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Posted: 7/25/2009 5:55:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Nobody has one, because none have been sold yet. They have been stuck in the prototype stage for several years now.
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Posted: 7/26/2009 5:26:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Thats a BUMMER! Thanks for the info.
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Posted: 10/5/2009 1:58:59 PM EDT
[#3]
They do exist, I received one today.
Assembled it, loaded a drum, and shot it!!! Very nice workmanship on the upper.... 
Fire control parts for open bolt. 
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Posted: 10/6/2009 4:58:13 AM EDT
[#4]
These only work with RR correct? If it will work with a DIAS im gettin one.
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Posted: 10/6/2009 6:20:32 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
They do exist, I received one today. Assembled it, loaded a drum, and shot it!!! Very nice workmanship on the upper.... http://users.zoominternet.net/~picplace/am15.jpg Fire control parts for open bolt. http://users.zoominternet.net/~picplace/am151.jpg How long was the wait time? How made rounds did you shoot? Any problems? m4whore |
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Posted: 10/6/2009 7:13:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
These only work with RR correct? If it will work with a DIAS im gettin one. Correct. They need the sear pin to be able to run the open bolt set up. Only a toy for the RR's. And m4whore, the one we got was paid for in 05, got it last week, more here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=292417 |
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Posted: 10/6/2009 8:58:13 AM EDT
[#7]
Paid for it 12/20/05
Assembled it onto the M16 and ran the drum and winder it came with. Had 3 stoppages. Pull the charging handle back to clear and then run each time. Ran it until the 500 round box was gone (Dynaponts) The last drum didn't have and stoppages. No tweaking needed that I see. I'm 100% satisfied and glad I didn't back out..... Hope I get to feel the same way about the Shrike..... |
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Posted: 10/6/2009 2:00:32 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm glad to hear they are finally shipping. I put money down around 4-5 years ago and was in the 30's on the waiting list. I talked with the owner and his wife for a long time about this upper during a SAR show and bought one of his suppressors. They seem like good people and I'm glad I didn't back out.
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Posted: 10/6/2009 4:08:08 PM EDT
[#9]
I don't want to sound like a jerk but is converting the M16 to a open bolt with upper going to result in another XMG disaster? (I know the XMG was closed baolt) Is the upper registred as a title 1 firearm?
I already know Colt light machine gun uppers have to use a open bolt and are legal. I just hate to see the ATF claim its a post sample. Looks great btw congrats! |
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Posted: 10/6/2009 5:02:29 PM EDT
[#10]
the only way i can see that it would be a problem is if its classified as a title 1 firearm.
i don't know why it would be since its just an upper. IF the company decided to classify it as a title 1 firearm, they would just be screwing themselves over... (its my limited understanding that BRP corp chose to classify the XMG as a title 1 firearm, don't really know why though) |
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Posted: 10/6/2009 6:49:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
I already know Colt light machine gun uppers have to use a open bolt and are legal. I just hate to see the ATF claim its a post sample. Looks great btw congrats! LMG uppers do not NEED open bolt. You can legally & physically nstall an open bolt FCG in an RR. But ONLY into a RR, not into a semi, or into something converted with a registered sear. Puttling an open bolt FCG into a semi receiver would be essentially the same as making a new open bolt gun, and that is about the same as making a new MG (and thus making a post sample) |
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Posted: 10/6/2009 9:39:16 PM EDT
[#12]
(its my limited understanding that BRP corp chose to classify the XMG as a title 1 firearm, don't really know why though)
BRP didn't choose anything, that's what BATF Tech Branch decided. Then five years later, BATF suddenly decided that an XMG99 on an RR, or used with a DIAS "constituted manufacturing a new machinegun" from the combination. |
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Posted: 10/6/2009 10:43:47 PM EDT
[#13]
hmmmm.
