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MN, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 8:34:51 PM EDT
[#1]
I bought 10k worth from Scheels and Bass pro. Although I don't have the same lot number identified earlier in the post, I'm definitely going to be taking note.
I'll be loading up with some virgin SMP-842. Anybody wanna "hold my beer" 😂 |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 8:36:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Thanks for posting this OP. I bought 10k of these #41 primers from BassPro in early Jan and loaded some rounds to check functionality/compare velocities. Just haven't had a chance to try any out yet.
It's going to be at least another month before making a trip to the range trip since I just had total knee replacement 2 days ago. I'll have to hobble into the garage to check lot numbers at some point too. |
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Posted: 4/5/2024 10:18:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tommee-boy-72: The inner radius on the punch has a too sharp of angle. That is what is causing this. Or the brass was not annealed before forming the cup. This actually might be the reason for this. It is another cost cutting thing some of these companies do to increase profits. Same as Federal does by not stamping the case head one last time to harden the head. That is why they have lose primers at the first loading. By not annealing the brass stock it will not stretch evenly. And that is why the radius is blowing out. Yeah sounds like a sharp radiusing problem or stress relief process problem. (Or both) Stuff will always give way at the weakest point, which will always be a corner or other stress concentration. Have heard of it before in Win rifle primers- were those large rifle ones though? And I bought a whole bunch of Win #41’s recently…great. Honestly have rarely used their reloading components, but have seen a lot of their factory Q3131 5.56 rounds fired- never seen primer issues or burn thru’s that I can recall, probably seeing 50-100k a year pretty typically fired without issue, so it isn’t like they can’t make good components. They supply a hell of a lot of military and govt contracts…I probably fired 5-10K or more myself yearly. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 4/5/2024 10:59:41 PM EDT
[#4]
The thing is Win does not supply LC with primers. They manage the LC plant. They make all the components there at LC. These would be commercial made primers for civilian market.
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Posted: 4/5/2024 11:18:30 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tommee-boy-72: The thing is Win does not supply LC with primers. They manage the LC plant. They make all the components there at LC. These would be commercial made primers for civilian market. Them running the Lake City plant is a recent development, Federal ran it for a long time prior. Winchester never sold “#41” marked primers until after they took over LC though. So the real question is whether the Win #41 primers came from the LC plant or not, I suspect they may have. Same as I suspect the CCI #41’s may have come from there. Who knows…. |
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Posted: 4/6/2024 12:29:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RWEIII: Great. I knew I should not have been lured in by the price, mine are Lot #….738 Mine are the same lot as yours. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/6/2024 10:35:43 AM EDT
[#7]
I have the same lot# as OP and will be calling Monday
https://www.winchesterguns.com/support/current-recalls-and-safety-announcements.html |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 4/6/2024 11:47:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Ardent_Resolve]
[#8]
Thank OP
I also ordered a bunch back in January on sale from Cabelas and half are F002-740 and the others are E002-727. No wonder these were being clearanced. ETA: I checked last night and there are still sleeves of them on the shelf 4/6. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/6/2024 12:25:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By steepdrop: I have the same lot# as OP and will be calling Monday https://www.winchesterguns.com/support/current-recalls-and-safety-announcements.html Have your loads done the same blowout on the primer as the OP? Paladin |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/6/2024 1:52:11 PM EDT
[#10]
No have not, but going to show My concern and mention this thread.
Maybe if enough people ask them about the concern of using these primers they will issue a recall, as they have been notified of defective primers. I only have 2 bricks & now do not want to use them. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/6/2024 3:24:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Strikefirst: Mine are the same lot as yours. I have yet to load any, you?? Recalls are not issued based on level of concern but actually having documentable issues. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/6/2024 4:05:02 PM EDT
[#12]
1. Were the punctures confined to 300 BO or were they in the 5.56 loads, as well?
2. What was the 5.56 load recipe? I ask because I have no frame of reference for the 300 BO load you are using. 2 a) Were these relatively hot loads? 2 b) What does GRT say is the peak pressure for these loads? I want to reiterate my earlier suggestion that you look at (measure) the cup thickness in the corner rather than the wall or base of the cup. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/6/2024 5:11:07 PM EDT
[#13]
If You do a google search other people have had issues using these primers.
