Ar500 Armor weight?? - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Ar500 Armor weight?? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 3/22/2014 11:06:14 AM EDT

[#1]

I don't see ar500 as "inadequate" and the midwest lvl iv's weigh about the same. I don't really see one being any better than the other until you start looking at very light lvl iv's. But you can outfit a lot more pc's with ar500 plates when you get to that price point. When you start insulting people for their choice of armor it becomes obvious your intent is not to help, but to sound like an elitist know it all. Either choice will stop rounds, plain and simple.

Posted: 3/22/2014 12:47:32 PM EDT

[#2]

This kind of shit happens all the time, with ARs for example. Guys with the higher priced albeit higher quality brand ARs insist upon and recommend what they chose based on performance and make a standard of that quality level. Sometimes they're snide about it, sometimes they're actually trying to help others do themselves a favor via buy once/cry once.

Then there's the crowd with lesser/bargain bin quality priced ARs that bought them cause they either didn't know better or their pockets weren't as deep. They'll either, upon contrast or confrontation with the first crowd, A.) Get insulted and defensive, and insist that what they bought is "just as good" as the higher cost/quality options and can do all the same things, and is quality enough to suit their needs, or B.) Take a hint, do their homework, and their next rifle purchase will be of that higher cost/quality tier, either because they sold that bargain bin quality rifle towards it, or that they saved up and invested in themselves a little more like they could/should have the first time.

You can apply that buy once/cry once adherence to a higher standard to everything covered on this website.

But when it comes to armor, I'd rather buy and cry once than buy once and not cry at all because I'm dead.

And I'm going to entertain what I have a sneaking suspicion as to what sounds like a SHTF scenario reference. In the event (whatever flavor you prefer) that would call for many plate carriers needing to be filled with armor, I would still move to enforce that adherence to a higher standard if it meant affording those wearing said plate carriers a higher survivability rate and the chance of making it through more than one fight. And that would apply to as much of their gear as possible. I do this with my own friends now.

Bottom line, the argument that "I went with this option because it was more affordable" is nullified if you own even as much as one AR, never mind the extra ammo, mags, and plate carrier to go with it. If you could afford all of that, you can cough up ~$290 for a pair of Level IV stand alone ceramic plates.

Posted: 3/22/2014 1:07:24 PM EDT

[#3]

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Currahee, let me say up front, I refer to your website several friends from different walks of life, whether civilian or other LEO friends from work, when they're looking for information beyond firearms or a tac rig, for a great deal of other things they ought to know, to include other items they ought to have, and reading materials.

That's to say, your site is a very detailed and informative collective resource that I've been confident in referring others to.

With this plate business, you're better than this. The information showing ceramic Level IV plates to be the superior option over coated AR500 steel plates is out there, in large amounts and in great depth. They are lighter in weight and offer greater protection than the steel plates.

I was in your shoes once. I bought coated steel plates first. I figured they were better than nothing, were bargain priced (something to watch out for,) and that they were more durable and would stand up to more abuse, and last longer over time. Then I ran with them in a course and I really felt the weight. Then I saw how affordable Level IV plates were. Then I did the comparative research. I read ballistic reports. I watched videos. I've seen the steel plates defeated.

I thought, what was I thinking? I searched and read around, and ended up with Midwest Armor GUARDIAN IV plates at less than 300 for the pair. I tried em on, and you could feel the difference, and it was backed by the confidence in the science behind them that made them the better choice.

I know Layer60 might be abrasive in his approach. When I was a steel plate guy, before I knew who he was or what his background was, I thought he was a dick. So I know how you feel. Then I shut up and read what he had to say, paid attention, and followed up on what he said with my own research. He's right, man. He's right. Don't blow him off. Give it some good thought. You owe it to yourself and your readers to have the best information in mind and on hand. Every citizen a soldier would be a worthless effort if they were all cut down in the first volley because they were weighed down by inadequate protection.

Thing about bargain priced... you get what you pay for. Think about it.

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1st, thank you for the comments regarding my website.

