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WA, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2013 9:02:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Here is another security related safe question. Suppose you have a high quality TL-30X6 safe located in your garage. The safe is heavy being an X6, but if two men can move it in, two men can move it out given enough time and tools. The safe, as I am sure most X6's, does not have bolt down holes.
What can be done to PHYSICALLY secure the safe from removal from the premises. Ideas like building a cabinet around the safe will certainly buy extra time. I also thought of hardened bolts set in epoxy at a few locations near the base making it difficult to put on steel rollers. One can use some epoxy around the base of the safe but ideally I wonder about clever ideas that are not permanent. Obviously an alarm comes to mind. Thoughts to take X6 security to a higher level? |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2013 9:13:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Here is another security related safe question. Suppose you have a high quality TL-30X6 safe located in your garage. The safe is heavy being an X6, but if two men can move it in, two men can move it out given enough time and tools. The safe, as I am sure most X6's, does not have bolt down holes. What can be done to PHYSICALLY secure the safe from removal from the premises. Ideas like building a cabinet around the safe will certainly buy extra time. I also thought of hardened bolts set in epoxy at a few locations near the base making it difficult to put on steel rollers. One can use some epoxy around the base of the safe but ideally I wonder about clever ideas that are not permanent. Obviously an alarm comes to mind. Thoughts to take X6 security to a higher level? I would expect any safe to have or be available with bolt holes. Am I missing something? |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2013 9:20:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By robpiat:
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Here is another security related safe question. Suppose you have a high quality TL-30X6 safe located in your garage. The safe is heavy being an X6, but if two men can move it in, two men can move it out given enough time and tools. The safe, as I am sure most X6's, does not have bolt down holes. What can be done to PHYSICALLY secure the safe from removal from the premises. Ideas like building a cabinet around the safe will certainly buy extra time. I also thought of hardened bolts set in epoxy at a few locations near the base making it difficult to put on steel rollers. One can use some epoxy around the base of the safe but ideally I wonder about clever ideas that are not permanent. Obviously an alarm comes to mind. Thoughts to take X6 security to a higher level? I would expect any safe to have or be available with bolt holes. Am I missing something? The TL-30X6 in question, does not have bolt holes. Most TL-30X6 are likely used in a commercial environment such as a jewelry store Most commercial customers with such a level of security would likely have a monitored alarm system. |
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Posted: 6/25/2013 10:38:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: aklferris]
[#4]
Originally Posted By BGENE: Originally Posted By robpiat: Originally Posted By BGENE: Here is another security related safe question. Suppose you have a high quality TL-30X6 safe located in your garage. The safe is heavy being an X6, but if two men can move it in, two men can move it out given enough time and tools. The safe, as I am sure most X6's, does not have bolt down holes. What can be done to PHYSICALLY secure the safe from removal from the premises. Ideas like building a cabinet around the safe will certainly buy extra time. I also thought of hardened bolts set in epoxy at a few locations near the base making it difficult to put on steel rollers. One can use some epoxy around the base of the safe but ideally I wonder about clever ideas that are not permanent. Obviously an alarm comes to mind. Thoughts to take X6 security to a higher level? I would expect any safe to have or be available with bolt holes. Am I missing something? The TL-30X6 in question, does not have bolt holes. Most TL-30X6 are likely used in a commercial environment such as a jewelry store Most commercial customers with such a level of security would likely have a monitored alarm system. Have you never watched the show Masterminds? Professional thieves that target such safes in jewelry stores often have experience disarming alarms. They also bring torches. There was a cool episode where a thief & his oxyacetylene torch were thwarted by a safe w/ 1" thick copper under the steel plating. Unfortunately for the jewelry store owner, he shared a wall w/ a construction equipment rental company. The thief broke through the wall, "borrowed" a plasma cutter, and got away with the goods. Ever since I saw that episode, I've wondered what model of safe it was. Can you imagine the cost of 1" copper plating at today's prices? |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2013 11:42:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Many of the larger high security safes do not have bolt holes. Something weighing 4000+ lbs is difficult to move & transport. That said I can think of a few ways to make a crooks life more difficult.
1) Use thick angle iron or square tube close around the base bolted into the garage floor. 2) Epoxy 3) Cement poured around the base. 4) Make nice with the wife and then put it in the house. 
