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Posted: 4/14/2024 12:41:22 AM EDT
My trainer has 5. Lol. He gotta pump those numbers up. https://youtu.be/0RvRESjM2jw?si=9605u3qEs4MSOtgT |
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Originally Posted By macman37: Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Do you suppose there's any chance that the 99 .50 Cal rounds landing around his position might have effected his marksmanship a tad? Don't know. Probably. You know what really tends to effect people's marksmanship a lot more than rounds landing around them? Actually getting hit with half a dozen .50 BMG API rounds. Like taking a solid .50 BMG API bukakke to the face right off the bat. Your opinion is really pretty irrelevant. So is mine. Establishing fire superiority with suppressing fire, then maneuvering on the enemy, has been the baseline infantry doctrine for longer than any of us has been alive. It has been proven countless times, and adopted by every Army on the planet. Arguing against it is absolute nonsense. At no point have I argued against Infantry doctrine. There is nothing in any copy of any edition of the 7-8 or 3-21.8 that I possess in my personal library that contradicts anything I have said in this thread. Or maybe there is but I need one of Haley's ocular scientists to find it for me. Suppressing fire is part of basic doctrine. It applies to gun fights at every echelon, starting with individual and 2 man buddy team movements. This is the most basic and fundamental of concepts. It is taught to cooks at basic training. So your guy who barely passes basic marksmanship, has the same level of training on maneuver tactics... There are very good reasons for that, that are very well proven. So while hits are better than misses, suppressing fire is a known, expected and useful part of a lot of gun fights of all sizes, shapes and distances. This includes plenty of individual gun fights and self defense shoots. All of the clowns in this thread that have shown zero understanding of this, are in fact arguing against doctrine. If you don't understand that "misses" in the form of suppressive fire is a known and important tool to be used in gunfights... Well, you are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. And yes, you don't need ocular scientists to figure out basic fundamentals of shooting, nor basic tactics. Nor do you need to spend hours studying anatomy to be ready to carry a gun. Obviously Haley doesn't know everything and should better stick to talking about facts. Stoeger may be a pistol savant, but it seems he is just learning to use a rifle and scope, so like all the rest of us, he has a lot to learn. Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. Dramatic Footage Shows Dallas Officer Shot |
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Originally Posted By Missilegeek: You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 View Quote Hits would have suppressed that guy better and ended it sooner. |
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"Ever notice bitches from the toothpaste country are always ugly? What's up with that?" -PraesidiumFabrica
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Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Hits would have suppressed that guy better and ended it sooner. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 Hits would have suppressed that guy better and ended it sooner. Yeah but that's often not how it works out. Anyone who has done force on force training has seen similar things, often. Regardless of shooter skill, it happens, a lot. If just getting better at shooting was all that mattered, most of us wouldn't bother to carry guns that hold 13+ in the mag. Anyone who isn't a fool knows there's likely to be a lot of missing, and hits that don't fully incapacitate the threat. Some people may not like it, but those are the facts. |
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Originally Posted By fastluck13: You are correct. And competition shooters practice shooting moving targets. Weird, almost like it is useful… View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By fastluck13: Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Hits would have suppressed that guy better and ended it sooner. You are correct. And competition shooters practice shooting moving targets. Weird, almost like it is useful… What targets have you seen at competition that you think do a good job of replicating human movement? |
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Originally Posted By StevenH: Call it a shooting box then. Do you deny the benefits of firing a less than perfectly aimed shot while moving to cover? Aka suppressive fire View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By macman37: Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. In Sims training, when starting with two students in the open. The winner is often the person who runs to cover while point shooting, then, upon reaching cover, switches to aimed fire. Versus someone who stays on the X and goes immediately to aimed fire I have also never seen anyone teach “staying on the X” Call it a shooting box then. Do you deny the benefits of firing a less than perfectly aimed shot while moving to cover? Aka suppressive fire For better discussion, define the situation better for both of us. It’s just not that simple. If you’ve trained with someone preaching suppressive fire you need to re-evaluate who’s teaching you military tactics that could get you in major legal trouble. |
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Soli Deo Gloria |