One of the things you might have noticed is I suggest research, testing and training. That is what I am doing with armor right now. I have pieces of AR500 that have withstood hundreds of rifle rounds at 25 yards and thousands of rounds at 100 yards. I have no doubt in its ability to stop bullets. I also have a plate from the same manufacturer as my rifle plates than I intend to shoot even more (and closer.) I fully understand the weight issue. I'm in the process of seeing how much it hurts me so I can give an honest opinion... to the extend I do PT in them, mow the grass, wrestle with my son and shoot drills. All so I can create and informed opinion that I will present across several medias. (I do that with everything, as you seem to appreciate.) That testing and training is what I would do no matter what- it makes ME better and more informed, I just started putting it on the web a little while ago cause it's fun and might help some folks.

If I can find something that saves people money, and it works for me, I will suggest it as an option while explaining the limitations. There is a lot of gear out there that the ARFCOM elite will ridicule that does a good job. (FOBUS holsters 10 years ago would be a prime example.)

I could have bought ceramic plates first- and will by them (assuming we don't NEED our gear in the next few months.) When I do I'll buy three. But I wanted to try steel first- cause cost is a factor to many people (me included), I know it can't go bad, and it makes me train harder anyway.

All that sounds like I write product reviews. I don't try to- I want my stuff to be way more about mindset, tactics, training, constant evaluation and thinking. I would rather have a guy with an SKS and a cloth bandoleer that thinks and trains vs ten internet assholes whose gear looks clean.

As for people coming off like assholes on the internets, I don't have the time to care, they are filtered out instantly. I present my information and discuss things in a rational and polite way. I will continue to do so.

Posted: 3/22/2014 1:20:25 PM EDT

[#4]

You do realize the AR500 steel targets are usually thicker than the AR500 armor plates, and that contributes to their being good targets that can take a beating, right? Layer60 has laid out that for someone to wear steel that thick would cancel out any ballistics benefit on the sheer weight increase alone. Going from .5" to .75" may not seem like a big thing, but spread over the surface region of the steel, that shit adds up in weight.

In short, you can't really shoot steel targets and say "This would make good body armor because nothing I've shot at it has done it any serious damage, penetration, or backface deformation to it." The targets are made for that. Not smart to apply the same logic to thinner plates.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all smart ass to you, but the honest impression I got from you just now was that you were evaluating AR500 steel as a body armor based off the AR500 targets you've been shooting the shit out of.

Posted: 3/22/2014 1:59:50 PM EDT

[#5]

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You do realize the AR500 steel targets are usually thicker than the AR500 armor plates, and that contributes to their being good targets that can take a beating, right? Layer60 has laid out that for someone to wear steel that thick would cancel out any ballistics benefit on the sheer weight increase alone. Going from .5" to .75" may not seem like a big thing, but spread over the surface region of the steel, that shit adds up in weight.

In short, you can't really shoot steel targets and say "This would make good body armor because nothing I've shot at it has done it any serious damage, penetration, or backface deformation to it." The targets are made for that. Not smart to apply the same logic to thinner plates.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all smart ass to you, but the honest impression I got from you just now was that you were evaluating AR500 steel as a body armor based off the AR500 targets you've been shooting the shit out of.

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I am well aware of the difference, which is why I bought an extra plate to shoot the shit out of.

Posted: 3/22/2014 2:07:54 PM EDT

[#6]

Group hug?

Posted: 3/22/2014 3:17:38 PM EDT

[#7]

I started last night. Lol.
CHRIS

Posted: 3/23/2014 12:07:16 AM EDT

[#8]

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Grow Stronger

its steel... not a ceramic / composite material

if it is not to your expectations, ship it back as not as advertised

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Well, there you have it OP. Your answer to all your problems.

Posted: 3/23/2014 7:50:04 AM EDT

[#9]

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Well, there you have it OP. Your answer to all your problems.

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Quoted:
Grow Stronger

its steel... not a ceramic / composite material

if it is not to your expectations, ship it back as not as advertised

Well, there you have it OP. Your answer to all your problems.

That's funny because I think that's the best answer I've seen in this whole thread.

Posted: 3/23/2014 8:59:45 AM EDT

[#10]

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That's funny because I think that's the best answer I've seen in this whole thread.

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Quoted:
Grow Stronger

its steel... not a ceramic / composite material

if it is not to your expectations, ship it back as not as advertised

Well, there you have it OP. Your answer to all your problems.

