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Posted: 1/4/2022 1:22:48 PM EDT
[#1]
What parts? I never received my orders from DM.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 1/4/2022 1:52:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By axeeclipse14: And I have no idea how to approach this other than shut up and wait. I don't think there is clear "correct" way to handle it. Members that go lawyer route will probably all get different advise. 1- No response: Probably just punting on the issue, they may follow up or may never do so 2- Letter to local field office saying to you don't have parts: Could cause local office to follow up this where they would have otherwise just left you alone, or could take you off a follow up list, or may not matter 3- Letter to local field office with proof of form 1: Could have no effect, could take you off a follow up list, could lead to them seizing the form 1 that was built from silencer parts 4- Returning your unused or completed form 1: Could remove you follow up list, could end up with them charging you with a crime |
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USA
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Posted: 1/4/2022 2:06:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By c5hardtop: 1- No response: Probably just punting on the issue, they may follow up or may never do so With this, if they do follow up, you have not incriminated yourself, and, IMO, them calling/contacting you would be a huge indicator to shut up and lawyer up. If you have no product from DM, and you are not talking, it would be seemingly difficult to "prove" anything. (This is my "not a lawyer" opinion, and is only my opinion in regards to people who bent over backwards to obey the law, and who don't possess any merchandise from DM. If an ATF raid of your house would turn up unregistered NFA items/parts/stuff, then obviously you might want to handle the mass-mailed letter that didn't even include your name differently) |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 1/4/2022 4:59:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Update: I got a call back from some one at the St Paul division office. I will try to get everything that we talked about in here, but it probably won’t be in order or word for word.
First things first. The agent stated that he talked with the lawyers at their division office and the guidance he was given was that they were not going to pursue the end users so long as they were obviously trying to follow the law. He further stated that as far as their division lawyers we concerned, if you had an approved form 1, they were accepting that as proof that you made a reasonable attempt to follow the law. I broached the issue of the letter implying that items purchased from DM possibly should have been transferred on a form 4. He didn’t confirm or deny a position on how potentially regulated items should have been transferred. He just restated that as long as you had an approved form 1, they were not going to press the issue. I politely told him that vaguely worded letter that appeared to be a “shake out the couch cushions” type of operation like this was a reason that ATF struggles to get support from the law abiding gun owners of this country. He stated that this was meant to try to shake out people that were trying to circumvent the system and are not able to legally possess firearms. He also made the statement that the letter came from another division, and was likely sent to everyone that may have been a customer of DM. It didn’t seem like he knew who purchased what, and if the division that sent the letter knows who purchased what, he didn’t give any type of indication either way. I asked about getting something in writing from them that a form 1 is acceptable. He said he would take it to their division lawyers. He also said that he totally understood why I would ask for something in writing and he would do the same if he were in my shoes. I asked what he thought the chances were that they would give me something in writing. He said probably 50/50 and I should check in if I don’t hear from him in a couple of days. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/4/2022 5:29:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks for this update, and please keep us updated if they do/don't do anything in writing for you.
If they give you something in writing, I'm going to call. If not, I'll wait it out I guess. |
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Posted: 1/4/2022 5:41:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnandy: Update: I got a call back from some one at the St Paul division office. I will try to get everything that we talked about in here, but it probably won't be in order or word for word. First things first. The agent stated that he talked with the lawyers at their division office and the guidance he was given was that they were not going to pursue the end users so long as they were obviously trying to follow the law. He further stated that as far as their division lawyers we concerned, if you had an approved form 1, they were accepting that as proof that you made a reasonable attempt to follow the law. I broached the issue of the letter implying that items purchased from DM possibly should have been transferred on a form 4. He didn't confirm or deny a position on how potentially regulated items should have been transferred. He just restated that as long as you had an approved form 1, they were not going to press the issue. I politely told him that vaguely worded letter that appeared to be a "shake out the couch cushions" type of operation like this was a reason that ATF struggles to get support from the law abiding gun owners of this country. He stated that this was meant to try to shake out people that were trying to circumvent the system and are not able to legally possess firearms. He also made the statement that the letter came from another division, and was likely sent to everyone that may have been a customer of DM. It didn't seem like he knew who purchased what, and if the division that sent the letter knows who purchased what, he didn't give any type of indication either way. I asked about getting something in writing from them that a form 1 is acceptable. He said he would take it to their division lawyers. He also said that he totally understood why I would ask for something in writing and he would do the same if he were in my shoes. I asked what he thought the chances were that they would give me something in writing. He said probably 50/50 and I should check in if I don't hear from him in a couple of days. It's nice to hear some kind of word from their end. |
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Posted: 1/4/2022 6:08:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnandy: . He also said that he totally understood why I would ask for something in writing and he would do the same if he were in my shoes. I asked what he thought the chances were that they would give me something in writing. He said probably 50/50 and I should check in if I don’t hear from him in a couple of days. 