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Posted: 6/25/2013 11:52:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#6]
Originally Posted By robpiat:
I would expect any safe to have or be available with bolt holes. Am I missing something? That would be an optional feature that needs to be ordered before the build. We only provide anchor holes in safes that bear a TL label and weigh less than 750 lbs. That is the rules of UL687 regarding the manufacturer's requirements to assure a secure installation. You can do many things to provide external anchors, but you clearly leave those devices vulnerable to cutting. There is only one good answer, drill holes inside and install large anchor bolts (at least two 1/2" studs or bolts. There are anchor bolts now that come with the epoxy and certify a stupid amount of holding power if installed correctly. As for drilling an X6, it's a time consuming process. The ideal tool would be a Diamond Core Drill. They are NOT cheap, but they will do the job. You may find that a local equipment rental company will have the drills and the core bits. Call around! |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2013 2:19:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By robpiat:
I would expect any safe to have or be available with bolt holes. Am I missing something? That would be an optional feature that needs to be ordered before the build. We only provide anchor holes in safes that bear a TL label and weigh less than 750 lbs. That is the rules of UL687 regarding the manufacturer's requirements to assure a secure installation. You can do many things to provide external anchors, but you clearly leave those devices vulnerable to cutting. There is only one good answer, drill holes inside and install large anchor bolts (at least two 1/2" studs or bolts. There are anchor bolts now that come with the epoxy and certify a stupid amount of holding power if installed correctly. As for drilling an X6, it's a time consuming process. The ideal tool would be a Diamond Core Drill. They are NOT cheap, but they will do the job. You may find that a local equipment rental company will have the drills and the core bits. Call around! Diamond core bit or a carbide core bit and a auto feed magnet base drill would be be nice if you we're locked out of a safe! The setup could cost more then the safe though. |
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Posted: 6/26/2013 4:22:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#8]
I just Googled "diamond core drilling in (mytown)" and I see several hits for people in the area that do this as a contractor. Looks like it would be pretty easy to find a contractor with all the toys to do the drill for you. Obviously not real cool that some dufus gets to see you have a safe. But, it's prolly a cheap way to skin that cat....
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WA, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2013 7:36:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Thanks to everyone for the input.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2013 10:23:54 PM EDT
[#10]
I'm trying to find an Amsec BF6030 in my city to buy simply because of this thread.
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Posted: 6/27/2013 10:57:19 PM EDT
[#11]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy: My other hobby is flying giant-scale radio control aircraft. My current toy is a 40% scale Russian YAK 54, 121 inch wingspan, 157cc 2-cyl 2 cycle gas engine, 32" propeller, 17 servos, 43 lbs dry. It's a beast! I'm surprised you haven't been cited yet for violating Arfcom's Rules of Order. "Pictures or it didn't happen" |
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Posted: 6/28/2013 12:02:57 AM EDT
[#12]
Originally Posted By aklferris:
I'm surprised you haven't been cited yet for violating Arfcom's Rules of Order. "Pictures or it didn't happen"
You asked for it...  " />
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Posted: 6/28/2013 7:55:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Nice!
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Posted: 6/28/2013 2:08:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By aklferris:
I'm surprised you haven't been cited yet for violating Arfcom's Rules of Order. "Pictures or it didn't happen"
You asked for it... http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Desktop_zps69933bea.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/IMG_7967_zps1945b6e2.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/IMG_7880_zps6f7e8001.jpg</a>" /> Holy Crap!!! |
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USA
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Posted: 6/28/2013 3:42:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By aklferris:
I'm surprised you haven't been cited yet for violating Arfcom's Rules of Order. "Pictures or it didn't happen"
You asked for it... http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Desktop_zps69933bea.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/IMG_7967_zps1945b6e2.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/IMG_7880_zps6f7e8001.jpg</a>" /> Armament / Weapons Systems? |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2013 5:00:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Have you ever crashed it or had measureable damage on a takeoff/landing? How durable is it in those situations... I would think any damage has to hurt the wallet and the heart for something as cool as this! Nice! Thanks for sharing. First one this big I have seen up close.
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NY, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2013 5:54:07 PM EDT
[#17]
just took delivery of a Amsec TF6036 from a local security company.
very happy. 
