Anyone else received a phone call about what ammo you intend on acquiring and shooting out of a DD?  I received one today asking to send a letter of what I was planning on shooting (pending form 1 203 and form 4 m79 ). Just curious to the topic where this road may lead.

Not a DD guy...but I have been looking at a launcher...but the post got me curious...

Asking or demanding?

The lady politely asked that I submit, but also would not take a verbal confirmation and that I would need to submit for the examiner.

"The legal kind."  *click*

Like you, I wonder where that line of questioning is headed.

I pretty much listed everything that I could purchase and have arrive on my door step, but also through in the not limited to any other lawfully acquired and available rounds.

"I don't plan on firing it, I'm a collector"

That would be my answer

That was answer number 2 if they persisted.

That's new, but now I can plan an answer should I get that call.
Maybe something like "All lawful ammunition for all lawful purposes."

My only guess is that it's a question that gets asked for any form submitted prior to the new 41f since that paperwork now includes a section regarding types of DDs. However, it's never been a question asked in the past.

"Any rounds I can lawfully own and shoot" if they persist on more details have them submit a request for informationin witting and let them know you they will receive a response from your lawyer.

IMO they are over stepping their boundaries and sometimes you have to play a little hard ball

LoL Golden Eggs  



 

There is a threat (in GD, I think) from a lawyer who did a FOIA request for all communication between the NFATC (or whatever they are called) and the ATF... there was quite a bit of discussion about making fixed ammo over .50 cal DD... might be related.

People  here and elsewhere called me a liar when I said ATF showed up at my door claiming since M781 was over .50 cal it required a FEL to possess. They didn't say it was DD ammo, rather that over .50bmg isn't small arms ammunition, and therefore the propellent isn't exempted from explosives licensing requirements and regulations.

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Plasma rounds in 40 watt range.

ETA- better yet, tell them that you intend to use Sig braces as ammo.  That should really make their heads hurt.

Form 1 received approved 1 week later.

To put your name  on a list . So they know where to go to take your good stuff away when people like sen D fuglystein don't  think you should have it . Got to love these F#@&ing morons running our country into the ground and making stupid laws that don't work at all. Seriously who elects these F#@%ing people.

Being approved is not really the issue . Your name still goes on there list of people who the ATF can possibly put in club fed .  I had a cousin who was in the ATF but kinda of had enough after the waco massacre and quit .  He wasn't even there ! sorry to stray from subject.

You are correct- they have made a "ruling" on 40mm ammo- even less lethal rounds going to agencies require FEL end user exemption / statement of use on all orders- regardless of what agency.   These things are .38 blanks and require this!

So what are you saying here?
Do you mean that if a LE agency is buying less-lethal 40mm rounds, the FEL selling them will have the agency sign an exemption/statement which states the agency is the end user and is not purchasing with the intent to resell?

If that's what you're saying, is this a new thing? Is the ATF requiring that they (FEL's) do this?

In general, what explosives regulations would M781 and similar rounds be subject to? They don't contain .25 oz or more of explosive, right? So do any magazine/storage requirements apply?

Yes it's a new thing for all agencies - local, state , and federal.   It used to not be a big deal on 40mm LL.  Now it is,  ATF had some body deem 40mm LL rds were reclassified and now need FEL or agency statement of use exemption forms.  All the LL companies are pissed at rules are changed for .38 blank powered less lethal munitions.  One of the companies got jammed up over it.  Magazines are also required for storage of 40mm less lethal rounds.  It is my understanding that the quantity of "explosive " doesn't matter as it's a 40mm and larger than .50 and is not for sporting purposes

I think they have changed some things regarding 37mm as well. If you have any "anti personnel" rounds to include less lethal or an adapter to,fire sub-caliber  munitions (12/20g, 9mm,.22....) the possession of those with the 37mm launcher now makes it a destructive device and requires registration as such .

Wouldn't these changes have to be in writing somewhere?
This seems to contradict federal law, where the quantity of explosive does matter.

37mm anti-personnel munitions in the presence of a suitable launcher have always made the launcher a DD. That part is nothing new.
An adapter, though, has never triggered any status change previously. After all, it could just as easily be used to fire a 12ga signal flare.

