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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/6/2024 10:23:36 AM EDT
[#1]
Thanks for the response about parts updates on the SP9A3. I just emailed GO asking for a replacement bolt (did their “upgrade” program.)
Will they require me to send in my old bolt before a new one arrives? I don’t like the idea of not having a working gun in the meantime. I’d be happy to pay for the bolt then get refunded when they get my old one back. But it is what it is. I’ve liked through this thread but won’t see any pictures of the new “upgraded” bolt compared to the old one, does anyone have any pics comparing the two bolts (pre 4000 serial and post 4000?) What are the differences? When I got my new angled locked I wonder why they didn’t send me an upgrade bolt….? This was probably two years ago FWIW. Thanks |
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USA
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Posted: 2/6/2024 10:28:39 AM EDT
[#2]
My SP9A3 was in the effected range but had all the upgrades from the distributor.
Global said a lot of inventory was at distributors and was sent back for the fix and then returned to the distributors to sell. My locking piece was not marked US but was marked .45. The replacement bolt will not have the serial number on it. Mine was good to go, I just ordered the HBI buffer. |
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Posted: 2/6/2024 10:31:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By azscooby: Thanks for the response about parts updates on the SP9A3. I just emailed GO asking for a replacement bolt (did their “upgrade” program.) Will they require me to send in my old bolt before a new one arrives? I don’t like the idea of not having a working gun in the meantime. I’d be happy to pay for the bolt then get refunded when they get my old one back. But it is what it is. I’ve liked through this thread but won’t see any pictures of the new “upgraded” bolt compared to the old one, does anyone have any pics comparing the two bolts (pre 4000 serial and post 4000?) What are the differences? When I got my new angled locked I wonder why they didn’t send me an upgrade bolt….? This was probably two years ago FWIW. Thanks Actually, if there isn't a comparative photo here, there should be. Google find it and post it for us? (Living up to my username baby!l |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/6/2024 11:28:41 AM EDT
[#4]
I did find an image back a few pages, but I’m at work and not computer savvy enough to repost, but it’s there.
It’s hard to tell what the actual differences are however, even with a side by side. I can’t tell if some of the very minor differences are intentional or just poor machining. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 2/7/2024 10:50:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By azscooby: I did find an image back a few pages, but I’m at work and not computer savvy enough to repost, but it’s there. It’s hard to tell what the actual differences are however, even with a side by side. I can’t tell if some of the very minor differences are intentional or just poor machining. If you aren't having issues you may want to consider leaving it alone. My original trouble free A3 never worked again after the bolt update, would gouge the heck out of the rails within about 50 rounds 3 separate times. GO did eventually replace it but it was a huge pain. YMMV of course, this was years ago, maybe they have a better idea of the issue now. |
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Posted: 2/18/2024 12:11:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Welp, just bought a yhm r9 for a gun I don't even own yet. Planning to get an a3 but wanted to try my luck at batch approvals for form 4's. Who has the best price on 8" a3 setups right now?
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/18/2024 11:29:20 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fivepointoh: Welp, just bought a yhm r9 for a gun I don't even own yet. Planning to get an a3 but wanted to try my luck at batch approvals for form 4's. Who has the best price on 8" a3 setups right now? Waiting on my R9 to clear as well. Only about a month in… Gunzone deals usually has the best Bog prices. I think I paid like $780 or so for mine shipped. |
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Posted: 2/21/2024 7:51:27 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 2/22/2024 8:54:50 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sticklebackbob: What’s the reliability of these newer sp9a3 guns? The price and roller delay have me seriously interested. Would you trust your life to one, or is it a cool range toy? As I found with my son's, the bolt hold open spring is a tiny piece of wire that likes to slip off to the side and lock the gun up. The "fix" is to continuously bend the wire to where it rides along the narrow edge of the receiver. The thought of a serious work or defense-related firearm and this issue are not compatible for me. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2024 9:25:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: As I found with my son's, the bolt hold open spring is a tiny piece of wire that likes to slip off to the side and lock the gun up. The "fix" is to continuously bend the wire to where it rides along the narrow edge of the receiver. The thought of a serious work or defense-related firearm and this issue are not compatible for me. Weird because there is military and loads of LE use for them and they seem to be doing just fine. I’d absolutely use mine for defense and not be concerned with reliability in the slightest with the Gen 2 Lingle lower. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:33:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Just ordered a sp9a3s. Ordered from gunzonedeals, so it might take a while to ship. Can’t wait to throw my r9 on it.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2024 10:37:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By xring04: Just ordered a sp9a3s. Ordered from gunzonedeals, so it might take a while to ship. Can’t wait to throw my r9 on it. Ordered mine from there as well. Only took a day or two to ship. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 1:09:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Ordered mine from there as well. Only took a day or two to ship. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Originally Posted By xring04: Just ordered a sp9a3s. Ordered from gunzonedeals, so it might take a while to ship. Can't wait to throw my r9 on it. Ordered mine from there as well. Only took a day or two to ship. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 2:03:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Weird because there is military and loads of LE use for them and they seem to be doing just fine. I’d absolutely use mine for defense and not be concerned with reliability in the slightest with the Gen 2 Lingle lower. To be honest Euro military and police utilization doesn't really count as "hard use" to me. 50 rounds a year plus a bit of carry time. The fact that the gun can potentially lock back on every shot due to a piece of wire thinner than a paperclip is concerning. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 2:26:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: To be honest Euro military and police utilization doesn't really count as "hard use" to me. 50 rounds a year plus a bit of carry time. The fact that the gun can potentially lock back on every shot due to a piece of wire thinner than a paperclip is concerning. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Weird because there is military and loads of LE use for them and they seem to be doing just fine. I’d absolutely use mine for defense and not be concerned with reliability in the slightest with the Gen 2 Lingle lower. To be honest Euro military and police utilization doesn't really count as "hard use" to me. 50 rounds a year plus a bit of carry time. The fact that the gun can potentially lock back on every shot due to a piece of wire thinner than a paperclip is concerning. In my experience, the Stribog is mechanically more reliable than the MP5. So there's that. Sorry you bent your wire. You can bend it back. It only will bend from user error in cleaning, not operation. They will fix that if you ask. But sure, it's a nuance that could be better. From what I can tell, it's not proving that big of a deal - though beware if you run a boresnake! Dismissing .gov issue usage and their lack of problems is convenient. To an agency with an an armorers wrench is a non item to maintain and correct right then when someone snags it and bends it while cleaning with over vigor on the bore snake. And Grand Power is happy to do that for you too - call them. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 2:51:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: In my experience, the Stribog is mechanically more reliable than the MP5. So there's that. In my experience, with at least 10,000 rounds through well used MP-5s, I’ve never had a malfunction in my MP-5 that was the gun’s fault (just a few broken frangible projectiles that didn’t feed). Every MP-5 issue I’ve seen in others’ guns was due to an extractor spring that was getting weak, pop in a new one and it’s runs fine again. Except for a couple idiots trying to feed .40 or .357 Sig rounds into one, which isn’t the guns fault. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 6:13:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: In my experience, the Stribog is mechanically more reliable than the MP5. So there's that. Sorry you bent your wire. You can bend it back. It only will bend from user error in cleaning, not operation. They will fix that if you ask. But sure, it's a nuance that could be better. From what I can tell, it's not proving that big of a deal - though beware if you run a boresnake! Dismissing .gov issue usage and their lack of problems is convenient. To an agency with an an armorers wrench is a non item to maintain and correct right then when someone snags it and bends it while cleaning with over vigor on the bore snake. And Grand Power is happy to do that for you too - call them. It's a terrible design flaw that can prove catastrophic in the field. That spring is also exposed in between the upper and lower, so actual real world use would insinuate the need for dirt, mud, brush or other materiel to be able to get in there without stopping all function of the weapon. If any mud gets in that recess and applies pressure on that spring it's all over. Post failure support from the armorer or manufacturer is something one should tout for toys, not for professional tools. Yes, at the range if the wire slips, bend it back. NBD. We were talking about real world viability. I've used MP5's in professional settings, as have a lot of people over the past 40+ years, so i'm sorry if i'll have to defer to that over your stated experience. With that said, i'm not a fan of the MP5 either. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2024 6:49:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TactiCoolBro]
[#18]
Right because MP5’s notoriously garbage extractor springs could never be an issue “in the field”. Literally have to change them at known intervals or it will burn you. But yeah let’s pretend MP5’s are perfect.
Love when you can always find the dude that’s convinced nothing is better than an MP5. Stribogs aren’t perfect. But MP5’s damn well aren’t either. Lingle Gen 2 lower uses its own bolt catch system that doesn’t require the spring you’re referring to. It’s bomb proof and even adding the cost of the lower, you’re still cheaper than an MP5. Except you’ll now have a gun that doesn’t have 30 year old features and magazines that cost a fraction of MP5 mags. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 6:51:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Would you go full size or S (k variant)? I'd love to have them both but that's not in the cards right now. As for my HK clones I vastly prefer my full size over my k variant.
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Posted: 2/23/2024 6:58:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Right because MP5’s notoriously garbage extractor springs could never be an issue “in the field”. Literally have to change them at known intervals or it will burn you. But yeah let’s pretend MP5’s are perfect. Love when you can always find the dude that’s convinced nothing is better than an MP5. Stribogs aren’t perfect. But MP5’s damn well aren’t either. Lingle Gen 2 lower uses its own bolt catch system that doesn’t require the spring you’re referring to. It’s bomb proof and even adding the cost of the lower, you’re still cheaper than an MP5. Except you’ll now have a gun that doesn’t have 30 year old features and magazines that cost a fraction of MP5 mags. Your lack of quotes are confusing and you seem to be responding to more than one person. I literally just stated I don't care for the MP5 either. Are these mil and police entities being cited earlier using Lingle Gen 2 lowers? I do not believe they are, and from what i've heard about the Lingle lowers they only recently fixed a lot of issues they were having. So lets not jump the gun and pretend the Stribog now has full fledged credibility as a viable real world tool. It's a fun toy. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2024 7:29:51 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Ordered mine from there as well. Only took a day or two to ship. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Originally Posted By xring04: Just ordered a sp9a3s. Ordered from gunzonedeals, so it might take a while to ship. Can't wait to throw my r9 on it. Ordered mine from there as well. Only took a day or two to ship. 
