Good enough, provide the bullets, mag carrier / first aid kit.
Citizen chooses his firearm, and meets and interacts / trains with neighbors, who he will be fighting beside. local support / training network.
NG for training / logistics, sheriff Civil control.

Gov issue ammo, mag carrier, First aid. Firearm and everything else by citizen, monthly training made available, first aid, tactics, civil, military , etc.
Annual demonstration of safe use of your firearms, for ammo issue. ( range time, not qualification but "don't shoot your friends" demo).
Bolt action, mini 14, HK, AR, don't matter have a gun and ammo and willing to defend your neighborhood / way of life.

It's unfortunate that this won't be possible in the USA at the present time because approximately 50% of the adult population is a crackhead of some kind (weed, alcohol, meth, fentanyl, actual crack, libtard, whatever I just throw them in the crackhead category).  It's a great concept though.  I talked to a guy from the Philippines one time.  He said they basically had a militia setup just like you described, except it was with government-issued M1 Garands.  The idea was to repel a Chinese invasion.

Damn bro! You know alot, huh?

Every complaint you have is literally 10x worse on a mini. By the time you fix thise issues, you'd have something that looks more like an LWRC ar15

There's no such thing as gas ring maintenance. The rear sight is no more or less complicated than a m1 style rear sight. I'm sure its much more user friendly to lock the bolt open on a mini, where the hold open isn't even on the same side as the charging handle. Ar15's are not DI.

The Swiss government makes a yearly holiday out of range time/ qualification.

If you were serious about civil defense, fighting age males would get:

An AR

A Javelin

A claymore

2 frag grenades

1 smoke

Armor

Helmet

Nods

Offer current issue firearms, optics, etc at gov price to citizens and make the purchase 100% tax deductible.

I probably couldn’t afford one at “government price”.  

By the time they build in all the support, spares, etc, plus the profit in the “best value” contract, the per unit cost for the firearm is a lot more than It would cost me from a local gun shop.

Seriously?

AR-15s do have gas rings that wear and on occasion break. The AR-15 also uses a direct gas impingement design that deposits carbon on the rear of the bolt that must be periodically removed.  They also have a gas tube with a history (in the distant past) of fouling due to excessive amounts of stabilizers in the original mass production powder specification.

It has always been a design with tight tolerances that is very sensitive to dirt or sand in the upper receiver where it can impede the motion of the bolt carrier.

—-

I’ve shooting semi auto and full auto firearms for almost years, since I was first issued an M16A1.   I own eight AR-15s in various configurations as well as a 5.56x45 Galil, an AR-180B, a M1A, a BM-59, an M1, a few M1 carbines, an MP5, and three Mini 14s. Over the years I have also owned an HK-91, a few FALs, a couple SKS rifles, a couple AKM clones, a PSL, another M1A, a couple more AR-15s and a couple more M1 Garands.

If I were going to have to take a 5.56x45 rifle into combat, my choice would be the Galil.  It’s not as accurate as an M16A1 but it’s vastly more reliable.  It’s heavy, but the 18” barrel is also the sweet spot for 5.56x45.  With M193 it’s much more ballistically efficient and has better terminal ballistics than an M4 with M855.

But, if it were not available, I’d actually choose a Mini 14 before I chose an AR-15.  Again, it’s a reliability issue.  Like the M1 Garand, M14/M1A and the BM-59, it’s loose tolerances between bolt and receiver make it much more tolerant of sand and dirt than the AR-15.

The Mini 14 also uses a short stroke gas tappet system that is a cross between the M1 carbine operating rod and the FAL gas pipe, that requires virtually zero maintenance other than wiping or brushing powder residue off the gas pipe when you clean it.

The contemporary M16 with contemporary ammunition suffers from none of the issues you are raising.

The M16 is also not direct impingement. It’s splitting hairs, but it’s an inline gas with internal piston. And it works very very well.

The mini14 is a turd when compared to any quality AR15/M16. All sand, mud, dirt, ice tests of the m14 have it choking while the M16 does well if the dust cover is kept closed. The end user experience in the GWOT also does not jive with the m14 performing well in dust and sand.