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Posted: 4/6/2024 11:41:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tommee-boy-72: WIN is known for this. They have replaced bolts and all primers in the past. But my guess is they will not this time around. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2024 2:01:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: slowr1der]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: Same damn problem as 2013-2014. Yep, I quit buying Winchester primers after having this problem with their large rifle primers purchased around this time. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 11:41:41 AM EDT
[#16]
I've got a 5000 pack of these with lot number WLC22L022-693
Processed about 4500 cases with these primers. I'll get out next weekend and give them a try. |
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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:05:19 PM EDT
[#17]
Not yet
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2024 12:19:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: Winchester primers did the same thing when they switch from nickel plated to copper primers over twenty years ago. What is old, is new again... Yep, smoked the bolt on my brand new WOA upper, have not bought any Win primers since. |
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PCN
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Posted: 4/9/2024 1:20:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2grimjim]
[#19]
UPDATE 04/08/2024
Got an email from Taylor Rinehart at Winchester customer service. He asked for more pics of the damaged bolt and asked if I noticed any other "irregularaties". I sent pics... Waiting for a reply. |
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Posted: 4/9/2024 2:49:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: I've got a 5000 pack of these with lot number WLC22L022-693 Processed about 4500 cases with these primers. I'll get out next weekend and give them a try. i've loaded and shot 1 brick already with no blowouts or issues. i used them in some hotter 5.56 55gr loads and super and subsonic 300 blackout |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 6:19:38 AM EDT
[#21]
It looks like the original crimp wasn’t removed and the new primer crammed in there. That would explain the weakness on the side of the primer. Look how much crimp is there and how flat the primer is.
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PCN
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Posted: 4/10/2024 11:01:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2grimjim]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UncleRemis: It looks like the original crimp wasn’t removed and the new primer crammed in there. That would explain the weakness on the side of the primer. Look how much crimp is there and how flat the primer is. If this in reference to the pics of the defects I posted, then you are incorrect. The brass was recycled Top Brass. I have had issues with their crappy crimp removal in the past. Every piece of Top Brass (and any pick up brass I acqiure that has crimped primers) I run through my swaging tool. I do not cut the crimps out with a chamfer cutter. That's a very bad way to remove crimps becaust you are removing material from the base where it supports the primer. Even IF a primer goes in hard, that should not be enough to cause this type of failure. After dissecting on of the failed primers, I'm pretty convinced the root cause of the failure was that somehow, brass sheet stock for large rifle primers was inadvertantly used in the small rifle cup stamping operation. I't would be a very easy mistake to happen if the equipment operator failed to measure the brass stock before running it through the stamping machine. |
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Posted: 4/10/2024 12:46:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UncleRemis: It looks like the original crimp wasn’t removed and the new primer crammed in there. That would explain the weakness on the side of the primer. Look how much crimp is there and how flat the primer is. My primers blew out in brand new Lapua brass. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 12:01:21 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By STJ: I had some Winchester LPs do that to a Glock 21 I have. This was few years ago. Same here with a Glock 22 a few years ago. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 11:00:44 PM EDT
[#25]
I'm relieved to find the 4700 primed cases using the Winchester 41 primers seem to be fine. I shot these with a slightly over book max of 23.4 grains of 8208 under a 77 grain TMK.
Less than impressive accuracy but the conditions were less than ideal. 
