@marnsdorff

Put me on the list, as well, if you please.

Roger.  Tentatively 4  of 5 slots filled.

I'll start compiling a full list of features / changes I want to do and post it at some point here soon.  I'll still be fielding ideas and requests throughout the process.

I’ll get that for you tonight.

I removed the standard ALICE pockets for the larger MOLLE utility pouches.

I removed the medium ALICE lid because the rubber coating had rotted off (it smelled like Haitian prisoner feet) and replaced it.  A Large ALICE lid and something like a Mystery Ranch lid will work.

We meet again, mr. bond

Depending on cost I’d be interested.

That sort of external pouch attachment system could likely be made to work with surplus MOLLE pouches, up to MOLLE Sustainment-size pouches, or custom-made pouches.  Will need an "anchor" point above top of pouch to secure long items (machete/hatchet) on the pack so item can be slipped behind the pouches, or at least the lower 1" wide strap which would normally secure the bottoms of the pouches.

Such "long" items could also be secured to the sides of the pack, using a similar top-and-bottom webbing scheme.

What is also needed, likely on the sides of the pack, is a platform, or platforms, to attach a MOLLE or ALICE e-tool carrier or an ALICE 2-Qt flexible canteen carrier.  TT used to offer either full or lower half MOLLE webbing on one or both sides of the pack, which might do the trick.

I think there's a good niche market for this.  Lots of guys still prefer an ALICE base, and then customize it to taste.  I would also add the Large ALICE still has it's peculiar charms as well.  

We saw some development initially, as molle was ushered in, but I think ALICE was largely by-passed by other designs, starting with ILBE, and Molle I (separate sleep compartment).  Then we went on to FILBE and Molle II (or Large), not to mention SOCOM splitting off into MR and other stuff.  Some die-hards still prefer ALICE, and rightly so.  

There are many pros and cons.  

Pros:
-Still dirt cheap, if and when you can still find them
-Still work quite well
-Easily modified/upgraded
-Still loved by many vets

Cons:
-Are getting older and some dry rot issues
-Still have their drawbacks
-Can take extensive work to get up to modern stds
-Mods can get expensive, negating any value, other than sentimental

I would say this is a perfect project for a home workshop setting.  For those willing to pay for mods, you could make an excellent system for them.  Some thoughts.  Yes 430d "packcloth" or the current 500d cordura is perfectly usable for pack construction.  Sewn on pouches vs modular.  This is your choice.  I prefer modular construction these days.  But not necessarily molle.  I prefer using 1/2" webbing, sewn vertically, at say 1" intervals, and using "toggles" at the corners of your pouches.  This gives you the lighter weight of sewn on, but also more versatility.  On suspensions.  There are many after-market or surplus out there to replace the stock set up.  On frames.  I prefer an external frame.  And I think polymer is a better choice.  So a DEI frame, and your choice of suspension would be a good set up.

On Med vs Large.  Now we are getting into usage and this is what I struggle with as well.  Sometimes you want 40L, sometimes you want 55L, or 85L+.  The Med ALICE is sort of at that sweet spot, where you just need enough shit to carry you thought a short duration event.  But it really doesn't have enough room for a full sleep system or shelter.  I found myself switching to the Large ALICE most times, simply because it had the larger capacity for a decent sleep system and some kind of shelter in really shitty weather.  And/or for longer range patrols.  So there is a place for both of them, but I find the Large ALICE more useful.

RE: ALICE pack attachment to frame.  The ALICE packs have a padded "pocket" at top ventral side of pack which accepts the top of metal ALICE or plastic 1606 DEI MC/AC frames which are specifically made to fit within this pocket.  The problem with this is that padded pocket interferes with the attachment of MOLLE shoulder straps since the padded pocket obscures required attachment points on the plastic frames for the very decent GI MOLLE shoulder straps.  DECENT Aftermarket shoulder straps suitable for retrofitting to ALICE packs are quite expensive, and GI surplus shoulder straps (with the exception of the now hard-to-find "Enhanced LC-2 shoulder straps") are junk.

