User Panel
Posted: 4/11/2024 10:04:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Everrest]
Washington Post Justice Dept. finalizes rules to close ‘gun show loophole’
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms (cold) A firearm with a pen laying on an official application to own or manufacture a firearm. On April 10, 2024, the Attorney General signed ATF’s final rule, Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms, amending ATF’s regulations in title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (“CFR”), part 478. The final rule implements the provisions of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (“BSCA,” effective June 25, 2022), which broadened the definition of when a person is considered “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms (other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker). The Final Rule clarifies that definition. It will be published in the Federal Register and will be effective 30-days from publication. This final rule incorporates BSCA’s definitions of “predominantly earn a profit” and “terrorism,” and amends the regulatory definitions of “engaged in the business as a dealer other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker” and “principal objective of livelihood and profit” to ensure each conforms with the BSCA’s statutory changes and can be relied upon by the public. The final rule clarifies when a person is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms at wholesale or retail by: clarifying the definition of “dealer,” and defining the terms “purchase,” “sale,” and “something of value” as they apply to dealers; adding definitions for the term “personal collection (or personal collection of firearms, or personal firearms collection),” and for “responsible person”; setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings; clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes; clarifying the circumstances when a person would not be presumed to engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, including as an auctioneer, or when purchasing firearms for, and selling firearms from, a personal collection; addressing the procedures former licensees, and responsible persons acting on behalf of such licensees, must follow when they liquidate business inventory upon revocation or other termination of their license; and clarifying that licensees must follow the verification and recordkeeping procedures in 27 CFR 478.94 and Subpart H, rather than using an ATF Form 4473 when firearms are transferred to other licensees, including transfers by a licensed sole proprietor to that person’s personal collection. Please note that this is the text of the final rule as signed by the Attorney General, but the official version of the final rule will be as it is published in the Federal Register. The rule will go into effect once it is published in the Federal Register. View Quote https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/ruling/atf-final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download (466 pages) ETA: BREAKING NEWS: ATF's New Rule Is LIVE & It Affects YOU! Engaged In The Business BREAKING NEWS: ATF's New Rule Is LIVE & It Affects YOU! Engaged In The Business ETA: 04/18/2024 Set to publish Friday 4/19/2024 Attached File Current links are to the unpublished: Federal Register: 04/18/2024 Public Inspection Issue Permalink: Bipartisan Safer Communities Act Conforming Regulations (Rule) Bipartisan Safer Communities Act Conforming Regulations (41 page Rule pdf) Permalink: Definition of Engaged in the Business as a Dealer in Firearms (416 pages) Definition of Engaged in the Business as a Dealer in Firearms (416 page PDF) ETA: 05/01/2024 Ar15.com: Texas AG Ken Paxton sues Biden Administration over ban on private firearms sales Texas AG Ken Paxton sues Biden Administration over ban on private firearms sales Kansas filed suit is Eastern District of Arkansas. https://ag.ks.gov/docs/default-source/documents/atf-complaint- same document from court listener Texas suit. Originally Posted By HistoricArmsLLC: Here is a link to the complaint (PDF): https://foundation.gunowners.org/files/legal/1%20-%20Complaint.pdf STATE OF TEXAS, STATE OF LOUISIANA, STATE OF MISSISSIPPI, STATE OF UTAH, JEFFREY W. TORMEY, GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA, INC., GUN OWNERS FOUNDATION, TENNESSEE FIREARMS ASSOCIATION, and VIRGINIA CITIZENS DEFENSE LEAGUE, Plaintiffs, v. BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, MERRICK GARLAND, in his official capacity as Attorney General of the United States, and STEVEN M. DETTELBACH, in his official capacity as Director of ATF, Defendants. View Quote |
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"Bureau of Alcohol, Snuff, Firearms and Explosives" Google translator. @Everrest
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Originally Posted By ricky_45: Wow. You had to assert that you were in it to make a profit or they would not give an FFL. Now, everyone who sells is presumed to be in it for profit and therefore you should be licensed? Hahaha. Everyone start applying for a license now. View Quote I dont think they changed the requirement to get an FFl, just the definition of what an illegal dealer is. so no they will not let you have an FFL from your kitchen table so you can buy guns at distributor prices. but they will put in you in jail for selling a few guns without the FFL they wont give you |
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Mach
Nobody is coming to save us. . |
Based on a scan of this, probably discussed already but you are guilty as hell until and unless you can find a way to make yourself innocent of these incestuous thoughts of profit.
“setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings;” |
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Originally Posted By Mach: I dont think they changed the requirement to get an FFl, just the definition of what an illegal dealer is. so no they will not let you have an FFL from your kitchen table so you can buy guns at distributor prices. but they will put in you in jail for selling a few guns without the FFL they wont give you View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Mach: Originally Posted By ricky_45: Wow. You had to assert that you were in it to make a profit or they would not give an FFL. Now, everyone who sells is presumed to be in it for profit and therefore you should be licensed? Hahaha. Everyone start applying for a license now. I dont think they changed the requirement to get an FFl, just the definition of what an illegal dealer is. so no they will not let you have an FFL from your kitchen table so you can buy guns at distributor prices. but they will put in you in jail for selling a few guns without the FFL they wont give you Yes they absolutely will give you a license to have an FFL from your kitchen table. If you can't get one from your house it is a local zoning issue. ATF has no problems with it. But they do require you comply with local laws so if the locals say no ATF won't issue. |
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Originally Posted By Kent: Probably, but before this rule, there wasn't much they could do about it. But now, "buying too many guns" is a chargeable felony. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Kent: Originally Posted By ragedracer1977: Originally Posted By SnoGoRider: I wonder if they're going to tap in the NICS now and start monitoring gun purchases of people buying multiple guns per month. You think they don't now?? Probably, but before this rule, there wasn't much they could do about it. But now, "buying too many guns" is a chargeable felony. No it is not. Possibly if you're selling them, but not buying them. |
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when the law suits going in ?
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Ha, get bent.
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Originally Posted By BSOG1: when the law suits going in ? View Quote
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"Bureau of Alcohol, Snuff, Firearms and Explosives" Google translator. @Everrest
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"Bureau of Alcohol, Snuff, Firearms and Explosives" Google translator. @Everrest
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When the law and your personal convictions are at an impasse, I suppose one has a decision to make.
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Is this currently in affect or pending approval?
Do I have to remove my ads? |
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I can't think of anything to say. Nada, zip, nothing.
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Sell, gun cases with a free gun.
Then you're not profiting off the gun. |
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The Republicans that allowed this shit to happen need to be tar and feathered. Now they are the protected class and untouchable in that manner.
Hiding random shit in bills that go through Congress needs to end. It's bullshit you vote on some say infrastructure bill but oh let's give gun control entities funding in that same bill. |
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It would be amazing if the unintentional end-state of this rule change were SCOTUS finding that there was no history, text, or tradition of FFLs.
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So if they are making it easier to call someone an FFL dealer, are they likewise going to make it easier to qulaify and be issued an FFL? It seems that everybody and their brother had an FFL until the 1990s when Clinton cracked down on "kitchen table" gun dealers by making it much harder to get an FFL. Now that everybody and their brother is about to be declared a gun dealer, if they maintain the current requirements, most of these folks who are now delcared to be dealers won't be able to get a license if they tried. I see a whole lot of the citizenry possibly being prosecuted going forward. Looks like another backdoor gun control scheme to me.