The Galil was never even really used seriously by the Israelis, but they sure have put their M16s to good use.

The arguments you’re making against the M16 are the same old tropes made for decades. Ask any SOF member who served in the last 20 years what they think of the M4 in its various iterations over that time and I can guarantee that they will speak favorably about it.

Not scientific at all and really just for fun, however I still feel some conclusions can be made from the “tests” done by the communist asshats at InRange.


The full compilation of InRange dirt and mud tests.

I agree with you on the benefits of a .308 Garand.  I shot my .308 Garand a lot more than I ever shot either of my .30-06 garands.  My BM-59 and M1A get far more range time due in large part to the cartridge.

The Italians also had the right idea converting their M1 Garands to BM-59s and Beretta did austere BM-59E conversions for other nations wanting a magazine fed 7.62 NATO Garand at minimal cost.

If the US was serious about civilian marksmanship and providing rifles for militia use, it would have been doing low cost conversions of M1s to a similar BM-59E configuration for decades.  

If they were really serious they would have done a conversion to the standard BM-59 configuration.



—-

However, the CMP is incorrect in stating the M1 is the most common semi auto rifle.

It’s the most numerous of the rifles that have been distributed through CMP and its predecessor DCM program. But the number of AR-15s in the US is estimated to exceed 20 million. That’s almost 4 times more than the number of M1 Garands ever made (5.4 million).

——


Their common use is the strongest argument for the AR-15 as a default civil defense rifle or carbine.  

However, that said, there were 2.5 million Mini 14s produced between 2000 and 2009 per the ATF, and Ruger is still making about 300,000 per year.  There’s an estimated 15 million of them out there. Given the similarity to the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, and M1A, it could be argued that anyone familiar with one of those commonly encountered rifles could figure out a Mini 14 with no issues or specific training.

—-

The US is a big country with a lot of wide open spaces, and with the marginal nature of the 5.56mm NATO round there’s a need for the greater velocity the 20” barrel provides, something that offsets the advantages of a short barrel for riding around in an APC, etc.

There are also major advantages to keeping things simple.

The A1 carry handle sight, when properly zeroed, allowed shooters to engage torso sized targets to 300m using the short range aperture and then to 350m by just flipping up the short range aperture.  That’s sufficient to cover 95+% of infantry engagements.

The original M16A1 was light, very well balanced and very quick handling.   It gained weight and bulk in the A2, and then inherited a short barrel in the M4 but quickly gained the weight back with tactical crap that isn’t necessary on a civil defense rifle.

If the government were to start issuing them for civil defense use,  they’d do well to take a hard look at the original Colt SP1 or M16A1 configurations.  The 20” barrel improves terminal ballistics, particularly with am193.  The forward assist adds weight and expense with very little added utility. The carry handle sight with L shaped short and long range aperture was virtually idiot proof, and didn’t misrepresent the M16 as a long range rifle.



If they want something shorter, a lightweight pencil barrel 16” carbine makes more sense, again keeping it as simple as possible:

Irons are great and a 16” barrel carbine with c7 upper, collapsible stock, and a durable handguard would be a fine option. However, optics make for a much more capable rifle. Adding an ACOG or red dot will aid in implementation and lethality.

Gas rings can go bad after a few k rounds...I've had to replace some myself.  I know DI's a misnomer, it's just a short hand.  You know what I mean.

I'm an AKM fan.  A few countries have basically done that, and not the usual ones.  Malta and Finland acquired a bunch of AKMs from China/East Germany as back-ups.  

The big problem I have with the AKM for poorly trained shooters is actually the sights.  I am sure you are familiar with the following but let me summarized for those less knowledgeable.  The issue is that you can pass the same gun to two different shooters and get two completely different points of impact.  People see those sights differently because the sight radius is so short and the rear sight is just an open notch.  The problem with the open notch isn't so much that it's not a circle so much as that it has zero ability to focus light from the target area, which is a key principle for concept of an optical aperture.  The other problem is that zeroing is very challenging for new shooters, especially if the drum is too tight.  I also came across one time where the front drum was too loose.  