I'm assuming that most ALICE pack users will want some appropriate mods and reinforcements to their existing ALICE packs, AND that they already have pack frames and shoulder straps/waist belts which suit them.  This will help keep costs low, which is presumably a factor for them.

If I could start with a "clean sheet design", I'd omit the padded pocket atop the "revamped" ALICE pack, ADD suitable side and top straps on the pack which would allow it to be attached to a plastic 1603 DEI MOLLE Frame, and which would allow use of surplus MOLLE shoulder straps, AND surplus load-bearing MOLLE Waist belt.   Would also add reinforced metal loops for attachment of shoulder straps directly to pack when used without a frame, and a thin pocket for user-constructed HDPE frame sheet + closed cell foam padding sheet.  But, at that point, one might be better off with simply buying a surplus MOLLE pack ensemble.

So, back to affordable ALICE pack mods, which some folks will want.

I don't want to be repetitive, but the lack of decent and affordable shoulder straps capable of being retrofitted to the ALICE pack using either original metal frame or 1606 DEI frame, or with the Medium ALICE pack used without a frame is a problem looking for an answer.  Pix of "Enhanced LC-2 shoulder straps": HERE  

Oddly, some vendors sell either "right-side" or "left-side" pads, and many exclude the essential "mating" lower adjustment straps with appropriate metal QD hardware.  The "Enhanced LC-2 shoulder straps" are mirror images of each other.  

It should be noted that the DEI 1606 plastic frame appears capable of accepting the surplus MOLLE load-bearing waistbelt, but NO guarantee of this.  Likely will require shoulder straps with significant vertical adjustment in order to lower the pack to make proper use of the MOLLE waistbelt.  Not sure this configuration will actually work, as it may lower the pack too far.

Just some observations.  I've made some Hellcat ALICE packs on my own and using subsequent suggestions from member Enforcer.

Folks wanting to investigate the ALICE system, and perhaps modding existing ALICE items to accept MOLLE items should closely investigate this long thread: HERE

This long thread contains some "golden nuggets" which might be useful in the future.  Never can tell where a good idea will come from.  Enforcers comments and ALICE mods particularly worth examining.
@Diz  @marnsdorff

BTW, DEI has added some plastic frames to their inventory:  https://www.deigear.com/pack-frames

A more focused ALICE pack modding blog HERE

Concur with "floating" ALICE pack lid, but this would also require a "snow collar" installed.  See TT Alice pack options.

I am working on getting a webpage up and running, both for the stuff I make, but also a blog that will be a 'central clearing house' for belt kit related stuff - how tos, tips, history, theory, everything.  Including for items related to belt kit - ie, belit kit compatible packs for instance.  Including the ALICE.  

One of the things I'm wanting to do as part of that, is to do walkthrough on sewing either your own kit, or modding your kit via sewing.  The actual technical walk-throughs.  IE, this is how you do the binding tape, etc.  And eventually offer packages of raw materials for someone to do these things - ie, here's a package with all the materials you need and a pattern to make a base belt kit.  Or a buttpack.  And the same for modding popular packs - ie, here's all the materials you need to swap out the straps on your ALICE pack.  Or convert your lid to a floating lid.  etc.

I will definitely be adding some kind of anchor system and straps to hang stuff from, especially above the pass-through pocket openings.  I'm THINKING since I'm going to be running MOLLE around the pack above the pockets, instead of the old ALICE attachments, that I can fab up some straps that tie into the MOLLE columns that are above the pouches that you can throw on there if needed to act like as anchors and / or hanging straps.  

I'm planning on doing the MOLLE webbing on the sides.

I'm looking at $200-250.  Depending on what all is done.  

This would be for the first run of 5 packs, 4 slots of which have been claimed already.  After that the price will probably go up a bit.  I'm mostly wanting to get my patterning and prototyping and the frames and such I'll end up buying paid for with this first run.

