Very nice! Thanks for sharing.

Will do. No worries about me buying anything yet. I don't have my budget together yet and besides, it would be silly of me to buy anything before I've been properly trained.

You'll be the first arfcommer I've met in person ... that I know of.

That's what we are doing, here is a picture of the setup if it's helpful. Transducers are not hooked up in first pic.

That's awesome!  Thanks for sharing that.  What's the date on the AEP-97 in the picture?

....

Be careful with this and things like it.  Without written permission for release, you could easily run afoul of your employer's public disclosure policies.

I know that where I work, posting images like this could easily get me fired (or worse).

No idea sir! Will look though on Monday if it's worthy to the thread.

Again, I don't get to play with this stuff much at all, but want to get in the test cell and do some testing and better learn the equipment.


I could run some "NATO" M193 stuff through it and see where it tests (I am positive they already have) and post the pressures. The 3240 FPS in a 20" barrel with the 51,000 PSI was using WC844, but I don't know total grains of powder off the top of my head.

Would be interesting to just flat out run some factory .223 and some M855A1 through it for comparison.

I appreciate the concern. When I get around to writing a public disclosure policy I will adhere to it.

LOL!  Good one!

Be careful of unintentional technology/technique exports, too.  You can run afoul of ITAR restrictions for technology exports,... even in the absence of an internal policy.

Oh, well, I'm sure you understand my point and have it covered.

Glad you guys met up.  This was the first show I seriously considered going to in quite some time...but I stayed home and lifted, did weapons maintenance, and am about to reload some 9mm.



Maybe one of these days I'll go back to WAC.

We did indeed. I learned a lot. Thanks, @dryflash3!

Updated gear list. I expect to be able to fill in quite a few more blanks after next week's training with dryflash3.

Tumbler: Decision TBD
Tumbling media: Decision TBD
Media separator: Decision TBD
Media polish: Decision TBD
Shell holders: Plastic, green, from LGS
Primer pocket cleaner: Decision TBD
Primer pocket uniformer: Decision TBD
Primer pocket swager: Decision TBD
Priming tool: Decision TBD. Possibly the primer setup on an older RCBS press.
Trimmer: Decision TBD
Calipers: Decision TBD
Case gage: Decision TBD
Deburring tool: Decision TBD
Single stage press: RCBS Rockchucker
Case lube: Likely home-made
Dies: Hornady
Loading blocks: Fabricated from scrap wood
Powder measure: Redding
Powder measure stand: Decision TBD
Powder funnel: Decision TBD
Beam or electronic scale: Beam. RCBS, Lyman, or OHAUS
Bullet puller: Decision TBD
Stuck case remover: Decision TBD

This reloading stuff? I like it! Thank you, @dryflash3, for the great training. Wow, I learned so much. I have 14 pages of notes.

Now I have three loads to test. 53 grain Hornady V-Max with 24.0 grains, 24.5 grains, and 25.0 grains of H335 behind them.

shoot for groups without adjusting anything.

see what happens...

:)

Just because I didn’t see anyone mention this- OP you said your old buddy loaded things too hot, and that idea was somewhat based on flame shooting out of the muzzle….  Visible flash like that is a factor of unburnt powder, what powder is used, whether it has flash retardants, and a lack of a flash hider.  It has zero to do with the pressure of the load, and just means some of the powder was not usefully used.  (Usually happens to some extent or another).  Anyhow, don’t equate “big flash” to “over pressure” or unsafe loads by itself.  But I agree with you- keep it reasonable, stay out of the danger zone, and your gun won’t wear out quite as quickly either if you keep it reasonable.  Plus the hottest loads are seldom the most accurate loads.

Also if you decide to try the Nosler 55 gr Ballistic Silvertips mentioned earlier by someone, keep in mind they are basically the same bullet as the Nosler ballistic tip, just with a black lube coating.  Winchester has loaded them for a couple decades in their Ranger LE lineup, I have shot tens of thousands of them, and they always were a stellar performer with a decent rifle.  They are a great varmint bullet (not my ideal LE bullet but that is another subject).  Anyhow keep in mind they are the same thing as the normal orange tipped ballistic tips, which are usually easy to find (and are what Federal loads in some of their TRU loads).  

