No, you use greese on m1's because otherwise it'll run out. Grease stays, and will stay when exposed to rain. The m1 action is very open, and its easy for oil t eventually get wiped, washed, or simply pool away from where it needs to be.

I own 2 garands and 3 m1 carbines, and my dad oned several mini 14's. Those minis sucked.

There's no need to modify the mini to make it slightly better when the entirety of the nation has decided that the AR15 is better.

The safety still requires a finger inside the trigger guard.

I think its funny you compare the barrel to upper fitment to the m1 style of lockup. You do understand that you aren't revoving the barrel from the upper to preform basic maintenance on the ar15, right?


The ar15 is totally superior. In every single way. You don't have to try and "fix" it. It's the single most popular firearm in the US. Bar none.

So you still go furter with an ar.

Yes, I've used those mags, along with FN mags, HK mags, and elanders. They all suck compared to Aluminum and polymer mags

Why make new guns when the defacto standard exists and is familiar?

Hk also felt an external gas piston was needed, but it wasn't. Do you have data that shows the M16 cannot pass a drop test, or do you feel that since HK does it differently then they are correct?

What issues did you have with the Global Ordnance mags?  Why do they suck?  My favorite mags to use in the AR-15 are the PMAG, but I keep a few others around for diversity.  

I'm not going to look for data to see whether an AR is drop safe.  It has a floating firing pin and no firing pin block.  It's obvious.

I don't think HK's piston was a bad idea considering they were aiming mostly for full auto, short barrel, suppressed use.

I don't think I would agree with that statement.  They are so different that you can't really consider one to be superior in every single way.  I think the Mini-14 (with the improvements I mentioned) has a lot of advantages in this application.

Steel mags are heavy, less rust resistant, and the walls are too thin to take advantage of the steel construction.

The ar15 has an aluminum firing pin. It's extremely light. So if it were unsafe, we'd know about it given the 60+ years of combat It's seen.

A piston actually makes for a harder gun to set up for suppressed FA use. The 416 had a pretty hard time with ROF increases when suppressed.




But it doesn't. Your "improvements" are purely theoretical and aren't guaranteed to actually end up with a functional firearm, much less a firearm that is any better than something that has ben tested over and over again, in every condition across the globe for decades on end, and has already been accepted by the population at large

AR15. End of the thread.

The AR is becoming the standard even in EU…

Steel mags are heavier and dent easier than aluminum usgi mags. PMAGs are great. So are USGI aluminum mags. And mags are a finite use item meant to be replaced when they wear out.

The friend who broke a D&H mag from over exuberant insertion and who can’t install mlok accessories sounds like a bit of a mechanical nincompoop. I have a few such friends, all of whom are great shooters but lousy mechanically.

1913 rails are easier to use for the less mechanically inclined and are still a viable option. In many ways I prefer them over mlok and have a few rifles set up with 1913 rails. A CD rifle could be setup with a 1913 railed handguard to simplify things, while still being capable of accessorizing.

Our 22 year experience in the GWOT has shown us that the inline gas M4 carbine is the gold standard of 5.56mm fighting rifles. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, especially not in the form of a mini14. We are not a third world peasant fighting force and should not dumb down the rifle or its accessories.


A civil defense force will require some institutional knowledge and armorer level support to be effective. It would also be most effective with appropriate kit to fight at night, fight at distance, both of which require more complex optics and accessories such that training is a necessity. I think of it akin to a State national guard, where there is mandatory training at certain intervals throughout the year. And since we are white boarding, I want training to involve only those things that make for the best and most effective combat readiness. No DEI, no gender identity, nothing other than marksmanship, unit tactics, training in scenarios where the CD is activated. Add in a monthly ammunition stipend/supply for personal training to include shooting 2-gun, night vision matches, etc.

As a comprehensive CD kit, I propose:
-LMT MARS-L with 1913 Specwar upper, 14.5” chrome lined barrel.
-Magpul M3 PMAGs.
-NF NX8 1-8 with a Euro diopter adjustment (we are dreaming, let’s dream big).
-Hux Flow 556k suppressor.
-Magpul MIAD grip.
-Magpul MOE SL stock.
-Ergo ladder type rail covers.
-Blueforcegear VCAS sling.
-Arisaka 18650 light body with Malkoff E2XTL, Unity AXON switch.
-Wilcox RAID Xe full power laser*
-Glock 45 optic cut with Aimpoint ACRO or Trijicon RMR HD.
-L3 1531 white phos BNVD on a G24 mount, on a lightweight ballistic helmet*
-Trijicon Skeet-IR thermal*
-Plate carrier with level IV plates.
-Crye LVS level IIIA vest.
-SKD PIG gloves.
-Raptor Mk4 belt with double m4 mag and double pistol mag pouches, dump pouch, IFAK.
-Safariland 6395 holster for Glock 45
-Cleaning kit, lens pens, etc
-Comms


*The electro optics and laser would be an option after being certified with a certain number of hours of training in use, care, etc, passing a written test to show the end user has the mental capacity to use and care for them. Or they could be kept at a CD armory to be drawn in the event they are needed.