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Posted: 4/15/2024 4:34:02 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: I'm relieved to find the 4700 primed cases using the Winchester 41 primers seem to be fine. I shot these with a slightly over book max of 23.4 grains of 8208 under a 77 grain TMK. Less than impressive accuracy but the conditions were less than ideal. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/1000003182-3187357.jpg Thanks for posting your results. Did you fire all 4700 or just the sampling shown? |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 3:11:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blowout: Thanks for posting your results. Did you fire all 4700 or just the sampling shown? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blowout: Originally Posted By carcrazysammy: I'm relieved to find the 4700 primed cases using the Winchester 41 primers seem to be fine. I shot these with a slightly over book max of 23.4 grains of 8208 under a 77 grain TMK. Less than impressive accuracy but the conditions were less than ideal. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/1000003182-3187357.jpg Thanks for posting your results. Did you fire all 4700 or just the sampling shown? And if the answer is "I fired all 4700", i would like to subscribe to your newsletter. |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 4:13:23 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blowout: Thanks for posting your results. Did you fire all 4700 or just the sampling shown? No sir. Just the 50 you see in the photo (lost one). I got a sleeve of these about a year ago. Never tried them before. I loaded them above max with a favorite load of mine. I'm planning on running more in the coming days. |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 7:01:42 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: No sir. Just the 50 you see in the photo (lost one). I got a sleeve of these about a year ago. Never tried them before. I loaded them above max with a favorite load of mine. I'm planning on running more in the coming days. Thanks for clarifying! |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 3:13:58 AM EDT
[#30]
@MallNinja531
@2grimjim You guys both mentioned lot numbers starting with “WCL”, are you sure they are not “WLC” ? All of mine are WLC, which would also make sense for “Winchester, Lake City”, just as a thought… I have WLC23F002-740, which I am guessing will be the same as the OP’s, unless it really was WCL. 8k of them, plus some more in relatively nearby lot numbers. Fuck me… Oh- and I found a second brick that was short a sleeve. So out of 18 bricks, 2 only had 900 primers. Nice QC…. Though I guess someone at Cabelas could have swiped them before shipping them off, since Winchester is not even taping the bricks closed…. At best, I need to test some from 4 different lot numbers, ASAP it looks like. Time to find my most beat to hell bolt it sounds like. Someone posted a list of known bad lots for their earlier primers, which I saved, so now I need to check those. Not cool… |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 3:29:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: tac556]
[#31]
Here is the GD thread talking about a similar situation with Win Large Rifle Primer (not #41’s or #34’s) where a list of bad lots was posted:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-/5-2719042/? Here is a cut and paste from the post that had the info: Originally Posted By rebeltex: It's a known bad lot. Here is a post from 24hrcampfire with a list of bad Winchester primer lot numbers. Originally Posted by fremont This post definitely got my attention, because 80% of the primers on my shelf are Winchester. 1. Is there a definitive list of defective lots? I cannot find anything on the Win site. 2. Are people just sending back primers regardless of Lot # and getting refunds? Here is a partial list at least that I found from several different posts on here, not sure how accurate it is but it's something to go on: Here's the list. Thanks to whoever provided it. CAL401G CFL486G CLL555G DAL594G DFL717G DHL766G DNL 837G DNL836G EAL234G GDL 225G GEL 250G DML834G WLR EAL234G WLRM Okay, here's what I've got. Once again, these lot numbers are simply ones that have been reported as problematic by internet posters. I have no way of knowing if the information is correct, or that other lots not listed are okay. It's your responsibility to contact Winchester for specific information. LOTS REPORTED BY USERS ONLINE: CAL401G CFL486G CLL555G DAL594G DFL717G DHL766G DNL 837G DNL836G EAL234G GDL 225G GEL 250G DML834G WLR EAL234G WLRM CLL555G CCL435G EHL067G DHL774G DHL788G DAL594G CAL401G GDL255G GFL284G DGL741G FEL255G DGL731G DKL801G HLL692G DHL765G DFL713G DLL826G DFL723G DEL690G CLL552G DGL747G CGL499G HKL687G |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 4:32:26 AM EDT
[#32]
And similar thread from a different forum, the 4th post shows a Win #41 primer lot that had some similar burn thru issues as well, lot #
WLC23D002-725… (which is the same lot as some of mine. Awesome…) https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/wlr-bad-lot-number.4120973/ |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 8:00:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: country_boy87]
[#33]
Ill have to check what mine are, Ive shot 500 rounds zero issues from it.
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:25:50 PM EDT
[#34]
@tac556
It was "WLC". Dyslexics Untie!!! 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:51:24 PM EDT
[#35]
No my brick isn't from those lots yall posted. Im gtg.
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Posted: 4/16/2024 10:25:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Spudnick]
[#36]
I bought 5k of these from Cabela's last summer, lot number on all are WLC23E002-732.
