The Original MOLLE I gear system was designed to allow the Soldier to carry a very large Field Pack in conjunction with his normal belt and harness carried field gear.  The plastic docking platform built-in to the back of the load-carrying MOLLE I waist belt was designed to allow the soldier to doff his main pack, (perhaps) detach "parasite" small pack from Main pack, and to move on, with most immediate-use gear still attached to belt and/or vest.

The original MOLLE I pack system did not work out well for various reasons, all of which discussed elsewhere.   US Mil has "soldiered-on" using various components of the original (and later variants) of the Molle I pack system to this day.  Marines do much the same thing, with their current FILBE gear.

Why Army and Marine field gear need to be different is beyond me, but that's the subject of a different thread.

A common problem is that the Soldier's Pack's waist belt rides in the same area of his body as does the "War Belt".  Some ways to get around this, but AFAIK, none are fully "satisfactory".  Hence the attachment of some items to the MOLLE I "Vest", and to later armor-carriers and PCs.

Still, the overall MOLLE I idea was a good one, but no decent alternatives to MOLLE I exist within US gear set; perhaps I missed something.

Not being an "Expert", but it seems to me that some aspects of the Brit gear-carrying system just might have some distinct advantages over current US MOLLE/FILBE pack systems.

If I understand things correctly, in the Brit system, the somewhat shorter main pack rides atop the specifically intended (supporting) rear pouches mounted on the wide, load-carrying waistbelt (with shoulder harness) in normal "Marching/Approach" use.  Doffing the Main Pack still leaves all the items attached to the load-carrying waist belt, and still allows use of a small "parasite" pack to be detached from Main pack.   Items attached to a "vest" or a PC are also undisturbed.

Again, not being an "Expert", but this arrangement seems to fill all the functional requirements of the original (and failed) Molle I system, and with few obvious drawbacks, aside from "jump-capable" issue that some posters mentioned.  Not an "Expert" but seems to me that "most" gear items should be designed for the greatest number of troops, and specialized troops can have the specialized gear that they require.

After some repeated and detailed explanations given by experienced users, I'm considering the Brit approach to field gear in a different, and more favorable light.

For starters, unlike the (failed) US MOLLE I system, the Brit system does not require extraordinary measures to re-don the main pack.  Doffing Main pack leaves all existing gear intact and allows donning a water bladder or small field pack.

Time will tell; good ideas usually win-out, unless the bean-counters have their way.

US Mil has a long history of using items that are currently in use and stockpiled in the millions.

Frankly, I'm kinda surprised that US adopted the PALS system, since it was "Not Invented Here".

YMMV.

I honestly don't know how the Brits jump today; they wore their full PLCE kit when I jump with them in the mid-90's. Use of armor has made things...different. I also think our own lessons on combat over the past 20 years has condensed field operations to vehicle/helo insertions, do less-than-24 hour mission and then catch a ride back to the FOB for a hot meal and shower.  Combat rotations and mission-specific training for deployment/mobilization has really taken a lot of field-learning out of training environment...it will be interesting to see if it comes back.

I'm guilty as well. I have my high-speed plate carrier and just used a minimalist chest rig when in theater and later as a civilian advisor. Minimal combat load, short duration mission, all transportation was helo or up-armored convoys.

Now, I find myself looking back at my roots of patrolling. Just patrolling around the property (which has a lake, spring and swampy area and can be very jungle-like in the summer), there is no chance in hell I'm wearing even my lightest plate carrier and I find the more traditional harness kit much better suited to my needs; better airflow, and slightly greater load-carrying capacity for an "Army of One". It's more of a patrolling-bushcraft kit. I don't see it as a direction-action combat kit; not my priority. It's more for recce and having the capability to stay out a few days without much discomfort (more important these days!).

I don't think our current military will go back to something like that, but I suspect hybrids will pop up depending on where and how we deploy forces in the future. One thing is for certain, materials are much, much better and much better suited to jungle-type environments where they're light, thinner, stronger, and won't absorb water.


Good book and you can still find copies floating around out.

The Military has always taken innovative ideas and products and then screwed up the design when they get the best-valued bidder to mass produce. It's why COTS will remain a major supply point for those with the budget and means to leverage them.

Thanks for the link on the podcast, will save that to listen to later!

ROCK6

You're welcome!

I think the attraction of ensembles as pictured by OP are their being useful modern-day adaptations to ancient ALICE gear, with modern non-absorbent material substituted for old-style M-1956 cotton material, and plenty of venting of harness panels and such.