So I'd be ok with the AKM if it were modified to just be a red dot only gun (weld on a scope mount to the side rail or something), or if there was some Galil ARM style rear sight arrangement (with adjustment only on the rear).  

I'd also want to change the caliber to 5.56 of course.  Basically I'm approaching a Valmet or Galil very quickly with that idea.

Virtually any red dot, mounted appropriately, can make a rifle NV compatible too.  Without NV a force would quite simply be annihilated like the Battle of Cannae in any night engagement.

It’s really easy to swap gas rings. One would presume a Civil Defense Force would have some depot maintenance.

How about we just issue SIG PE90s, the most refined AK with the best iron sights. ;)

Absolutely agree. And I’ll take it a step further. A civil defense force needs nods, thermal, laser issued in addition to a rifle, optics, mags, mag carrier, armor, IFAK. We need to equip and train for modern warfare, not third world peasant soldier stuff.

It needs training, organization, and maintenance.

This isn’t rocket science. Just issue what our current active duty Army infantry get issued. Have armories/depots spread across each county so that bigger things like mortars, drones, and things that explode can be issued in an orderly fashion in quick order.

And training, training, training…..

Ar's have no known lifespan on gas rings. However you can start the bidding at close to 5-6k rounds. At that point the barrel is toast, as is the bolt and cam pin.

No the AR15 is not DI. The ljungman is DI, the AR15 is not. The ar15 has an internal gas piston fotmed by the carrier and tail of the bolt. If the AR15 was DI the gas key would be a blind hole, but it isn't.

No you do not need to remove the carbon on the tail of the bolt, unless the gun is getting mag dumped in FA constantly. By scraping off the carbon, you are making your gas system less effective

Unless you are shooing out of spec powder meant for .308, a gas tube will not foul. Its getting sand blasted by several thousand PSI carbon.

Very sensitive to dirt and dust, yet routinely outperforms everything else its put against. The only time it lost a sand test was when m4's returning from deployment with USGI mags were pitted against new rifles that were allowed to use whatever mags they wanted. And they STILL had to cook the numbers because the crapped out M4's with crap mags STILL wiped the floor with the SCAR, XM8, and 416

I can point out mini parts that have failed after less than 100 rounds. Usually gas rings last as long as the bolt

Its a thread about weapons design. Calling an AR DI is like calling a FAL a gas trap. Or calling a garand a direct blowback

What part on the Mini broke at less than 100 rounds?  

Yes I know it's not really DI.  I kind of want to make a true DI AR to troll people now.

Standardize on some model of AR15/M16/M4 because the logistics of locating spare parts (if they are ever needed) would be fairly simple to find.  While the Stoner systems are great, there are far more variations of AR15/M16/M4 around in this country.  So my vote would be for some variation of the AR15/M16/M4 systems.  Private citizens may not be able to get select fire parts, but at least they could likely get a semi-auto rifle to use.

Firing pins

You know when i think of a CD style rifle,  i think of a gun that you need to send back to the factory to replace a firing pin

Like I said, the idea wasn't to simply buy the Ruger Mini-14 as it is today directly from Ruger, but rather manufacture an improved version.  I mentioned on Page 1 that I would redesign the entire firing pin system so that it's drop safe.

Thats a lot of work. Like an insane amount of work that's not guaranteed to result in a functioning prototype, much less a functional production rifle.

Meanwhile i live 30 minutes from at least 4 places that are able to (and do) machine out raw forgings and put a rifle together.

You can easily quintuple that number if we can convert conventional machine shops around me

CWIS.

Bonus points if it has a Minion painted on it.

Much simpler than an AR, utterly reliable. I've got a thread going now in the AK section where i'm proposing some slight changes in the basic config for AK's that address some of the very issues you bring up here. Mainly, extended handguards, an integral red-dot mount, and improved iron sights.