if tech branch decided the the XMG was to be classified as title 1 firearm.... why haven't they decided the same thing for the belt fed shrike? |
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Posted: 10/6/2009 11:24:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
hmmmm. if tech branch decided the the XMG was to be classified as title 1 firearm.... why haven't they decided the same thing for the belt fed shrike? Current wisdom is that it's because the shrike is still able to feed from the regular magazine well. The XMG99 can't. The part which ATF classifies as the "receiver" of a firearm is generally the part where it feeds - i.e., the magazine is inserted, or the belt is accepted. Shrike - augments the feed possibilities of the AR-15/M16, without making the existing lower receiver/magwell feed arrangement inoperative. The XMG99, of course, can't feed 8mm (or .308 or .30-06) through the existing magwell, so the ATF classified it as its own title 1 firearm, since it incorporates the feed mechanism (belt feed assembly). Then again, ATF has a special logic, all its own, and different from logic as we understand it... so maybe it's just the way the tea leaves or chicken guts came out the day they made their ruling. |
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Posted: 10/7/2009 9:42:52 AM EDT
[#15]
whats the point of even having an XMG upper? ya might as well just get a semi 1919
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Posted: 10/7/2009 2:21:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
whats the point of even having an XMG upper? ya might as well just get a semi 1919 Yep. They were fun for 5 years, while it lasted. |
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Posted: 10/7/2009 2:50:07 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
hmmmm. if tech branch decided the the XMG was to be classified as title 1 firearm.... why haven't they decided the same thing for the belt fed shrike? Current wisdom is that it's because the shrike is still able to feed from the regular magazine well. The XMG99 can't. The part which ATF classifies as the "receiver" of a firearm is generally the part where it feeds - i.e., the magazine is inserted, or the belt is accepted. Shrike - augments the feed possibilities of the AR-15/M16, without making the existing lower receiver/magwell feed arrangement inoperative. The XMG99, of course, can't feed 8mm (or .308 or .30-06) through the existing magwell, so the ATF classified it as its own title 1 firearm, since it incorporates the feed mechanism (belt feed assembly). Then again, ATF has a special logic, all its own, and different from logic as we understand it... so maybe it's just the way the tea leaves or chicken guts came out the day they made their ruling. ATF logic ended up saying that if you take a title 1 host gun (XMG), and add a title 2 portion (M16 RR), you have now made a new title2 gun out of what was a title1 gun. Even if that had any merit - how does that differ from taking a title 1 host (AR15) adding a title 2 portion (RDIAS, RLL), and you have made a new title 2 gun out of what was a title 1 gun. Apparently adding a RDIAS or RLL is ok, but adding a whole RR is not.
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Posted: 10/7/2009 4:53:37 PM EDT
[#18]
ooooooo
could you imagine the uproar if ATF ruled that RLLs abd RDIASs could not be used in title1 firearms? YIKES!!! |
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Posted: 10/7/2009 6:08:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
ooooooo could you imagine the uproar if ATF ruled that RLLs abd RDIASs could not be used in title1 firearms? YIKES!!! The logic in the XMG ruling is horrible for RDIAS and RLL owners. The RPD-on-a-M11 was ruled no good (after ruling it was ok) but that was not dinged for the ammo feed location, but was dinged for the open bolt firing. In that case, the upper itself was ruled a MG. The shrike is perilously close to this ruling, but the shrike can still run with a regular magazine through the receiver. But you could argue that while in "belt fed mode" the lower receiver is no longer functioning like that of an AR. The TI22 upper pushes the envelope further, since you can't use the M16's magwell. So if the TI22 is ok, then the "magwell" rule goes out the window. The XMG apparently lost ATF-blessing points because it contained the recoil spring in the upper, which means the lower is not functioning as it would in a typical AR (housing the recoil spring assy). I haven't laid my hands on the TI22, but I would assume it (like all other AR .22cals) contains the recoil spring also.. So AFIAK, there are only two differences between the TI22 and XMG. One being the caliber, and the other being the XMG is a title 1 where the TI22 is a non-gun. I'd ask what makes the XMG so naughty, but invariably the BATFE would paint with the biggest brush possible and rule the TI22 a post-MG and ban use of any conversion device (RLLs, RDIAS, registered UZI bolts, HK sears, FNC sears, Thompson sears, etc) Wow, apologies for hijacking this thread. Been a while since I've seen such twisted logic. 
