes or hours here and there. If it were something I was going to wear day in, day out everyday of my life, then yes, the weight savings would make a bigger difference to me...but as you have pointed out, most of us will likely not have to wear it very long at all in most scenarios. My OPINION is that the argument about a TEOTWAWKI situation where you need a plate that can be shot dozens of times is kind of silly. In that dream world sure steel plates are better, but in the real world ceramic is better, and yes, steel plates are extremely heavy but if you are Mr. Arnold The Terminator then the extra weight of steel is no big deal, but if youre a small guy, older or out of shape every pound counts. As far as cost goes steel is way cheaper and may be all some people can afford, but for others spending a couple hundred bucks extra is nothing to them, maybe stop buying so much darn ammo, if you sell just one, 1000 round can of 5.56 ammo you could afford to upgrade from steel to ceramic plates. Steel plates will take multiple rounds, but as myself and others have stated expecting to take all of your shots square in the chest is ridiculous, i promise you will never life long enough to take 20+ hits to on a single rifle plate even if it is in different fire fights. You might get lucky the first few times but eventually one of those rounds will zip through your skull ending your Mad Max parade. Summary: Leave your Mad Max dream world, come back to reality, buy ceramic plates. END RANT |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 10:42:41 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My armor carrier weighs 35 lbs, switching to steel plates would add 10-15 lbs and take me from level 4 to level 3 protection...im not sure why people even consider steel plates an option aside from those who are truly on a tight budget. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have put M193, which remains one of the most common rounds on the market, through 1/4" AR500 countless times at CQB range. It leaves a very clean hole, almost like it was drilled. This multi-hit scenario where the plate takes 20 rounds ignores the fact that the spall covering solutions - which I still consider only partially effective - will be severely degraded by that time and you will probably wind up with a sliver of metal in your neck, armpit, or groin, which are all locations of major blood vessels. This is assuming that you will take more than 1-2 hits to an armor plate and not be dead, which is unlikely in the extreme. Steel weighs far too much for most people to wear and remain mobile for more than a few minutes under stress. Those are facts but some people, most of whom never put their carrier on and so much as walk up a flight of stairs, have made up their minds, so why are we still discussing it? It's a subject that has been beaten to death. My armor carrier weighs 35 lbs, switching to steel plates would add 10-15 lbs and take me from level 4 to level 3 protection...im not sure why people even consider steel plates an option aside from those who are truly on a tight budget. The only real argument that it ever boils down to is that someone is going to be walking through the wastelands, continually shrugging off rounds with their steel plate while pillaging and adding to their harem. 
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Posted: 1/22/2014 11:01:12 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only real argument that it ever boils down to is that someone is going to be walking through the wastelands, continually shrugging off rounds with their steel plate while pillaging and adding to their harem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have put M193, which remains one of the most common rounds on the market, through 1/4" AR500 countless times at CQB range. It leaves a very clean hole, almost like it was drilled. This multi-hit scenario where the plate takes 20 rounds ignores the fact that the spall covering solutions - which I still consider only partially effective - will be severely degraded by that time and you will probably wind up with a sliver of metal in your neck, armpit, or groin, which are all locations of major blood vessels. This is assuming that you will take more than 1-2 hits to an armor plate and not be dead, which is unlikely in the extreme. Steel weighs far too much for most people to wear and remain mobile for more than a few minutes under stress. Those are facts but some people, most of whom never put their carrier on and so much as walk up a flight of stairs, have made up their minds, so why are we still discussing it? It's a subject that has been beaten to death. My armor carrier weighs 35 lbs, switching to steel plates would add 10-15 lbs and take me from level 4 to level 3 protection...im not sure why people even consider steel plates an option aside from those who are truly on a tight budget. The only real argument that it ever boils down to is that someone is going to be walking through the wastelands, continually shrugging off rounds with their steel plate while pillaging and adding to their harem. And after a long day of shrugging off rounds the beautiful women of this Harem will be busy pulling slivers of metal and shrapnel out of this neck, arms and thighs from all of the spalling. Living in a post apocalyptic world isnt for the faint of heart 
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Posted: 1/22/2014 11:31:27 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AR500 will not stop 193. I don't care how durable it is if it wont stop one of the most common rounds here. Point blank? Yes. At a distance? Multiple tests prove you wrong. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 11:36:53 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My armor carrier weighs 35 lbs, switching to steel plates would add 10-15 lbs and take me from level 4 to level 3 protection...im not sure why people even consider steel plates an option aside from those who are truly on a tight budget. My OPINION is that the argument about a TEOTWAWKI situation where you need a plate that can be shot dozens of times is kind of silly. In that dream world sure steel plates are better, but in the real world ceramic is better, and yes, steel plates are extremely heavy but if you are Mr. Arnold The Terminator then the extra weight of steel is no big deal, but if youre a small guy, older or out of shape every pound counts. As far as cost goes steel is way cheaper and may be all some people can afford, but for others spending a couple hundred bucks extra is nothing to them, maybe stop buying so much darn ammo, if you sell just one, 1000 round can of 5.56 ammo you could afford to upgrade from steel to ceramic plates. Steel plates will take multiple rounds, but as myself and others have stated expecting to take all of your shots square in the chest is ridiculous, i promise you will never life long enough to take 20+ hits to on a single rifle plate even if it is in different fire fights. You might get lucky the first few times but eventually one of those rounds will zip through your skull ending your Mad Max parade. Summary: Leave your Mad Max dream world, come back to reality, buy ceramic plates. END RANT Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have put M193, which remains one of the most common rounds on the market, through 1/4" AR500 countless times at CQB range. It leaves a very clean hole, almost like it was drilled. This multi-hit