I think your barrel will probably be a Ballistic Advantage made for Aero, as they are sister companies.  Should be fine and actually chamber in 5.56 specs hopefully, but I have seen one with too tight of headspace, I suspect the bolt was more of the problem than the chamber/barrel extension.  At least that is what gauges and micrometer pointed to, and I fixed it by swapping to a Colt bolt that was not on the big end of the tolerance.  Before that though, the gun choked on some of my reloads, and even on Winchester Q3131 factory ammo.  So knowing your loads are good for your particular rifle, before you load 500 of them, is kind of important sometimes.  (Especially if you just have 2 rifles to load for).

Thanks for all the great info. Some clarification: My friend told me he loaded hot. He liked to brag about "starting" at the highest maximum value he could find in a book. The flame was confirmation, in my mind. Thanks for the additional information, though. I won't equate a big flash with over-pressure in the future.

I'm getting started loading for my wife's and my 5.56 carbines but once I feel like I know what I'm doing, I'll be reloading .300 BO, .30-30, 6.5 Grendel, .38, and .357. Maybe even 12-gauge. Your point is well-taken, though, and fits with what I learned yesterday. The process of developing a load all the way through before loading in quantity makes perfect sense to me.

Is the room pressured ….err…pressurized….ummn…over-pressured?

I see the  “manometers”???

We have those in several spots in the refinery (inside our old control room, our remote instrument enclosure building, and the continuous environmental monitoring shacks).

It helps keep the petroleum coke dust and the nasty possibly flammable fumes out.

EDIT:  we also have them on the intake ducts for our air compressors.  It tells us when the air filters need to be swapped out.

EDIT #2:  with that much aluminum tread plate and by the looks of the overhead target carrier/trolly system, I am guessing Action Target put all that together for you.

In that case, you should never have to worry about ventilation.

Yes correct on the ventilation.

It's a MILO ready range. Air handler is on the roof of the building, the container is actually inside our building, but vented outside to the RTU.

It has a nice breeze heated and cooled from back to front, so all the crap is pulled away from you. It runs through HEPA filters.

Range tests complete. 25 yards, indoors. Controlled environment, no wind, about 68 degrees. I fired half of it; I'm saving the other half to see how it runs in my wife's AR. Beside confirming that I'm not a very good shot, it seems like as the powder quantity went up, the groups got tighter. My perception needs to be validated or invalidated with measurements, though. It's hard to shoot from a rest at my club. The range bench is only about 15" deep, front to back. It's impossible to get the rear bag anyplace useful.

If I apply what I've learned, I would go back to the books and make sure I know what the maximum loads are, and then maybe load the next batch at 24.8, 25.2, 25.4, and 25.6. Then test shoot those and look for the data plateau rather than just the peak. My terms; I forget the actual terms but I'll learn.

Am I on the right path with my thinking, if not actual numbers?

Some sample primer shots. They all look great to me but what do I know? I'm a newbie.

Thanks, everybody. This has been a lot of fun. There was something a bit special about firing rounds I had helped produce. And it was very gratifying to see them grouping, and then get better. As soon as I get my gear and get my bench set up, I'll finish developing this load. I have no stockpile of small varmint ammo, so as soon as I'm set up and I finish developing it, I'm going to want to load hundreds of rounds, if not a thousand or more. And that's when I'll truly find out if I like reloading as much as i think I do now. I tend to like things that help us be more self-sufficient, though, and this fits right in.

Thanks, especially, to @dryflash3, for giving me the great training and especially for the confidence to proceed. Especially after the flawless function and nice groups that resulted. Nice for me, anyway. I feel like at 25 yards, I ought to be able to put them all through the same hole.

That isawesome, those primers look perfectly fine.


Congratulations on the milestone!  Feels good, doesn't it!

Now, I'd say (as I'm sure you've determined) where you're shooting is less than ideal for load development.

Me, I want to be in a solid, fully supported prone position, optimally shooting at 100 yards (or at the very least, 50), applying the 4 fundamentals to the best of my abilities.  This will make it easy to determine what charge is most accurate.

I understand what you're doing with the sharpie there, makes sense.

I use sharpie marks on case heads to track how many times a case has been loaded.  5 times and they get chucked (.223).

Roger, I could see what he was doing.