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Posted: 10/7/2009 8:18:21 PM EDT
[#20]
If anyone has a copy of the ATF Ruling on the XMG, please post.
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Posted: 10/8/2009 7:54:46 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
If anyone has a copy of the ATF Ruling on the XMG, please post. [In Obi-Wan Kenobi voice] "Use the search, Luke" I read it here somewhere earlier this year. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 7:57:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: If anyone has a copy of the ATF Ruling on the XMG, please post. [In Obi-Wan Kenobi voice] "Use the search, Luke" I read it here somewhere earlier this year. All I found was this - http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=23&t=265061 I am looking for something on ATF letterhead. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 7:58:04 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
If anyone has a copy of the ATF Ruling on the XMG, please post. BRP had it on their website for a while, I don't know if they took it down yet. The AM15 shouldn't be an issue, because the recoil spring is still housed in the lower, like a normal AR15. The problem that I saw with the XMG, is that the only thing the lower did, was house the FCG. The recoil spring/housing was part of the XMG upper, not part of the lower. The shrike still uses the RR recoil, buffer, buffer spring, etc. That was my take on it any way. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 8:00:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: If anyone has a copy of the ATF Ruling on the XMG, please post. BRP had it on their website for a while, I don't know if they took it down yet. They continue to have this: UPDATE 1/3/2009: We were recently notified by BATFE in a letter dated 12/23/08 that the XMG upper receiver assembly may only be used with semiautomatic lower receivers unless registered on an ATF Form 2 as a dealer sales sample by a licensed manufacturer and Special Occupational Taxpayer. We're seeking clarification on this issue and direction on possible modifications to the existing design. If you have any questions regarding this ruling, please contact BRP CORP at 301-807-5234. That implies they are working the issue and Final Ruling has not yet taken place. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 5:55:01 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
If anyone has a copy of the ATF Ruling on the XMG, please post. BRP has not shared this letter with anyone. This makes sense because back in the day, the XMG was okay and the RPD-on-a-MAC was denied. RPD-on-a-MAC goes to ATF and says "but you let him do it" with a copy of the XMG authorization letter, and ATF responds by pulling the plug on BOTH. Brian at BRP has chosen to keep this quiet and is working the issue privately with BATFE. His website will contain the latest info - but everyone in this forum knows how fast ATF is with a simple F1, let alone with a real technical inquiry. I know a bit more about the situation, but probably shouldn't post. But I have more faith in Brian working it out directly than any possible positive resolution from a bunch of folks on the sidelines. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 5:55:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If anyone has a copy of the ATF Ruling on the XMG, please post. BRP had it on their website for a while, I don't know if they took it down yet. The AM15 shouldn't be an issue, because the recoil spring is still housed in the lower, like a normal AR15. The problem that I saw with the XMG, is that the only thing the lower did, was house the FCG. The recoil spring/housing was part of the XMG upper, not part of the lower. The shrike still uses the RR recoil, buffer, buffer spring, etc. That was my take on it any way. Does the AM15 have a recoil spring in the upper ? One that rides against the standard AR buffer? Never seen the TI unit so I am just guessing here. |
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Posted: 10/20/2009 10:24:56 AM EDT
[#27]
I've run numerous drums thru the AM-15 and it is awesome! Anyone sitting on the bench will miss out, these uppers are great...