That's funny because I think that's the best answer I've seen in this whole thread.

Really? Because a body armor manufacturer misrepresenting specs on the weight of their product has nothing to do with it? It's just that OP is a pussy, in your mind?

If they don't bother listing the correct weight of their product, what other bits of useful information are not being accurately represented? Do they test every lot? Do they ever change steel suppliers? Do they ever change cutting methods? Do they ever change shaping/bending methods? Is there extensive testing each time? Can they provide lot testing documentation?

And do you trust their answers to those questions, even though they can't even get the weight right? Do you trust your life to something like that, just to save a hundred bucks, which is - according to this thread - being spent on NV optics which cost thousands of dollars?

Posted: 3/23/2014 9:13:24 AM EDT

[#11]

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Really? Because a body armor manufacturer misrepresenting specs on the weight of their product has nothing to do with it? It's just that OP is a pussy, in your mind?

If they don't bother listing the correct weight of their product, what other bits of useful information are not being accurately represented? Do they test every lot? Do they ever change steel suppliers? Do they ever change cutting methods? Do they ever change shaping/bending methods? Is there extensive testing each time? Can they provide lot testing documentation?

And do you trust their answers to those questions, even though they can't even get the weight right? Do you trust your life to something like that, just to save a hundred bucks, which is - according to this thread - being spent on NV optics which cost thousands of dollars?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Grow Stronger

its steel... not a ceramic / composite material

if it is not to your expectations, ship it back as not as advertised

Well, there you have it OP. Your answer to all your problems.

That's funny because I think that's the best answer I've seen in this whole thread.

Really? Because a body armor manufacturer misrepresenting specs on the weight of their product has nothing to do with it? It's just that OP is a pussy, in your mind?

If they don't bother listing the correct weight of their product, what other bits of useful information are not being accurately represented? Do they test every lot? Do they ever change steel suppliers? Do they ever change cutting methods? Do they ever change shaping/bending methods? Is there extensive testing each time? Can they provide lot testing documentation?

And do you trust their answers to those questions, even though they can't even get the weight right? Do you trust your life to something like that, just to save a hundred bucks, which is - according to this thread - being spent on NV optics which cost thousands of dollars?

I was merely looking at it from a perspective of, it's pretty obvious that they misrepresented their product so the OP can either accept it and live with it, or send it back. In the end those are really the two options that he has.
There has been other useful information posted here. I shouldn't have discounted that.

Posted: 3/23/2014 9:44:26 AM EDT

[#12]

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I was merely looking at it from a perspective of, it's pretty obvious that they misrepresented their product so the OP can either accept it and live with it, or send it back. In the end those are really the two options that he has.
There has been other useful information posted here. I shouldn't have discounted that.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Grow Stronger

its steel... not a ceramic / composite material

if it is not to your expectations, ship it back as not as advertised

Well, there you have it OP. Your answer to all your problems.

That's funny because I think that's the best answer I've seen in this whole thread.

Really? Because a body armor manufacturer misrepresenting specs on the weight of their product has nothing to do with it? It's just that OP is a pussy, in your mind?

If they don't bother listing the correct weight of their product, what other bits of useful information are not being accurately represented? Do they test every lot? Do they ever change steel suppliers? Do they ever change cutting methods? Do they ever change shaping/bending methods? Is there extensive testing each time? Can they provide lot testing documentation?

And do you trust their answers to those questions, even though they can't even get the weight right? Do you trust your life to something like that, just to save a hundred bucks, which is - according to this thread - being spent on NV optics which cost thousands of dollars?

I was merely looking at it from a perspective of, it's pretty obvious that they misrepresented their product so the OP can either accept it and live with it, or send it back. In the end those are really the two options that he has.
There has been other useful information posted here. I shouldn't have discounted that.

Fair enough. And for what it's worth, I agree on the option to send it back. I just think it was worth having the discussion on how the weight on the website is not accurate. Coated AR500 steel cannot possibly be that light in the dimensions given.

Posted: 3/25/2014 2:02:15 PM EDT

[#13]

I am in the market for a set of XL plates. Because I need the larger size I would really prefer to buy ceramic due to the weight savings. My problem is that the extra 20 square inches or so on a XL plate seems to run two to three times the price. Lot's of people post great deals but when I go and look it seems that a lot of the companies don't even make and XL plate.