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WA, USA
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Posted: 1/4/2022 8:05:50 PM EDT
[#8]
I haven't received anything yet, I purchased a single tube a couple years ago. Buddy got his letter today, he bought a couple tubes and mounts.
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Posted: 1/4/2022 8:59:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnandy: Update: I got a call back from some one at the St Paul division office. I will try to get everything that we talked about in here, but it probably won’t be in order or word for word. First things first. The agent stated that he talked with the lawyers at their division office and the guidance he was given was that they were not going to pursue the end users so long as they were obviously trying to follow the law. He further stated that as far as their division lawyers we concerned, if you had an approved form 1, they were accepting that as proof that you made a reasonable attempt to follow the law. I broached the issue of the letter implying that items purchased from DM possibly should have been transferred on a form 4. He didn’t confirm or deny a position on how potentially regulated items should have been transferred. He just restated that as long as you had an approved form 1, they were not going to press the issue. I politely told him that vaguely worded letter that appeared to be a “shake out the couch cushions” type of operation like this was a reason that ATF struggles to get support from the law abiding gun owners of this country. He stated that this was meant to try to shake out people that were trying to circumvent the system and are not able to legally possess firearms. He also made the statement that the letter came from another division, and was likely sent to everyone that may have been a customer of DM. It didn’t seem like he knew who purchased what, and if the division that sent the letter knows who purchased what, he didn’t give any type of indication either way. I asked about getting something in writing from them that a form 1 is acceptable. He said he would take it to their division lawyers. He also said that he totally understood why I would ask for something in writing and he would do the same if he were in my shoes. I asked what he thought the chances were that they would give me something in writing. He said probably 50/50 and I should check in if I don’t hear from him in a couple of days. Seems to be the opposite of what another field office told a member of the Form 1 forum. He was told baffles and tubes were going to be an issue and that was coming from an example picture the Detroit office sent to his local office. |
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Posted: 1/4/2022 9:16:46 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnandy: Update: I got a call back from some one at the St Paul division office. I will try to get everything that we talked about in here, but it probably won’t be in order or word for word. First things first. The agent stated that he talked with the lawyers at their division office and the guidance he was given was that they were not going to pursue the end users so long as they were obviously trying to follow the law. He further stated that as far as their division lawyers we concerned, if you had an approved form 1, they were accepting that as proof that you made a reasonable attempt to follow the law. I broached the issue of the letter implying that items purchased from DM possibly should have been transferred on a form 4. He didn’t confirm or deny a position on how potentially regulated items should have been transferred. He just restated that as long as you had an approved form 1, they were not going to press the issue. I politely told him that vaguely worded letter that appeared to be a “shake out the couch cushions” type of operation like this was a reason that ATF struggles to get support from the law abiding gun owners of this country. He stated that this was meant to try to shake out people that were trying to circumvent the system and are not able to legally possess firearms. He also made the statement that the letter came from another division, and was likely sent to everyone that may have been a customer of DM. It didn’t seem like he knew who purchased what, and if the division that sent the letter knows who purchased what, he didn’t give any type of indication either way. I asked about getting something in writing from them that a form 1 is acceptable. He said he would take it to their division lawyers. He also said that he totally understood why I would ask for something in writing and he would do the same if he were in my shoes. I asked what he thought the chances were that they would give me something in writing. He said probably 50/50 and I should check in if I don’t hear from him in a couple of days. "He stated that this was meant to try to shake out people that were trying to circumvent the system and are not able to legally possess firearms." Right, because the first thing a felon does would be to contact the ATF. Anyone who knowingly did something wrong would NOT contact the ATF, but have warning to dispose of anything they still have. Only the law abiding citizens - growing to hate the ATF - would respond. |
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Posted: 1/4/2022 9:24:58 PM EDT
[#11]
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MN, USA