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Posted: 6/28/2013 8:15:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Originally Posted By XRSIZE2ND:
Have you ever crashed it or had measureable damage on a takeoff/landing? How durable is it in those situations... I would think any damage has to hurt the wallet and the heart for something as cool as this! Nice! Thanks for sharing. First one this big I have seen up close. Sorry for letting this get off topic. Anyone have safe stuff, bring it. The big RC Airplanes are like eggs, when they hit hard they pretty much are junked. That Yak has never taken a dirt nap, ,but it's had a few close calls. The lightweight construction makes them fly awesome, but you get one crash per airframe. This airplane is a full-on acrobat, it can do anything. That 3W 157cc engine will pull out vertical and accelerate all the way up with over 18 HP twisting that 32 inch wind screw at 7000 rpm. It's a hobby like this one with the AR's, you can always spend more. Every part has a scale of junk to gold plated quality. A single servo has around 330 in-oz of torque, and cost around $135 each. It starts with a little electric airplane, then a small nitro, before you know it you're buying $1600 engines and a 16 foot trailer to haul the whole mess. It's a blast, just a ton of fun, but if you're a risk taker and pushing, you will be re-kitting way too often. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2013 8:41:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Safe Stuff? Always enjoy talking about safes.
How many claims/safes do you see at the factory under AMSEC's home burglary safe warranty, just a rough average (if you can provide), 5 a month, xxx per year? I was reading an article the other day about Tungsten (as I recall), it stated it was actually a ceramic and not a metal (I could be way off this is just want I remember), I thought of AMSECs magic ceramic nuggets, comments? I will probably come up with some more questions but the two above come to mind. |
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Posted: 6/28/2013 10:50:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#20]
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Safe Stuff? Always enjoy talking about safes. How many claims/safes do you see at the factory under AMSEC's home burglary safe warranty, just a rough average (if you can provide), 5 a month, xxx per year? I was reading an article the other day about Tungsten (as I recall), it stated it was actually a ceramic and not a metal (I could be way off this is just want I remember), I thought of AMSECs magic ceramic nuggets, comments? The actual claim rate of the lifetime warranty is more like 1-2 per month. It's always nice to see that most of the replacement safes are going out to replace safes that did well in fire or burglary conditions. We usually get photos and police or fire reports. Tungsten is an elemental metal. The physical properties are amazing. The hardness and tensile strength are extraordinary. Tungsten Carbide (WC) is the heart of most of today's point protection barriers in TL safe lock protection. Unfortunately, UL has developed techniques to beat the best WC discs. Most hard plates under the locks in TL safes use a ball-bearing nest protecting the lock and adjacent Relock device, and then there is a badass disc embedded in the plate under the lock's bolt. A peculiarity in UL Testing is that they treat the internal workings of the lock as no-man's-land, and they only attack the bolt of the lock at the point where it engages the locking system. The reasoning is that the lock is rated independently, and hence should not need to be subject to compromise testing on the safe. So, the drilling is focused n a small area, usually close the lock case end face where the bolt extends and blocks the Locking Bar in the Boltwork. These discs are typically round, and have evolved rapidly since 1994 with the onset of the 7-year retest cycle. Every test cycle has pushed the complexity and cost of the WC Discs up significantly. Current generation discs are made from annealed 4140 or 4340 tool steel, drilled with small deep holes that are filled with WC granules, the holes filled/sealed with ultra high temp silver-solder to lock in the WC, and then heat treated to Rc around 60. These are drill shattering discs have become so costly and technically difficult to make that most safe makers now buy them from a single source. Unfortunately, these WC Discs have reached physical thickness limits and absurd costs. Last retest cycle, I introduced a revolutionary new Hardplate design that works better, cost a fraction of WC discs, and... well ... let's just say it's patent pending. It's an "active" device, rather than a passive barrier. That's about all I can say about it... except locksmiths HATE it. Dave McOmie, a master safe cracker and world renowned teacher/publisher, has named it the "Diabolical" Hardplate. He is quite impressed with the unique approach. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2013 11:06:48 PM EDT
[#21]
I recently ordered an SF6036. At $2,229, what makes it any more secure than a Liberty Colonial 30, which is half the price? Aside from the four way bolt work found on the SF, but I read your previous posts saying 4 way bolt work isn't necessary.