Yes, indeed, it does feel good. I know the indoor range was sub-optimal, to say the least. I couldn't get to the long range this week and I was anxious to try them out. What can I say?

Thanks! Thanks too for all of your threads and posts over time. I've been reading up on reloading in the archives and you have a lot of great content in there.

Thank you! You made a big investment in time and effort for me and I'm trying to do you justice. 25.0, 25.2 and 25.4 So shall it be done.

I'll be going to the funshow tomorrow to see if I can find a Rockchucker.

Thanks! That helps a lot. I'm pretty good with rust, just based on years of experience. I restore old cars and my garage is where rust comes to die.

If I find one and can disassemble it and mask it, I might even give it a coat of primer and some new paint. I'm thinking engine block paint since it's made of cast iron. If I get a press tomorrow, it will be at least a few weeks until I can gather everything else, so I may as well put the time to good use. Unless I shouldn't paint it?

Good luck in Centralia. If I hadn't already driven ten times as much as I normally do this week, I might have gone to Centralia. If I have to drive through Renton one more time this week, I might end up at Western State Hospital.

Right now, I have $100 in my reloading budget. I'll be adding $200 a month to it, starting January 1.

If I can't find a police turn-in Rem 870 to buy soon, I may move that budget into reloading so I can get started sooner. That would give me $400 more.

If I do that, I'll have $700 minus whatever I spend tomorrow or online, in my reloading budget by January 1. So I want to sort my needs into 1) what I need to start reloading, 2) what comes later, 3) what I have, and 4) what I don't need based on choices I've made (reaming primers versus swaging, for example). So I did that. Tumbling is just about the only thing I identified that I don't need to have to start. My confidence level that I have this correct is pretty low but it should be a good, solid, first draft. I need to look through my written notes again and pick out those that relate to gear. I'll update the list after I do that. Please let me know your thoughts on as little or as much as you wish. Thanks!!! Here's what I came up with:

Needed to start:
Manuals
Hornady (I like V-Max)
Speer (I like SMK)
Hogdon (I'll be loading H-335 to start)

Cases:
Case gages
Primer pocket reamer
Primer pocket uniformer
Primer pocket go/no-go
Case trimmer
Deburring tool
Extra shell holder (for reaming primer pockets on drill press)

Press:
RCBS Rockchucker single-stage press, with slot for primer setup
RCBS primer arms: Large and small
RCBS Primer tubes with cotter keys
Hornady die set for .223/5.56 (new at LGS for $60)
Shell holder for .223/5.56

Powder Handling
Redding Powder measure, unsure about model
Powder measure stand: TBD
Beam scale: RCBS (I have a line on one in good condition)

Miscellaneous
Bullet puller - Kinetic
Stuck case remover???
Reloading Bench
Overhead light fixture
Spot lighting
Fire Extinguisher
Smoke Detector
Covers for press, powder dispenser, scale, ???
Coffee pot
Storage cabinet
Powder storage box

Consumables
Case lube: TBD
Primers: Small rifle. Best deal I can find on good quality
Powder: H-335

Not needed to start:
Dry Tumbler
Media
Media separator
Media polish

Already have (enough to start, anyway):
Bullets: 150x Hornady 53-grain V-Max
Brass: 1,000+ .223/5.56, all with primer crimps to be removed
Calipers
Loading blocks
Powder funnel
Tweezers and picks
Punch set
Dryer sheets


Not needed:

Primer pocket swager
Priming tool

Skip the vibratory tumbler and find a used FART. You won't want to go back after wet tumbling.

I actually wet tumble off the lube and dry in my dehydrator... on stuff I process.

Part of that rationale is I use a Dillon Trim Die and the wet tumbling knocks the rough edges off the case mouth. Oh, and the bling.

Dry tumbling makes too much dust, and my reloading setup is in the basement now. Last thing I want to that crap coating everything.

I have two dry tumblers and an RCBS ultrasonic I haven't used since getting the FART.

OP should add an RCBS ChargeMaster powder dispenser to his wish list. There are a few up for bid on Ebay you might be able to get for a couple hundred dollars. Life changing for load workups and difficult to measure powders like 800x and Varget.

Scheels has the "Lite" version for $250. I'm sure you could get one off the EE pretty cheap when someone decides to upgrade too.