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Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: I was reading a book one time where this guy talked about people who argued like that. He went on to remark that he gradually began to hate them. He might have been a little over emotional about it though, seemed a little upsetty spaghetti about not getting into art school. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By BMSMB: Why are you pretending a hit to the C and D zones arent still wounding or potentially fatal hits? I was reading a book one time where this guy talked about people who argued like that. He went on to remark that he gradually began to hate them. He might have been a little over emotional about it though, seemed a little upsetty spaghetti about not getting into art school. |
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Soli Deo Gloria |
Originally Posted By Missilegeek: You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Do you suppose there's any chance that the 99 .50 Cal rounds landing around his position might have effected his marksmanship a tad? Don't know. Probably. You know what really tends to effect people's marksmanship a lot more than rounds landing around them? Actually getting hit with half a dozen .50 BMG API rounds. Like taking a solid .50 BMG API bukakke to the face right off the bat. Your opinion is really pretty irrelevant. So is mine. Establishing fire superiority with suppressing fire, then maneuvering on the enemy, has been the baseline infantry doctrine for longer than any of us has been alive. It has been proven countless times, and adopted by every Army on the planet. Arguing against it is absolute nonsense. At no point have I argued against Infantry doctrine. There is nothing in any copy of any edition of the 7-8 or 3-21.8 that I possess in my personal library that contradicts anything I have said in this thread. Or maybe there is but I need one of Haley's ocular scientists to find it for me. Suppressing fire is part of basic doctrine. It applies to gun fights at every echelon, starting with individual and 2 man buddy team movements. This is the most basic and fundamental of concepts. It is taught to cooks at basic training. So your guy who barely passes basic marksmanship, has the same level of training on maneuver tactics... There are very good reasons for that, that are very well proven. So while hits are better than misses, suppressing fire is a known, expected and useful part of a lot of gun fights of all sizes, shapes and distances. This includes plenty of individual gun fights and self defense shoots. All of the clowns in this thread that have shown zero understanding of this, are in fact arguing against doctrine. If you don't understand that "misses" in the form of suppressive fire is a known and important tool to be used in gunfights... Well, you are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. And yes, you don't need ocular scientists to figure out basic fundamentals of shooting, nor basic tactics. Nor do you need to spend hours studying anatomy to be ready to carry a gun. Obviously Haley doesn't know everything and should better stick to talking about facts. Stoeger may be a pistol savant, but it seems he is just learning to use a rifle and scope, so like all the rest of us, he has a lot to learn. Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 Right. You’re now refocusing what you were saying earlier. You spoke to strictly suppressive fire previously. Now you’re saying moving targets are hard to hit, which I think anyone who’s a trainer or has taken good training will agree with. I get what you’re saying about people not wanting to get shot and thus resulting in misses. If you meant that all along, you shouldn't spray “suppressive fire works!!!!” on the internet and then redefine it later to mean something different, as you just did. |
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Soli Deo Gloria |
Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Transition work as well as shooting on the move. Both simulate moving targets. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: What targets have you seen at competition that you think do a good job of replicating human movement? Transition work as well as shooting on the move. Both simulate moving targets. And drop turners, swingers behind cover, bobbers, clam shells, stars, polish plate racks, Irish plate racks, spinners, etc. Movement is movement. It develops transferable skills. |
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Originally Posted By fastluck13: And drop turners, swingers behind cover, bobbers, clam shells, stars, polish plate racks, Irish plate racks, spinners, etc. Movement is movement. It develops transferable skills. View Quote Yep, all of that too. I have actually seen some stages with targets on rolling carriages, but not common and I’ve not shot any. |
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Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Yep, all of that too. I have actually seen some stages with targets on rolling carriages, but not common and I’ve not shot any. View Quote Those are actually really easy to shoot. Almost may as well be static. This past Tuesday we had a star, polish, Irish, and a spinner for movers. I won Ltd Optics… TNS Score |
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Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Yep, all of that too. I have actually seen some stages with targets on rolling carriages, but not common and I’ve not shot any. View Quote We had a small indoor match with a rolling carriage on a little roller coaster, it would change height and speed based on the hills in the tracks as it went across the stage, Popping out from NS. It was a lot of fun. Another place used bianchi movers, sometime you would should from the back of a moving trailer. And an occasional swinging bridge. |