I feel like I'm just paying for an imported safe with an Amsec label on it. I wanted to get a BF6030, but my local safe dealer said the fill material used in it doesn't provide much of any extra security. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 6/29/2013 9:44:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By BGENE:
Safe Stuff? Always enjoy talking about safes. How many claims/safes do you see at the factory under AMSEC's home burglary safe warranty, just a rough average (if you can provide), 5 a month, xxx per year? I was reading an article the other day about Tungsten (as I recall), it stated it was actually a ceramic and not a metal (I could be way off this is just want I remember), I thought of AMSECs magic ceramic nuggets, comments? The actual claim rate of the lifetime warranty is more like 1-2 per month. It's always nice to see that most of the replacement safes are going out to replace safes that did well in fire or burglary conditions. We usually get photos and police or fire reports. Tungsten is an elemental metal. The physical properties are amazing. The hardness and tensile strength are extraordinary. Tungsten Carbide (WC) is the heart of most of today's point protection barriers in TL safe lock protection. Unfortunately, UL has developed techniques to beat the best WC discs. Most hard plates under the locks in TL safes use a ball-bearing nest protecting the lock and adjacent Relock device, and then there is a badass disc embedded in the plate under the lock's bolt. A peculiarity in UL Testing is that they treat the internal workings of the lock as no-man's-land, and they only attack the bolt of the lock at the point where it engages the locking system. The reasoning is that the lock is rated independently, and hence should not need to be subject to compromise testing on the safe. So, the drilling is focused n a small area, usually close the lock case end face where the bolt extends and blocks the Locking Bar in the Boltwork. These discs are typically round, and have evolved rapidly since 1994 with the onset of the 7-year retest cycle. Every test cycle has pushed the complexity and cost of the WC Discs up significantly. Current generation discs are made from annealed 4140 or 4340 tool steel, drilled with small deep holes that are filled with WC granules, the holes filled/sealed with ultra high temp silver-solder to lock in the WC, and then heat treated to Rc around 60. These are drill shattering discs have become so costly and technically difficult to make that most safe makers now buy them from a single source. Unfortunately, these WC Discs have reached physical thickness limits and absurd costs. Last retest cycle, I introduced a revolutionary new Hardplate design that works better, cost a fraction of WC discs, and... well ... let's just say it's patent pending. It's an "active" device, rather than a passive barrier. That's about all I can say about it... except locksmiths HATE it. Dave McOmie, a master safe cracker and world renowned teacher/publisher, has named it the "Diabolical" Hardplate. He is quite impressed with the unique approach. So, if I read your comments correctly about how the lock is attacked in specific areas (and not in other areas) then the inclusion of a large glass relock becomes more of an advantage/necessity. The new hardplate approach sounds really interesting. I hope you can comment more at a future point and I would expect to see this innovation in 2014/2015/20?? Based on the cost comparison you mention this should provide AMSEC a competitive edge (I would assume). Can you say who the sole (or primary) supplier is for the WC. Another question I thought of, you mentioned the CSC were sort of competitive orphans (my choice of words), if anything, I would think the plate steel HS series would be poor sellers. The RF TL-30 seems to be more secure at a lower price point, the big HS plates are heavier, pricier, technically less secure, what am I missing here. As always, THANKS for taking time to comment! |
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Posted: 6/29/2013 10:59:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#23]
Originally Posted By BGENE:
So, if I read your comments correctly about how the lock is attacked in specific areas (and not in other areas) then the inclusion of a large glass relock becomes more of an advantage/necessity. The effectiveness of the Hardplate outside the magic disc is still a mean-ass drill barrier. A glass Relock Trigger is not all that necessary, nor effective. I won't say specifically, but there is a stupid easy way to defeat glass. Any good locksmith knows the technique. That's why you won't see primary locks protected only by glass. Glass is oversold due to limited awareness. These are some of the many advantages of being in the high security side, you know things that the guys that just weld sheet metal boxes don't. The new hardplate approach sounds really interesting. I hope you can comment more at a future point and I would expect to see this innovation in 2014/2015/20?? Based on the cost comparison you mention this should provide AMSEC a competitive edge (I would assume).
Precisely. Can you say who the sole (or primary) supplier is for the WC.