Start up costs for the tools, equipment, and supplies are nothing to sneeze at. Add in multiple calibers and those costs increase a little more...

If that were 'my' budget (and overall situation wise as for tools and such) - I would set aside half of it each month and call it an 'emergency fund'.

That fund is to be used only for when you see things you would normally use on some sort of 'super sale' or something that was too good a price to NOT buy bigly at if... You had an 'emergency fund' set aside for that sort of emergency.

:)


That and a part time job for more of a budget.

Thanks for the feedback. Today, I'm taking the $100 I have now to a nearby gun show in the hopes of finding a good used RCBS Rockchucker to buy and come home with at least $20 of my budget intact. I'm not sure how what I'm doing is any different from what you're recommending?

It's not about income. It's about being put on a budget by my accountant wife after I spent way too much money on firearms and hunting this year. It is not a reflection of our overall situation by any means. We use most of our cash resources to buy rental properties and are building a nice collection to leave to our kids. It's about priorities; not ability.

I'm in no rush. I wasn't even planning to get started in reloading until next winter. When I got the chance to get trained by an expert, though, I leaped at it. I won't possibly be able to shoot up all the ammo I have before I assemble all the gear, so I don't need to get it going to feed our firearms. My only time pressure comes from my being anxious to get started.

Looking at your 'list of stuff' you want and considering that you said you had 100 on hand for now and were planning to budget 200 per month going forward -

You are going to be a long, long time before you even have half of what you 'need' tool wise to be able to reload anything and several years longer before you have any sort of component inventory to reload out of. (the tools are pretty much useless if you have no components to feed them with)


The longer it takes you to get set up and equipped to do your own loading - The longer it will take you to be able to save money (depending on the particular ammo the 'savings' could be a little bit or a LOT) on your average ammo 'use' expenses... :)



Not suggesting to run up any debt to get your tools sorted out or anything like that but I will suggest that anything you can do to speed up how quickly your budget will allow you to fund your basic minimums of stuff you will need - The faster you will be able to save money on whatever the usual number of rounds you shoot each month is.

AND the faster you will be able to produce for yourself more accurate ammo for said firearms you want to go shoot... :)

Savings are at least a dollar per round on this one for me:


Taking that to the range and shooting off 100 factory rounds would eat up a good bit over 100 dollars.

Example: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=235

$51.74 for 20 rounds. :(

If I load my own (using the same exact bullets, brass, etc.) it's way closer to 25 cents per round.






Don't blame budget shit on your wife.  

Explain to her what you want to do, how you plan to work extra if needed to pay for it and then make it happen.







:)

Thanks. It is what it is. It will take as long as it takes.

I'm not blaming anything on anybody. We're a partnership and it's worked well for 45 years. This is what we agreed to and it's what I'm doing. We're not poor, we're frugal. We've been up and down financially over the past four-and-a-half decades. So while we're set for life now, we still manage our money very closely because no one knows what will happen in life.

I appreciate what you're saying and it's all true (well, except for that blame thing) but it just doesn't align with my circumstances.

I won't need to buy any ammo before I get my reloading gear together. I have several thousands of rounds and I'm saving every piece of brass.

That having been said, once I figure out the total cost of everything I need, I may ask to get my 2024 allowance in a lump sum in January rather than doled out over the year.

I found a shotgun today for a hundred bucks. By the time I pay for shipping and transfer fees, I'll spend about $200 on it. That immediately frees up another $200 for my reloading fund. That gives me $500 by January. I should be able to get  the press, a powder dispenser and stand, scales, a set of dies, and a few other odds and ends with that, if I'm smart with my spending. That will get me a ways down the road in the next month if she doesn't go for the advance idea.

Yes sir, you did. My bad. I will update the list accordingly.

Sounds good to me. Yeah, the show was small. 90% of it was firearms, though. If I had been looking for a gun, I would have been quite pleased. Now I know.

I'll get the dies and see you in IM.

Thanks!!!!!!!!

When I wrote that, I was thinking of the little can of paste case lube we used when we sized the replacements for the brass I reamed out of spec. You know, the stuff I got all over your press handle.

I forgot about the spray bottle and the brass-in-a-tray step when I wrote that. I love making my own stuff when I can. I grow most of our food, bake bread, culture yogurt, ferment pepper sauces and veggies, and on and on.