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Originally Posted By fastluck13: Those are actually really easy to shoot. Almost may as well be static. This past Tuesday we had a star, polish, Irish, and a spinner for movers. I won Ltd Optics… TNS Score View Quote |
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"Byte My Shiny Metal Brass"
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Originally Posted By fastluck13: Those are actually really easy to shoot. Almost may as well be static. This past Tuesday we had a star, polish, Irish, and a spinner for movers. I won Ltd Optics… TNS Score View Quote Depends on how fast it's moving. Slow is no fun. |
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"Ever notice bitches from the toothpaste country are always ugly? What's up with that?" -PraesidiumFabrica
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Originally Posted By BMSMB: https://gifdb.com/images/high/we-re-not-worthy-gif-file-1011kb-1g8v53ozxwdhx5cd.gif View Quote Aww. You’re sweet. |
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Originally Posted By macman37: Right. You’re now refocusing what you were saying earlier. You spoke to strictly suppressive fire previously. Now you’re saying moving targets are hard to hit, which I think anyone who’s a trainer or has taken good training will agree with. I get what you’re saying about people not wanting to get shot and thus resulting in misses. If you meant that all along, you shouldn't spray “suppressive fire works!!!!” on the internet and then redefine it later to mean something different, as you just did. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Do you suppose there's any chance that the 99 .50 Cal rounds landing around his position might have effected his marksmanship a tad? Don't know. Probably. You know what really tends to effect people's marksmanship a lot more than rounds landing around them? Actually getting hit with half a dozen .50 BMG API rounds. Like taking a solid .50 BMG API bukakke to the face right off the bat. Your opinion is really pretty irrelevant. So is mine. Establishing fire superiority with suppressing fire, then maneuvering on the enemy, has been the baseline infantry doctrine for longer than any of us has been alive. It has been proven countless times, and adopted by every Army on the planet. Arguing against it is absolute nonsense. At no point have I argued against Infantry doctrine. There is nothing in any copy of any edition of the 7-8 or 3-21.8 that I possess in my personal library that contradicts anything I have said in this thread. Or maybe there is but I need one of Haley's ocular scientists to find it for me. Suppressing fire is part of basic doctrine. It applies to gun fights at every echelon, starting with individual and 2 man buddy team movements. This is the most basic and fundamental of concepts. It is taught to cooks at basic training. So your guy who barely passes basic marksmanship, has the same level of training on maneuver tactics... There are very good reasons for that, that are very well proven. So while hits are better than misses, suppressing fire is a known, expected and useful part of a lot of gun fights of all sizes, shapes and distances. This includes plenty of individual gun fights and self defense shoots. All of the clowns in this thread that have shown zero understanding of this, are in fact arguing against doctrine. If you don't understand that "misses" in the form of suppressive fire is a known and important tool to be used in gunfights... Well, you are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. And yes, you don't need ocular scientists to figure out basic fundamentals of shooting, nor basic tactics. Nor do you need to spend hours studying anatomy to be ready to carry a gun. Obviously Haley doesn't know everything and should better stick to talking about facts. Stoeger may be a pistol savant, but it seems he is just learning to use a rifle and scope, so like all the rest of us, he has a lot to learn. Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 Right. You’re now refocusing what you were saying earlier. You spoke to strictly suppressive fire previously. Now you’re saying moving targets are hard to hit, which I think anyone who’s a trainer or has taken good training will agree with. I get what you’re saying about people not wanting to get shot and thus resulting in misses. If you meant that all along, you shouldn't spray “suppressive fire works!!!!” on the internet and then redefine it later to mean something different, as you just did. As I've already stated, suppressive fire can be the result of both deliberate or unintended misses. It's an effect, not necessarily an intention. See also Dallas cop video from previous posts. |
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Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Yep, all of that too. I have actually seen some stages with targets on rolling carriages, but not common and I’ve not shot any. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Originally Posted By fastluck13: And drop turners, swingers behind cover, bobbers, clam shells, stars, polish plate racks, Irish plate racks, spinners, etc. Movement is movement. It develops transferable skills. Yep, all of that too. I have actually seen some stages with targets on rolling carriages, but not common and I’ve not shot any. I agree with the examples given as useful shooting drills for building skills to engage moving targets. But they don't replicate human movements and the difficulty of engaging people in a fight worth a damn. It's REALLY easy to tell who in this thread has some force on force training and who doesn't. |