Understanding what was done (or attempted) in the past can be useful in understanding where we are at present, and possibly avoiding past mistakes.

Good book btw.  (Jungle Snafus)  I have a copy.

**

We haven't had a large-scale, long-term operation, much less a war, in a non-desert environment in, what, over 20 years?  It's all been desert / low humidity mountain operations in Iraq / Afghanistan.

And even then, most of the war was an occupation that was tailored more towards keeping US casualties down in said occupation vs. large scale combat.

Same with wars where we have absolute control of the sky, zero enemy airborne threat, minimal if any electronic threat, basically zero logistical issues, always having heliborne medical evac available, everyone being motorized at a minimum (other than certain places in Afghanistan in the mountains), etc.

Alot of our gear has been tailored for that specific environment and how we can operate in that environment.

I've wondered how alot of our equipment would fare in large scale modern combat elsewhere.  Especially hot / humid climates.  

I bought Jungle Snafus--And Remedies and read it a few years ago.  I think it was on your recommendation in another thread.  It's a good and informative read.

RAF i'd add something:

-I own for collecting purposes a full Molle1 set, concept is good, but realization is not. Aside from durability issues the problem is that in order to lock the frame into the belt socket you have to cant the rucksack 45° to the back, if you pull straight up and down it won't lock/unlock. Doing that movement with a heavy ruck is simply not feasible. The VHS instructions clearly show packs filled with some light styrofoam material. The video is the earlier version of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nryzsutku5o&t=177s but it seems it was never digitized on youtube, anyway this one too shows styrofoam filled packs.

-I don't think the brit approache originally planned for resting packs over the pouches. I am not an expert on earlier design, but the PLCE 1990 pattern had two sized rucksack, sized for soldier's height, the "shortback" and "longback", i think it was for soldier over and under 180 centimeters. i guess they just discovered that the shortback, being shorter,  could rest over the pouches.

-MOLLE, or even better said PALS webbing was somehow invented in the US. Natick simply ripped off the Strap Connector design that Tim D'Annunzio (Paraclete founder, at the time named JS Industries) patented in 1992. I think earliest issue PALS vest was the ranger RACK.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5259093A/en
I have a couple of those vest and pouches from the early 90's with that attaching system.
BTW the poor man was also ripped off when Eagle stole his emergency release from the RAV when they developed the CIRAS body armor vest (very early CIRAS is basically a straight RAV copy). I think he tried some legal actions.

-I think somehow the idea of transferring weight to the waist stayed and somehow evolved with a couple of design that let you transfer some weight of your body armor into the molle war belt.  Namely London Bridge Trading CASS, Crye Precision STKSS and i think the most widely used is the SOURCE DWD being issued by Brits as part of their VIRTUS system. i think the Source one is the only one that could be adapted to other armor vests, but i could be very wrong.

Yeah, this is an ironic twist as the short back Bergens were (and are) used in conjunction with their PLCE belt kits and they do sit the ruck on the "shelf" of the pouches. I'm toying with it (again) using Jay Jay's kit and it does seem to work better than my older circa-early 90's LBE and ALICE Ruck kit. The biggest difference is the positioning of the belt kit; it's a snug fit and doesn't dangle like the LBE. We use to have to lower our LBE so the ALICE (both medium and large) rucks would sit in the proper lumbar area. The only issue with the short Bergen setup is that you can can't really carry too heavy of a load as the balance just isn't there (and neither is the frame, at least with Jay Jay's version which is more of a large assault pack). It's an interesting "field adopted concept".



Exactly, PALS was a Natick design, but not sure how it was related to what Paraclete (or JS Industries) was doing (I went to their factory in NC decades ago when they were in full production). I was a little surprised my son's GA ANG Infantry unit issued out R.A.C.K.s.

ROCK6

The Source DWS system looks like it has promise. Anyone use it?

It should be British Military individual issue since when they started fielding It in 2016.

You and joeviterbo seem to be better informed about Brit Kit than I am, so I'll listen.

I'm far from an expert on the British kit, I just have found it's a version of the LBE that fits a little better for dynamic moves, but also still has good capacity for more field kit (ala civilian minuteman patrolling).

The only issue is the lack of a single large butt back. My Jay Jay's kit is sewn on, no swapping. It makes it much, much lighter though.