Would also want weaponized and surveillance drones, anti-drone defense, Carl Gs, mortars, M240, M249/mk46. All can be kept in the CD armory to be drawn in the event of need. Better yet, since we are dreaming, let’s assume the 34 NFA, 68 GCA, and 922(o) were ruled unconstitutional and the 240, 249/mk46 can be bought at retail like any other firearm.

If i had to guess (not having a beretta mag in front of me) the issue with 77gr ammo may be due to a possible difference in thickness eating up the alreadly limited OAL room inside the AR magazine.

You don't have a ton of room to work with to make an AR mag as durable as an AK magazine.

It wouldn't be too hard to tell every shop to make 3 different versions going forward. M16a4, M4/M4a1, and Mk18mod0 should be able to cover everything.

Maybe have some M4* or Mk18* versions to use up some of the non standard barrel lengths lik 16", 11.5's, etc

Agreed on all points, however the firing pin is not aluminum. It is chrome plated steel.

M1 Carbine!

If the goal is civil defense the most common weapon should be made available. Standard issue M-4s are available from military sources. Just increase the number bought each fiscal year and sell the older ones at cost to American citizens. It's the Civilian Marksmanship Program without waiting for the weapons to be superseded by a new type in government service.

From the CMP right now, the “most common weapon” available is an M1 Garand   - chambered in either .30-06 or .308.

Owning a .308 M1 these days makes a lotta sense since it’s still 50-states legal. Plus you can get ammo for it anywhere.

There isn't really a downside to 1:7" twist rate.

Each fighter issued an M4A1 w/WML, irons and sling, 2x bandolier of 6x mags, 1 IFAK, 1 pack with 3 days of rations, h20 filter and tabs, and super basic comms.

I wouldn't give them a light, they'll just get themselves killed with it, use it to take a shit and muzzle sweep and ND someone with it, or let it run out of batteries and never replace them.

Mags are a go.  Bandoliers or chest rig with fastex buckles so they don't lose the mags.

Really basic IFAK.  Like, "don't worry about it, look at this first aid kit you've got, don't be scared to fight", IFAK.  Basically a comfort blanket of an IFAK.

Small pack so they don't try and pack the kitchen sink.

I'd provide 2x 2q and 2x 1q canteens with the tabs glued to the thing so they can't lose them.  No filter, they'll just lose it or break it.

No comms.  They'd just get RDF and killed, lose it, have no opsec and get killed, or let the batteries run out and never replace them.

A1 style irons to remove the attractive nuisance of an A2 elevation dial so they don't fuck with that.

We'll start the "getting themselves killed" bit at "handing them a rifle"

You're going to need some at the very least, some basic level of training to ensure they don't dump a mag into their buddy or themselves immediately upon getting a rifle

lol, very true.

Hmm. I’m sure not all steel mags are created equal, but I could hammer my USGI aluminum mags into sheet metal with my Korean steelies or the inserts in my Lancers. Guessing maybe some supplier doesn’t heat treat theirs or sent out a bad batch maybe?

They are heavy though.

Agreed. The GO Korean steel mags are built like a brick shithouse.

The HK steel mags are about the only truly proven steel AR mag and the springs are well known to be weak and easily become too weak over time, causing failure to strip/feed. And they are known to dent.

Even properly heat treated steel mags will be more prone to denting if dropped than USGI aluminum mags.

I wouldn’t own Korean or any other fully steel AR mags. Well, I take that back. I have a couple steel HK mags and half a dozen pre-94 Sterling/UK made mags for the SA80 turd burgle. They are all just stored at this point, as I shoot pmags and usgi aluminum mags.

I do prefer steel SR25 mags from KAC and Larue. They are excellent. But I baby them and beat on pmag 20LRs.

This. There's precious little room to work with to let you get AK mag levels of durability.

It’s a matter of physics.

An issue with FMJ bullets is how they are made, with an open base with exposed lead that isn’t as consistent.  The end result is the center of mass and center of form of the bullet are not on the same axis.  In the bore, the bullet rotates around the center of form, but after it exits the muzzle it has to rotate around the center of mass.  As the bullet transitions from one to the other the bullet wobbles and that wobble results in yaw, which results in precession which moves the bullet off track.  The greater the rotational velocity the greater the precession and the greater the impact on accuracy.