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Originally Posted By Missilegeek: As I've already stated, suppressive fire can be the result of both deliberate or unintended misses. It's an effect, not necessarily an intention. See also Dallas cop video from previous posts. View Quote What happens when your deliberate miss hits an innocent person downrange. They aren't going to respawn like your call of duty video games |
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Originally Posted By Missilegeek: As I've already stated, suppressive fire can be the result of both deliberate or unintended misses. It's an effect, not necessarily an intention. See also Dallas cop video from previous posts. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Do you suppose there's any chance that the 99 .50 Cal rounds landing around his position might have effected his marksmanship a tad? Don't know. Probably. You know what really tends to effect people's marksmanship a lot more than rounds landing around them? Actually getting hit with half a dozen .50 BMG API rounds. Like taking a solid .50 BMG API bukakke to the face right off the bat. Your opinion is really pretty irrelevant. So is mine. Establishing fire superiority with suppressing fire, then maneuvering on the enemy, has been the baseline infantry doctrine for longer than any of us has been alive. It has been proven countless times, and adopted by every Army on the planet. Arguing against it is absolute nonsense. At no point have I argued against Infantry doctrine. There is nothing in any copy of any edition of the 7-8 or 3-21.8 that I possess in my personal library that contradicts anything I have said in this thread. Or maybe there is but I need one of Haley's ocular scientists to find it for me. Suppressing fire is part of basic doctrine. It applies to gun fights at every echelon, starting with individual and 2 man buddy team movements. This is the most basic and fundamental of concepts. It is taught to cooks at basic training. So your guy who barely passes basic marksmanship, has the same level of training on maneuver tactics... There are very good reasons for that, that are very well proven. So while hits are better than misses, suppressing fire is a known, expected and useful part of a lot of gun fights of all sizes, shapes and distances. This includes plenty of individual gun fights and self defense shoots. All of the clowns in this thread that have shown zero understanding of this, are in fact arguing against doctrine. If you don't understand that "misses" in the form of suppressive fire is a known and important tool to be used in gunfights... Well, you are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. And yes, you don't need ocular scientists to figure out basic fundamentals of shooting, nor basic tactics. Nor do you need to spend hours studying anatomy to be ready to carry a gun. Obviously Haley doesn't know everything and should better stick to talking about facts. Stoeger may be a pistol savant, but it seems he is just learning to use a rifle and scope, so like all the rest of us, he has a lot to learn. Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 Right. You’re now refocusing what you were saying earlier. You spoke to strictly suppressive fire previously. Now you’re saying moving targets are hard to hit, which I think anyone who’s a trainer or has taken good training will agree with. I get what you’re saying about people not wanting to get shot and thus resulting in misses. If you meant that all along, you shouldn't spray “suppressive fire works!!!!” on the internet and then redefine it later to mean something different, as you just did. As I've already stated, suppressive fire can be the result of both deliberate or unintended misses. It's an effect, not necessarily an intention. See also Dallas cop video from previous posts. You’re getting a lot of mileage out of the single example that fits your singular opinion. |
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Soli Deo Gloria |
Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I agree with the examples given as useful shooting drills for building skills to engage moving targets. But they don't replicate human movements and the difficulty of engaging people in a fight worth a damn. It's REALLY easy to tell who in this thread has some force on force training and who doesn't. View Quote So, you shoot at moving people in said training? |
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Originally Posted By macman37: You’re getting a lot of mileage out of the single example that fits your singular opinion. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Do you suppose there's any chance that the 99 .50 Cal rounds landing around his position might have effected his marksmanship a tad? Don't know. Probably. You know what really tends to effect people's marksmanship a lot more than rounds landing around them? Actually getting hit with half a dozen .50 BMG API rounds. Like taking a solid .50 BMG API bukakke to the face right off the bat. Your opinion is really pretty irrelevant. So is mine. Establishing fire superiority with suppressing fire, then maneuvering on the enemy, has been the baseline infantry doctrine for longer than any of us has been alive. It has been proven countless times, and adopted by every Army on the planet. Arguing against it is absolute nonsense. At no point have I argued against Infantry doctrine. There is nothing in any copy of any edition of the 7-8 or 3-21.8 that I possess in my personal library that contradicts anything I have said in this thread. Or maybe there is but I need one of Haley's ocular