Another option I want to spend more time with is the Russian Smersh. It's basically an old school LBE centered around AK use, and it has a very nice buttpack. It is modular, just not quite PALS like.

Most of our current issued gear is centered on vehicle transportation, short-term missions, and body armor. Take away the vehicle, extend the mission for a few days in a jungle environment and I think things would be viewed differently.

I came into the Army with quite a few grizzled Viet Nam vets who continued serving in the National Guard. Their environment, training, and equipment really developed a lot of valuable lessons learned. The Cold War, post-Cold War, and eventually the GWOT of the past 20 years have all influenced combat kit. It might not come full circle unless we start losing vehicles, air superiority, and start fighting in low-intensity environments again.

For me personally, post-military career, I have to consider more field kit and less fighting kit. I'm mostly scouting, patrolling, doing a little recce, and at worse, an ambush for whatever fantasy scenario. Individuals and even small civilian teams will not be able to sustain combat operations...if the worse ever comes to pass, it will be back to hit and run guerilla tactics and then blending back into the population. Patrolling and collecting info, checking trot/trap lines, securing your perimeter, or reconnoitering new activity in your immediate area are my personal mission sets...it just so happens to almost resemble a jungle-like environment for about 4-6 months out of the year...

ROCK6

I have both a Smersh and a vest system back from my old airsoft days. There's two versions of it: the classic which is very similar to the old ALICE belt kit, with a buttpack, two or four mag pouches, which also have grenade pouches that also hold RSP flares. There's also another version that's almost identical, except instead of the padded belt it's a padded belt that has PALS webbing on it, so it's more like a battle belt with a suspender system, and will fit newer versions of the pouches that use PALS to mount as opposed to belt loops. The buttpack can be mounted low and fits with some of their assault packs, or up against the shoulders like a small backpack.

Like most of the aftermarket stuff in Russia from companies like SSO and Splav, they're not bad, they're good things for handing out to quickly equip a bunch of relatively untrained folks.

That was certainly the thinking with the 58 Pattern webbing. The large pack was intended to be supported by the rear (kidney) pouches. I'm going to guess that PLCE was to follow suit, although PLCE development is outside of my area of interest.

Fireforce makes a decent MOLLE / PALS buttpack that sits at the right height to be compatible with British height MOLLE pouches.  IE, it's the right height to form that shelf you are looking for.

I too wish they had a good sewn-in setup like JayJays, but with a buttpack.  I'm tempted to sew mine on permanently after I get everything dialed in.

I mostly got it because it wasn't that expensive and was surprised it was actually pretty well made. I wanted to build a kit for my AK, and this is already designed for it (it works with every other mag as well). I'll have to check, not sure if mine has PALS or not as I put it together a while back. It's in the same category I would put any other load-bearing kit for use in hot/humid, junkle like climates. It's solid kit for the little amount of use and rolling around with it...


Yeah, that's why I'm thinking I may just get the Jay Jay's belt as I have some Velocity stuff already (along with some Helium pouches from Blue Force Gear), including their buttpack...

ROCK6

I've never messed with the SMERSH rigs, though I've been interested in them, especially since I'm an AK nut.  But I've heard the newer production ones aren't very good.

Also, I've been trying to get a Gorka suit recently and I'm hearing from everyone that Russia isn't shipping stuff out.  So you'd have to go 2nd hand.

I DO like the basic SMERSH setup though, from the looks of it.  I think that mix and matching some of the concepts from the SMERSH with the British PLCE system would make a good base system.  For instance the 8 point harness with the SMERSH and the buttpack.  I also like the 2nd, optional smaller belt, to help stop the pouches flopping around.  Throw in the longer back on the PLCE Yoke, the wider main belt of the PLCE (which might offset needing the 2nd smaller belt on the SMERSH if you are going MOLLE instead of attaching directly to a belt over a pad like the Russian setup or the PLCE with a Hippo belt), the PLCE Utility pouches (for canteen pouches, as the Russian canteen pouches are funky), stuff like that.

I really should scrounge up a SMERSH.  Right now I have an old ALICE rig with a PLCE yoke set up with AK pouches.

You are right for the pattern 58, i was able to fin the paragraph in the early assembly manual that says "when a backload (i.e pack) is worn in addition to the fighting order a mess tin should be packed inside the rear pouch top, giving a rest to the backload"

I didn't find anything similar for the PLCE. I think it is because as per manual the PLCE "90 pattern equipment infantry fitting instructions" the assault order is comprised by belt, two ammunition pouches, one canteen pouch and one almost identical utility pouch, but the back part hosts the entrenching tool carrier and the gas mask bag (respirator haversack) which aren't good shelves for the pack. the assault order also has one utility pouch from the rucksack strapped to the suspenders. it can be scaled up by attaching two utility pouches or carrying the rucksack.