This is also a possibility if someone wants MOLLE across the pack instead of the 3 standard pockets.  This may affect the price a bit, but it wouldn't be hard to implement.  Eventually I see this being a standard option to choose from.  Though personally I like sewn on pouches better.

I absolutely plan on making this setup compatible with all of the pack frames I can - at the least, the stock ALICE frame (which would also include the TT frame), the 1606 and 1609 DEI frames (and possibly the 1603 frame), and the Crossfire frame system.  This will also make it compatible with other frames out there.  If anyone wants to send me one of the other frames to make sure it fits, I'll gladly add it to the list (and send you your frame back with your finished pack).

I am also going to be adding straps to the pack itself, in case you had to run the shoulder straps directly to the pack and not the frame for some reason.

The 1609 and 1606 frames will run the MOLLE belt btw.  I have one on a 1609 that on my turkish alice pack.

Good point on the pocket for the HDPE sheet.  Though most of the frames make that not needed.  Let me ponder on that.  

I'm eventually going to do my own attempt at ALICE straps, since Fireforce closed down and TT seems sold out all the time.  Possibly the same with the belt.  But right now I'm just concentrating on the pack, I don't have the ability to multitask all this design and testing stuff and not make stuff to sell too.  When it comes around to making my own straps and such, I'll be hitting up the hive mind again for ideas.  

(Another good option for straps for the smaller packs like the Medium ALICE is the Hill People Gear harness.  That's a popular mod for the medium ALICE packs in the bushcraft community.)

But yea, I fully intend on making these packs as compatible with all the major frames being used.  I'm HOPING to be able to get a limited number of Crossfire framesets to offer to go with the packs.  

If this works out and there is demand for it, my next pack project might be a modernized version of the British NI Patrol Pack meets a Medium ALICE meets a becker patrol pack.  Kinda an  'modernized Medium ALICE with a simple internal frame stay suspension'  I've been throwing that idea around as I kinda want one for myself too.

Kinda bringing the oldschool gear designs into the modern world.  Since it looks like everyone is ramping up for a real near peer war, modern versions of some of this stuff might end up being useful again.

100% adding a snow collar, that's one of the first mods I added onto the list.  

I looked at the TT mods, I'm probably going to be doing most or all of those.  Most of them were already on the list.

DEI 1603 "MOLLE" frame is not suitable for use with ALICE packs.  DEI 1606 MC/AC frames were made to be mated with ALICE packs.  1603 MOLLE frame must be so extensively modified to fit an ALICE pack that a 1606 frame is easier/cheaper to use.  I'm not sure that overall top structure of 1603 frame, modified to suit an ALICE pack, will be structurally sound.

At some point, one must either adopt a modded ALICE pack, OR simply move onwards to a MOLLE pack or something similar.  Such "newer" packs having far better shoulder straps and load-bearing waist belts than the ALICE packs.

Believe me, I've tried out most of the alternatives to the ALICE pack.

Yea I have a 1603, I don't think it's going to work.  I'm going to play around with the idea though.  Those 1603 frames also have a habit of breaking easily.  The 1606 / 1609 are far better about that.

The ultimate answer, of course, will be to just get a Crossfire frameset.  That fixes most of the problems.

Earlier (usually black MOLLE 1) GI versions of MOLLE frames had a bad rep for good reasons.  Mostly bad plastic and inadequate design.  Later frames are usually OK.  I had to look long and hard to find a black MOLLE 1 frame with interlocking frame "platform" which mated to unique MOLLE 1 waistbelt.  Hey, I'm a "collector", so call me crazy.

Any frames made by DEI which are embossed as "1603" version frames should be fully GTG.  Any (usually black) frames which have lower back "features" which are designed to mate with original MOLLE version of waist belt are uncommon and possibly collectors' items, along with matching waist belts. Ask me how I know.