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Posted: 2/23/2024 7:52:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gunnut284: In my experience, with at least 10,000 rounds through well used MP-5s, I’ve never had a malfunction in my MP-5 that was the gun’s fault (just a few broken frangible projectiles that didn’t feed). Every MP-5 issue I’ve seen in others’ guns was due to an extractor spring that was getting weak, pop in a new one and it’s runs fine again. Except for a couple idiots trying to feed .40 or .357 Sig rounds into one, which isn’t the guns fault. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gunnut284: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: In my experience, the Stribog is mechanically more reliable than the MP5. So there's that. In my experience, with at least 10,000 rounds through well used MP-5s, I’ve never had a malfunction in my MP-5 that was the gun’s fault (just a few broken frangible projectiles that didn’t feed). Every MP-5 issue I’ve seen in others’ guns was due to an extractor spring that was getting weak, pop in a new one and it’s runs fine again. Except for a couple idiots trying to feed .40 or .357 Sig rounds into one, which isn’t the guns fault. So let's talk about MP5 Extractor springs now. Cause that's totally different and super OK. I ran two HK MP5's back to back, both of them were jammotatic POS that couldn't go 5 rounds. But Oh That's Different 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:56:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TactiCoolBro]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Your lack of quotes are confusing and you seem to be responding to more than one person. I literally just stated I don't care for the MP5 either. Are these mil and police entities being cited earlier using Lingle Gen 2 lowers? I do not believe they are, and from what i've heard about the Lingle lowers they only recently fixed a lot of issues they were having. So lets not jump the gun and pretend the Stribog now has full fledged credibility as a viable real world tool. It's a fun toy. Not my fault you’d immediately assume that my lack of quoting a post meant I had to be replying to you. It’s neat you feel that important though. Stribog is no more or less a toy than a B&T or MP5. They’ve ALL got shortcomings in one way or another. The Stribogs shortcomings can be fixed with a better lower that takes a better magazine and still be more affordable than the other 2 options. And as far as reliability or features I’d take it over any MP5 or B&T. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:08:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Not my fault you’d immediately assume that my lack of quoting a post meant I had to be replying to you. It’s neat you feel that important though. Stribog is no more or less a toy than a B&T or MP5. They’ve ALL got shortcomings in one way or another. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Not my fault you’d immediately assume that my lack of quoting a post meant I had to be replying to you. It’s neat you feel that important though. Stribog is no more or less a toy than a B&T or MP5. They’ve ALL got shortcomings in one way or another. Well, you absolutely were, to a degree, so try not to be a jerk about your own confusion. Originally Posted By TactiCoolBro: Lingle Gen 2 lower uses its own bolt catch system that doesn’t require the spring you’re referring to. With that said, a Stribog in factory format is absolutely a toy due to a design flaw that would completely prohibit it from being successfully used for real world use. The third party niche lower you describe to solve that problem is fairly new and comes at the heels of numerous other problems from that manufacturers products. Maybe it's solid, maybe not. The data still doesn't exist past casual range use. The MP5 and B&T have decades of legit real world applications that reach far beyond random internet users' anecdotal evidence, none of which encompasses actual real world use or even guarantees real factory guns. The Stribog isn't light years close to the validation level they are at. But if you taking yours to the range a handful of times solidifies your thoughts on it being good enough to risk your life with, good for you. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 10:01:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734:... But if you taking yours to the range a handful of times solidifies your thoughts on it being good enough to risk your life with, good for you. Anybody choosing to risk their life on any PCC 9mm is already kind of a dummy. In a world of Mk18 for comparable size for a 2-handed system, and vastly superior knockdown power (and reliability above ALL of them), all of the 9mm PCC's are actually toys - which the world has now passed by. And the USArmy SMG with all the fanfair? - yea they bought like 200 of them - total - has anyone ever actually seen one in service - anywhere? Do they even have an Army Designation name yet? It's for a very specific clean-service mission statement of security detail where discrete and light carry matters. And they sure didn't pick the MP5. They picked something that looks a lot like a Stribog, and made that pick before Stribog got their shit together. These are all basically toys, that work pretty F'ing good in the field - if you want to run a semi-auto 2-handed 9mm as your choice. Nobody serious actually does that anymore, but sure, if I were In Harms Way and the Stribog was handy - I'd totally trust my life to it with my mags and ammo. If I'm headed out the door, or staging something for "Serious Business" - it's not going to be a 2-handed 1-shot-at-a-time 9mm. The entire genre of a 2-handed 9mm only actually makes any sense when it's full auto. And even then, a Mk18 still kicks its ass. If I'm doing "Serious Business" Personal security detail, a side folding Stribog fast deploys and shoulders faster than a telescoping stock does and is a more comfortable better stock (again, point to factory Stribog over factory MP5). But no - nobody is crawling through mud In-The-Shit for 40 days and 40 nights with any of these 9mm PCC's any more. So Strutting with iffy comparisons focusing on that are kind of silly. Only Serious Business these will ever have today are clean-service discrete security detail going to the State Dinner Event. Where weight of carry also matters (again, point to Stribog over MP5). |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2024 10:11:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TactiCoolBro]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Anybody choosing to risk their life on any PCC 9mm is already kind of a dummy. In a world of Mk18 for comparable size for a 2-handed system, and vastly superior knockdown power (and reliability above ALL of them), all of the 9mm PCC's