Also, the text "clothing and textiles management policy letter-90 pattern infantry webbing equipment" doesn't mention it, only mentions that "rucksack belt can be fastened below or above the webbing belt and is a matter for personal preference".  It also specifies that the Shortback bergen is 9 centimeters shorter (49 vs. 58 centimeters) and the thresold between shortback and longback rucksack should be a soldiers height of 5ft 6in.

I think the PLCE assembled with numerous utility pouches used as a shelf for the short bergen worn without a belt was a modification that came out of experience (if i recall correctly also pattern 58 kidney pouches were sometime exchanged with more utility pouches). Just like ALICE lce that was almost always worn in a different manner than the original intention, i think it's quite normal.

I'm trying figure out a yoke right now. I really do like the Jay Jay's design, but shipping cost suck big dick. I could look around for a surplus MTP or just get a traditional H-Harness (like Velocity System). Give that the Jay Jay's Hippo belt system has four attachment points on the back, it's a little odd for after market yokes...

ROCK6

I'm trying to recall where I say it, but I have seen someone loop the rear webbing way up high, then use paracord passed through that webbing loop to create a Y yoke that attaches to the two points on each side of the belt.

ETA:  lol, the smallest picture of this I could imagine:


I know that part of the benefit of a yoke is the vertical webbing running down the wearer's back, keeps the whole business from torqueing around the wearer's body.

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/danish-military-surplus-load-bearing-suspenders-3-pack-new?a=2190648

This is what you seek.  Danish PLCE yokes, new, 3 of them, $20.

I got an extra pack to replace all my old ALICE rig harnesses.  

Also, I'm eyeballing ordering a jayjays harness and such right now actually.  And shipping DOES suck.  But I'm ordering a few other things, soooooo.....

Agreed. If I had to give a bunch of people LBE that had AKs, it'd be a Smersh, or a similar chest system like a Lifchik. The only downside is that Russian gear tends to be overbuilt, so it's definitely not lightweight.


I haven't measured the system but the belts look like standard 2" or 2.25" web belts, so if the PLCE matches with that it'll work. Also the PALS webbing the later gens use looks identical to what we have here. I never tried mounting any of my US-made pouches onto it, but I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. From attaching the existing pouches, it all seems to thread and attach the same way.

Even before lately they never did direct. I knew a guy who lived in Voronezh and he'd visit a local supplier and buy it and ship it to me. They couldn't sell direct to foreign consumers, and this was back in 2014, so long before Ukraine 2: Electric Butthole Glue.

Regarding russian webbing i am not an Expert to recognize every smersh/sbruya/partizan variant, however i Remember some were patterned After plce, some had a harness more akin to Alice h style suspenders.
The standard ones wear like a plce with belt pad, which Is good, but unless you go with the molle One there aren't many useful pouches to choose from.

If you want a solid overbuilt russian load bearing harness and have big Money to spend go Stitch Profi. They have a cool "pkm harness" which i saw in person and it can carry heavy loads, good padding and an overbuilt sizing system via a flap not unlikely a plate carrier would have.
https://imgur.io/a/KTPtgx3

They also have another One meant to carry a Combat load plus It has attachment points for relieving some weight of the Vant ballistic shield, which weights 40 pounds alone. It has a x configuration harness and extended pals webbing in the thigh area. I have never saw one in person though.

https://russianarmyshop.eu/tactical-vests/1650-vest-for-assault-shields-shield.html

Both are very expensive.
Both are very expensive

I've got a few Russian and a few Ukrainian MOLLE style pouches.  They all work1:1 with my MOLLE stuff.

Both are decent stuff.  The russian stuff is a bit crude, stitching is a bit funky, but they made up for it by doing LOTS of it.  But it works fine.

The Ukrainian stuff  (mag shingles, Tacos vs. Kywi style) seem decently made too.  A little more refined, but not quite up to US standards.

I wouldn't feel bad rocking any of the modern-ish Russian infantry gear I've seen.  Not the best, but seems decent for the task.  It'd be like being handed a Russian rack grade AK with Russian optics vs. a new mid-grade AR with a decent optic.  They both work, but one is way cheaper and the other a bit better all around.