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Originally Posted By wyomingnick: No it is not. Possibly if you're selling them, but not buying them. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By wyomingnick: Originally Posted By Kent: Originally Posted By ragedracer1977: Originally Posted By SnoGoRider: I wonder if they're going to tap in the NICS now and start monitoring gun purchases of people buying multiple guns per month. You think they don't now?? Probably, but before this rule, there wasn't much they could do about it. But now, "buying too many guns" is a chargeable felony. No it is not. Possibly if you're selling them, but not buying them. Words matter in law. Notice in the quoted passage they say "purchased OR sold", and not "purchased AND sold". "However, there is no minimum threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers that determines whether a person is "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms. (emphasis added) They ALSO state (more than once) that no actual "sale" needs to actually occur to trigger the action. Those facts are what makes me believe that they can use "too many guns purchased" as the initiator, in whole or in significant part, for charging a person under this "rule". Overall, even beyond its unconstitutional regulatory components, it is just plain old "bad law", with contradictions, vagueness, and broad "open to interpretation" writing. It should be struck just on those components alone. But a challenge to the Rule takes time, and, until then, here we are. (and yes, I know it is a "rule", not an actual "law" -- a distinction without a difference as far as its ability to land you in jail) |
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also, as recently demonstrated, they reserve the right to come kill you in the middle of the night if they think you may have violated this.
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I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days?
All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. |
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I can't think of anything to say. Nada, zip, nothing.
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Originally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. View Quote No. No they don't. |
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I think it's inevitable this piece of shit rule will be challenged. But my question is who/what will be the first to have standing, and with what?
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If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
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Has anyone considered the Cloward and Piven angle of this?
It's QUICKLY gonna turn into "sorry everyone's backed up, gonna be a 30, 60, 90, 120day wait, nothing we can do " I'm sure that'd really hurt .govs feelings if people couldn't get their firearms expediently and they'd fix it as soon as possible though. Many of us in shit states have seen this scene play out. |
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Originally Posted By jnk556: It's fear mongering mostly.... Read this part here circled..... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/111395/Screenshot_20240411_211653_Drive-3185446.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By jnk556: Originally Posted By MeAndMyAR: Unless it’s a Curio and Relic, I get more recent makes sent to my FFL 01 guy whether I am buying it through an online dealer or private seller.. I rarely, if ever sell. I haven’t sold one in over 3 years. And if I did sell occasionally, I have read nothing in any of this that would affect me or 99% of the people here I would guess. It's fear mongering mostly.... Read this part here circled..... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/111395/Screenshot_20240411_211653_Drive-3185446.jpg What is the definition of a "personal protection firearm" ? To me, accumulate and collect have the same meaning. While firearms accumulated primarily for personal protection are not included in the definition of “personal collection,” the final rule makes clear that nothing in this rule shall be construed as precluding a person from lawfully acquiring a firearm for self-protection or other lawful personal use. |
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"Bureau of Alcohol, Snuff, Firearms and Explosives" Google translator. @Everrest
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in 30 years i never bought a gun from a private seller.
and if it was off the internet, it was shipped to a dealer. Originally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By BSOG1: in 30 years i never bought a gun from a private seller. and if it was off the internet, it was shipped to a dealer. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By BSOG1: in 30 years i never bought a gun from a private seller. and if it was off the internet, it was shipped to a dealer. Originally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. Going through an FFL does NOT shield you (an un-licensed person) from being judged to be an "unlicensed dealer in firearms" and thus subject to prosecution under this rule. Nothing I've read in the new rule exempts sales to/from an FFL when you as an unlicensed person are involved. |
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FTF
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In case you missed that feds, you are tyrannical shitbags. How can you live with being such freedom hating pieces of shits? Seriously
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In case you missed that feds, you are tyrannical shitbags. How can you live with being such freedom hating pieces of shits? Seriously
Double tap because the feds suck that bad needs to be said twice. |
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Originally Posted By JThompson: Jeeezzzz After reading through, I could still sell but must go through an FFL? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By JThompson: Originally Posted By realwar: It will go into to effect in 30 days. Jeeezzzz After reading through, I could still sell but must go through an FFL? You can do anything you want in Minecraft |
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"The villainy you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction"
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So as a good citizen I apply for an FFL. My town doesn't allow FFLs in residential neighborhoods. I also have a school within 1000 feet of my house.
FFL Denied. What is my recourse? |
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"Bureau of Alcohol, Snuff, Firearms and Explosives" Google translator. @Everrest
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I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
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Worst case/best case scenario- All "gun sales" are halted for a period of time and then when that gun owner dies, all the guns just filter out into society with zero trace. Sort of like Barn Finds.