are actually toys - which the world has now passed by. And the USArmy SMG with all the fanfair? - yea they bought like 200 of them - total - has anyone ever actually seen one in service - anywhere? Do they even have an Army Designation name yet? It's for a very specific clean-service mission statement of security detail where discrete and light carry matters. And they sure didn't pick the MP5. They picked something that looks a lot like a Stribog, and made that pick before Stribog got their shit together. These are all basically toys, that work pretty F'ing good in the field - if you want to run a semi-auto 2-handed 9mm as your choice. Nobody serious actually does that anymore, but sure, if I were In Harms Way and the Stribog was handy - I'd totally trust my life to it with my mags and ammo. If I'm headed out the door, or staging something for "Serious Business" - it's not going to be a 2-handed 1-shot-at-a-time 9mm. The entire genre of a 2-handed 9mm only actually makes any sense when it's full auto. And even then, a Mk18 still kicks its ass. If I'm doing "Serious Business" Personal security detail, a side folding Stribog fast deploys and shoulders faster than a telescoping stock does and is a more comfortable better stock (again, point to factory Stribog over factory MP5). But no - nobody is crawling through mud In-The-Shit for 40 days and 40 nights with any of these 9mm PCC's any more. So Strutting with iffy comparisons focusing on that are kind of silly. Only Serious Business these will ever have today are clean-service discrete security detail going to the State Dinner Event. Where weight of carry also matters (again, point to Stribog over MP5). This is exactly why the US military hasn’t even bothered to buy more than a hand full of B&T’s. No one uses PCC’s for real use anymore. I’d absolutely trust my Stribog in a defense situation to run 100% if I needed it to. But it wouldn’t be my first choice. My 10.5” BCM SBR would probably be the first choice for a non full size rifle. But that’s why it cracks me up that people pretend like MP5’s are B&T’s are the end all be all of PCC’s. They both have shortcomings, even price aside. And even if they didn’t, no one gives a shit because the world has moved on from PCC’s for serious use anyway. This will be my final post on the subject, but bottom line for me is this: There’s not ONE PCC on the market, regardless of price, that doesn’t have weak points that are widely documented across various groups and users. While I WOULD use and trust my Bog for defense use if I needed to, it’s a toy for me. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:07:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: - has anyone ever actually seen one in service - anywhere? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: - has anyone ever actually seen one in service - anywhere? Yep, sure have. My last unit had B&T's and MP5's. I carried a UMP 45 for a while on my last combat deployment. But thank you for educating me on everything. Originally Posted By TactiCoolBro: But that’s why it cracks me up that people pretend like MP5’s are B&T’s are the end all be all of PCC’s. Nobody actually said that. What was said was that there is a serious history of issues with the Stribog and zero data behind any of the supposed fixes. That's a pretty big deal when making claims that something is GTG for "serious use". Changing the goalpost to suggest there is no such "serious use" for a PCC is a significantly different argument, one which you could have interjected earlier as a caveat before making the claim. At the end of the day you guys are just trying to justify your purchases, stepping well outside of your knowledge base to do so. There's no need to do any of that, just be happy with what you bought and leave the ridiculous rhetoric out of it. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:12:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Yep, sure have. My last unit had B&T's and MP5's. I carried a UMP 45 for a while on my last combat deployment. But thank you for educating me on everything. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: - has anyone ever actually seen one in service - anywhere? Yep, sure have. My last unit had B&T's and MP5's. I carried a UMP 45 for a while on my last combat deployment. But thank you for educating me on everything. Now I'm curious, what kind of unit and mission were you on? That's a very SMG heavy loadout, and consisted of percentage level measurable deployment of the entire US Supply of B&T's. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:16:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Now I'm curious, what kind of unit and mission were you on? That's a very SMG heavy loadout, and consisted of percentage level measurable deployment of the entire US Supply of B&T's. One UMP is a very heavy SMG loadout? That's a very unique perspective. I was doing a lot of work where a smaller weapon was much better suited and easier to manage. I also don't recall giving numbers for the B&T's, nor mentioning using it on deployment. So we can chalk that up to yet another unfounded assumption from you. I will tell you right now, if I had taken a factory Stribog to where I was on that deployment it would not have worked. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:24:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: One UMP is a very heavy SMG loadout? That's a very unique perspective. I was doing a lot of work where a smaller weapon was much better suited and easier to manage. I also don't recall giving numbers for the B&T's, nor mentioning using it on deployment. So we can chalk that up to yet another unfounded assumption from you. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Now I'm curious, what kind of unit and mission were you on? That's a very SMG heavy loadout, and consisted of percentage level measurable deployment of the entire US Supply of B&T's. One UMP is a very heavy SMG loadout? That's a very unique perspective. I was doing a lot of work where a smaller weapon was much better suited and easier to manage. I also don't recall giving numbers for the B&T's, nor mentioning using it on deployment. So we can chalk that up to yet another unfounded assumption from you. The unit. That's a lot of SMG's (3 brands listed) for one unit. That's a lot. The tone of the post suggested these weren't just onesies, so if you had 2 B&T's, that 1% of the entire US Military inventory. Obviously you haven't taken a shine to me - so your call to stay in the thread on about a particular brand gun to shit on it, or to follow-up; I'm honestly curious on your input now - as it sounds like you have a pretty interesting story and background. I'll even put the smarmy attitude on pause In general, SMG's tend to be relegated to nothings, yet not for your unit. So now I'm interested.