Chamberlain Security Another question I thought of, you mentioned the CSC were sort of competitive orphans (my choice of words), if anything, I would think the plate steel HS series would be poor sellers. The RF TL-30 seems to be more secure at a lower price point, the big HS plates are heavier, pricier, technically less secure, what am I missing here.
We make products that sell, the market drives the product mix. There is still a demand for plate safes like this. People have a fascination with lots of steel. Keep in mind that the sporting goods industry is not the only customer base. There are numerous other markets, all with specific needs. |
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Posted: 6/29/2013 11:08:20 PM EDT
[#24]
I wanted to get a BF6030, but my local safe dealer said the fill material used in it doesn't provide much of any extra security.
I suppose "much" is subjective, but I'm curious as to what type of dealer this was. Were they a safe company? Locksmith? Just a retailer that sells gun safes? |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2013 1:15:33 AM EDT
[#25]
Originally Posted By a1abdj:
I wanted to get a BF6030, but my local safe dealer said the fill material used in it doesn't provide much of any extra security.
I suppose "much" is subjective, but I'm curious as to what type of dealer this was. Were they a safe company? Locksmith? Just a retailer that sells gun safes? Bruck Safe Company. All they sell and service are safes since 1971. |
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Posted: 6/30/2013 1:22:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#26]
I'm surprised a safe company who actually works with safes told you that. As I said, "much" is certainly subjective. The fill material in the BF gun safes is nowhere near the strength of the materials found in the higher security safes. However, the fill they use, along with the inner steel liner, provides a much more substantial structure than a single walled safe with gypsum board stuck inside.
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WA, USA
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Posted: 6/30/2013 9:57:32 AM EDT
[#27]
I agree with Frank and "much" is subjective. It certainly does not equal a TL rate for equivalent security. I personally found it did not cost me that much more to move to a TL rated safe vs. a Sturdy with 4 gauge or upgraded Ft Knox, Etc.
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Posted: 7/1/2013 4:31:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#28]
We make no claims as to the effectiveness of the BF Gunsafe fill regarding penetration or burglary value. It's not real tough like concrete. I'm just being honest. It is primarily designed to act as a durable contiguous fire barrier with high retention hygroscopic water volume.
The key improvement over gypsum board is that there are no joints or gaps to pass hot gasses, nor a raw edge to propagate calcination failure. The concrete base matrix will not crumble and collapse like gyp boards do. Gypsum board is basically a powder (Calcium-Sulfate) laminated by paper and bonded by water molecules. In a fire, the paper is gone real early, then the gyp decays into the base raw powder form, which has no inherent structural integrity. This results in insulation breeches that basically end the fire protection value. If the material can retain it's structure, it will take longer to conduct enough heat to bring you to failure temperatures. The matter of 2 layers of steel does improve burglary resistance, because you have to cut thru two layers. It forces you to make a larger hole in the outer skin so you have ample working space to breech the inner liner steel. The cutaway samples have been "cooked" to act more hard so that people poking at it don't damage the display samples. We originally sent cutaway samples with the real material, and everywhere they went, they were destroyed by people trying to see how tough the material was with knives and other poking tools. After a short time, the expensive display samples looked like shit and were discarded. We make a more durable mix for the display samples now, and seal the open face with a hardener so they will last longer. Sorry if that seems deceiving, but it's not intended to demonstrate how strong the material is, it's provided to show the superior composite construction. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/1/2013 5:00:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Hi safeguy , why do amsec use hollow braid line to connect tempered glass plate to relocking mechanism ? Why dont use steel cable ?
Tl-30 Cf6536 safe |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 7/1/2013 7:26:18 PM EDT
[#30]
"After a short time, the expensive display samples looked like shit and were discarded."