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Posted: 1/4/2022 10:59:33 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnandy: Update: I got a call back from some one at the St Paul division office. I will try to get everything that we talked about in here, but it probably won’t be in order or word for word. First things first. The agent stated that he talked with the lawyers at their division office and the guidance he was given was that they were not going to pursue the end users so long as they were obviously trying to follow the law. He further stated that as far as their division lawyers we concerned, if you had an approved form 1, they were accepting that as proof that you made a reasonable attempt to follow the law. I broached the issue of the letter implying that items purchased from DM possibly should have been transferred on a form 4. He didn’t confirm or deny a position on how potentially regulated items should have been transferred. He just restated that as long as you had an approved form 1, they were not going to press the issue. I politely told him that vaguely worded letter that appeared to be a “shake out the couch cushions” type of operation like this was a reason that ATF struggles to get support from the law abiding gun owners of this country. He stated that this was meant to try to shake out people that were trying to circumvent the system and are not able to legally possess firearms. He also made the statement that the letter came from another division, and was likely sent to everyone that may have been a customer of DM. It didn’t seem like he knew who purchased what, and if the division that sent the letter knows who purchased what, he didn’t give any type of indication either way. I asked about getting something in writing from them that a form 1 is acceptable. He said he would take it to their division lawyers. He also said that he totally understood why I would ask for something in writing and he would do the same if he were in my shoes. I asked what he thought the chances were that they would give me something in writing. He said probably 50/50 and I should check in if I don’t hear from him in a couple of days. Thanks for calling. When you hear back, please pm me the agents name. I was going to get in touch with an at, but I'll see if you come up with anything from the field office. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:57:06 AM EDT
[#13]
It seems like there is a lot of confusion on the best route to take. Call the ATF, ignore the letter, send the ATF a copy of your form 1, obtain guidance from a lawyer. It would be great if a lawyer would be able to provide some guidance to the community regarding what to do with this whole thing. I just sent a message over to Colin Noir regarding this. It'll be interesting to see if I hear back. I'll also reach out to Dean with NFALawyer to see if he has any guidance as I purchased my trust through him in the past.
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USA
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Posted: 1/5/2022 9:37:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Logcutter]
[#14]
Looks like we should have a Minnesota silencer shoot.
Or we can form our own gang in the federal pen. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 1/5/2022 10:45:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: c5hardtop]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnandy: I asked about getting something in writing from them that a form 1 is acceptable. He said he would take it to their division lawyers. He also said that he totally understood why I would ask for something in writing and he would do the same if he were in my shoes. I asked what he thought the chances were that they would give me something in writing. He said probably 50/50 and I should check in if I don’t hear from him in a couple of days. ATF can choose not to go after people that have the parts in question, but I think there is close to a 0% chance a ATF Lawyer drafts the letter you want. It's outside of the framework of what they can do to declare something is illegal but then say it's OK for you to keep. Others (previously) that were visited were targeted because of the Cratus 47 and Cratus 95. It was a predrilled monocore that was built (Zmachine but not sure who actual manufacturer was) that was built to fit the DM tubes. At least two people have have had local field offices tell them the Michigan office doesn't have information about what was ordered, just the customer list. This would seem to be backed up with the letter, because otherwise they wouldn't get anywhere without people self incriminating or just surrendering parts. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:25:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: W_E_G]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By c5hardtop: they wouldn't get anywhere without people self-incrementing or just surrendering parts. ^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^ Keep your big mouth shut. Keep your door shut. Open your mouth or your door, and you done fucked up. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 2:01:28 PM EDT
[#17]
I spoke with several lawyers over the last couple days and they have all said contact the ATF office and state that you have a tax stamp for the parts.I did just that, 313-202-3400 is the phone number for the Detroit office that sent out these letters.