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:30:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: The unit. That's a lot of SMG's (3 brands listed) for one unit. That's a lot. The tone of the post suggested these weren't just onesies, so if you had 2 B&T's, that 1% of the entire US Military inventory. Obviously you haven't taken a shine to me - so your call to stay in the thread on about a particular brand gun to shit on it, or to follow-up; I'm honestly curious on your input now - as it sounds like you have a pretty interesting story and background. I'll even put the smarmy attitude on pause In general, SMG's tend to be relegated to nothings, yet not for your unit. So now I'm interested.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: The unit. That's a lot of SMG's (3 brands listed) for one unit. That's a lot. The tone of the post suggested these weren't just onesies, so if you had 2 B&T's, that 1% of the entire US Military inventory. Obviously you haven't taken a shine to me - so your call to stay in the thread on about a particular brand gun to shit on it, or to follow-up; I'm honestly curious on your input now - as it sounds like you have a pretty interesting story and background. I'll even put the smarmy attitude on pause In general, SMG's tend to be relegated to nothings, yet not for your unit. So now I'm interested.The MP5's were essentially non-deployable and were part of a weapons library, but anything is possible with an ETP. I didn't shit on anything. I pointed out a verifiable fact that is a legitimate reason why there would be reliability concerns for real world use with the Stribog. I just took one to the range last weekend, there's no way in hell I would take one overseas. I'm also not aware of where you came up with the comment "SMG's tend to be relegated to nothings", they exist for a reason, and the units that identified that requirement definitely aren't "nothings". Originally Posted By lazyengineer: I'll even put the smarmy attitude on pause You should start by not filling in your gaps in knowledge with made up nonsense. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:38:52 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: The MP5's were essentially non-deployable and were part of a weapons library, but anything is possible with an ETP. I didn't shit on anything. I pointed out a verifiable fact that is a legitimate reason why there would be reliability concerns for real world use with the Stribog. I just took one to the range last weekend, there's no way in hell I would take one overseas. I'm also not aware of where you came up with the comment "SMG's tend to be relegated to nothings", they exist for a reason, and the units that identified that requirement definitely aren't "nothings". Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: The unit. That's a lot of SMG's (3 brands listed) for one unit. That's a lot. The tone of the post suggested these weren't just onesies, so if you had 2 B&T's, that 1% of the entire US Military inventory. Obviously you haven't taken a shine to me - so your call to stay in the thread on about a particular brand gun to shit on it, or to follow-up; I'm honestly curious on your input now - as it sounds like you have a pretty interesting story and background. I'll even put the smarmy attitude on pause In general, SMG's tend to be relegated to nothings, yet not for your unit. So now I'm interested.The MP5's were essentially non-deployable and were part of a weapons library, but anything is possible with an ETP. I didn't shit on anything. I pointed out a verifiable fact that is a legitimate reason why there would be reliability concerns for real world use with the Stribog. I just took one to the range last weekend, there's no way in hell I would take one overseas. I'm also not aware of where you came up with the comment "SMG's tend to be relegated to nothings", they exist for a reason, and the units that identified that requirement definitely aren't "nothings". Can you please expound on what they are being used for, and what types of units are using them? Everything I read and see everywhere says SMG's aren't really deployed by militaries anymore, and the fact the USArmy only bought 200, kind of supports that. Your experience differs. Which means you apparently have a different experience than most everything I see, and apparently it's real. So I'm really interested. As to the rest - so both of our people-skills suck apparently. I've come to terms with it. Screw that part, I'm eager ears now - so would love to hear more from you. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:44:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TactiCoolBro]
[#33]
MP5 has an incredibly well known issue with garbage extractor springs. A problem that can also leave the gun dead in the field. (And probably has at some point to numerous people in said field 30 years ago when people actually used them for real ops beyond a hand full of dudes who use them on occasion today.)