scientists to find it for me. Suppressing fire is part of basic doctrine. It applies to gun fights at every echelon, starting with individual and 2 man buddy team movements. This is the most basic and fundamental of concepts. It is taught to cooks at basic training. So your guy who barely passes basic marksmanship, has the same level of training on maneuver tactics... There are very good reasons for that, that are very well proven. So while hits are better than misses, suppressing fire is a known, expected and useful part of a lot of gun fights of all sizes, shapes and distances. This includes plenty of individual gun fights and self defense shoots. All of the clowns in this thread that have shown zero understanding of this, are in fact arguing against doctrine. If you don't understand that "misses" in the form of suppressive fire is a known and important tool to be used in gunfights... Well, you are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. And yes, you don't need ocular scientists to figure out basic fundamentals of shooting, nor basic tactics. Nor do you need to spend hours studying anatomy to be ready to carry a gun. Obviously Haley doesn't know everything and should better stick to talking about facts. Stoeger may be a pistol savant, but it seems he is just learning to use a rifle and scope, so like all the rest of us, he has a lot to learn. Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 Right. You’re now refocusing what you were saying earlier. You spoke to strictly suppressive fire previously. Now you’re saying moving targets are hard to hit, which I think anyone who’s a trainer or has taken good training will agree with. I get what you’re saying about people not wanting to get shot and thus resulting in misses. If you meant that all along, you shouldn't spray “suppressive fire works!!!!” on the internet and then redefine it later to mean something different, as you just did. As I've already stated, suppressive fire can be the result of both deliberate or unintended misses. It's an effect, not necessarily an intention. See also Dallas cop video from previous posts. You’re getting a lot of mileage out of the single example that fits your singular opinion. Do you think that's the only example or some sort of rare exception? What force on force training have you done? |
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View Quote Ok. |
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This thread is lol to the max.
Just another example of bad shooters justifying their poor performance with strawman arguments or citing poor performance and bad training as the reason why things aren't possible. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Do you think that's the only example or some sort of rare exception? What force on force training have you done? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: Do you suppose there's any chance that the 99 .50 Cal rounds landing around his position might have effected his marksmanship a tad? Don't know. Probably. You know what really tends to effect people's marksmanship a lot more than rounds landing around them? Actually getting hit with half a dozen .50 BMG API rounds. Like taking a solid .50 BMG API bukakke to the face right off the bat. Your opinion is really pretty irrelevant. So is mine. Establishing fire superiority with suppressing fire, then maneuvering on the enemy, has been the baseline infantry doctrine for longer than any of us has been alive. It has been proven countless times, and adopted by every Army on the planet. Arguing against it is absolute nonsense. At no point have I argued against Infantry doctrine. There is nothing in any copy of any edition of the 7-8 or 3-21.8 that I possess in my personal library that contradicts anything I have said in this thread. Or maybe there is but I need one of Haley's ocular scientists to find it for me. Suppressing fire is part of basic doctrine. It applies to gun fights at every echelon, starting with individual and 2 man buddy team movements. This is the most basic and fundamental of concepts. It is taught to cooks at basic training. So your guy who barely passes basic marksmanship, has the same level of training on maneuver tactics... There are very good reasons for that, that are very well proven. So while hits are better than misses, suppressing fire is a known, expected and useful part of a lot of gun fights of all sizes, shapes and distances. This includes plenty of individual gun fights and self defense shoots. All of the clowns in this thread that have shown zero understanding of this, are in fact arguing against doctrine. If you don't understand that "misses" in the form of suppressive fire is a known and important tool to be used in gunfights... Well, you are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts. And yes, you don't need ocular scientists to figure out basic fundamentals of shooting, nor basic tactics. Nor do you need to spend hours studying anatomy to be ready to carry a gun. Obviously Haley doesn't know everything and should better stick to talking about facts. Stoeger may be a pistol savant, but it seems he is just learning to use a rifle and scope, so like all the rest of us, he has a lot to learn. Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. You don't have to teach it or do it deliberately for it to be a thing. That's just how gun fights work. The facts are that people tend to move around and not wanna get shot. Regardless of what you think your skill level is, moving targets are hard to hit. What you can end up with is something like this. Near misses resulting in effective suppressing fire, maneuver to a position of advantage... And the ending isn't exactly decided in a manner that's impressive from a marksmanship standpoint. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpb-mtjN9q8 Right. You’re now refocusing what you were saying earlier. You spoke to strictly suppressive fire previously. Now you’re saying moving targets are hard to hit, which I think anyone who’s a trainer or has taken good training will agree with. I get what you’re saying about people not wanting to get shot and thus resulting in misses. If you meant that all along, you shouldn't spray “suppressive fire works!!!!” on the internet and then redefine it later to mean something different, as you just did. As I've already stated, suppressive fire can be the result of both deliberate or unintended misses. It's an effect, not necessarily an intention. See also Dallas cop video from previous posts. You’re getting a lot of mileage out of the single example that fits your singular opinion. Do you think that's the only example or some sort of rare exception? What force on force training have you done? You seem to, since you’re spamming the thread with it. |
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Soli Deo Gloria |
View Quote I don’t like him….but I do… I believe him and Haley live in the PHX area now. Will be interesting when paths cross. Or not. |
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Originally Posted By Missilegeek: It's REALLY easy to tell who in this thread has some force on force training and who doesn't. View Quote I've had force on force training. You've been given examples of common moving targets, some of which are or can be depending on setup more difficult to hit than a person moving the way people do. You'll probably never be someone who has shot at both, so you'll just have to take my word for it. |
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"Ever notice bitches from the toothpaste country are always ugly? What's up with that?" -PraesidiumFabrica
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: This thread is lol to the max. Just another example of bad shooters justifying their poor performance with strawman arguments or citing poor performance and bad training as the reason why things aren't possible. View Quote Not quite lol to the max. The funniest post in the thread would have been funnier if I'd posted it yesterday. |
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"Ever notice bitches from the toothpaste country are always ugly? What's up with that?" -PraesidiumFabrica
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"Byte My Shiny Metal Brass"
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Originally Posted By BMSMB: So have kids in Africa View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By BMSMB: Originally Posted By Singlestack_Wonder: Travis has participated in real world gunfights and has proven himself. So have kids in Africa That's a good arf poll: Would you rather have a platoon of competition shooters or a platoon of battle proven African child soldiers? |
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Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I agree with the examples given as useful shooting drills for building skills to engage moving targets. But they don't replicate human movements and the difficulty of engaging people in a fight worth a damn. It's REALLY easy to tell who in this thread has some force on force training and who doesn't. View Quote I’ve done my fair share of FoF. It’s an excellent part of training. Unfortunately it’s pretty impractical to set up with any regularity for most cops, much less for non-LE. I’ve found that my performance in FoF stuff improved when I began focusing more on dry fire and shooting with a timer. The hard skills translate to everything else, in my experience. Shooting under time/stress makes everything slow down, IMO. force on force included. |
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Originally Posted By Singlestack_Wonder: Travis has participated in real world gunfights and has proven himself. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Singlestack_Wonder: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: At some point I wish all these guys would shoot in some big matches so we can really see which "systems" prevail. Proven himself as what? Be specific. I won't speak for everyone but as I stated before I am aware of his service and well aware that he was a good soldier. This is about firearms training. |
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BikerNut:
Normal people like motorcycles. Real people like motorcycles. People who don't like motorcycles are just... weird. |
All the timmies vastly overestimate shooting skill.
Imagine if you did not know how to walk. Would you argue that learnings tactics was more important than learning to walk? USPSA B class isn't even that good, and yet they are better than the vast majority of gun owners, including LEO/Mil. Teaching tactics to someone that can shoot is easier than teaching skill to someone that can't shoot. Would you want to rely on a squadmate that can't shoot? |
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Originally Posted By Singlestack_Wonder: Travis has participated in real world gunfights and has proven himself. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Singlestack_Wonder: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: At some point I wish all these guys would shoot in some big matches so we can really see which "systems" prevail. Would you say his real world gunfighting experience was 99.9% rifle? |
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Nine pages devoted to picking apart one sentence from a guy who’s done a lot of good things in the training world.
