While doing ballistic calculations I kept getting better theoretical performance in the computer with the lighter Hornady 75 gr, vs the Nosler 77 gr, with regards to 600 downrange drift and velocity (and yes, actual firing works, but 600 yard range testing access is hard).  I finally tracked it down - the published Hornady ballistic coefficient is .3950, while the Nosler BC is 0.34

This is difficult for me to understand.  That's a pretty big difference, for two bullets that look pretty similar.  And somewhat surprising that the heavier bullet has the lower ballistic coefficient.  Any thoughts on why the Nosler BC is listed as so much lower than the Hornady?

One is a secant and the other is a tangent ogive. Try them both. Either one could perform better in your particular rifle.

I load the 77gr Noslers with 24gr of Varget and they are awesome in my SCAR. Once dialed in, no trouble hitting steel at 500 yards.

77gr Noslers FTW

I love the nosler and sierra 77's.  My buddy and gunsmith has the same RRA NM rifle, his likes the 75 hornady.  

Shoot them both and let the gun tell you what it wants.

What primer were you using? I have been having issues with Nosler 77s.

I'm using Tula primers with 24 of Varget out of my WOA High Power upper, a RRA Varmint 24" and a Tikka Scout 1/8. Good performance from all.

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BC's published by mfgs are not always good to go, there tends to be a fudge factor between real world and published BCs. i get great results frm the 75g Hornadys in my 1-7 Noveske but Whatever you do don't try the 77 Berger OTMs.....they are hard enough to get as it is don't need more people finding out how accurate they are....

Published BC's are G1 and rifle bullets are more similar to G7. Also, published BC's are usually inflated.

Can the 75gr Hornadys be loaded to mag length?  For some reason I seem to recall that they couldnt.

Yes, they can, and should be.

You may be thinking of Hornady's AMAX projectiles.  Those are a VLD design which you should not try to load to mag length.

hmm, must be. Thanks!

 

This right here. The HPBT and A-Max are the only match bullets I shoot in 223 now.

Have 77 grain Sierra on the press now, have 77 grain Noslers loaded with IMR-8208 xbr and hundreds of Hornady 75 grain hpbt loaded with Varget.

Performance from either 1/7 or 1/8 has always been best with 75 grain Hornady hpbt and Varget. At 100 yards I can get comparable performance from all 3, get out past 300 and the Hornady shines. That said when the Hornady's are gone there won't be anymore bought.

Done with Hornady but reckon that's best saved for another thread.

dc.

Deleted, sorry

I hate dwelling on problems, rather move on to solutions.

Link to my new single stage press, swage die and drawn copper jacket source.

LOL!  Now I get it.  I thought you were implying Hornady did something wrong.

Did you get the dies yet?

Hornady's got all sorts of issues, starting with not running a production schedule. What's more I do not believe Hornady controls their production schedule, it's run by an outside marketer. Not getting into the story or chain of events that led me to where I'm at today except to say I'm wearing a Nosler ball cap this year at competition, compliments of Nosler. Will be a month or two before Richard has tooling ready to ship.


eta, the problem and point I would like for OP to consider n his decision making is simple. A lot of time and work goes into developing a good long range rifle load. We plan ahead as much as we can and buy bulk whenever possible so we are covered when supply runs short. That said, speaking for myself at least. When a manufacturer runs out of a product, one as popular as say 208 A-Max, I expect manufacturer to at least slot that product into a production schedule, not do what was done last time. Called for better than six months asking for production date. No idea was Hornady's answer for almost 9 months, everyone waited another 4 months after production date. This went from 2008 into 2009.

I've gone through the same ordeal again for 121 grain HAPS. Nosler and Sierra both run production schedules and won't allow gaps in production like Hornady will. Anyways, I've got Noslers to use but load work up had to be done, cartridge tuned to pistol and vice versa. 

Hmm,... I would have guessed the 208 AMAX was a bit of a specialty bullet.  I'd say that about all/most of the AMAX line but especially a 30 cal, 208 gr AMAX.  That is to say, much less popular than their other offerings such as the 75 gr HPBT-M.  

I've never had any significant trouble getting a supply of the 75 gr HPBT-M bullet, other than during periods of crazy hoarding.  When this happened last time, I bought a supply of Widener's 75 gr MIL-SPEC bullets.  They are not as good as a Hornady but I used them for 100 and 200 yard practice sessions, reserving the Hornady's match ammo.  A simple substitution like that means just shooting enough to know there's no pressure problems and verifying zero at 100 and 200 yards.  The OP could do a similar substitution between the 75 and 77 gr offerings considered here if the OP is flexible in your practice ammo.

Don't believe the manufacturers claims... The hornady 75 is actually the lowest of the 75/77 bmag length bullets tested by Bryan Litz.


The Lapua is my bullet of choice, with the Nosler a close second. I usually shoot a Berger 75 VLD at 600 yards, but the Lapua will shoot 195 to high 190's with dumped charges, the 75's just give a point or two average better, but usually double the X count. I don't feel undergunned at all using any of these at 600.