I mean, you'll have to have brave and willing family, friends to assist with said filtering, but Nature finds a way. |
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So now a bill of sale is a bad thing 🤔
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"Don't want to be that guy with 100K primers who can't pay the electric bill."
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Originally Posted By Everrest: So as a good citizen I apply for an FFL. My town doesn't allow FFLs in residential neighborhoods. I also have a school within 1000 feet of my house. FFL Denied. What is my recourse? View Quote None. As designed. This rule isn't intended to preserve rights but rather to restrict rights. That people will be LESS able to buy/sell firearms is a feature, not a bug. |
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So all transactions at a gun buy back event are now illegal?
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Kinda thread drift kinda not. Example of double standard. Shootout this morning in Memphis, one officer killed one perp killed. Dead criminal was arrested and released on recognizance LAST MONTH for having a full auto Glock, stealing cars and device to steal cars.
Memphis cop killed story. The ATF / DOJ's only mission is to make criminals out of law abiding people. They will break you up to and including kill you over not buying a $200 stamp only if you are otherwise not a criminal. They are a fully weaponized gestapo charged with disarming political dissidents. |
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Originally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. View Quote Member for 3 years, and this is your second post... |
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Originally Posted By wyomingnick: Yes they absolutely will give you a license to have an FFL from your kitchen table. If you can't get one from your house it is a local zoning issue. ATF has no problems with it. But they do require you comply with local laws so if the locals say no ATF won't issue. View Quote The US is overrun by zoning and HOAs. They know that. It is part of their strategy. |
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Originally Posted By BSOG1: in 30 years i never bought a gun from a private seller. and if it was off the internet, it was shipped to a dealer. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By BSOG1: in 30 years i never bought a gun from a private seller. and if it was off the internet, it was shipped to a dealer. Originally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. When this fails to impact the thugs who buy stolen guns from other criminals they’ll use the failure to lobby for Universal Background Checks. When UBCs fail they’ll use that to promote universal registration. Criminals won’t care about getting caught with an unregistered gun, but Chad & Karen Whitebread will. It all crashes by design, crashes all around Chad & Karen, while criminals will perch upon the rubble. |
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Originally Posted By Kent: Going through an FFL does NOT shield you (an un-licensed person) from being judged to be an "unlicensed dealer in firearms" and thus subject to prosecution under this rule. Nothing I've read in the new rule exempts sales to/from an FFL when you as an unlicensed person are involved. View Quote I believe it might be stretched to this. Just as ‘straw purchase’ no longer means ‘buying a gun for a prohibited possessor’. |
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where's the law suits ?
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Throbbing Member. Viagra only made me taller.
NM, USA
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In addition to potentially being a backdoor form of registration, the dirty little secret of UBC's is that criminals will still get guns, but they will be more likely to try to steal yours since they can't just buy them from a dealer.
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"If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences."--W.I. Thomas _____________________ "If you ever really need a gun, you'll need it more than anything else you've ever needed in your life." |
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Originally Posted By Missilegeek: So a rule that presumes guilt based on common and reasonable circumstances. The judiciary is going to love that lol. The ATF rules they have put forth under the Biden regime, are what is commonly referred to as a pattern of misconduct in the legal community. View Quote Not unless you can get multiple courts to agree they aren't... |
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Originally Posted By Mach: I dont think they changed the requirement to get an FFl, just the definition of what an illegal dealer is. so no they will not let you have an FFL from your kitchen table so you can buy guns at distributor prices. but they will put in you in jail for selling a few guns without the FFL they wont give you View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Mach: Originally Posted By ricky_45: Wow. You had to assert that you were in it to make a profit or they would not give an FFL. Now, everyone who sells is presumed to be in it for profit and therefore you should be licensed? Hahaha. Everyone start applying for a license now. I dont think they changed the requirement to get an FFl, just the definition of what an illegal dealer is. so no they will not let you have an FFL from your kitchen table so you can buy guns at distributor prices. but they will put in you in jail for selling a few guns without the FFL they wont give you This would be comical if it wasnt a pretty good summary. |
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