I spoke with an agent and stated I have an approved stamp for the parts I purchased and he said, "if you have an approved stamp, you're not in trouble". So I asked what the point was for sending all these letters out and he stated, "these were sent out for people that may have build a silencer and didn't have a stamp". I'm currently waiting for a call back from the supervisor at this office to confirm and get his email, so I can have it in written form. Hopefully this will set some minds at ease... |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 2:05:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thorn653: I spoke with several lawyers over the last couple days and they have all said contact the ATF office and state that you have a tax stamp for the parts.I did just that, 313-202-3400 is the phone number for the Detroit office that sent out these letters. I spoke with an agent and stated I have an approved stamp for the parts I purchased and he said, "if you have an approved stamp, you're not in trouble". So I asked what the point was for sending all these letters out and he stated, "these were sent out for people that may have build a silencer and didn't have a stamp". I'm currently waiting for a call back from the supervisor at this office to confirm and get his email, so I can have it in written form. Hopefully this will set some minds at ease... Then whatever idiot wrote/approved the frickin' letter should have included "unless you have an approved Form 1" |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 2:25:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RDTCU: Then whatever idiot wrote/approved the frickin' letter should have included "unless you have an approved Form 1" I would suggest everyone calling their office and overloading the phone system immediately. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 2:49:57 PM EDT
[#20]
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AK, USA
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Posted: 1/6/2022 1:40:23 AM EDT
[#21]
Got my letter today. I guess I'll spend some of my hard earned dollars on a lawyer to respond on my behalf.
Hopefully all that money I spent on tax stamps was worth it. |
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Posted: 1/6/2022 10:28:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnandy: Update: I got a call back from some one at the St Paul division office. I will try to get everything that we talked about in here, but it probably won’t be in order or word for word. First things first. The agent stated that he talked with the lawyers at their division office and the guidance he was given was that they were not going to pursue the end users so long as they were obviously trying to follow the law. He further stated that as far as their division lawyers we concerned, if you had an approved form 1, they were accepting that as proof that you made a reasonable attempt to follow the law. I broached the issue of the letter implying that items purchased from DM possibly should have been transferred on a form 4. He didn’t confirm or deny a position on how potentially regulated items should have been transferred. He just restated that as long as you had an approved form 1, they were not going to press the issue. I politely told him that vaguely worded letter that appeared to be a “shake out the couch cushions” type of operation like this was a reason that ATF struggles to get support from the law abiding gun owners of this country. He stated that this was meant to try to shake out people that were trying to circumvent the system and are not able to legally possess firearms. He also made the statement that the letter came from another division, and was likely sent to everyone that may have been a customer of DM. It didn’t seem like he knew who purchased what, and if the division that sent the letter knows who purchased what, he didn’t give any type of indication either way. I asked about getting something in writing from them that a form 1 is acceptable. He said he would take it to their division lawyers. He also said that he totally understood why I would ask for something in writing and he would do the same if he were in my shoes. I asked what he thought the chances were that they would give me something in writing. He said probably 50/50 and I should check in if I don’t hear from him in a couple of days. Thank you for reaching out and reporting back. That is an extremely polite way of saying it. 
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USA
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Posted: 1/6/2022 1:33:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Logcutter]
[#23]
I went through all my "gun stuff" over the past few days. I have no "spare parts" I don't even have any freeze plugs. I definitely don't have any tubes or cones from DM.
Heck, I don't even have any spare "pistol braces" not installed on an AR pistol, as I gave away my Shockwave blades when I upgraded to SBA3 braces. Unless the MN office sends a letter stating it's "ok" if you have a form-1, I plan on doing nothing with the intent to STFU and lawyer up if they show up at my door. I feel like doing anything else just opens the door for potential bad things to happen, and I see no upside at this point to responding when I DON'T have any illegal parts or suppressors, and I do legally have 5 cans. If the ATF calls or shows up, a simple "I don't have any parts that I am aware of, but I do have a legally approved form-1 silencer. Please speak to my lawyer" seems like a good plan. |
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Posted: 1/6/2022 5:25:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Alright guys.Here's an official email from the ATF/DOJ agent.
