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Posted: 7/14/2012 8:20:47 AM EDT
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/07/11/spartan-gets-gunship-variant-usaf-wont-receive/
FARNBOROUGH, England — The U.S. Air Force needs gunships. The wings of their AC-130s are literally falling off from the strain of ten years of deployments to Afghanistan and Iraq. It just so happens Alenia Aermacchi unveiled a gunship version to the C-27 Monday here at the Farnborough International Airshow. Air Force leaders, however, chose to cancel the C-27 program this year after deciding the cargo aircraft was a luxury they could no longer afford in light of the defense budget cuts. Alenia teamed up with ATK to outfit the MC-27J Spartan with a palletized 30 mm GAU-23 cannon and later a command and control pallet for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. Neither capabilities are ground breaking. What sets it apart is the flexibility. Airman can load and unload the pallets carrying the guns in four hours or less. U.S. airmen already fire the GAU-23 Bushmaster Automatic Cannon from the AC-130W. The Air Force converted 12 MC-130s into the AC-130W to stem the shortage of gunships in its fleet. The GAU-23 is a dual feed system that can carry 500 rounds. The cannon is capable of firing 200 rounds per minute, but the pilot typically fires one round at a time or five round bursts for accuracy sake. The GAU-23 on the AC-130W is not palletized and therefore cannot be easily unloaded from the aircraft for separate missions. |
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C-27 isn't anywhere near the aircraft a C130 is. You might as well be comparing a Cessna 150 to a Beechcraft King Air.
And how about this? C-27s grounded after flight control failures The U.S. Air Force has grounded its fleet of C-27J cargo planes after an aircraft experienced a mechanical failure in part of its flight controls during a training sortie last week.
Air Force officials at the plane’s program office in Ohio ordered the grounding following the July 3 incident, which it is calling a “flight control problem,” according to a written statement provided by an Air Force spokeswoman. The Air Force has ordered an investigation into the incident. |
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C-27 isn't anywhere near the aircraft a C130 is. You might as well be comparing a Cessna 150 to a Beechcraft King Air. And how about this? C-27s grounded after flight control failures The U.S. Air Force has grounded its fleet of C-27J cargo planes after an aircraft experienced a mechanical failure in part of its flight controls during a training sortie last week.
Air Force officials at the plane’s program office in Ohio ordered the grounding following the July 3 incident, which it is calling a “flight control problem,” according to a written statement provided by an Air Force spokeswoman. The Air Force has ordered an investigation into the incident. This ... and in so many ways. C-130 > C-27 ... and its Italian anyway. It will always be in the shop. |
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Couldn't the same pallet system be rolled onto a C-130 in the same way?
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While the AC-27 may not be as "good" as a AC-130 it beats nothing,or a AC-130 grounded due to wing spar cracks. Unforturnate as it is the U.S. military is going to have to do with either less or smaller or a combonation of the two as we have/are buring up assets in the GWOT.
Off topic rant for whats it worth we could be blowing-up Afghani mud huts with A-7 pulled out of D-M. I drive pass them quite often, that would save the go-fasters from using up their airframe hours. |
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I'll probably get bashed for say it, but oh well. I think these assets need to be much more available to Regular Army units who spend alot more time outside the wire than the SOCOM units that they fall under.
IIRC, 130 Gunships have always been the domain of Special Operations. |
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Looks like a mini-Herc.
What is that attack plane built, if i recall, in South America? Single engine turboprop. |
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C-27 isn't anywhere near the aircraft a C130 is. You might as well be comparing a Cessna 150 to a Beechcraft King Air. And how about this? C-27s grounded after flight control failures The U.S. Air Force has grounded its fleet of C-27J cargo planes after an aircraft experienced a mechanical failure in part of its flight controls during a training sortie last week.