IMHO, the "modern" iteration of the "Jungle Belt" which allows a suitable pack to "rest" atop the load-bearing waist belt is a modern version of the failed MOLLE I concept, and if properly done, has a great deal to recommend it.

Sometimes taking a look back at past failed items can suggest a useful way forward.

Yup, that's how you make advancements in stuff.  Work out the issues in failed attempts at things.

Just so.  Original MOLLE pack/FLC system was FAR too complex and required a "buddy" to enable user to don his full MOLLE pack.  UNSAT.

Now, we are dealing with a far better concept:  The load-bearing waist belt, with decent low-pro shoulder harness, OVER which a suitable pack can be worn, and which pack "sits" on the load-bearing waistbelt for additional support.

What is old is new again.

I always thought the original MOLLE concept had some merit, but it was poorly done.  Now, I see a viable way forward.

Looks like right at 4”

Attached File

The FLC vest itself wasn't BAD....for what it is.  Not my first choice by far, but it wasn't BAD.  

The rest - other than some of the pouches being decent pouches - had issues.  The system as a whole didn't integrate very well at all.

OOf.  I MIGHT be able to squeeze 3 columns of molle in there.  You generally need 4.5".  I can probably make it fit, tucking the end seams under the pocket and the pack seam on the other side.

I think I see a way forward, possibly using existing Molle pouches, looking at joeviturbo's #5 post above.

The ruck in general was what sucked about the MOLLE system.  

The FLC wasn't horrible.  And some of the pouches were solidly thought out for generic military issue pouches (though the velcro only mag pouch closures make me cringe)

Some of the pouches were downright decent.  The canteen pouch for instance.  The MOLLE buttpack, while it sucks as a buttpack, is a pretty decent general purpose pouch that fills alot of odd roles.  I have a number of them and they fill a half dozen different roles.

You could simply add a 1/2 inch of material in to get the requisite 4 1/2 inches needed for the molle.  And with that extra 1/2 on space, add the slip pocket for a frame sheet.  It’s always been my opinion that the frame isn’t needed as often for the load you carry in a Medium Alice. A simple frame sheet would make it very functional.  Plus it gives you the option for using a frame or just the frame sheet.

Yea I'll take a look at that.  I'll put a 3rd row of MOLLE in there one way or the other.

If you're putting MOLLE on there, are you sizing it for particular pouches, or just evenly spaced?

Could the end user use (for example) canteen pouches, then swap to SAW pouches, then swap to sustainment pouches?  

Molle(technically PALS) is standard sized. Columns have a width sewed at 1 1/2 inches. Rows are spaced 1 inch apart.  Plug and play with what ever pouches you want.

Yeah, I know.  But he doesn't have to make it all 3 rows, or whatever, in the available space.

I guess a better way to ask is, will he be using a standard MOLLE (fine, PALS) layout, or just attachment points placed for pre-planned pouch attachment?

Point taken.  My guess is to put a field of molle three columns wide and as many rows fit.  That’s what I would do.

Yes, I am planning on standard MOLLE spacing for all the MOLLE.  THOUGH....for those side panels, where I'm going to be squeezing 3 x columns of MOLLE into a smaller area, I might have to make the columns SLIGHTLY - like 1/16 to 1/8" - smaller to accommodate the size available.  I do not know yet, that's going to be part of the design and prototyping, and I'm going to try my best to keep this as OG Medium ALICE as possible, though I might end up doing something like moving the pockets over 1/4" towards the center and cut 1/8" off of each of the outer 2 MOLLE columns, which would give me that extra half inch.  

However, I WILL make sure that you will be able to squeeze regular molle through whatever I put on there.  So yes, you will be able to swap out whatever MOLLE pouches you want.  That is the end goal - otherwise MOLLE is kinda dumb to put there.