But according to you the Stribog isn’t fit for field use because the LRBHO spring is junk. (A feature which the MP5 literally doesn’t even have which is an absolute joke in and of itself.) At least in the field you could simply yank the spring out and the gun will continue to function 100%, just without LRBHO. Can’t make this stuff up… Anyway, we get it. You’re a bad ass operator and clearly, in your eyes, you can overlook other guns blatant shortcomings and pretend Stribogs are the only PCC’s with issues. I meant my last post to be my last, but I can’t help but laugh at the ridiculousness of some of what you say. Anyways, off to bed for me. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:48:47 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Can you please expound on what they are being used for, and what types of units are using them? Everything I read and see everywhere says SMG's aren't really deployed by militaries anymore, and the fact the USArmy only bought 200, kind of supports that. Your experience differs. Which means you apparently have a different experience than most everything I see, and apparently it's real. So I'm really interested. As to the rest - so both of our people-skills suck apparently. I've come to terms with it. Screw that part, I'm eager ears now - so would love to hear more from you. UMPs were originally bought by 5th Group for NTV operations, they used them for a long time in the GWOT. Last I was with them they still had a bunch, but that's also where my unit got ours from. B&T's were bought by a couple SMUs for various things, mainly based around concealability. My unit always deployed us with 2 long guns, and I used the UMP because I was doing a lot of searching and clearance operations in an urban area. Even a MK18 gets in the way when you're on your hands and knees half the time or crawling through rubble. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 11:54:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: MP5 has an incredibly well known issue with garbage extractor springs. A problem that can also leave the gun dead in the field. (And probably has at some point to numerous people in said field 30 years ago when people actually used them for real ops.) But according to you the Stribog isn’t fit for field use because the LRBHO spring is junk. (A feature which the MP5 literally doesn’t even have which is an absolute joke in and of itself.) At least in the field you could simply yank the spring out and the gun will continue to function 100%, just without LRBHO. Can’t make this stuff up… Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: MP5 has an incredibly well known issue with garbage extractor springs. A problem that can also leave the gun dead in the field. (And probably has at some point to numerous people in said field 30 years ago when people actually used them for real ops.) But according to you the Stribog isn’t fit for field use because the LRBHO spring is junk. (A feature which the MP5 literally doesn’t even have which is an absolute joke in and of itself.) At least in the field you could simply yank the spring out and the gun will continue to function 100%, just without LRBHO. Can’t make this stuff up… The MP5 spring issue was solved by regular maintenance cycle replacement, which was at a round count usually well past a single deployment, usually 2-3. As such the gun has been in active service for 40+ years, and still is, with lots of combat time around it. It seems that issue wasn't as catastrophic as you claim. Originally Posted By TactiCoolBro: (And probably has at some point to numerous people in said field 30 years ago when people actually used them for real ops.) Probably, huh? So we're just making up more stuff now. Yet it stuck around for decades in units that had the option of literally anything else. Pulling the spring and still having 100% function is still a huge flex on your part, as if there isn't a giant 70 page thread you are now posting with with plenty of major issues being posted. Feel free to scroll back if you don't believe me. With that said, the LRBHO spring by itself is a major design flaw which also makes it not suitable for a combat weapon. Adding to this nonsense here is the fact that there is zero data suggesting the mass of problems across the board with the Stribog and it's multiple third party fixes would actually be reliable enough to consider it a functional tool for real world work. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2024 7:29:32 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: So let's talk about MP5 Extractor springs now. Cause that's totally different and super OK. I ran two HK MP5's back to back, both of them were jammotatic POS that couldn't go 5 rounds. But Oh That's Different German guns or other? |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 9:42:21 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: German guns or other? German HK logo's. Some people's experience damaging their Stribog spring during maintenance soured them. My experience with MP5s jamming during live fire sure soured me. I can tell yabreal quick which gun MY experience was "this will get me killed" * 2 examples. That was my experience. Mp5 gets the Oh But Well You See - but Stribog does not - got it. Look nobody is denying the little exposed wire is a weak spot. In my experience, it is a weak spot during maintenance. It's not an exposed part in operation amd not at risk of failure in usage. If you do damage it during cleaning, you will discover that real quick upon reassembly and unloaded manipulation. Unlike MP5's weak spot, which you will discover only upon live fire. Hope that wasn't important. Just like I hope shot #31 wasn't important - or that's going to be a very loud *click* |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 9:53:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bye_Felicia]
[#38]
The BHO Spring on the Stribog is problematic. It's a shitty solution to keep costs down.