Air Force officials at the plane’s program office in Ohio ordered the grounding following the July 3 incident, which it is calling a “flight control problem,” according to a written statement provided by an Air Force spokeswoman. The Air Force has ordered an investigation into the incident. This ... and in so many ways. C-130 > C-27 ... and its Italian anyway. It will always be in the shop. C-27 is perfect for its intended mission- being flown by Army pilots for Army commanders to move cargo inside the theater that the USAF simply refuses to do to support the Army, because it beats Chinooks and trucks. USAF panties got in a wad over it, the USAF pulled politics to steal it promising up and down they would manage it properly to meet Army needs. Then the USAF promptly chooses to cancel the program that it never wanted, but how dare he Army move its own cargo they refuse to move. In short how dare the Army want to fly it, but we won't do it either. So now Soldiers will keep moving that cargo in trucks and Chinooks from one C-130 capable airfield to another while the flying club tells us what great support they deliver. |
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Quoted: Looks like a mini-Herc. What is that attack plane built, if i recall, in South America? Simple engine turboprop. The Super Tucano. Pretty cool aircraft. The Air Force was going to buy some to support counter-insurgency operations. Then they decided they wanted more F-35s to fight the Soviet Union instead. |
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I'll probably get bashed for say it, but oh well. I think these assets need to be much more available to Regular Army units who spend alot more time outside the wire than the SOCOM units that they fall under. IIRC, 130 Gunships have always been the domain of Special Operations. Since they belong to SOCOM it kind of stands to reason that they would spend most of their time with them. Frankly a Cessna Caravan like the Iraqis fly would be good over a patrol. |
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Quoted: Looks like a mini-Herc. What is that attack plane built, if i recall, in South America? Simple engine turboprop. Super Tucano. |
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Or we quit pussy footing around the politics and let the Buffs/Bones do what they were designed to do.
Bombers playing CAS Flatten the mountains and to hell with what everyone thinks of us. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'll probably get bashed for say it, but oh well. I think these assets need to be much more available to Regular Army units who spend alot more time outside the wire than the SOCOM units that they fall under. IIRC, 130 Gunships have always been the domain of Special Operations. Since they belong to SOCOM it kind of stands to reason that they would spend most of their time with them. Frankly a Cessna Caravan like the Iraqis fly would be good over a patrol. Yes, they pay for them. I am trying to figure out why the Chiefs don't think how this would be more useful to the regular Army though. meh. |
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Or we quit pussy footing around the politics and let the Buffs/Bones do what they were designed to do. Bombers playing CAS Flatten the mountains and to hell with what everyone thinks of us. Well aren't you an enlightened one. What did these mountains do to you? Quoted:
No 105mm howitzer. When you have artillery that can range the target you are a lot less likely to need it. |
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Or we quit pussy footing around the politics and let the Buffs/Bones do what they were designed to do. Bombers playing CAS Flatten the mountains and to hell with what everyone thinks of us. Thank God! I though I was the only one. |
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Why is it such a fucked up process to get the guys some damn air support, it seems like every other week we have a thread about how some new CAS plane would be awesome but they aren't going to implement it or they cant make up their minds on what to do. Seriously how many different airframes did the US put out in WW2, I know the tech is more advanced for newer aircraft, but for Christ sakes you don't need a fucking F-22 to shoot or bomb the shit out of assholes on the ground.
If I've got it all wrong please educate me, I'm just guessing here, from the outside looking in it looks like the people who decide what gets bought are acting like little spoiled brats |
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Quoted: Or we quit pussy footing around the politics and let the Buffs/Bones do what they were designed to do. Bombers playing CAS Flatten the mountains and to hell with what everyone thinks of us. Nukes have a hard enough time leveling mountains, how are you going to level mountains with conventional bombs? Places like Iwo Jima, we pounded the shit out of the beach head and mountain with some of the biggest and most powerful guns ever made. And it still ended up being a major meat grinder for the Marines. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Or we quit pussy footing around the politics and let the Buffs/Bones do what they were designed to do. Bombers playing CAS Flatten the mountains and to hell with what everyone thinks of us. Nukes have a hard enough time leveling mountains, how are you going to level mountains with conventional bombs? I don't know, but I think we should try. |
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Quoted: Why is it such a fucked up process to get the guys some damn air support, it seems like every other week we have a thread about how some new CAS plane would be awesome but they aren't going to implement it or they cant make up their minds on what to do. Seriously how many different airframes did the US put out in WW2, I know the tech is more advanced for newer aircraft, but for Christ sakes you don't need a fucking F-22 to shoot or bomb the shit out of assholes on the ground. If I've got it all wrong please educate me, I'm just guessing here, from the outside looking in it looks like the people who decide what gets bought are acting like little spoiled brats The Air Force is run by fighter pilots, that's why. |
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When you have coordinate seeking munitions you can hit the target. You don't have to blow everything up.