Now…if you blast away with an M4gery at close ranges it’s not a big deal.  But if you want to engage targets accurately at 200-300 yards, it’s a problem.

To put that in perspective, I have a Colt SP1 as well as a Colt M16A1 upper on an NDS lower, both with the standard Colt 20” 1:12 twist barrels.   Both will shoot consistent 5 shot 1 MOA groups at 100 yards with Hornady 55 gr FMJ BT bullets at M193 velocities.   By FMJ standards the Hornady bullets are very consistent.  I’ll get similar accuracy with those those bullets in my 1:9” Varmint AR and my 1:8” match AR.  They’ll even do ok out of a 1:7” M4gery.

However, if I am using a bulk 55 gr FMJ or even a bulk SP (Remington Winchester, etc) the accuracy really starts to fall off as the twist rate increases.


The advantage of the combination of 20” barrel and 55 gr bullet was high velocity and a comparatively long range at which the bullet would fragment or at least tumble.  Those fragmentation and tumbling ranges were reduced with the 62 grain SS109 projectile and then further reduced with the 14.7” barrel.  That bullet, with its FMJ construction, lead core and steel penetrator is also even less consistent and even more prone to accuracy issues.  

Those issues were aggravated by the use of a 1:7” twist rate when 1:9” twist was actually optimum for it.  The sole reason 1:7” twist was adopted was to stabilize the much longer M856 tracer bullet sufficiently to meet a long range penetration requirement. When is the last time you fired M856, let alone at a long range target where penetration mattered?

That minimal (non existent) gain comes at the cost of accuracy with inexpensive 55 gr FMJ ammunition.

There’s a reason that 1:9 twist is the norm for AR-15s with the exception of certain match and Varmint rifles where longer, heavier bullets in the 68 plus grain range are going to be used.

Agreed. keep it light, keep it simple and eliminate all the tacticool crap that isn’t needed 95% of the time even for regular troops, and even less for militia troops.

This. Standardize on what the military already uses.

I don't even care for ARs all that much but they really are the best.  My go-to rifle is my CZ Bren 2 but I can't get many parts for it, so I keep an AR around as my backup because I can get anything I need for it.

The M4A1 would be best. Three generations of Americans can operate it.

One could make an argument for semi-auto only for ammo conservation, but that is so 1880s, 1890s U.S. Army.

If you can't make 10 out of 10 body/torso hits with a properly zeroed to you, M4/AR with a 14.5 inch barrel, you probably have no business shooting and scooting.

Unless, you are the distraction.

Attached File

Steel is tougher than aluminum, if made from proper materials with proper treating. Unfortunately SA80 preban mags are known to be made of pot metal. I’ve never heard about the HK’s bulging but they have a less than stellar record regardless. I could definitely empathize with you having a sour taste after those.

The Korean mags are TDP spec USGI mag pattern but made from steel. The feedlips don’t bend from concrete drops. They are heavy but they’re pretty much made of stone. I admittedly only bought them for decades from now in case the plastic mags start degrading. They take all USGI internals but I did get 2 that wouldn’t drop free out of 40. Global sent replacements and told me to keep the bad ones.

Magazines are available and reliable.

There is no reason to reinvent the wheel.

Interesting approach. Are you using all 60’s production 20 round magazines?

I’ve been shooting for over 20 years. We’re on what, the third generation of USGI updates in that time. Third generation of PMAG’s. Third generation of HK mags.

I think the Lancer is the longest running generation of any modern AR mag and it’s only a little over 10 years old. Even the small ones like Amend, Hex, ETS, etc have had multiple updates. Literally everyone is reinventing the wheel due to design flaws and product improvements and I appreciate that.

USGI 30 round mags work.

Magpul mags work.

I am sure lots of other magazines work just fine.

Most Magpul M1 mags don’t work anymore. I’ve had my M2 mags start breaking. I’m being told that the M3 is perfect and the best mag ever made, just like I was told with the M1 and M2 that either all failed, or have started failing with age.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You can never have too many mags and there’s no such thing as too many good options.

M41A1



10 millimeter explosive-tip caseless. Standard light armor piercing round...

To deal with the Aliens ...  

All kidding aside - it would have to be a M-4 (or variant) as it is light, adjustable for different body sizes & types, effective in capacity & terminal effectiveness.



Bigger_Hammer

Nah, Bro. If you're gonna do it, DO EET! Go Big.