I had ordered these from Sportsman’s Guide and they are very nice.  I used one for my TAPS set up.  Much better than the bs “yoke” that is issued.  Now I have two extras that I need to find something to do with.

Yep. The Army-issued stuff is rather eh, but the aftermarket stuff from companies like Splav, SSO (IMO the best maker there), and a few others can stand up with some decent gear makers here in the US. Are they as good as HSGI, Tactical Tailor, or First Spear? No.

And yes, like I said, way overbuilt. They seem to double up on a lot of stuff to make it more durable, which in turn makes some stuff stiffer and heavier than counterparts. Don't know why, but that's what they do.

The earlier thread about the MOLLE bandoliers now has me wondering what's something simple and cheap I could give out for ARs. Hmm...

Build a PLCE style rig.

Upgrade an older ALICE rig with one.

Sell to a buddy to upgrade HIS ALICE rig for $15 to make some of that money back.

Chinese chest rigs.  Even the SKS ones can be easily modded to take AR magazines.



Personally I'd do a bungie cord retention mod to it.

$24 / shipped on Amazon.

Or you can throw together a complete british surplus PLCE setup for around $80.  BudK has mostly complete PLCE setups for $40.  Then Hessen antiques has PLCE canteen pouches (with canteens!) for $10 or so each.  Order 3 of those to complete the PLCE setup.

This thread is interesting, and nice to see folks using their imagination.

I have an observation, and a couple of questions.

Observation:  Seems to me that the waist belt and shoulder yoke are critical items.  the Belt, in particular, has to be constructed to be a load-carrying belt, and not just a simple "War-Belt".  Ideally it would be constructed to provide plenty of drainage and venting, as well as the yoke having such features.

Question: Since the pack "sits" on the "shelf" provided by the rearmost pouches, if those pouches' contents are used/depleted, the "shelf" falls apart.

How is this managed in the real world?

No personal experience here but, while we wait for some, my observation in regards to your question is that it seems that the traditional contents of these pouches I've seen are non-depleting items such as canteens and mess kits.

On a side note, Coleman's has British surplus PLCE short back (the 'medium' size) rucks on sale right now for $40.  The ones that are supposed to work well with PLCE belt kits.  This is a good price for that pack.

https://colemans.com/catalog/product/view/id/4361?_kx=r_T9w0o3J2if1Mdkfs4nWcRU-Ir8wy7ghIeK89UAFVg%3D.TKNMRy

1.  Yes, the waist belt and shoulder yokes are the most important part.  But that isn't the only important thing - the rear pouches and the 'canteen' pouches need to be at the same height.  Oldschool ALICE buttpacks, for instance, rode higher than the canteen pouches, which also didn't have a flat top.  That made the backpack ride a bit unstable.  So you need to make sure you have the right pouches, at least in the rear, to work with the packs.  The magazine pouches and such are far more variable in what you can use.

2.  Also important, and not touched on TOO much in this thread, is the importance of the right pack.

The pack has to be designed (or at least capable of) riding HIGHER on the back than most big backpacks.  The ALICE pack and the (smaller) British PLCE pack happen to be shorter and squater than most packs, which allow it to do that.  Most 3 day and assault packs will probably do a decent job there too.  

When considering the pack, you also want to consider a couple things.  The bottom of the pack has to be, at least, flat.  Not rounded.  PREFERABLE with an external frame that goes all the way to the bottom of the pack, so that the FRAME ITSELF is what is sitting on the shelf of pockets.  (I'll touch a bit more on this below)  But if the pack is designed right (the British PLCE happens to have a decently flat bottom and such) then it will work ok too.

You also want to make sure that the pack doesn't stick up too far above your head (because it is riding higher than most packs are designed to ride) and thus making it hard for you to be able to move through brush and such.  Remember, this gear is designed for dismounted infantry operating away from vehicles and such on foot, usually through heavier terrain than open ground.  Thus brush and such.