Finally an explanation from the AMSEC Engineer we can all understand 
Just kidding and thank you for all the information you post. |
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Posted: 7/1/2013 7:55:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#31]
Originally Posted By Kahrmk9:
Hi safeguy , why do amsec use hollow braid line to connect tempered glass plate to relocking mechanism ? Why dont use steel cable ? Tl-30 Cf6536 safe The nylon cord is used so that if a torch is used to cut the door, the cable will melt and release the Relock Device(s). |
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Posted: 7/2/2013 9:27:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Tony-
Earlier in this thread (page 3), you discussed the relockers available on the CFX series safes. Then, you mentioned that glass relockers are easily bypassed. What relocking systems are utilized in the RF6528? Is there any advantage to upgrading anything on the RF? Believe it or not, there are some people on this forum that could buy a nice house with their firearms investment (go hang out in the class 3 forums and you'll see what I'm referring to), but I am not one of those people (yet). I may or may not have written out $200 check(s) to the ATF, and I am very interested in not loosing the items that I do own. If a person were to hook up one of those shock sensors to their home alarm as mentioned earlier, would they then have to protect the wire coming out of the safe? If the thief can get access to the wire, it seems fairly simple to bypass. |
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Posted: 7/2/2013 10:46:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Originally Posted By aklferris:
Tony- Earlier in this thread (page 3), you discussed the relockers available on the CFX series safes. Then, you mentioned that glass relockers are easily bypassed. What relocking systems are utilized in the RF6528? Is there any advantage to upgrading anything on the RF? Believe it or not, there are some people on this forum that could buy a nice house with their firearms investment (go hang out in the class 3 forums and you'll see what I'm referring to), but I am not one of those people (yet). I may or may not have written out $200 check(s) to the ATF, and I am very interested in not loosing the items that I do own. If a person were to hook up one of those shock sensors to their home alarm as mentioned earlier, would they then have to protect the wire coming out of the safe? If the thief can get access to the wire, it seems fairly simple to bypass. First thing's first. In my 25+ years in this industry, I have NEVER seen a single professional drill job on a rifle safe. It may happen, but I have not seen a single one, anywhere. The skill set, tools, experience it takes to do this is extraordinary. The real world is not Mission Impossible III, and that caliber of attack is almost 100% on commercial targets like Jewelry stores, Pawn shops and other high-value targets where the bounty has universal value. Keep in mind that, even though you may regard your collection as high value, the criminal still has to convert that to cash. Selling stolen guns is a low-class business, and none of that riff-raff would appreciate the technology and value of accessories you have poured into your weapon collection. To them, it's just a gun. That BCM bolt carrier group in your custom AR is just a chunk of common steel to them. The RF has a single spring loaded Relocking Device that would be triggered if the lock is attacked (again, low risk). However, that safe shares boltwork and all the hardware of teh AMVault line. That means the current model is now getting that new Active Hardplate. This is new technology, so even Ethan Hunt will be baffled by that thing. I would not be concerned with souping up my safe. You have extraordinary protection already... the odds you will need more are just too small to consider. |
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Posted: 7/2/2013 11:15:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy: The RF has a single spring loaded Relocking Device Is that a relocker in the lock itself that locks the bolt, or an external relocker that locks the boltwork? Just curious. Also, I asked this earlier but I think you missed it: Would there be any reduction in security to ask for the ESL10XL to be swapped for an ESL5? The idea behind this is to get the backlighting for use in a dark area. Thanks for your input. |
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Posted: 7/2/2013 11:31:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Originally Posted By aklferris:
Is that a relocker in the lock itself that locks the bolt, or an external relocker that locks the boltwork? Just curious. Also, I asked this earlier but I think you missed it: Would there be any reduction in security to ask for the ESL10XL to be swapped for an ESL5? The idea behind this is to get the backlighting for use in a dark area. That Relock device is in addition to the lock's internal device, and it blocks the boltwork. The ESL5 UL Listing is pending. When the Type 1 listing is issued, you will be able to install that lock on any safe of any rating. |
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Posted: 7/3/2013 6:04:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By aklferris:
I'm surprised you haven't been cited yet for violating Arfcom's Rules of Order. "Pictures or it didn't happen"
You asked for it... http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Desktop_zps69933bea.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/IMG_7967_zps1945b6e2.jpg</a>" /> http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/IMG_7880_zps6f7e8001.jpg</a>" /> You should check out this thread: RC stuff |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 7/3/2013 6:36:27 PM EDT
[#37]
I assume this is the new patent pending hard plate you mentioned recently.