This should put your minds at ease unless you didn't file a Form 1. He stated that people have been actually turning in parts that didn't file a Form 1...  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/6/2022 5:50:58 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thorn653: Alright guys.Here's an official email from the ATF/DOJ agent. This should put your minds at ease unless you didn't file a Form 1. He stated that people have been actually turning in parts that didn't file a Form 1...https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/413870/ATF_email_jpg-2230738.JPG
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USA
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Posted: 1/6/2022 6:23:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Logcutter]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thorn653: Alright guys.Here's an official email from the ATF/DOJ agent. This should put your minds at ease unless you didn't file a Form 1. He stated that people have been actually turning in parts that didn't file a Form 1...https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/413870/ATF_email_jpg-2230738.JPG I would buy you a beer. Thanks!!! |
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Posted: 1/6/2022 6:52:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RenegadeX]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thorn653: Alright guys.Here's an official email from the ATF/DOJ agent. This should put your minds at ease unless you didn't file a Form 1. He stated that people have been actually turning in parts that didn't file a Form 1...https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/413870/ATF_email_jpg-2230738.JPG This has really become comedy. I am surprised there are so many NFA owners who do not understand the NFA process. But here is a simple primer: 1) Any given item is either an NFA taxable firearm or it is not. If it is a NFA taxable firearm (for example, a completed baffle), it cannot be xferred without an approved Form 4 beforehand. 2)If it is not an NFA taxable firearm (for example, a block of aluminum) then it does not need an approved NFA form. Despite what the letter above says, you cannot transfer a unmarked, NFA taxable firearm, and then when you get it file a Form 1 for it as if you made it when you did not (what the agent and others have said is "ok"). If you could, DeadAir, Griffin, KAC, etc., would make and sell unmarked silencers to anybody and then when you got it you would Form 1 it. So if DM sent you a NFA taxable firearm, it is and forever will be contraband. You cannot form 1 that and unfuck it. If it was not an NFA taxable firearm, then it only becomes an NFA taxable firearm if you make it one or if like bump stocks, ATF decides it really was an NFA taxable firearm in the first place. The reason so many folks are getting bad advice from their lawyers, is basic GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). Lawyers giving advice are under impression what DM sent out was #2 above, when the original Agent who sent out the letter is saying it was #1 above). And of course, to keep everyone confused, his letter did name which parts were #1 or #2. He just tried to confuse folks with "YOU MAYBE.." |
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Posted: 1/6/2022 10:16:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: I would buy you a beer. Thanks!!!
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CT, USA
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Posted: 1/7/2022 9:27:56 AM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By RenegadeX: This has really become comedy. I am surprised there are so many NFA owners who do not understand the NFA process. But here is a simple primer: 1) Any given item is either an NFA taxable firearm or it is not. If it is a NFA taxable firearm (for example, a completed baffle), it cannot be xferred without an approved Form 4 beforehand. 2)If it is not an NFA taxable firearm (for example, a block of aluminum) then it does not need an approved NFA form. Despite what the letter above says, you cannot transfer a unmarked, NFA taxable firearm, and then when you get it file a Form 1 for it as if you made it when you did not (what the agent and others have said is "ok"). If you could, DeadAir, Griffin, KAC, etc., would make and sell unmarked silencers to anybody and then when you got it you would Form 1 it. So if DM sent you a NFA taxable firearm, it is and forever will be contraband. You cannot form 1 that and unfuck it. If it was not an NFA taxable firearm, then it only becomes an NFA taxable firearm if you make it one or if like bump stocks, ATF decides it really was an NFA taxable firearm in the first place. The reason so many folks are getting bad advice from their lawyers, is basic GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). Lawyers giving advice are under impression what DM sent out was #2 above, when the original Agent who sent out the letter is saying it was #1 above). And of course, to keep everyone confused, his letter did name which parts were #1 or #2. He just tried to confuse folks with "YOU MAYBE.." This is exactly what I've been trying to convey, the whole time. If the ATF says it's a silencer part, you bought it illegally. Regardless of whether or not you have a form1. Also, listening to a single agent, all while disregarding info from another, is a sure fire way to get conflicting info  Worry about it or don't. That's up to you. But, I wouldn't take the word of an email, especially from anyone other than the Chief of FATB, the director of the ATF, or Senior Council of the DOJ. |
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Posted: 1/7/2022 9:48:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BigPolska]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By User55645: This is exactly what I've been trying to convey, the whole time. If the ATF says it's a silencer part, you bought it illegally. Regardless of whether or not you have a form1. Also, listening to a single agent, all while disregarding info from another, is a sure fire way to get conflicting info Worry about it or don't. That's up to you. But, I wouldn't take the word of an email, especially from anyone other than the Chief of FATB, the director of the ATF, or Senior Council of the DOJ. @user55645 I appreciate everyone who has weighed in on this, from Renegadex, thorn653, and yourself. I guess in the end, it is up to the individual to determine their own course of action....saying this.... Even with stamps I don't want to possess or surrender anything they could use to come after me years down the line. This agent might be logical, but his replacement or supervisor may not be. What is the best way to avoid any trouble if you don't want any future issues? If a person simply destroys anything that originated from DM, would they be ok? Is it best to retain the destroyed scrap if THEY show up un-announced to prove compliance, or what is the best protocol here? |
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Posted: 1/7/2022 10:03:59 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPolska: @user55645 I appreciate everyone who has weighed in on this, from Renegadex, thorn653, and yourself. I guess in the end, it is up to the individual to determine their own course of action....saying this.... Even with stamps I don't want to possess or surrender anything they could use to come after me years down the line. This agent might be logical, but his replacement or supervisor may not be. What is the best way to avoid any trouble if you don't want any future issues? If a person simply destroys anything that originated from DM, would they be ok? Is it best to retain the destroyed scrap if THEY show up un-announced to prove compliance, or what is the best protocol here? The big problem here is, there is no answer, the ATF could say one thing to day, then change their mind tomorrow. We have to follow rules for the future that don't exist today. The only thing I can say is if we had a large lawsuit that determined exactly what path we must follow. as far as I can tell we're quickly running out of time. |
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Posted: 1/7/2022 10:24:44 AM EDT
[#32]
I agree Ageone....