Obligatory AKM pic:


WBP did a limited run, in 5.56 in fact with a couple of those changes, rear iron moved back with peep sight, integral red-dot mount amdiships:



But a shorter barrel than that, with longer handguards (with some m-lok slots added) like this German Weiger:

The US is not set up to handle development and mass production of a stamped rifle

The AR lets you machine forged and billet receivers in spaces as small as a kitchen cabinet and all you need is power and a laptop.

https://ghostgunner.net/product/ghost-gunner-3-deposit/


And the parts you make will be 100% interchangeable with the single most popular and successful rifle in the entire western world.

PSA is making 'em right now. PTR's been making stamped rifles for quite some time now. Multiple companies out there right now making 100% and 80% AK stamped receivers for builders.

AK's can also be made with a milled receiver.

Psa is making an existing design, and still aren't 100% that's also one company.

Ptr isn't a juggernaut, and they aren't 100% perfect either, despite making a pre existing design. That makes 2 companies making 2 different designs.

Yes you can mill an ak receiver. You can also mill an AR receiver and in the end you'll have a more reliable, more accurate, more ergonomic, lighter rifle with untold millions of spare parts.

You have millions of people who already know how to use them. How to build them. How to troubleshoot them.

Most arfcommers could arm a small platoon with crap lying around their spares box. How many of your ideal CD rifle do you have right now?

Maybe it could n improved by encasing it in aluminum upper and lower receivers with a steel barrel extension, change the gas system, bolt group, and fcg designs.

Optic for rifle would be based on location- red dot with magnifier for city, 1 x 8 with micro dot for all else. Allocation of 1000 rifle and 500 pistol rounds for training per year. If in good standing after 18 months maybe issued NVG. A .mil issued secure storage locker / safe is issued would be tax deductible. If gear comes up missing the IRS handles the debt for the missed gear.

The M1 is a dead end design. It hurts me to say that, as i love my m1 garands and carbines, however the AR15 is simply the better mouse trap. There are no flaws for you to fix that haven't already been found in 60 years of constant conflict all over the globe by people who can actually afford to replace their rifles and have been actively trying to since the m16's adoption.

There are a bunch of flaws with the AR.  Weak mags, requires a ton of lube, very dirty, the barrel extension to upper fit is sensitive for accuracy, etc.  It's not a good gun for someone with minimal training.

If you go to a gas piston system like that of an HK416/Adams/LWRC, etc. then that's a little bit more palatable.  Still stuck with mag geometry designed for disposable mags.

Why tie the civil defense rifle to a concept Stoner came up with in the 1950s?  He said he picked DI, excuse me, internal piston, because he had a strict weight budget and wanted all the recoil in line with the bore for more controllable full auto.

Yes, this is good.  I like this.

Weak mags? Yes and no. Pmags and lancers are as tough as it gets, and USGI mags can last forever with just a modicum of care. I have 20 and 30 round aluminum mags that have been boucing around since Vietnam, and adide from the occasional follower swap or new spring, they work perfectly.

The ar does not require a ton of lube. It's far more forgiving of lube than any m1 action. Dirty motor oil? Fine. Slip 2000? Fine. Vagasil? Fine. Kroil? Tw25b? The last bottle of cherrybalmz in the wold? Fine, fine, fine.

Very dirty? Thanks for letting me know you've never shot steel case in an AK or any roller delayed action ever. An AR doesn't need to be kept clean, reference BCM filthy 14.

Extension to upper fit is critical for accuracy. This is true. But unless you have some magical system that doesn't require a tight barrel to receiver fit, thats hardly unique to the AR. If it's having a barrel extension that you take issue with, thats a dumb complaint because that extension helps ensure you don't have to mess with headspace.

Its a fantastic gun for someone with minimal training. I work at an outdoor public range, and i can get someone up to speed far faster with an AR than any other firearm that isn't a .22lr. Like you are just totally straight up wrong about this one.

External gas pistons straight up suck. Add extra weight, non standard parts, and drastically reduce durability. External piston AR's suck so bad that henderson defense won't even consider using them, and for their HK416 rentals, use standard AR's mocked up to look like them.