I've read through my notes twice but I still need to transcribe them into a document and then organize it. As much to impress the information on my brain more fully by going through it line-by-line and having to think about how to organize it as to have it after.

Updated List:
Needed to start:
Manuals: $100 to $115
Hornady (I like V-Max): $45-50
Speer (I like SMK): $45-50
Hodgdon, 2024 (I hope to be loading H-335 to start): $10-15

Cases:
Case gages: Unknown
Primer pocket reamer: Hornady 390750 Primer Pocket Reamer and coupling nut: $20
Primer pocket uniformer: Hornady Primer Pocket Uniformer, Small and coupling nut: $30
Primer pocket go/no-go check: Ballistic tools Small and Large Primer Pocket Gauges: $30
Case trimmer: TBD
Deburring tool: TBD
Extra shell holder: (for reaming primer pockets on drill press) ?

I'm recalling my problem with removing primer crimps and over-reaming the pockets on almost 20% of the brass. I was thinking I could chuck the reamer in my drill press, center the shell holder on the plate, adjust the stop on the drill press to the appropriate depth, then go to town on the primer pockets. I see the shell holder, once centered properly, as an easy way to keep the shell centered and aligned with the center axis of the reamer. I would still hold the brass solidly with my fingers, like I did with your setup. I think I mentioned it once during training but we covered so much ground and we got behind due to my crimped brass. I figured there'd be time to get back to it and here it is. Good idea? Bad idea?

Press:

RCBS Rockchucker single-stage press, with slot for primer setup: $80-90 in good condition.
RCBS primer arms: Large and small: $ Unk
RCBS Primer tubes with cotter keys: $ Unk
Hornady die set for .223/5.56: $60
Hornady Shell holder for .223/5.56: $ Unk

Powder Handling

Redding Powder measure: Likely solution being discussed. $ Unk
Powder measure stand: TBD. $ Unk
Beam scale: RCBS: Scale identified, seller holding it for me. $ Unk

Miscellaneous yes to all with notes
Bullet puller - Kinetic: TBD. $ Unk
Stuck case remover: TBD. $ Unk
Reloading Bench: TBD. $ Unk
Overhead light fixture: TBD. $ Unk
Spot lighting: TBD. $ Unk
Fire Extinguisher: TBD. $ Unk
Smoke Detector: TBD. $ Unk
Coffee pot: TBD. $ Unk
Storage cabinet: TBD. $ Unk
Powder storage box: TBD. $ Unk

Consumables

Case lube: Dillon or Franklin Arsenal, for the bottle, then home-made ... like dryflash did. $16. I see why people make their own.
Primers: Small rifle. Likely at the next show when I have cash in my pocket. $ 100
Powder: H-335, if I can find it, or Tac, CFE-223, BLC2, W-748, or A-2230. I'll look at the manual and make a list. I'll also look at 77 grain bullet data and see if any of teh powders I listed will work with the heavier stuff. $ Unk

Aye aye. My desire to start with H335 is this: When I get started, the first thing I want to do is replicate exactly what you and I did together during training, the shoot it at the same 25 yard range, and make sure I can repeat our work together on our own. If not, I'd like to do it again until I get it right. Then develop the load from there. All of which I would call my first trick as a reloading pony. Then I'd like to get to work on a 77 grain SMK load. Somewhere in there, I'm going to be looking for a set of .300 BO dies and a set of 6.5mm Grendel dies and ...

Not needed to start:

Dry Tumbler
Media
Media separator
Media polish

Already have (enough to start, anyway):

Hodgdon Manual, 2023
Bullets: 150x Hornady 53-grain V-Max
Brass: 1,000+ .223/5.56, all with primer crimps to be removed
Calipers
Loading blocks
Powder funnel
Tweezers and picks
Punch set
Dryer sheets
Covers for press, powder dispenser, scale, etc.: Large plastic bags
Lemi-Shine

Not needed:

Primer pocket swager
Priming tool

If that was Imperial sizing wax -

Then yes, That stuff was 'better' than any home / spray on stuff.

In my opinion that stuff (the Imperial) is as slick as one can possibly get with the least amount of product / residue that is left behind.

Suggest trying both with your particular dies and cleaning tools before making your choice on what to stock.