That means the current model is now getting that new Active Hardplate. This is new technology, so even Ethan Hunt will be baffled by that thing. At some point I hope you can make some generic comments to share how this is an improvement over the former hard plate. |
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Posted: 7/3/2013 8:59:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#38]
Originally Posted By BGENE:
I assume this is the new patent pending hard plate you mentioned recently. That means the current model is now getting that new Active Hardplate. This is new technology, so even Ethan Hunt will be baffled by that thing. At some point I hope you can make some generic comments to share how this is an improvement over the former hard plate. As with any security technology, the security value is, to a large degree, in the unknown nature of the system. Until it is widely known and techniques for defeat are common knowledge, the system is not as statistically vulnerable. So, in a public forum it would be foolish to educate the small population of bad guys seeking this knowledge. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2013 9:15:57 AM EDT
[#39]
Would it help to leave a sealed one gallon container of water sitting inside if the safe? If the safe heats in a fire the water in the container will eventually boil and then rupture. The time it takes to boil off the additional water may keep the internal temperature down for a bit longer.
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Posted: 7/4/2013 3:26:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#40]
Originally Posted By bradleyswine:
Would it help to leave a sealed one gallon container of water sitting inside if the safe? If the safe heats in a fire the water in the container will eventually boil and then rupture. The time it takes to boil off the additional water may keep the internal temperature down for a bit longer. I doubt that would help in that manner. The extraordinary heat capacity of the water would prevent the rupture of the container. Some time try and old trick I was shown in Boy Scouts. Take a plastic or Styrofoam cup full of water, and place it on the grill over the campfire. You will be shocked to see that the cup will not melt away and spill the water! The water is so effective at absorbing the heat energy that it prevents the container from getting hot enough to melt on the inside surface. This phenomena highlights the extraordinary properties of water as an energy sink as it absorbs energy to break the molecular bonds that allow the steam release. Adding water is a way to improve fire response. If you wet-soak drywall before fire exposure, it can add considerable fire resistance because of the increased steam capacity before calcination starts (Calcination is the high temperature decomposition of the gypsum board that releases tons of steam). That little tidbit should give you a clue about how some of those video fire comparison demonstrations can be "fixed". This is why UL will not test a firesafe when it arrives. They have a 30-day dry & cure period after they receive the test specimens(s) before they will schedule a test. In addition, a free water release in the safe would not help much unless it soaked the insulators. Inside the safe, the temperature gradient from the floor to the ceiling is far greater than you can imagine. In most tests, even to failure, the floor of the safe remains in good condition (except for the debris that piles up on it as the interior stuff melts and falls apart.) You would be shocked to see how the bottom edge of a safe, even in a UL test, survives pretty well. I have seen the intumescent door seals at the bottom edge of the door survive where they never reached reaction temperatures (a bit over 400ºF). So, bottom line, even an open pail of water on the floor would not add much to fire resistance, except that it would keep relative humidity high and insure a higher level of moisture in the insulators. Remember, the drywall is always wetting and drying with the ambient humidity. That's where a dehumidifier inside a safe is detrimental to some degree, as it drys out the drywall insulation as it dries the air. This is why a Goldenrod is better than a dehumidifier or desiccant. The marginal difference is probably not huge, and I don't know of any tests to prove the degree of differences. |
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Posted: 7/4/2013 7:50:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: T-800]
[#41]
Originally Posted By bradleyswine:
Would it help to leave a sealed one gallon container of water sitting inside if the safe? If the safe heats in a fire the water in the container will eventually boil and then rupture. The time it takes to boil off the additional water may keep the internal temperature down for a bit longer. If you're willing to do this, why not install a fire sprinkler head inside your safe, near the top. Provided you get the contents out soon enough, it's almost like getting caught in the rain or falling in the drink. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2013 8:06:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Originally Posted By T-800:
Originally Posted By bradleyswine:
Would it help to leave a sealed one gallon container of water sitting inside if the safe? If the safe heats in a fire the water in the container will eventually boil and then rupture. The time it takes to boil off the additional water may keep the internal temperature down for a bit longer. If you're willing to do this, why not install a fire sprinkler head inside your safe, near the top. Provided you get the contents out soon enough, it's almost like getting caught in the rain or falling in the drink. Or just in your room. Then the fire proof safe never gets hot enough to try all this technology. |