3.  The 'shelf'.  Dude above me is right - it's stuff that doesn't deplete much. You have the 2 x canteens (and you really should get a canteen setup / design that allows you to run a metal cup with the canteen nesting inside of it, and a folding or nesting stove setup, so that all your mess kit is in your canteen pouches, freeing more room for stuff in your buttpack / back utility pouches)

In addition to the 2 canteens, which, because they are hard canteens, provide a relatively stable platform themselves, you have your buttpack / rear utility pouches.  These pouches usually would contain minimal sustainment gear.  Poncho or rain jacket.  Poncho liner.  Rifle cleaning kit.  Wool beanie, gloves, an extra pair of socks, cordage, especially if you have a poncho (which is far more useful in this role than the rain jacket, as you can make shelter and such), minimal survival gear (lighter, survival cordage, mirror, etc.), bug spray, etc.  You get the idea.  Most of this stuff is stuff that stays in your buttpack.  In addition, you usually would have a single days stripped down ration for emergencies.  The Germans during ww2 (and elsewhere) referred to these as  'iron rations' and they were strictly for emergencies.  IE, cut off without supplies, etc.

(On a related side note.  The British have poncho rolls - I think they call them bum rolls? - that they use to roll up their poncho in and attach on the outside of their utility pouches.  I've got a USGI surplus MOLLE 'buttpack' that I am playing around in that roll.  I keep wanting to get a real bum roll, but shipping from the UK is so expensive.....anyways, that's an idea to clear up even more room in your buttpack or pouches for rations and such)

This gives you the ability to operate strictly with your web gear without dying for a day or two.  The idea was to eat / drink / use the gear in your pack and save the water and stuff in your buttpack strictly for emergencies.  So odds are, unless you really were screwed and then somehow got back to your pack, you wouldn't be USING the stuff in your buttpack or even the water in your canteens.  Thus it isn't so much of a problem with depleting the stuff in your pouches and losing that 'shelf'.

Also, to finish what I was saying in #2 about pouches, if you have a well designed pack with external frame, the bottom of the frame will be what is resting on and bearing most of the weight of the pack.  That frame, if set up correctly, will be resting on the part of the pouches CLOSEST to your belt.  If your setup is designed correctly, even if the pouches are depleted a good bit, that pack frame will still be riding on the part of the pouches that provide a decent amount of support.

All this back-and-forth is very interesting, and useful to see folks using their imagination, in conjunction with existing gear.

I'm certain that many users can benefit from this thread, possibly in "unintended" ways.

I'm reading, and "listening" but staying damn clear of "finalizing" such a platform.

Speaking for myself, I'd very much prefer such a platform to be based on easily obtainable and inexpensive USGI items.

Either term is used. "Cape Carrier" was the official terminology long ago. The MTP poncho roll is a nice, simple affair. Check fleabay, as I've seen some from stateside sellers. I keep my MTP smock in mine. That combo goes with me for any roadtrip or bush excursion. Keeps the smock from unnecessary wear, and I can easily clip the ensemble to my battle belt suspenders so that it rides on the canteen pouches. There's enough room to add a poncho roll or sweater, in addition to the smock.

Making your own poncho roll would be a simple endeavor if one is so inclined.

I started this thread looking for info on 1 piece of kit I was interested in. We got so much information/ dialogue that I never expected. Thanks to all you contributors and browsers.

Sometimes things work out better than intended.

Most USGI stuff isn't going to work for this stuff.

However, surplus British and such items are cheap, especially for how nice they are.  And they are relatively easy to get.

That brings up another great thing.  British style smocks.   #HeartEmoji

While not necessarily USGI or inexpensive, I'm going to piece together a hybrid jungle kit. I'll be using the Jay Jay's Hippo waist belt/platform of the British PLCE and I found slightly lighter "airborne" version of the yoke or harness. These are the six strap designs that just seem more stable than the traditional Y or H harnesses. I already have some of the Velocity Systems pouches, specifically the buttpack, and most are the Helium fabric that is well suited to wet environments, being light, tough, and quite hydrophobic.

My video above shows how much better the British load-bearing kit does than our older LBE kit does at actual dynamic maneuvers. The Key is to not have the larger pouches in the front to impeded running, crouching, and crawling. Additionally, you carry it higher and onto your hips, so it's actually capable of carrying heavier loads without fatiguing your shoulders and pack. I never gave the British concept much thought until I decided to try it out.

I like the wider "Hippo" pad, but it's a little large for a hot/humid jungle environment if trapped heat is a big concern. It's still better than a larger chest rig, but I can see that being a detractor. My Jay Jay's kit isn't bad and the Hippo pad does well at draining rain and sweat without absorbing too much moisture.

Looking forward to the cooler weather in my little pseudo jungle world, at least I can pull out the Smocks collection!