Here are the G7 Litz BC's for some of the more popular bullets:

Lapua Scenar 77gr - .206

Nosler Custom Comp 77gr - .193

Sierra MK 77gr - .190

Berger VLD 70gr - .190

Hornady HPBT 75gr - .183

The Litz tested G1 BC on the Lapua 77 is .412, and .393 ( I think...) on the Nosler and .390 on the Sierra and Berger 77's, for reference.

If your feeling all turbo, the 70 VLD's will shoot mag length quite well, and can be loaded to 3000 fps easily and have quite an advantage at that speed. Use 69 Sierra data as a start point, they have less bearing surface so it takes a bit to get the speed up there.

the 77's like to be going 2700-2750 (20 in AR) or 2850-2900 ( 24 in Bolt action)  and in shorter guns they seem to like to be 2500-2600fps...The 75's seem to like 2750-2800 in a 20 in AR. Never shot them in a shorter rifle for accuracy, Which is easy to do without much fuss. You can use 77 data for 75's but 75 data is usually higher than 77's, so it doesent work backwards. The 75's have less bearing surface. With the increase in speed, you can pretty much equal out the BC 's between the two. My practice load is 75's and 23.2 IMR8208. 2750 fps. A popular load for them is 24.5 RE15, gets just under 2850 fps. ( 20 in 1-7.7 Krieger) The 8208 just meters alot better and is cleaner, and was more available at the time. I had 4000 75 hornady's ( a deal I couldnt pass up. $60/1k) )  and this was an easy answer for practice. When the last 1k or so I have gets turned into brass and smoke again, the Nosler 77CC will be the bullet i will use for practice. Used 2k of them before and still have 500 loaded left and they shot real well. Used them all the way back for a full course and ended up in the 780's. Not bad. Its a good bullet.

My favorite load for the 77's is 23.5 H4895 followed by 23.2 IMR8208, both of which will put you just above 2700 with a 20 in rifle. The H4895 is just a little more accurate and consistant.
24.0 RE15 and 24.5 Varget will do the same, just closer to 2750

A bolt action will handle about 0.5-1.0 grain more without issue. Sierra lists 2 different charts for a reason, and Hogdon data is based on Bolt guns. You might not reach max loads in an AR, but sometimes you can, chamber and throat have alot to do with it. Surprisingly significant difference for me between 5.56 NATO, .223 Wylde, and .223 CLE Match. The Nato chamber barrel I have ( FN CHF SS 1-7)can take the loads my bolt gun does and will post the same speeds as the CLE chambered  AR does with less of a charge, same length barrels, the CLE loads in it are usually 100 fps less or so..... yeah chambers do make a difference!  The Bolt gun has the CLE chamber as well, but will take a full grain more without issues. AND, its rediculously fun.

77 Nosler better than 75 hornady.

Good Lord, that's going to change everything.  Now I don't even know what is right.

Bryan Litz is the ballistician at Berger Bullets and wouldn't lead you astray. Best thing to do, is get some of each, try them in your rifle and whatever shoots the best run with that. Based on a lot of experience the noslers or sierras are the easiest to get to shoot good, then lapuas ( not every rifle likes them) then the hornady. No real need for load development unless you just like to play around, the loads I listed above will generally shoot to the rifles limit.

The Hi-power shooters around here have gone to a magnum primer on their 600 yd loads.
No more pressure signs than regular primers and seems to reduce vertical stringing.

It changes nothing.

You need to get a zero for whatever bullet you can find, whether it's H 75, N77, S77,...

Yes, thank you for that.  Unfortunately, very few people have regular access to a 600 yard range to do development and test work on.  At best, most have access only during competitions, which isn't necessarily when one wants to be testing.  So yes, testing at 100 yards is helpful, but 600 yard drop estimations are handy to have ahead of time - because two equally good groups at 100 yards may not be so equal at 600 yards.  And longer dwell time means more time for wind to blow things around, so running a calculator is mighty handy for those without access to a private 600 yard range.

Agreed, and even if you had access to a 600 yard range, it is very difficult to do load development testing at 600 yards.  Then again, many people don't have a 600+ yard range, at all.

Still, you need to get your zeroes using live fire.  You cannot go to a range and expect to be zeroed for a match using a ballistics program.  Yes, you need to be on paper.  Any of those BC's will get you on paper.  The differences from one bullet to the other is unlikely to get you off the paper.  The best to the worst would probably be one scoring ring or some such (a few inches at 600 yards).  

The key is calling your shots and trusting your sights - knowing that a shot 2 MOA left will center up with a 2 MOA sight adjustment.  You know what I mean?  There's nothing wrong with two sighter shots wide in the 8 ring, as long as it's a "snake bite" or on call.  I trust my sights and just click in the adjustment knowing the next shot will be centered (if I do my part).



We are probably waaayyy off topic.