The only accessory's I've added are rail covers and a 30 round mag with the feed lips cut off. The mag allows the spent brass to fall away from your feet and prevents the lower receivers mag well from getting all crapped up from powder residue. |
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Posted: 10/21/2009 9:42:04 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If anyone has a copy of the ATF Ruling on the XMG, please post. BRP had it on their website for a while, I don't know if they took it down yet. The AM15 shouldn't be an issue, because the recoil spring is still housed in the lower, like a normal AR15. The problem that I saw with the XMG, is that the only thing the lower did, was house the FCG. The recoil spring/housing was part of the XMG upper, not part of the lower. The shrike still uses the RR recoil, buffer, buffer spring, etc. That was my take on it any way. Does the AM15 have a recoil spring in the upper ? One that rides against the standard AR buffer? Never seen the TI unit so I am just guessing here. No, it has its own, smaller buffer tube that fits inside the regular AR buffer tube. So that is likely why the ATF didn't can this project, because it is still using the guns normal recoil operation. Pretty much the same set up as the lakeside, with it spacer, and smaller spring and buffer. |
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Posted: 10/21/2009 9:42:35 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
I've run numerous drums thru the AM-15 and it is awesome! Anyone sitting on the bench will miss out, these uppers are great... The only accessory's I've added are rail covers and a 30 round mag with the feed lips cut off. The mag allows the spent brass to fall away from your feet and prevents the lower receivers mag well from getting all crapped up from powder residue. That's an interesting idea. How many spent .22's does it hold? Can you get threw a whole drum? |
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Posted: 10/21/2009 9:55:36 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've run numerous drums thru the AM-15 and it is awesome! Anyone sitting on the bench will miss out, these uppers are great... The only accessory's I've added are rail covers and a 30 round mag with the feed lips cut off. The mag allows the spent brass to fall away from your feet and prevents the lower receivers mag well from getting all crapped up from powder residue. That's an interesting idea. How many spent .22's does it hold? Can you get threw a whole drum? Don't know, I removed the base of the mag so the spent brass falls out. |
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Posted: 10/21/2009 1:27:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Dumb question .....
To use this upper, I need to replace the fire-control in my lower for open-bolt operation, right? I assume the new fire-control is designed to work with the AM-15 upper. What would it take to make it work with other calibers? Matching bolt-carriers? |
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Posted: 10/21/2009 2:11:49 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Dumb question ..... To use this upper, I need to replace the fire-control in my lower for open-bolt operation, right? I assume the new fire-control is designed to work with the AM-15 upper. What would it take to make it work with other calibers? Matching bolt-carriers? The AM15 fire control parts are for it's fixed firing pin bolt...... These aren't Colt LMG fire control parts. |
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Posted: 10/21/2009 8:27:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've run numerous drums thru the AM-15 and it is awesome! Anyone sitting on the bench will miss out, these uppers are great... The only accessory's I've added are rail covers and a 30 round mag with the feed lips cut off. The mag allows the spent brass to fall away from your feet and prevents the lower receivers mag well from getting all crapped up from powder residue. That's an interesting idea. How many spent .22's does it hold? Can you get threw a whole drum? Don't know, I removed the base of the mag so the spent brass falls out. Ah. Makes sense. I didn't catch that there was no floor plate on it. 
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Posted: 10/22/2009 8:08:31 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've run numerous drums thru the AM-15 and it is awesome! Anyone sitting on the bench will miss out, these uppers are great... The only accessory's I've added are rail covers and a 30 round mag with the feed lips cut off. The mag allows the spent brass to fall away from your feet and prevents the lower receivers mag well from getting all crapped up from powder residue. That's an interesting idea. How many spent .22's does it hold? Can you get threw a whole drum? To chime in, the beltbox holder/brass catcher device on the LM22 beltfed .22 upper will hold around 400 spent .22's, and it's only about the size of a 20rd mag. I'd guess there's a really good chance the 30rd shell with a floorplate would hold two 275rd drums, but doubt it'd make it through a third. |
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Posted: 10/23/2009 6:50:06 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've run numerous drums thru the AM-15 and it is awesome! Anyone sitting on the bench will miss out, these uppers are great... The only accessory's I've added are rail covers and a 30 round mag with the feed lips cut off. The mag allows the spent brass to fall away from your feet and prevents the lower receivers mag well from getting all crapped up from powder residue. That's an interesting idea. How many spent .22's does it hold? Can you get threw a whole drum? To chime in, the beltbox holder/brass catcher device on the LM22 beltfed .22 upper will hold around 400 spent .22's, and it's only about the size of a 20rd mag. I'd guess there's a really good chance the 30rd shell with a floorplate would hold two 275rd drums, but doubt it'd make it through a third. Fair enough. I've played with one of the LM7's, didn't even think about its size though. |
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Posted: 10/24/2009 8:05:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
To chime in, the beltbox holder/brass catcher device on the LM22 beltfed .22 upper will hold around 400 spent .22's, and it's only about the size of a 20rd mag. I'd guess there's a really good chance the 30rd shell with a floorplate would hold two 275rd drums, but doubt it'd make it through a third. I don't know if you have a different beltbox or what but on my LM7, 200 rounds it is is almost full. No way I could get 400 rounds in there. Below is a link to a vid of mine running 200 rounds in full auto suppressed. http://www.livevideo.com/video/F48D69D5DF9B4D15BAF403470DA17EB0/lm7-22lr-beltfed-upper-200-rou.aspx |
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Posted: 11/11/2009 8:27:22 PM EDT
[#37]
I just got an e-mail stating mine is ready for shipment. I also just got the new BDM drum. Times are good for 22lr/M16 guys.