I love my Stribog, but I won't pretend that isn't an issue they need to fix. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2024 11:46:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: German HK logo's. Some people's experience damaging their Stribog spring during maintenance soured them. My experience with MP5s jamming during live fire sure soured me. I can tell yabreal quick which gun MY experience was "this will get me killed" * 2 examples. That was my experience. Mp5 gets the Oh But Well You See - but Stribog does not - got it. Look nobody is denying the little exposed wire is a weak spot. In my experience, it is a weak spot during maintenance. It's not an exposed part in operation amd not at risk of failure in usage. If you do damage it during cleaning, you will discover that real quick upon reassembly and unloaded manipulation. Unlike MP5's weak spot, which you will discover only upon live fire. Hope that wasn't important. Just like I hope shot #31 wasn't important - or that's going to be a very loud *click* In about 30k rounds across half a dozen MP5s, all German, mostly fullauto, I can count on one hand the number of failures I’ve had. A friend has a range rental MP5 that must have 100k rounds through it. The barrel had a squib and is slightly ringed. It gets extractor springs replaced at regular intervals. Other than the ringed barrel, it’s had no issues other than the ringed barrel. MP5s need full pressure ammo, not lower pressure commercial ammo. A friend of mine was shooting cci blazer exclusively in his mp5. It was eating extractor springs and extractors at a very accelerated rate. He said every 5-10 rounds the extractor spring went tits up. Every 50 rounds the extractor would chip. All german bolt parts. He had more than normal carbon soot on cases, sent a few to CCI who determined the case wasn’t expanding sufficiently in the chamber. He deduced the weak ammo didn’t have enough pressure to expand brass against the chamber, so all of the gas pressure funneled right down the chamber flutes and around the case directly into the breech face. He crimped the case mouth and issues went away. Now he runs proper pressure ammo and has had zero premature extractor/spring failures. |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 11:50:04 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Look nobody is denying the little exposed wire is a weak spot. In my experience, it is a weak spot during maintenance. It's not an exposed part in operation amd not at risk of failure in usage. If you can literally see it from the outside of the gun it's exposed during operation. Any material whatsoever that gets in there is going to stop it from operation. |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 5:00:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: If you can literally see it from the outside of the gun it's exposed during operation. Any material whatsoever that gets in there is going to stop it from operation. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Look nobody is denying the little exposed wire is a weak spot. In my experience, it is a weak spot during maintenance. It's not an exposed part in operation amd not at risk of failure in usage. If you can literally see it from the outside of the gun it's exposed during operation. Any material whatsoever that gets in there is going to stop it from operation. I dont know about that You can barely see anything, and can swe Glock springs more reasily. |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 5:05:42 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: I dont know about that You can barely see anything, and can swe Glock springs more reasily. It's exposed between the upper and lower. You don't think mud, sand, or snow can get in that gap? |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 7:41:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: It's exposed between the upper and lower. You don't think mud, sand, or snow can get in that gap? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: I dont know about that You can barely see anything, and can swe Glock springs more reasily. It's exposed between the upper and lower. You don't think mud, sand, or snow can get in that gap? TBH, not really. Not aside from a pretty heavy exposure that might well strain others too. But maybe? Has it been failing mud tests more than others? |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 8:08:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: TBH, not really. Not aside from a pretty heavy exposure that might well strain others too. But maybe? Has it been failing mud tests more than others? I wasn't aware of any until you just asked that question so I looked it up and the first one I found was MAC's mud test. Turns out, the bolt locked open after gently pressing the gun into the dirt, and the same thing again when he put it into the sand. His response, "I don't know what keeps causing that." His second A3 video stated it has the "same old feeding and ammo sensitivity problems". |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 10:22:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I wasn't aware of any until you just asked that question so I looked it up and the first one I found was MAC's mud test. Turns out, the bolt locked open after gently pressing the gun into the dirt, and the same thing again when he put it into the sand. His response, "I don't know what keeps causing that." His second A3 video stated it has the "same old feeding and ammo sensitivity problems". Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: TBH, not really. Not aside from a pretty heavy exposure that might well strain others too. But maybe? Has it been failing mud tests more than others? I wasn't aware of any until you just asked that question so I looked it up and the first one I found was MAC's mud test. Turns out, the bolt locked open after gently pressing the gun into the dirt, and the same thing again when he put it into the sand. His response, "I don't know what keeps causing that." His second A3 video stated it has the "same old feeding and ammo sensitivity problems". MAC's Stribog video's on the Stribog are as relevant today as a Model T assessment. I'm not even going to try to defend Grand Power's beta-test program. JMHO and will piss off half this thread, but Grand Power bumble fucked their way through development on the Stribog and have earned every bit of the grief they get from randoms and Influencers on how much they suck. MAC in particularly got an Early Strobog and said "this sucks" (correctly). He then got a SP9A3 with straight mags and first gen bolt, and said "this sucks" (correctly). The then said Fuck These Guys (meh... incorrectly, but I can't actually fault him), and concluded Stribogs just suck (incorrectly). To date, the number of Influencers actually running a current product post 4000 SN SP9A3 with curved magazines, remains at zero. Which frankly is the only model the actually got right and that actually differentiates itself. So that's my long winded way of saying relying on a MAC assessment is... well... relying on a MAC assessment and of very little value. That, and many "influencer" mud tests are an exercise of the absurd and irrelevant - as far as I'm concerned. But I can't really focus on MAC alone, even Forgotten Weapons tests are just silly tests. But just so we're clear - here's the area on question.  See. the tiny little silver lateral thing just above the the middle area of the bolt lock/release lever? Kind of below the front of the Garand Clip? Yea, that's the wide open mud catcher super exposed spot that's going to Get You Killed. Right. (no - it's not). It's OK if you can't even see what I'm talking about - because that's kind of the point. Again, here's the area after disassembly.  And you bet, that fragile looking wire thing is goofy as shit and Grand Power deserves mockery for that shit, because now... NOW, it's really easy to bend or fuck up that delicate little thing - while it's disassembled. But to say that's a super-exposed area on an actually assembled and deployed gun, that's surely just crazy dangerous ZOMG look how exposed that is... No - not really. |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 10:27:54 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: But to say that's a super-exposed area on an actually assembled and deployed gun, that's surely just crazy dangerous ZOMG look how exposed that is... No - not really. Nobody said literally any of that. But it is exposed in between the upper and lower, and foreign debris and media can absolutely get into there quite easily. As pointed out it is extremely flimsy, and does not take much to apply pressure and lock the bolt back. Say what you will about the MAC videos, but he was using an A3 and debris absolutely caused the bolt to lock back with a mild, casual application. Therefore, as I have stated from the beginning, there is absolutely no reason or data to say this gun is ready for any real world use. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2024 10:32:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TactiCoolBro]
[#47]
It’s funny because none of the big names have an A3 with curved mags except IV8888 - and go figure - he absolutely love the gun.