On a side note, I FULLY intend to make this pack a Medium ALICE - something that people who see it will say  'that's definitely a Medium ALICE' - but fixing all the easily fixed flaws, reinforcing stuff, modernizing things, adding things like rain / snow collar, etc.  IE, do what Tactical Tailor did for the MALICE for the Medium ALICE.  I'd be tempted to call it the 'Son of MALICE', because that's a cool name and ya know.  But Tactical Tailor would probably get pissy about it.  

@marnsdorff after all reading I think @Diz makes a good point of making the sides a full molle field so you can swap to your preference of pouch & use.  

For molle on the bottom I personally would prefer 4-6 Evenly spaced rows left to right but running front to provide strap options.

Also, you think the the HPG harness would work with something like this?  I love their wide but flat shoulder straps.

https://hillpeoplegear.com/Products/CategoryID/6/ProductID/13

Yes, I'm planning on doing a full molle field on the sides, some of the discussion has been how to get 3 full columns of MOLLE in that space, which is the goal.  (Of course, on my copy, I'm just going to sew on some pockets, but I know exactly what I want, but the MOLLE field seems the best bet for the 'standard option')

Yea I'm thinking the same for the bottom panel.  Once I can play with the pack and see what can fit on there, I'll get back to the hive and throw some idea out there.

I've mentioned the HPG harness above somewhere I think.  That harness is a popular mod for medium alice packs in the bushcraft / backpacking world.  Their harnesses excel when the pack isn't SUPER heavy, and I think it would make a solid choice for the medium ALICE.  I'm probably going to come up with my own variation of it, at least for myself.  I don't want to stomp on their product and just copy it, I LOVE HPG and have a bunch of their stuff and post on their forums and social media groups alot.  It's a good company all around.  But I eventually want to offer turn-key packages for people after this first run.  I WANT to offer a full Crossfire frame set and a stripped down option with a 1606 or 1609 frame choice, a surplus or surplus style belt, and a HPG style harness.  Maybe I can make a deal to stock the HPG harnesses or something, I dunno.  I think those two options are the best options out there.  And someone can always mix-and match stuff on their own.  That's stuff to address down the road.  But it gives you an idea of what I want to do.

Ask first.

And if they like, they can by the rights to it.

Oh yea, I'd ask first.  Thus why I said I was tempted   :-D

Or how about MA for Marnsdorff ALICE.  

At some point, TT may re-start their MALICE pack mods some of which they would perform on user-sent ALICE packs.

Particularly if they get a notion that other folks are doing such things, and there is a buck to be made.

I'd steer clear of any sort of wording that had even a whiff of their MALICE pack name.

@marnsdorff

See here for link to old FMCO/Antipersonnel catalog of items:  Catalog

Might find some inspiration there.

So, the picture below is where it all went wrong.  Essentially the spacing is off, the MOLLE loops are very loose, and she didn't wrap it around the sides like I asked her to do.  Again, not that mad since the lady is like in her early 70's, probably never saw MOLLE webbing in her entire life, and I think everything I told her and my diagram just went way over her head.  

Attached File


What I wantd were attachment points in that area above the three main pouches similar to the position of the ALICE webbing on the ALICE Medium pack.

Attached File


She did a fair job at adding the lashing points at the bottom of the pack for securing to the frame, which is something that the stock Recon Ruck lacks.

Attached File


She also did a fair job at adding the webbing on the bottom of the pack that I wanted.

Attached File

Again, pretty much I'm just trying to do something along the lines of what this Marine did to his old ALICE pack only using the 1000D Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra pack instead of a legacy ALICE.



I don't need a pack large enough for shelter or for a winter sleeping bag.  I'm looking for a pack for maybe two overnights and that's about it (Friday and Saturday nights) with sort of bare bones packout load.  So, I don't need something as large as a Large ALICE pack and that 35-45L range really good for what I'm looking for.  

If I can't get a version of a medium MALICE than I'll probably try out the Crossfire CF2, but it's not cheap and so if I could still get my Spec Ops Recon Ruck up to snuff I'd be a very happy camper (literally and figuratively).  