Just saying... |
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AFSOC always seems to find a way to get what they want. I don't think Alenia wasted their time with this.
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Off topic rant for whats it worth we could be blowing-up Afghani mud huts with A-7 pulled out of D-M. I drive pass them quite often, that would save the go-fasters from using up their airframe hours. Except that at the end of the A-7's life they were suffering from wing spar cracking that was expensive to fix. The cracks were so bad in the Navy that the only missions that wing limited A-7's could perform were CAP tanking and dedicated fuel waste missions. |
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A single 30mm cannon? Weak. A fucking Apache offers far more firepower than that. And we have a shitload of those already.
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All aircraft have issues.
This one must not have been that bad as the plane is not in a smoking hole in the ground. Quoted:
C-27 isn't anywhere near the aircraft a C130 is. You might as well be comparing a Cessna 150 to a Beechcraft King Air. And how about this? C-27s grounded after flight control failures The U.S. Air Force has grounded its fleet of C-27J cargo planes after an aircraft experienced a mechanical failure in part of its flight controls during a training sortie last week.
Air Force officials at the plane’s program office in Ohio ordered the grounding following the July 3 incident, which it is calling a “flight control problem,” according to a written statement provided by an Air Force spokeswoman. The Air Force has ordered an investigation into the incident. |
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Couldn't the same pallet system be rolled onto a C-130 in the same way? Then it would be a USMC C-130 gunship. |
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Bone 1-2 checking in, 84 GBU-38s, sniper pod, and 16to hours of play time.
Yeah Bone can you put one bomb on this hut over here? |
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Quoted: When you have coordinate seeking munitions you can hit the target. You don't have to blow everything up. Just saying... You military folks can (and please do) tell me if I'm being stupid, but I think it would be cool to have plenty of 'birds in the air' (for observation, if nothing else) that can at least immediately identify the enemy, and relay back those coordinates that you mention. Then, ideally, those guided munitions ('smart' artillery/mortar rounds?) could be on target within pretty short order, hopefully. I say hopefully, as I have no idea how long it takes your typical mortar/artillery round to reach the target (let's say attacking a COP, a fair old distance from the FOB, or wherever the rounds are departing). Is this sort of ability currently available (accurate rounds on target within 1 or 2 minutes), or is it something that you guys are still working on? I wonder about this, as I have seen numerous posts from people that are unhappy with airborne CAS, and how it often turns up late to the party, and by that point the insurgents have fled. Please illuminate my tiny, fragile little mind. |
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Bone 1-2 checking in, 84 GBU-38s, sniper pod, and 16to hours of play time. Yeah Bone can you put one bomb on this hut over here? A B1 costs about $62,500 an hour to fly. A Super Tucano is about $2,500 an hour. |
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This all goes back to the Caribou. The shit will never ever die. The USAF is the most spoiled bunch of whiny cry babies I ever saw in my life.
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A single 30mm cannon? Weak. A fucking Apache offers far more firepower than that. And we have a shitload of those already. Seriously? What's the playtime for an Apache in high/hot conditions? |
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You military folks can (and please do) tell me if I'm being stupid, but I think it would be cool to have plenty of 'birds in the air' (for observation, if nothing else) that can at least immediately identify the enemy, and relay back those coordinates that you mention. Then, ideally, those guided munitions ('smart' artillery/mortar rounds?) could be on target within pretty short order, hopefully. I say hopefully, as I have no idea how long it takes your typical mortar/artillery round to reach the target (let's say attacking a COP, a fair old distance from the FOB, or wherever the rounds are departing). Is this sort of ability currently available (accurate rounds on target within 1 or 2 minutes), or is it something that you guys are still working on? If you have a digital link between an FO (including an aircraft) and a HIMARS battery that is ready to shoot, you can have round on target in about two minutes (or less) plus time of flight. |
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The technology is there yes. Add in the requests for clearance and the bad guys have ate lunch taken a nap packed up and left before a round/bomb/missle hits
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Bone has enough firepower payload to make the Greek God's weep with envy.