The whole we changed our mind so we will prosecute now for something we said was legal then is complete bullshit. Just trying to figure out what to do with anything DM... if it is destroyed scrap surely this would protect you, as it is no longer a silencer part... And I would be down to contribute to a lawyer for a lawsuit... |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 1/7/2022 10:44:19 AM EDT
[#33]
Why would anyone contact the ATF regarding this matter? Keep your mouth shut. Even having approved forms 1's does not mean item was built or possession of anything.
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Posted: 1/7/2022 12:04:32 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPolska: I agree Ageone.... The whole we changed our mind so we will prosecute now for something we said was legal then is complete bullshit. Just trying to figure out what to do with anything DM... if it is destroyed scrap surely this would protect you, as it is no longer a silencer part... And I would be down to contribute to a lawyer for a lawsuit... Their parts aren't marked; you likely can't prove that the scrap is the DM parts. It is logically very difficult (or impossible) to prove that you DID NOT do something, which is partly why our justice system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. |
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Posted: 1/7/2022 12:44:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPolska: @user55645 I appreciate everyone who has weighed in on this, from Renegadex, thorn653, and yourself. I guess in the end, it is up to the individual to determine their own course of action....saying this.... Even with stamps I don't want to possess or surrender anything they could use to come after me years down the line. This agent might be logical, but his replacement or supervisor may not be. What is the best way to avoid any trouble if you don't want any future issues? If a person simply destroys anything that originated from DM, would they be ok? Is it best to retain the destroyed scrap if THEY show up un-announced to prove compliance, or what is the best protocol here? Just another case of SSDD - DIAS, Akins Accelerator, 80% Lowers, Street Sweepers, Bump Stocks, Stabilizing stocks, open Bolt MAC10s, etc. All sold under one set of rules, then BATFE changed their mind and now another set of rules. Nothing to do right now till an official determination and ruling comes down from BATFE. Nobody who followed official BATF guidance was ever arrested or even visited by ATF AFAIK. |
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Posted: 1/7/2022 1:12:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RenegadeX: Just another case of SSDD - DIAS, Akins Accelerator, 80% Lowers, Street Sweepers, Bump Stocks, Stabilizing stocks, open Bolt MAC10s, etc. All sold under one set of rules, then BATFE changed their mind and now another set of rules. Nothing to do right now till an official determination and ruling comes down from BATFE. Nobody who followed official BATF guidance was ever arrested or even visited by ATF AFAIK. so if you have a f1 can built with these, and you turn it in, do you get to keep the stamp/SN for another can? or are you out the F1 also. |
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Posted: 1/7/2022 1:51:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: so if you have a f1 can built with these, and you turn it in, do you get to keep the stamp/SN for another can? or are you out the F1 also. If/when BATFE issues a ruling and guidance, then we will know what the rules are. Till then enjoy your can. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 1/7/2022 4:19:03 PM EDT
[#38]
For this specific issue, "Contact an Attorney" is damn near useless advise.