So unless they recently changed US Code, I don't see how all these changes could've been made effective.

I say bullshit. Still buying 40mm ammo and nothing has changed.

I unfortunately have to interact with the ATF on a regular basis, and I can assure you that it is not bullshit.  The change in policy/interpretation/enforcement is bullshit, but it is what they have done.  Just because they haven't gotten around to cracking down on everyone yet does not mean they are not systematically doing so.

ETA:  PM me a source on where I can buy more 40mm ammunition without an FEL?

"Whatever I can afford."

It's all over gunbroker and I've yet been told I can't buy anymore or that I'm going to be on a list. I also interact with atf agents that frequent the nfa world and there's been no mention to them.

IM'd you one. Found it on Google quite easily.

Also found this page: http://weaponsman.com/?p=24327 referencing this letter: http://weaponsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/40mm-M992-Confiscation-Letter.pdf

And a similar discussion here two years ago: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_21/448778_.html

all this does is encourage continued development of the stuff from the reloadable shells guys. I have some chalk rounds...but when they run out I'm going the load-your-own route.

Even chalk rounds are easily saleable as components if this happens.  As components you have 38 s&w blanks and a zinc paper weight with some plastic and carpenter's chalk.

Don't submit anything without talking to a lawer.


Should be something you talk with a lawer about. Asking is one thing, telling to submit anything written is another.

Already submitted and long approved. Not concerned with needing a lawyer being involved.

What rounds did you pick? I have one pending, if they call me I was planning on saying chalk rounds, any legal smoke/flare rounds, subcaliber adapters, and anything else legal to purchase and possess.

Courtesy of grog
• M381 HE
• M382 Practice HE
• M382E2 Practice HE
• M386 HE ground burst
M387 Factory Proof (E1, E2, E3, E4)
• M397 Airburst OCTOL
• M397A1 Airburst Comp B
• S405A HE
• S401B HEDP
• M406 High-explosive (HE)
• M407A1 HE Practice
M407 HE Practice
• M433 High-explosive dual purpose (HEDP)
• M433I OGRE HEDP
M434E1 HEDP
• M441 HE
• M463 HE flashless/smokeless
S481 HEDP (M433 type)
S482 HE (M433 type)
S492 FB PRAC (M433 type)
S493 PRAC
• M576E1 Buckshot
• M583A1 WHI star PARA flare
• M583 SOLAR FLARE
• ORACLE IR Illume para flare
• M585 White star cluster
• M651E3 CS
• M658 Green smoke para
• M659 Red smoke para
• M660 Yellow smoke para
• M661 Green star para or ground star illum
• M662 Red star para or ground star illum
• M663 Green star cluster
• M664 Red star cluster
• M665 Yellow star para or ground star illum
• M669 Violet smoke para
• M674 Riot control CS LARGE for M79
• M675 Red Smoke RS LARGE for M79
• M676 Yellow smoke canopy
• M679 Green smoke canopy
• M680 White smoke canopy
• M681 Violet smoke canopy
• M682 Red smoke canopy
M688 Grapnel Aluminum body
• M695 Orange star para flare
• M696 Yellow smoke streamer
• M697 Green smoke streamer
• M698 Orange smoke streamer
• M699 Red smoke streamer
• M700 Brown smoke streamer
• M701 Violet smoke streamer
• M713 Ground marker – Red
• M714 Ground marker- Violet Lt Blue,or White
• M715 Ground marker – Green
• M716 Ground marker – Yellow
• M781 Practice BLU ogive
• MERCURY MVT
• M8931 HE Red Phosphorus
• M992 Infrared Illuminant Cartridge
MK-285 PPHE
NGKO HEDP
NGKO-RF
• M1006 Non lethal rubber bullet
• M1029 Rubber Buckshot crowd dispersal
• M1060 HE Thermobaric
• M1060 HE HELLHOUND Thermobaric
• M1060I DRACO HE
• M1070 HUNTIR PARA camera
• M1080 MERCURY Med velocity Thermobaric
M8902A2 Prac
M8842A1 HE
• PHANTOM ground smoke markers in:
red
green
yellow
orange
white

plus anything I can reload into casings provided by 40mm manufacturers, including buckshot, flechette, muzzle blast chemical, and other less lethal payloads