But there are much cheaper ways to provide air support in places like Afghanistan without a sophisticated ADA network. That can also bring down the pain. I sorta like the idea though with COPs all over with 1 or 2 105s or 155s to have interlocking fires almost on any square foot of terrain in Afghanistan so you can get fire support right then and there, and not wait for a bird to show up. But oh no, collateral damage, and all that. |
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By the looks of this, the AC will have dual use Cargo/Gunship capability which may be attractive.
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That's pretty genius. ISR in the plane can locate the bad guys, then they can go handle it themself. Add a high powered ball camera and this would be a very, very capable airplane. They could follow a patrol, doing threat warning, watching for bad guys, and blowing them up if they got too close to the friendlies. So many possibilities... The Air Force should pick up a few of these.
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Couldn't the same pallet system be rolled onto a C-130 in the same way? Then it would be a USMC C-130 gunship. I really like their Harvest Hawk. Let's see we already have a plane that's going to be in the area, may as well strap a couple missles on the side and let it do support if it's not busy tanking at the moment. |
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This all goes back to the Caribou. The shit will never ever die. The USAF is the most spoiled bunch of whiny cry babies I ever saw in my life. How quickly can you paint a house with that broad brush? |
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I'll probably get bashed for say it, but oh well. I think these assets need to be much more available to Regular Army units who spend alot more time outside the wire than the SOCOM units that they fall under. IIRC, 130 Gunships have always been the domain of Special Operations. Since they belong to SOCOM it kind of stands to reason that they would spend most of their time with them. Frankly a Cessna Caravan like the Iraqis fly would be good over a patrol. Yes, they pay for them. I am trying to figure out why the Chiefs don't think how this would be more useful to the regular Army though. meh. It's been my experience that regular army units tend to use ACs as flying artillery I stead of an integrated ISR/CAS platform. Also the pinpoint nature of SOF missions is a better fit for an orbiting, side firing aircraft than a conventional type of mission that could span a much larger area. |
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This seems pretty weak, 200rpm of 30mm, compared to a Vietnam-war ac47 with 12,000rpm of 7.62. Sure, there's modern sensors and all, but the 30mm plus a m134 or two seems more useful.
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Quoted: Why is it such a fucked up process to get the guys some damn air support, it seems like every other week we have a thread about how some new CAS plane would be awesome but they aren't going to implement it or they cant make up their minds on what to do. Seriously how many different airframes did the US put out in WW2, I know the tech is more advanced for newer aircraft, but for Christ sakes you don't need a fucking F-22 to shoot or bomb the shit out of assholes on the ground. If I've got it all wrong please educate me, I'm just guessing here, from the outside looking in it looks like the people who decide what gets bought are acting like little spoiled brats Fighter Jock Mafia. |
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I'll probably get bashed for say it, but oh well. I think these assets need to be much more available to Regular Army units who spend alot more time outside the wire than the SOCOM units that they fall under. IIRC, 130 Gunships have always been the domain of Special Operations. I got to work with one once. It was the raddest 48 hours of my life. |
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Has anyone activated the Sylvan Signal yet?
I am embarrassed as fuck at what the AF did to the Army with the C-27 program, among other things, and I'm a Zoomie! |
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I'll probably get bashed for say it, but oh well. I think these assets need to be much more available to Regular Army units who spend alot more time outside the wire than the SOCOM units that they fall under. IIRC, 130 Gunships have always been the domain of Special Operations. Since they belong to SOCOM it kind of stands to reason that they would spend most of their time with them. Frankly a Cessna Caravan like the Iraqis fly would be good over a patrol. Yes, they pay for them. I am trying to figure out why the Chiefs don't think how this would be more useful to the regular Army though. meh. It's been my experience that regular army units tend to use ACs as flying artillery I stead of an integrated ISR/CAS platform. Also the pinpoint nature of SOF missions is a better fit for an orbiting, side firing aircraft than a conventional type of mission that could span a much larger area. That would be because af assets act as flying artillery and don't talk to army pukes. Non socom assets work so rarely with acs why would they know the difference? We had over 100 acs in vietnam, for reference. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: Has anyone activated the Sylvan Signal yet? Didn't take long. This issue really pisses the Colonel off. |
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