I am personally/professionally acquainted with several Attorneys. NONE of them are well versed in state level firearm law. They are even less knowledgeable about Federal firearms laws. If retained to defend you for a firearms violation, they are going to spend time researching case law to determine how to proceed with your case. Compounding the lack of knowledge is going to be lack of case law to research. It's already been pointed out that either- A) Parts sold by Diversified Machine were Silencers. B) Parts sold by Diversified Machine were not Silencers. A silencer needs to be transferred via for 4. To my knowledge DM was not licensed to manufacture silencers. Parts were not serialized or otherwise suitable for transfer regardless. If DM parts are not silencers then there is zero reason for the ATF to screw with the American public in the first place. I have an email from an ATF Agent saying that I'm within the law since I have a Stamp via Form 1. I appreciate the Agent putting that in writing and for now will have to take the statement at face value. HOWEVER- IF the feds are claiming DM parts are silencers, how can anyone legally pay for a Tax Stamp? We cannot Form 1 an already manufactured silencer. We cannot Form 4 a silencer built by an unlicensed manufacturer. As long as the ATF is claiming DM parts are "silencers" this will be a cloud hanging over the heads of Law Abiding Americans. Once again, the fed.gov; specifically the ATF appears to be pulling crap out of their butts and slinging it at Americans. It's going to be a rare, exceptional Attorney who can provide any meaningful advise. If I were a betting man, I'd bet most attorneys that average Joe has access to cannot provide meaningful advise on this. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 1/7/2022 4:36:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: User55645]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By adhahn: For this specific issue, "Contact an Attorney" is damn near useless advise. I am personally/professionally acquainted with several Attorneys. NONE of them are well versed in state level firearm law. They are even less knowledgeable about Federal firearms laws. If retained to defend you for a firearms violation, they are going to spend time researching case law to determine how to proceed with your case. It's going to be a rare, exceptional Attorney who can provide any meaningful advise. If I were a betting man, I'd bet most attorneys that average Joe has access to cannot provide meaningful advise on this. This is all very true. It's an extremely niche area, for any lawyer to be well versed in. If it was absolutely necessary, I'd think about contacting David J. Betras. He's a Personal Injury and Criminal Defense attorney. He's also the guy who kept Brent See (the guy selling "monocore" muzzle brakes on ebay) out of prison. I don't know the guy, but that was a huge win. |
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Posted: 1/8/2022 11:12:33 AM EDT
[#40]
Well, two members of my gun trust have received letters. Spoke with a criminal defense lawyer who’s battled the “AFT” before and was following this DM letter issue on another forum. He says I should contact the local field office, I work for the Imperial Federal Govt so that doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy.
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Posted: 1/8/2022 5:14:35 PM EDT
[#41]
I only ever purchased a tube from them. I have not done a Form 1 because I never bought and cups. Any thoughts?
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MN, USA
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Posted: 1/8/2022 5:37:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RenegadeX: This has really become comedy. I am surprised there are so many NFA owners who do not understand the NFA process. But here is a simple primer: 1) Any given item is either an NFA taxable firearm or it is not. If it is a NFA taxable firearm (for example, a completed baffle), it cannot be xferred without an approved Form 4 beforehand. 2)If it is not an NFA taxable firearm (for example, a block of aluminum) then it does not need an approved NFA form. Despite what the letter above says, you cannot transfer a unmarked, NFA taxable firearm, and then when you get it file a Form 1 for it as if you made it when you did not (what the agent and others have said is "ok"). If you could, DeadAir, Griffin, KAC, etc., would make and sell unmarked silencers to anybody and then when you got it you would Form 1 it. So if DM sent you a NFA taxable firearm, it is and forever will be contraband. You cannot form 1 that and unfuck it. If it was not an NFA taxable firearm, then it only becomes an NFA taxable firearm if you make it one or if like bump stocks, ATF decides it really was an NFA taxable firearm in the first place. The reason so many folks are getting bad advice from their lawyers, is basic GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). Lawyers giving advice are under impression what DM sent out was #2 above, when the original Agent who sent out the letter is saying it was #1 above). And of course, to keep everyone confused, his letter did name which parts were #1 or #2. He just tried to confuse folks with "YOU MAYBE.." I agree on all points. There may be another angle to what AFT is doing. You know how every time someone gets a case that would ask a judge to define what component of an AR15 is the receiver, they suddenly decides to drop the case? No component of an AR15 meets the definition of a receiver as the law is written. They may not want to put a whole bunch of people, especially people that made a reasonable effort to follow the law and ask for permission, in front of judges and try to convince them to rule that a solvent trap, or spacer, or threaded adaptor is a silencer. It would be a lose/lose situation for them. If the judge says it is a silencer and writes the definition, they can’t make it up as they go, and if he says it is not, they have no power to regulate it. My guess it THAT is the reason that they are ignoring everything that is on a form 1. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 1/9/2022 12:09:14 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SSgt82-02: Well, two members of my gun trust have received letters.. The former owner of DM said he got same letter, along with family members and friends he sent Christmas gifts to (which seemed to indicate to him the list was based on his stamps.com account). Everyone I know locally that ordered offline didn't get letters. The people listed on your trust getting a letter would be a new one that no one else has reported. |