ROCK6

From what I gathered from this thread, the general consensus is that while the VS jungle kit is good stuff, it is wildly overpriced. I know some of you take issue w/ the 3/4" fastex buckles on the mag pouches as well. I've seen Jay Jay's mentioned repeatedly in this thread and there seems to be great appreciation for the kit from Jay Jay's. If one were so inclined to go the Jay Jay's way instead of the VS platform, what would be the comparable product from the Jay Jay's line.  The closest I can find is
webbing/pouches/belt kit
and
yoke/harness

There is a LOT to like in the VS system but I agree it is very Gucci.

I also found this vid of a pretty slick set up based on the Alice platform. I'd love to hear your feedback on this guys set up as well

Alice belt kit

It will be interesting to see how this thread progresses, especially if those attempting this sort of "Brit-based" rig show good pix of their creations and supply some experiences pro/con after loading it up and trying out their rigs in the field.

Some links to vendors and mfrs of items that seem to work particularly well might be useful.

As far as packs go, I wonder if the MOLLE I large rucksack, with lower "Sleeping Gear" pouch detached, might serve.  IDK, but seems approx the desired dimensions, still can be found, and relatively inexpensive.

MOLLE I Seen Here with "Sleeping Gear" Pouch Attached

It appears that my YouTube searches of PLCE kit generated a video of another Brit company, Kitpimp UK.  In addition to a cool name, this video shows their take on a PLCE load out.  What I really liked i this video was the buckle types on the utility pouches.  I prefer this style (similar to what’s on Molle canteen pouches) because they can be secured one handed. Sorry I can’t hot link the video.

https://youtu.be/FLCY9-E57YA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLCY9-E57YA

I have the VS magazine pouches, and like them.  I wish they had stiffeners in them, but I can overlook that.  I think the magazine pouches are the best part of the VS kit.  Maybe the buttpack, but I don't have one.

If I was going to get a JayJay's set, I would get this:

https://www.jayjaysbrecon.co.uk/load-carriage/webbing-sets/gen-4-webbing-chameleon--multicam__2634

It has the back utility pouches sewn on, which is the best way to do it, as long as you know you like those pouches  (lighter, stronger, better shelf)  But where the magazine pouches go, it's MOLLE, so you can choose exactly what you want to put there.  

If you want a buttpack, you would want to get one of these:

https://www.jayjaysbrecon.co.uk/load-carriage/molle-webbing-belts/molle-hippo-pad-3-row--multicam__2640

And then piece together your own pouches and buttpack.  However, that's expensive.

SORD USA  (Aussie company) has their version of the british belt with MOLLE on sale for like $20.  Shipping from the USA.  It's a little different and probably not quite as nice, but it's like 1/8th the cost after factoring in shipping and it's well made.

Ahhh, that ALICE video is from Brent's channel.  He has good info.  ALICE can be made to work ok.  I started with ALICE years ago.  I still have a few rigs, but I've swapped out the harnesses and put surplus PLCE harnesses on them instead.  However, ALICE rigs don't have the big pad, and it doesn't create a solid shelf in the back to rest a pack on.  And it's not cheap like it used to be.  Back in the day I could piece together a new ALICE rig for like $30.  Magazine pouches are $12-15 each now.

I made a big post at the end of the 1st page that is probably too long.  But I put links to alot of stuff that works that you can actually get here in the USA without having to outsource overseas  (expensive shipping).  Aiming at mostly the budget / surplus side of things, not the more gucci stuff.  JayJays, Velocity Systems, Dixies Corner (brit shop), those seem to be the gucci choices.  There's a few decent british sites that sell various tactical gear items.  The problem with ordering from English companies is the shipping is horrible, and some of the sites won't give you a discount and take off the VAT taxes that they are supposed to charge people buying from the EU.

So I've put together a mini-guide on sourcing budget - mostly surplus - gear from places that are here in the USA  (I included Varustreleka because they have cheap shipping)

You can also keep an eye on ebay, but it's hard to find PLCE style stuff there.





I've heard the MOLLE I packs are crap.  I've never rocked one myself.  I started with old ALICE packs  (which actually don't suck used like this)  and now use Crossfire packs.