Oh, yea.  People don't understand the nuances of MOLLE unless you really explain in detail, with examples in hand to let them look at and play with, both the field and the pouches.  And exact measurements.  Otherwise they think of them as loops to hang stuff off of, etc.

I've been teaching my mother the specifics of sewing tactical gear - I'm bringing her on as a 2nd person to sew my gear eventually.  Right now she's helping me with cutting fabric and such.  She can sew clothing and stuff well, but the nuances of tactical gear is foreign to her.  I had to pull out pouches and show her how the molle works, how it connects, etc. before she understood why it's done that way.  Same thing with various other little things here and there.

What kind of stitching did she do to the MOLLE?  Is it bartacked?  If it's regular stitching, is it straight or zig-zag?  How many passes?  (trying to figure out how hard it will be to fix it for you)

Did she reinforce the bottom lashing webbing where it attached to the pack?  What kind of thread did she use?  (curious about how a seamstress would approach that)

Well, I'm going to do that run of medium alice packs after I finish this current run of belt kits and a couple buttpacks I still need to do.  I'm almost done with the 2  buttpacks.  I've also got to do a couple 40 round pmag ammo pouches to finish up that project, but that won't take long.  I'm going to be putting together my thoughts and intended mods and posting them here in the next few days probably.  Start getting together what exactly each of you guys that wanted one wants, colors and such.  Start gathering the stuff I need.  Already ordered a couple things I know I'll need.

Oh yea, FMCO.  If they were still around, I wouldn't have started sewing and just ordered some stuff from them.

I'm glad I went the sewing route, I think the stuff I've gotten into is better than them.  But yea, I'll look at their stuff again.

ANY and ALL "Sew-Throughs" on common pack fabrics (which usually have Polyurethane sprayed into inner side of fabric) WILL, repeat WILL introduce water leakage points at the "Sew-Throughs".  This is inevitable, unless "additional" measures are taken.

In my personally "tested" experience, the only way to reduce such water ingress via PALS-induced "Sew-throughs" is to "paint" both sides of any such "Sew-Throughs" with common "tent-seal" chems, and to also apply DWR to the top surfaces of the fabrics.  This is a laborious but inexpensive process, as it always involves turning the item inside-out for best application of the "tent-sealing" chems to the inside of the item.

I've done before-and-after testing on MOLLE/PALS items.  The "treated" items stood up well to a garden hose directly sprayed on them, compared to "untreated" items.

I've done before-and-after tests with Gen I ECWCS rain garments as well.  Most of the Gen 1 ECWCS rain garments were made with inadequate taping of sew-throughs.  Once remediated, using abovementioned "tent-seal" method they work fine.  Same as pack cloth.  Posted about all this many times, in various forums here.

There IS a solution to such problems, but US Mil does not require it.  Later Gen ECWCS garments included taped seams, which solved the problem.

Anyone can "rainproof" their packs, or Gen 1 ECWCS garments.  Simple and relatively inexpensive to do but takes some painstaking effort.

Yeah, no telling if some ideas or inspiration will come of looking at their products.

I gave her T-70 bonded nylon thread. I had asked her to bartack the MOLLE (included that in my written instructions as well), but it looks like she just did regular stitch with about two passes on everything. I gave her the T-70 because my understanding is that it can be used with most common needles.  Looks like she did maybe three passes on the bottom lashing.  It's honestly a pretty poor job overall and I doubt it will hold up long in its current state.

Looking back on it, the lady looked like a deer in headlights when I went into her shop and I should have just walked out. Sadly, I literally had no other options in this area and so I rolled the dice.  

@Marnsdorff

I highly suggest you do not reduce the dimensions of the molle webbing.  Ask me how I know.

If the measured spacing on an Alice pack is 4 inches there, I would suggest adding in the extra  1/2 inch of fabric.  I highly doubt anyone would notice the extra fabric making it ever so slightly bigger.