Posted: 3/25/2014 4:16:45 PM EDT

[#14]

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I am in the market for a set of XL plates. Because I need the larger size I would really prefer to buy ceramic due to the weight savings. My problem is that the extra 20 square inches or so on a XL plate seems to run two to three times the price. Lot's of people post great deals but when I go and look it seems that a lot of the companies don't even make and XL plate.

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You would want something like an "ESAPI equivalent" XL plate, which is 11x14 and still remains in the tolerable weight range, due to it's construction. Unfortunately, that construction also comes at a hefty price tag. FYI, manufacturers cannot sell a plate as an "ESAPI" but they can call it a "mil-spec" plate or something indicative. If you go to the right company, it's the same plate. They are a level III/IV In-Conjunction plate. Typical prices, last I looked, were around $750 a plate.

Posted: 3/25/2014 6:10:15 PM EDT

[#15]

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I don't see ar500 as "inadequate" and the midwest lvl iv's weigh about the same. I don't really see one being any better than the other until you start looking at very light lvl iv's. But you can outfit a lot more pc's with ar500 plates when you get to that price point. When you start insulting people for their choice of armor it becomes obvious your intent is not to help, but to sound like an elitist know it all. Either choice will stop rounds, plain and simple.

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Ive got both plates you mentioned, and I can tell you the Midwest Plates feel much lighter on my shoulders then the Ar500. But Ive never tossed them on the scale.

Posted: 3/25/2014 6:43:04 PM EDT

[#16]

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Ive got both plates you mentioned, and I can tell you the Midwest Plates feel much lighter on my shoulders then the Ar500. But Ive never tossed them on the scale.

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Quoted:
I don't see ar500 as "inadequate" and the midwest lvl iv's weigh about the same. I don't really see one being any better than the other until you start looking at very light lvl iv's. But you can outfit a lot more pc's with ar500 plates when you get to that price point. When you start insulting people for their choice of armor it becomes obvious your intent is not to help, but to sound like an elitist know it all. Either choice will stop rounds, plain and simple.

Ive got both plates you mentioned, and I can tell you the Midwest Plates feel much lighter on my shoulders then the Ar500. But Ive never tossed them on the scale.

I believe the OP, the plates weigh more than advertised to be sure... your carrying about 6 pounds extra with 10x12 steel plates vs the Midwest, I can live with that for now- up to you to decide if you can.

When I look for ceramic it's gonna be some seriously light ones.

Posted: 3/25/2014 9:47:19 PM EDT

[#17]

the 7.5lbs weight is for their plates with the very small base coating. ( I own these). If you go with the built up base coat, it adds an extra 1/2'' and it says it adds 3/4 lbs

http://www.ar500armor.com/line-x-protective-base-coating.html

Posted: 3/26/2014 4:56:10 AM EDT

[#18]

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I believe the OP, the plates weigh more than advertised to be sure... your carrying about 6 pounds extra with 10x12 steel plates vs the Midwest, I can live with that for now- up to you to decide if you can.

When I look for ceramic it's gonna be some seriously light ones.

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Quoted:
I don't see ar500 as "inadequate" and the midwest lvl iv's weigh about the same. I don't really see one being any better than the other until you start looking at very light lvl iv's. But you can outfit a lot more pc's with ar500 plates when you get to that price point. When you start insulting people for their choice of armor it becomes obvious your intent is not to help, but to sound like an elitist know it all. Either choice will stop rounds, plain and simple.

Ive got both plates you mentioned, and I can tell you the Midwest Plates feel much lighter on my shoulders then the Ar500. But Ive never tossed them on the scale.

I believe the OP, the plates weigh more than advertised to be sure... your carrying about 6 pounds extra with 10x12 steel plates vs the Midwest, I can live with that for now- up to you to decide if you can.

When I look for ceramic it's gonna be some seriously light ones.

I would love to have some 3.5lbs plates, but I was lucky and caught Highcom when they had the wrong price up for a package deal and along with 25% off I got (2) Midwest Plates for right at $200 to my door, couldnt pass that up.

Also, I had side plates (ar500) which really added some weight, going to some IIIa soft armor to help that out.