TitanII W53 RV. Nine megatons of F_U LOL

That is all true. Though I have dozens of m1 and m2 mags in rotation that have had no problems. But feedlip spreading is definitely a concern. Thats why I have ample USGI aluminum mags. And ample Magpul mags that are sitting new and not in the rotation.

I really like the Lancers in concept and need to pick some up.

Sounds like you found a downside to inconsistent ammo, not to the faster twist. If the bullet is consistent, any practical twist rate faster than the minimum needed to stabilize it will work well. Crap ammo leads to worse results through increased dispersion to be sure. Plenty of people, myself included, have excellent results from 55gr ammo through 1:7" barrels. If you don't, use better ammo.

I'm quite aware of the dispersion issues re: xm193 and xm855. Your scenario of longer range precision fire is not a match for either. Not sure why that would be issued anyways since .gov doesn't issue it anymore so it really isn't pertinent to this discussion.

Litz has expounded on this in the past as well, as has Molon here on this site. His default accuracy load is light bullet, frequently fired through faster twists.

Here is an article on dispersion due to imbalanced projectiles from Lilja.

Botach (I know, I know) has 10 Lancers for $110 right now. They store better than PMAG’s, fit pouches better, and are still insanely tough. I buy whatever good mags are cheap but if I had to only pick one I’d go Lancer I guess. Good mags and the one time I’ve needed it their customer service went crazy above and beyond.

I had three or four M1’s swapped out by Magpul due to breaking. I’ve had 2 or 3 M2 break at the spine too. One spit rounds with any light bumping.

Magpul customer service is dead. As in they literally don’t service broken products anymore it seems, so I tossed my broken M2’s and won’t buy more. (I have two unanswered requests dating back a year in one case and there’s a topic in their forum running right now where multiple others have the same problem.)

Now that I think about it, I might not buy anymore Magpul stuff.

ONLY one builder of rifle and bolts break.  Break a bolt and it has to go back to Ruger.  Everyone makes AR parts.

Issue a standard M4 or M4A1 MWS (flat top/RAS handguards), standard USGI 30 rd aluminum mags with 2-3 bandoleers of ammo (120 rds ea).  No need for any other bandoleer as all you need to do after loading up those mags is pull the white string and put loaded mags back in.
Attached File

Attached File


Skip the HK High Reliability Mags as they aren't.  They failed in Iraq.  FN Mk16 SCAR steel mags do work but I still prefer USGI aluminum.  Never had issues with any black, green, tan or blue followers.  What 3,120 rds loaded looks like.
Attached File


Had a reserve unit leaving Iraq in 04' give me 40,000 rds 5.56mm loaded in 30 rd mags. (over 1300 mags).  You CAN cram 31 rounds into a AR/M16 mag. As many were. Then during insertion into magwell IF the bolt is close, the mag now no longer has room to compress that top round.  Thats where failures to lock acquire and fall out.  Load only 30 rds and have that little compression left.

This. The M4 in MWS configuration, Matech rear sight, simple sling. Not very imaginative but it is simple and works. Parts are everywhere, it is ready for optics, lights, whatever you need or want. I can’t believe anyone thinks the Mini-14 is a good idea. It is a terrible rifle and I’d argue that a basic M4 is just as light and handy as a mini-14. Even the 20” A1 is light and handy. Plus M193 out of a 20” barrel will vibe check a lot of the cheap armor on the market.

Don't think a Mini-14 is going to able to do this.  I've also tortured tested M4A1s with 1000 rds of full auto in a day without issues.

A simple semi auto only version of the M4 would be fine for such a purpose. The 14.5" is jack of all trades master of none.


A red dot, light and a sling and a yearly qualification to check zero and teach simple tactics would be a very strong base to build a defensive force from.


If the NFA or something similar got in the way of the 14.5 then jumping to a 16" would be fine as well. No point is getting too hung up on CQB. That's sexy and fun to train for, but it kind of sucks to do for real.

Anything in 10mm

1911
2011
Glonk 20/29/40
S&W 10xx/40xx
CMMG RDB
HK MP5/10

Germany's national past time is making shit needlessly complicated.

Cost vs performance makes the PSA Freedom a no brainer. Even as a civil defense type of gun, 5,000 rounds of life for $400 would work fine. Even if you did some basic style training with the rifle and put 1,000 rounds down range in training, that would still give you plenty of rifle life.

I would say a 12 gauge shotgun. Normally I’d say an AR-15 or variant of but the simplistic design of a pump gun and its durability makes more sense.

Most shotguns are NOT going to go the distance in round count and is even harder to shoot well.  Range is another very limiting factor for a Civil Defense Weapon where they would have larger distance to defend.  Think guarding beaches, harbors, large open areas and long stretches of railroad tracks.  Also easier for large number of attackers.