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Posted: 11/12/2009 10:40:48 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
ooooooo could you imagine the uproar if ATF ruled that RLLs abd RDIASs could not be used in title1 firearms? YIKES!!! The logic in the XMG ruling is horrible for RDIAS and RLL owners. The RPD-on-a-M11 was ruled no good (after ruling it was ok) but that was not dinged for the ammo feed location, but was dinged for the open bolt firing. In that case, the upper itself was ruled a MG. The shrike is perilously close to this ruling, but the shrike can still run with a regular magazine through the receiver. But you could argue that while in "belt fed mode" the lower receiver is no longer functioning like that of an AR. The TI22 upper pushes the envelope further, since you can't use the M16's magwell. So if the TI22 is ok, then the "magwell" rule goes out the window. The XMG apparently lost ATF-blessing points because it contained the recoil spring in the upper, which means the lower is not functioning as it would in a typical AR (housing the recoil spring assy). I haven't laid my hands on the TI22, but I would assume it (like all other AR .22cals) contains the recoil spring also.. So AFIAK, there are only two differences between the TI22 and XMG. One being the caliber, and the other being the XMG is a title 1 where the TI22 is a non-gun. I'd ask what makes the XMG so naughty, but invariably the BATFE would paint with the biggest brush possible and rule the TI22 a post-MG and ban use of any conversion device (RLLs, RDIAS, registered UZI bolts, HK sears, FNC sears, Thompson sears, etc) Wow, apologies for hijacking this thread. Been a while since I've seen such twisted logic.
what about the 5.7 uppers that use the PS90 mags? the mag well is not being used (except for ejection). also, NO .22 upper uses the AR-15 recoil spring, they are all housed in the upper receivers... ????? |
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Posted: 11/27/2009 8:06:28 PM EDT
[#39]
I got mine in the mail earlier this week and had a chance to shoot it this afternoon. I was using Federal high velocity ammo. It's not the bulk pack but comes in those 100 round plastic trays like CCI minimags so I'm guessing there are good stuff. I had 3 jams in 165 rounds but I'm pretty sure they were caused by not winding up the drum enough. I cleared the jam, winded it up and continued. This thing is way faster than the Spikes conversion and I like the way the brass is in a neat pile under the rifle which makes it easier to clean up.
It didn't come with any instructions but their websitie has them but they are missing the operation procedure portion. I don't know anything about these drums so I was winging it. I had to test out a bunch of other stuff so I didn't have time to load up the drum and do it again but I look forward to the next outing. I need to get one of those 275 round drums, that will be a blast. |
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Posted: 12/1/2009 10:29:14 AM EDT
[#40]
Grrr.... the awesomeness of this just further aggravates the itch of "I _need_ a RR" while the old lady is still complaining about the cost of my last cans...
This sounds like a really good deal for you RR guys. Best of luck to you all!! |
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Posted: 12/12/2009 2:10:42 PM EDT
[#41]
I finally had a chance to take it out the range again today. This time I winded up the drum enough times to do a dump. I got through around 155 rounds (10 fell out when I tried to wind it when the mag wasn't on the gun) with one jam which was on the last round. While any jam is not good, if it were to happen, the last round is the ideal time. It was cool how the drum still was spinning after all the rounds were shot. The 275 round drum is on my X-Mas list.
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