Because its the standard that no one has been able to beat, and it exists, unlike some theoretical magic mini 14 that is perfect in every way, or some theoretical magic AK that is perfect in every way.

Not sure how much of a handicap that is, but there's a simple solution. When you combat reload, do not retrieve the empty mags. Treat them as disposable.

A colt M4a1 with a kac/p&s rail, vfg, and rail covers is just under $650

The colt socom i bought, i paid $1500 for.

Well he wants to run around with steel mini 14 mags. Retaining mags is a lot more important when you only have one source for good mags and they're $50 a pop

The mags are weak.  I've had USGI 30s fail to hold the rounds in place properly.  One time I dropped a loaded PMAG and it cracked.  The dimensions were literally conceived with the plan that they would be used once and then disposed on the battlefield.

What do you mean by getting someone up to speed?  Would you be able to provide a comparative example to some other gun?

The old DI system is on its way out to be honest.  If you look at what the military's switching to now it's all piston stuff.  Sig MCX for example.

Ive had lots of mags fail in various ways too. One or two failures doesn't constitute a trend.

"What do you mean by getting up to speed?" Do i have to explain this? It means taking someone who has spent all of 5-10 minutes handling a gun, and get them to where they can use the sights, load, unload, reload the gun, teach them how to maintain the firearm, and even how to clear common malfunctions. Its super easy to bring a noob to a basic level of competence. AR's are super user friendly. Everything is where it needs to be. Its natural. Its far quicker to pick up than an AK, or a mini. This is why anyone who actually needs a gun and can't just depend on free shit from the USSR always picks some type of AR pattern rifle.

"On the way out" lol. It's not. Please show me any data at all that even comes close to backing that up.

AUG mags are known for spewing the top couple if dropped or slapped on insertion.

Swiss SIG mags are known to crack at the rear radius where the feed lip meets the channel for the bolt catch.

I have steel G3 and steel SIG 540 mags that are dented to shit.

Milspec steel and Circle 10 AK mags are among the most durable, but even steel AK mags can be dented and taken out of commission. And they are heavy and cumbersome.

HK sought to make the most reliable magazine possible when they designed the G36. They are bulky, though Magpul’s iteration is quite good, better than HK for actual implementation re: fitting in mag pouches and they are still cumbersome.

The point is that there is no perfect re: mags. Contemporary AR mags come pretty close.


We have 2 decades and change of the GWOT, during which time usgi aluminum mags with Magpul followers Abe Magpul pmags have proven themselves unequivocally.

You ever humped a ruck with a standard loadout plus reloads. Yeah, they are heavy allright.

Think STANAG. If the Mini would work with a pmag, it'd be fine. They're not going to add another weapons platform for a bunch of untrained civilians, or people with years of training in an AR platform to transition because they got out a few years ago.

Pmags are fine for our military. It's what we'll be using when the day comes. Train up. Take a class. Learn your weapons platform. Learn how to pack a ruck. Learn about water, food, and shelter. Learn to use an IFAK. Learn about outdoor clothing and layering. Learn comms. Small unit tactics. Salute reports. METT-TC.
Learn basic land nav.

Find guys that have done this before, and get training from them. Be ready for that day, and then, pray that it never comes.

Have you heard of the XM7?  It's a piston rifle and is being adopted by all DoD branches.  Delta already uses the MCX.

I would think something along the lines of the standard M4 or a M16A3 with a A1 length stock would be fine. Issue it with a carry handle for the rear sight and a basic accessory package i.e. a decent sling that is hard to fuck up like a BFG VCAS, about a dozen magazines, bayonet and cleaning kit.

Logistically that approach makes the most sense.

Training not only in marksmanship but when to break it out would have to be a thing.

It would probably never happen but here's to dreaming.

Yes the XM7, the hyper over powered battle rifle that weighs more than an M1918

I'm sure it'll be a big hit and replace the aging XM8.

Whoops, sorry, i meant it will replace the M4.

For a lot of guys it's already replacing the M4.  It's a real thing.