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Posted: 7/4/2013 8:20:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Originally Posted By robpiat:
Originally Posted By T-800:
Originally Posted By bradleyswine:
Would it help to leave a sealed one gallon container of water sitting inside if the safe? If the safe heats in a fire the water in the container will eventually boil and then rupture. The time it takes to boil off the additional water may keep the internal temperature down for a bit longer. If you're willing to do this, why not install a fire sprinkler head inside your safe, near the top. Provided you get the contents out soon enough, it's almost like getting caught in the rain or falling in the drink. Or just in your room. Then the fire proof safe never gets hot enough to try all this technology. Or, instead of the entire room, direct a single head (or more if your water supply is adequate) onto your safe. The heads will function to provide exposure protection rather than suppression (see NFPA 15). The water actively cools the safe. As with everything in a fire scenario, your taking measures to buy time. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2013 11:14:03 PM EDT
[#44]
I just wanted to say thanks to TheSafeGuy for his candor and wealth of information he has shared in a short time. I definitely feel that I am much better informed and will be able to make a better purchase decision in the weeks to come. :)
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Posted: 7/4/2013 11:48:10 PM EDT
[#45]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy: As with any security technology, the security value is, to a large degree, in the unknown nature of the system. Until it is widely known and techniques for defeat are common knowledge, the system is not as statistically vulnerable. So, in a public forum it would be foolish to educate the small population of bad guys seeking this knowledge. Once the details of the new disc are known, will it still be better than the more expensive tungsten carbide disc that it replaced? UL's ability to demand all info on inner workings of a safe being tested seems to indicate that they feel physical security, based on secrecy, isn't good security. Where am I going wrong? Speaking of UL testing, does Amsec have to submit their safes to new testing now that the hard plate has been changed? |
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Posted: 7/5/2013 12:55:08 AM EDT
[#46]
Once the details of the new disc are known, will it still be better than the more expensive tungsten carbide disc that it replaced?
As new safe technology is invented, new tools and techniques are developed to defeat it. It has been the same throughout the entire history of safe construction. One of the things that fascinates me about some of the new "hard plates" is that they are not plates of metal at all. |
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Posted: 7/5/2013 12:14:46 PM EDT
[#47]
Originally Posted By aklferris:
Once the details of the new disc are known, will it still be better than the more expensive tungsten carbide disc that it replaced? UL's ability to demand all info on inner workings of a safe being tested seems to indicate that they feel physical security, based on secrecy, isn't good security. Where am I going wrong? Speaking of UL testing, does Amsec have to submit their safes to new testing now that the hard plate has been changed? Who said the new Hardplate design uses a disc? When I refer to secrecy, it's more about commercial exposure, not UL. They have all the intel they need or want. The other, more important concern is the competitive issue. The longer you can preserve the key attributes of a new technology, the longer you retain an advantage. The new Hardplate was included as test option I included in our regular 7-year retest cycle. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2013 12:19:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By aklferris:
Once the details of the new disc are known, will it still be better than the more expensive tungsten carbide disc that it replaced? UL's ability to demand all info on inner workings of a safe being tested seems to indicate that they feel physical security, based on secrecy, isn't good security. Where am I going wrong? Speaking of UL testing, does Amsec have to submit their safes to new testing now that the hard plate has been changed? Who said the new Hardplate design uses a disc? When I refer to secrecy, it's more about commercial exposure, not UL. They have all the intel they need or want. The other, more important concern is the competitive issue. The longer you can preserve the key attributes of a new technology, the longer you retain an advantage. The new Hardplate was included as test option I included in our regular 7-year retest cycle. I assume other mfgs buy your products and take apart, kind of reverse engineering, theft of design. I am thinking mainly foreign competitors. |
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Posted: 7/5/2013 1:28:47 PM EDT
[#49]
Originally Posted By BGENE:
I assume other mfgs buy your products and take apart, kind of reverse engineering, theft of design. I am thinking mainly foreign competitors. Yea, I'm sure they do. This is a closed industry, not much publicity on the news. I am probably sparking interest by opening the door in this very discussion. That's what patents are for. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 7/6/2013 12:24:47 AM EDT
[#50]
Now cover that plate with multiple uni-directional vapor depositions from a pure C13/C14 source target and see Ethan Hunt turn the drill on himself in frustration.
Probably way too expensive for a production product though. |
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