No issues in the couple hundred I've loaded and shot, but these reports make me want to sell them and replace with something different. Or maybe I'll just reserve them for AR fodder since bolts are cheap and easy to replace. Same with the 5k Winchester SPP I have... burn them through a 9mm AR or Glock. I even knew in the past they've had issues and thought it was all resolved by now. No more Winchester for me. Has anyone ever seen other manufacturers like CCI with issues like this? I can't recall any others with any popped primers. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 4:49:48 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spudnick: I bought 5k of these from Cabela's last summer, lot number on all are WCL23E002-732. No issues in the couple hundred I've loaded and shot, but these reports make me want to sell them and replace with something different. Or maybe I'll just reserve them for AR fodder since bolts are cheap and easy to replace. Same with the 5k Winchester SPP I have... burn them through a 9mm AR or Glock. I even knew in the past they've had issues and thought it was all resolved by now. No more Winchester for me. Has anyone ever seen other manufacturers like CCI with issues like this? I can't recall any others with any popped primers. I dredged thru the far corners of the internet last night, saw some comments about occasional similar problems with other brands, with Federal being named for some issues back in the 1980’s apparently. But Winchester was the main offender mentioned, and those were within the last 15-20 years or so. Mostly large rifle, but some mention was made of pistol ones as well. So basically, it is a Winchester problem…. And my problem apparently as well. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 6:17:21 AM EDT
[#38]
What about Winchester pistol primers?
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 8:41:24 AM EDT
[#39]
(For my own ability to remember here as much as anything) my lot number is WLC23E002-732
I will load up 100 and shoot them as soon as I get a chance... got a few other things in the queue first though. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 1:55:38 PM EDT
[#40]
@2grimjim
Any word back from Winchester? A thought - If you dissolve the pellet and maybe remove the anvil, you could ship the primer cups to Winchester without any HazMat concerns. If the brass is too thin in the corners or there are fatigue cracks because the temper was not correct, or whatever, they will have a sample of what went wrong. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 3:13:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: @2grimjim Any word back from Winchester? A thought - If you dissolve the pellet and maybe remove the anvil, you could ship the primer cups to Winchester without any HazMat concerns. If the brass is too thin in the corners or there are fatigue cracks because the temper was not correct, or whatever, they will have a sample of what went wrong. Or just send Winchester a fired primer that shows signs of the defect and let them reverse engineer the issue. When I received 10k of the #41 from Basspro, theere was 8 bricks of 1000ea and 20 separate sleeves. A couple of the sleeves were short of primers and I dug through the packaging and found the remaining primers loose in the shipping box. Make sure to do incoming inspection when you get an order shipped to you. Probably should do that if you buy at the LGS too. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 3:50:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blowout: Or just send Winchester a fired primer that shows signs of the defect and let them reverse engineer the issue. After firing, the defect is likely gone, burned out, vaporized by the escaping plasma & gases. Did OP ever detail the load he was using? In the distant past, every blow out I read about was with a pretty hot load. I only use Winchester primers for my 223 stuff. I don't use hot loads. I have never had a blow out (Winchester or otherwise). <-- knocks on wood. Having said all that crap, these events are terrible! |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 4:53:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blowout]
[#43]
I didn't think of it that way. Typically a failed part is requested back for analysis by the manufacturer.
I'm sitting on a bunch of these and hope that they don't exhibit the same failure mode.... or any failure mode for that matter. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:06:51 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By IHC53: What about Winchester pistol primers? I hope they are ok. I have about 1k large pistol I have not loaded yet. Now I am hesitant. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 2:29:18 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tac556: @MallNinja531 @2grimjim You guys both mentioned lot numbers starting with "WCL", are you sure they are not "WLC" ? All of mine are WLC, which would also make sense for "Winchester, Lake City", just as a thought I have WLC23F002-740, which I am guessing will be the same as the OP's, unless it really was WCL. 8k of them, plus some more in relatively nearby lot numbers. Fuck me Oh- and I found a second brick that was short a sleeve. So out of 18 bricks, 2 only had 900 primers. Nice QC . Though I guess someone at Cabelas could have swiped them before shipping them off, since Winchester is not even taping the bricks closed . At best, I need to test some from 4 different lot numbers, ASAP it looks like. Time to find my most beat to hell bolt it sounds like. Someone posted a list of known bad lots for their earlier primers, which I saved, so now I need to check those. Not cool If you test, please drop an update in here |
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