Coleman's Surplus have the short back PLCE rucks on sale that work well with this setup if you want to get something cheap to try.  $40.  That's a killer deal on a pack that works with this system btw.  If you like how this all works out and want a better pack, just break down and get a Crossfire brand pack.  It's worth it.  Otherwise keep your eyes open for a good ALICE pack (which are getting hard to find) and look up the few mods you can do to them to make them more comfortable  (different straps and belts and such)

https://colemans.com/british-military-plce-rucksack-dpm-camo

If anyone wants a shortcut, quick and dirty guide to seeing if they are interested in this concept at all and don't want to spend a bunch of money, go buy the following items:

1 x Harness set from BudK.  $40.
2 or 3 x Canteen pouches (with free canteen!) from Hessen Antiques.  $30 for 3.
1 x British PLCE Pack from Colemans.  $40.

$110 for a complete setup, including pack.  It won't have the inner 'hippo' pad, but it'll give you an idea if you like this concept.  You CAN get an add-on hippo pad, but they are really hard to find here in the USA.


https://www.budk.com/Great-Britain-Military-Surplus-Harness-And-Gear-Ba-49842

https://hessenantique.com/british-army-canteen-with-dpm-camo-cover-used/

https://colemans.com/british-military-plce-rucksack-dpm-camo


If you want the molle style hippo pads, you can piece together a setup for $120-150, pack not included.  I have a long (really long) post at the end of page 1 showing budget items you can get here in the USA to piece one together.

If nothing else, you will have a set of hand-out gear to give people.  And I'm pretty sure you can sell the whole setup here in the USA for as much as you put into it.  A complete set of DPM PLCE, NOT including the pack, is going for $120ish with shipping on ebay.

So someone asked for pictures.  Here's my current setup that I'm playing around with.  I've got a couple others I've used in the past, this is the one I'm piecing together now.  I have a SORD setup with all surplus utility pouches and a surplus DPM non-molle brit setup.  This is my attempt to use the buttpack, which I think works better overall.  Alot of people say utility pouches are better.  It's all personal preference.  

Sorry for the poor pics.





SORD belt, SORD harness (planning on swapping out for a JayJays or surplus PLCE harness, modified with 2 more front attachment webbing straps.  Total of 8 straps.)

Pouches, from left to right on the last picture:

Surplus frag pouch
2 x Velocity magazine pouches (the 2nd one is an IFAK with an IFAK pullout inside it)
British Osprey Surplus Utility Pouch (for canteens)
You can't see it, but I have a USGI flashbang pouch between the buttpack and the left utility pouch to hold a baofeng
Fireforce Buttpack
British Osprey Surplus Utility Pouch  (canteens)
Surplus AOR1 magazine pouch with a bladetech IWB kydex holster paracorded inside it for a Glock.
Single pistol magazine pouch on side of magazine pouch)
Velocity Magazine pouch
Surplus Flashbang pouch with tourniquet
Frag pouch

That's my crossfire pack above it.

I have about $220-240 into the belt kit.  

Awesome thread.

Hopped on ebay and snagged a new Eagle H harness, acu buttpack, 2x acu canteen, 2x abu 200rd saw, and rit dye. I have a TAG 2x2 mag pouch laying around. About $140 into the whole setup.

What ACU buttpack did you get?

You People are "forcing" me to re-examine my prejudices on gear (always painful), and also causing me to rummage amongst long-stored gear.

Seriously, I like threads like this that ask users to use their imagination and creativity.

I've always thought that threads like this, with creative and intelligent gear-users bouncing intelligent suggestions off each other might be useful to the folks at Natick.  But what do I know?

While weather is still good, I'll try to dig out some gear that will be appropriate to this thread.  Will take some time.

First good improvement for an Alice kit would be a large Hippo type belt pad.
The Eagle h harness Is far from a British jungle kit and its nuances, but it is a nice base to experiment and have a overall idea of how everything wears.

Regarding British brands, a mile from JayJays in Brecon there Is Dixies Corner. Less popular, but i think they are as good as JayJays. They make the best dump pouch ever. https://dixiescorner.co.uk/

They are located near brecon garrison, in Wales, where infantry school Is located. The mountains around are a very difficult training area, where also early SAS selection happens, the "Hills phase".

On the other hand in Colchester, where paratroopers are, there Is Dragon Supplies https://dragonsupplies.co.uk . Also Troopers Of Colchester Is there, but they only do military walk in customers. When i visited the garrison they still did mail orders, their work was like a rigger shop on steroids, not the prettiest but definitely the sturdiest.

Bottom line, all of them are tried and true and used extensively by ground pounder type infantry. I suggest atleast browsing their websites and read the items description to understand their way of working and thinking.