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Posted: 1/9/2022 7:02:59 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SSgt82-02: Well, two members of my gun trust have received letters. Spoke with a criminal defense lawyer who’s battled the “AFT” before and was following this DM letter issue on another forum. He says I should contact the local field office, I work for the Imperial Federal Govt so that doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy. Same on my trust. Was feeling i was alone with this issue, and i didnt know what to think of it. |
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Posted: 1/9/2022 10:41:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SSgt82-02: Well, two members of my gun trust have received letters. Spoke with a criminal defense lawyer who’s battled the “AFT” before and was following this DM letter issue on another forum. He says I should contact the local field office, I work for the Imperial Federal Govt so that doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy. If your “criminal defense lawyer” instructed you to contact the authorities on your own, you should FIRE that lawyer immediately. That is absolutely THE WORST THING you could do in this situation. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 1/10/2022 1:09:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: c5hardtop]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By W_E_G: If your “criminal defense lawyer” instructed you to contact the authorities on your own, you should FIRE that lawyer immediately. That is absolutely THE WORST THING you could do in this situation. From people that have hired attorneys so far here, form1 board, and reddit they have reported the results have been recommendation to comply and respond to letter, turn in parts or produce form 1. If DM parts = silencer parts, both actions would be effectively admitting to a crime... but that has been the recommendations so far. Today - https://blog.princelaw.com/2022/01/10/purchased-from-diversified-machine-and-received-a-warning-notice/ TLDR- Flint office is considering form 1s OK, will cross check. If you say you didn't receive or don't currently have parts they are assuming you are truthful and being removed from list. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 1:32:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By W_E_G: If your “criminal defense lawyer” instructed you to contact the authorities on your own, you should FIRE that lawyer immediately. That is absolutely THE WORST THING you could do in this situation. Exactly. I pointed this out in the other thread in the silencer forum |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 1:39:29 PM EDT
[#48]
From Prince Law Firm:
https://blog.princelaw.com/2022/01/10/purchased-from-diversified-machine-and-received-a-warning-notice/ Finally, I was informed that ATF is currently working on cross-referencing the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record with Diversified Machine’s customer records. Once completed, those individuals who appear in Diversified Machine’s customer records and have approved Forms 1 or 4, will be sent a subsequent letter informing them that they are considered by ATF to have appropriately registered their items. There was no available estimate for when this would be completed or the second letter sent. |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 1:48:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cowbell: From Prince Law Firm: https://blog.princelaw.com/2022/01/10/purchased-from-diversified-machine-and-received-a-warning-notice/ Finally, I was informed that ATF is currently working on cross-referencing the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record with Diversified Machine’s customer records. Once completed, those individuals who appear in Diversified Machine’s customer records and have approved Forms 1 or 4, will be sent a subsequent letter informing them that they are considered by ATF to have appropriately registered their items. There was no available estimate for when this would be completed or the second letter sent. Accessing NFTR for this is illegal How they know your f1 was for your dm is unknown to me never mind the previous issue of registering contraband and form 4 is even more impossible. Then there is issue of addresses in NFTR and dm might not be same Prince reputation while better than 5-10 years ago is still questionable I am going with bullshit |
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Posted: 1/10/2022 2:50:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cowbell: From Prince Law Firm: https://blog.princelaw.com/2022/01/10/purchased-from-diversified-machine-and-received-a-warning-notice/ Finally, I was informed that ATF is currently working on cross-referencing the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record with Diversified Machine’s customer records. Once completed, those individuals who appear in Diversified Machine’s customer records and have approved Forms 1 or 4, will be sent a subsequent letter informing them that they are considered by ATF to have appropriately registered their items. There was no available estimate for when this would be completed or the second letter sent. |
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