Let nobody ever tell you Arfcom is not 100% autism-enabled. ‘Tay frothty Affbros! |
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Soli Deo Gloria |
Originally Posted By macman37: Nine pages devoted to picking apart one sentence from a guy who’s done a lot of good things in the training world. Let nobody ever tell you Arfcom is not 100% autism-enabled. ‘Tay frothty Affbros! View Quote There's maybe one page worth of posts about the actual comment in question. The rest is poo flinging between people who can shoot good and people who have reasons why its okay that they don't shoot good. |
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"Ever notice bitches from the toothpaste country are always ugly? What's up with that?" -PraesidiumFabrica
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Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: There's maybe one page worth of posts about the actual comment in question. The rest is poo flinging between people who can shoot good and people who have reasons why its okay that they don't shoot good. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By macman37: Nine pages devoted to picking apart one sentence from a guy who’s done a lot of good things in the training world. Let nobody ever tell you Arfcom is not 100% autism-enabled. ‘Tay frothty Affbros! There's maybe one page worth of posts about the actual comment in question. The rest is poo flinging between people who can shoot good and people who have reasons why its okay that they don't shoot good. That’s how I am seeing it too. Confirmation bias and Dunning Kruger all up in this bitch. |
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Let's Go Red Wings!
Beautifying the world one logo at a time since 1993. Soli Deo Gloria |
Originally Posted By LuckyDucky: All the timmies vastly overestimate shooting skill. Imagine if you did not know how to walk. Would you argue that learnings tactics was more important than learning to walk? USPSA B class isn't even that good, and yet they are better than the vast majority of gun owners, including LEO/Mil. Teaching tactics to someone that can shoot is easier than teaching skill to someone that can't shoot. Would you want to rely on a squadmate that can't shoot? View Quote Squad mate for what? LARPing? |
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"Ever notice bitches from the toothpaste country are always ugly? What's up with that?" -PraesidiumFabrica
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Originally Posted By bg10: Transitions between targets placed a few feet apart. Drills like el pres, for example, do a great job simulating a moving target. View Quote I don't agree. Transitions are a thing one should know how to do, but transitions on the range do not come close to simulating engaging a moving target in the real world where you will have to consider changes in background and foreground as part of the calculation. Hitting a moving animal through the woods is a lot closer. Shot opportunities are fleeting and non-linear, usually. Background but especially foreground changes. Elevation changes. Target moves unpredictably. |
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RIP Todd Louis Green - Help research working on a cure for cancer!
http://rampageforthecure.org/ |
Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Depends on the specific Timmy in question but yeah that's probably a lot of them. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: Originally Posted By AbleArcher: Squad mate for what? LARPing? Depends on the specific Timmy in question but yeah that's probably a lot of them. Tactics are gay. Accuracy is final. |
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Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: There’s nothing wrong with teaching yourself. View Quote Very few people are autodidacts. Very few people have the capacity to coach themselves, at least until they've built significant skills. At a certain point you're the only person who can really teach you, but most people never really get there. There's definitely nothing wrong with teaching yourself but teaching yourself something you don't understand is more difficult. Most people don't really know how to teach, meaning if they are self taught they have really shitty instructors. Nothing will fuck you up faster than having a shitty instructor. It's easier to teach yourself if you have proficiency or mastery in something else with a lot of independent study because you already have a working model for achievement and analysis. |
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RIP Todd Louis Green - Help research working on a cure for cancer!
http://rampageforthecure.org/ |
Originally Posted By BMSMB: Good instructors will let you know what you need to work on, and will teach you how to properly practice it View Quote The most valuable thing an instructor can do is reframe your thinking on something to make the process you're going for more clear. What most people are looking for when they come to a class, though, is coaching. I've paid a lot of people for training over the years. Very few of them were any good as coaches. |
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RIP Todd Louis Green - Help research working on a cure for cancer!
http://rampageforthecure.org/ |
Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: So, you shoot at moving people in said training? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Originally Posted By Missilegeek: I agree with the examples given as useful shooting drills for building skills to engage moving targets. But they don't replicate human movements and the difficulty of engaging people in a fight worth a damn. It's REALLY easy to tell who in this thread has some force on force training and who doesn't. So, you shoot at moving people in said training? Yes. |
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Life member of CRPA. FPC contributor.
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Originally Posted By Missilegeek: If they will listen and follow, it is pretty easy to lead physically fit guys, who are proficient with their weapons and the basics. View Quote Saturday I taught a VPO class. Two people had optics mounts that were backwards. Proficiency with weapons is not even remotely common enough to do fire and maneuver stuff for the vast majority of people who are even conscientious enough to seek out training in the first place. |
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RIP Todd Louis Green - Help research working on a cure for cancer!
http://rampageforthecure.org/ |
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