Every random YouTuber I’ve seen that has an A3 with curved mags or new lower with Scorpion mags love the guns and most have zero issues with them. GP screwed themselves in the early days. The guns have a bad name because they releases junk in the early days and most people never have them a second (or in some cases third) chance to check out an A3 with curved mags. If the current state of the Stribog was what came out back then, people’s general perception of them would be a WAYY different story to what it is now. The guns are incredibly solid shooters as they come from GP now. The mags are still the weak point, but the GUN itself absolutely runs and it is reliable. If you want to take it to another level, buy a lower that takes Scorpion mags. If you need to take it beyond that, get the Lingle lower that does away with the OWM LRBHO system entirely. You’re still significantly cheaper than a B&T or MP5, and IME and from other accounts, you end up with a gun that will keep up with any MP5 or B&T all day. ETA: Since mud tests keep being brought up, has anyone even done a mud test on an MP5? I can’t find one single video of one. From what I gather, it wouldn’t perform worth a damn. It’s funny the bog is being judged on it but we can’t even see what the MP5 would be like in those conditions. There’s ONE video of a dude with a clip of one that looks dirty, but he doesn’t shoot it. It’s allegedly a teaser of a full video to come. That was 8 years ago. I’m sure the whole video never saw the light of day because we all know it was a failure. From dudes I’ve talked to over the years, MP5’s do not run worth a shit overly dirty or in harsh environments. Of course, I’m sure your experience was much different than the experiences of other people I’ve talked to. |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 10:44:45 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TactiCoolBro: ETA: Since mud tests keep being brought up, has anyone even done a mud test on an MP5? I can’t find one single video of one. From what I gather, it wouldn’t perform worth a damn. It’s funny the bog is being judged on it but we can’t even see what the MP5 would be like in those conditions. From dudes I’ve talked to over the years, MP5’s do not run worth a shit overly dirty or in harsh environments. Ah, the classic "unquantified personal experience" route. I've talked to a few dudes too, and my experience varies a lot from yours. And as I have mentioned, I'm by no means a fan of the MP5. However as much as you want to bring the discussion back to the MP5, it is about the Stribog. The Stribog failed two mud tests on video, with results I accurately predicted prior to even knowing the video existed. I don't care if the MP5 did or didn't, that wasn't what was being discussed. |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 10:44:47 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Nobody said literally any of that. But it is exposed in between the upper and lower, and foreign debris and media can absolutely get into there quite easily. As pointed out it is extremely flimsy, and does not take much to apply pressure and lock the bolt back. Say what you will about the MAC videos, but he was using an A3 and debris absolutely caused the bolt to lock back with a mild, casual application. Therefore, as I have stated from the beginning, there is absolutely no reason or data to say this gun is ready for any real world use. Did I misread? This seems to be a recurring sentence in this thread. Anyway, cool - enjoy your other guns. Me - I'm pretty stoked with the current rendition Stribog. Other people who shot mine, are pretty stoked with the Stribog. You have your experiences and have used other more proven (i.e. older) guns, that you like. Cool. Run 'em. In my experience the MP5 units I have run would have gotten me killed. When I mention that, I get a lot of Oh Well But You See... which is nice, but they failed. Both of them. I also think they are heavy and lack modern features. The adoration of that gun has the appearance of an adoration exaggeration that over-forgives its limitations. JMHO. FWIW, I did once run a UMP45 full auto. Personally, I hated it, as I couldn't control it. A failing on my part deserving of every derision you want to give, but that was my experience with that gun. The gun I found I actually like and would trust my life to - is the Stribog. |
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Posted: 2/24/2024 10:48:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Ah, the classic "unquantified personal experience" route. I've talked to a few dudes too, and my experience varies a lot from yours. And as I have mentioned, I'm by no means a fan of the MP5. However as much as you want to bring the discussion back to the MP5, it is about the Stribog. The Stribog failed two mud tests on video, with results I accurately predicted prior to even knowing the video existed. I don't care if the MP5 did or didn't, that wasn't what was being discussed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By TactiCoolBro: ETA: Since mud tests keep being brought up, has anyone even done a mud test on an MP5? I can’t find one single video of one. From what I gather, it wouldn’t perform worth a damn. It’s funny the bog is being judged on it but we can’t even see what the MP5 would be like in those conditions. From dudes I’ve talked to over the years, MP5’s do not run worth a shit overly dirty or in harsh environments. Ah, the classic "unquantified personal experience" route. I've talked to a few dudes too, and my experience varies a lot from yours. And as I have mentioned, I'm by no means a fan of the MP5. However as much as you want to bring the discussion back to the MP5, it is about the Stribog. The Stribog failed two mud tests on video, with results I accurately predicted prior to even knowing the video existed. I don't care if the MP5 did or didn't, that wasn't what was being discussed. The relevancy is the Stribog is being judged and maligned by a standard not being applied to other models. A standard that as applied in the manner as executed by Influencers, I tend to find of questionable validity. |
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