scenario where the plate takes 20 rounds ignores the fact that the spall covering solutions - which I still consider only partially effective - will be severely degraded by that time and you will probably wind up with a sliver of metal in your neck, armpit, or groin, which are all locations of major blood vessels. This is assuming that you will take more than 1-2 hits to an armor plate and not be dead, which is unlikely in the extreme. Steel weighs far too much for most people to wear and remain mobile for more than a few minutes under stress. Those are facts but some people, most of whom never put their carrier on and so much as walk up a flight of stairs, have made up their minds, so why are we still discussing it? It's a subject that has been beaten to death. My armor carrier weighs 35 lbs, switching to steel plates would add 10-15 lbs and take me from level 4 to level 3 protection...im not sure why people even consider steel plates an option aside from those who are truly on a tight budget. Quoted: Quoted: Survivors of what? Zombies? Armageddon? you really are in Mad Max fantasy land at the moment and need to return to reality. If you truely are concerned about the end of the world and plan to live in your remote bunker/cabin in the wilderness cut off from society and need plates that can withstand, hundreds of its and last decades if not centuries then please go buy steel plates. But for the rest of use who live in reality and are more concerned with things like home defense, civil unrest or the crack head with a the gun he just stole from your neighbor house down the street kicks in your back door at 3 am looking for cash, electronics and prescription drugs, buy yourself some ceramic plates. Number of zombie apocalypses in my life time: 0 Number of nuclear apocalypses in my life time: 0 Number of robberies to my home or close neighbors in my life time: 13 Im only in my mid 20s so statistically someone i know or myself is robbed every other year and i actually live in a good neighborhood. So when im designing my gear setup home defense is the #1 priority and am comfortable knowing that IF a zombie invasion were to occur my gear will be more than sufficient considering 99% of society will be rocking back and forth in the corner of a dark room just waiting to die. So what's your main gripe with steel then? You've said that for multi-hit, it's the winner. We all know it's cheaper. But it's heavier. So, YOUR OPINION is that it's better because it's lighter? Looking at your count of issues in your lifetime above, I'll save that extra money and use it elsewhere (more ammo, better lighting, etc), when I only need to wear the heavier plates for a few minutes or hours here and there. If it were something I was going to wear day in, day out everyday of my life, then yes, the weight savings would make a bigger difference to me...but as you have pointed out, most of us will likely not have to wear it very long at all in most scenarios. My OPINION is that the argument about a TEOTWAWKI situation where you need a plate that can be shot dozens of times is kind of silly. In that dream world sure steel plates are better, but in the real world ceramic is better, and yes, steel plates are extremely heavy but if you are Mr. Arnold The Terminator then the extra weight of steel is no big deal, but if youre a small guy, older or out of shape every pound counts. As far as cost goes steel is way cheaper and may be all some people can afford, but for others spending a couple hundred bucks extra is nothing to them, maybe stop buying so much darn ammo, if you sell just one, 1000 round can of 5.56 ammo you could afford to upgrade from steel to ceramic plates. Steel plates will take multiple rounds, but as myself and others have stated expecting to take all of your shots square in the chest is ridiculous, i promise you will never life long enough to take 20+ hits to on a single rifle plate even if it is in different fire fights. You might get lucky the first few times but eventually one of those rounds will zip through your skull ending your Mad Max parade. Summary: Leave your Mad Max dream world, come back to reality, buy ceramic plates. END RANT 10/10
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Posted: 1/22/2014 11:44:58 AM EDT
[#45]
How do you guys feel about the Midwest Guardian IV plates?
Midwest Guardian IV Ceramic Plates I am ready to purchase, and these seem to be a GREAT option. Anyone with some knowledge, please enlighten me! |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 12:01:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you guys feel about the Midwest Guardian IV plates? Midwest Guardian IV Ceramic Plates I am ready to purchase, and these seem to be a GREAT option. Anyone with some knowledge, please enlighten me! 
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Posted: 1/22/2014 12:17:58 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How do you guys feel about the Midwest Guardian IV plates? Midwest Guardian IV Ceramic Plates I am ready to purchase, and these seem to be a GREAT option. Anyone with some knowledge, please enlighten me!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRGpQ6-rz8I've watched that video, and it has a LOT of great points. I also wanted to confirm this with some of you guys who also may have experience with them. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 12:27:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How do you guys feel about the Midwest Guardian IV plates? Midwest Guardian IV Ceramic Plates I am ready to purchase, and these seem to be a GREAT option. Anyone with some knowledge, please enlighten me! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HRGpQ6-rz8Interesting, those look pretty damn good.
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Posted: 1/22/2014 12:57:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you guys feel about the Midwest Guardian IV plates? Midwest Guardian IV Ceramic Plates I am ready to purchase, and these seem to be a GREAT option. Anyone with some knowledge, please enlighten me! Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you guys feel about the Midwest Guardian IV plates? Midwest Guardian IV Ceramic Plates I am ready to purchase, and these seem to be a GREAT option. Anyone with some knowledge, please enlighten me! http://www.nij.gov/topics/technology/body-armor/pages/compliant-ballistic-armor.aspx I dont believe Midwest industries is on the NIJ approved list, those plates might have been approved at one point in time but since the new standards were released they never had them retested. It doesnt mean that it wont stop a round, just means they havent gone through the latest NIJ testing and approval process, alot of small companies avoid doing this because of the cost, it gets expensive to get your armor certified every few years. They are making their plates to the following standard Protection Level: NIJ IV 0101.04, 2005 Interim Requirements I believe they are up too NIJ Standard-0101.06 which if im not mistaken was developed in 2009. So basically the plates you are buying are inexpensive because they are not NIJ .06 approved and are being produced to the older .04 standards. |
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Posted: 1/22/2014 1:07:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Is there a shelf life on ceramic plates?
Is structural degradation ever an issue?
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