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Posted: 4/20/2024 10:42:18 AM EDT
Trying to get a PPL. Have about 20 hours and 115 landings some good others not so much. This area has had a lot of wind, so training has been stretched out. CFI says I have all of it down except the last few seconds. Learned how to approach the runway and keep plane lined up until just before flare. Sometimes am little high, other times test the strength of the front gear. Depth perception a few feet off the runway is hard to get. CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane. Going to try that next week. Any other suggestions other than more practice.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 10:45:38 AM EDT
[#1]
What plane are you flying?
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Posted: 4/20/2024 10:46:37 AM EDT
[#2]
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 10:48:41 AM EDT
[#3]
Look to the end of the runway and try to NOT land….hold the plane 1’ off the runway for as long as you can. Ideally, hear the stall horn before you touch down.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 10:51:40 AM EDT
[#4]
*CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane
That should help |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 10:56:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#5]
Originally Posted By fast99: CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane. It sounds stupid, but remember that when you're just sitting on the ground in the airplane...that's the same picture in your peripheral vision as at the moment of touchdown. If you can calibrate what you see both out the windscreen (e.g. the relationship between the top of the cowling and the horizon in a proper flare attitude) and what you see out the side windows, that will also help you predict the right moment. If it makes you feel any better, this same skill is a challenge to pilots of all skill levels and experience, especially when transitioning to new airplanes or flying multiple different aircraft as a matter of routine. Look no further than the half-dozen airliners in the last 2-3 years that have been damaged in landing incidents tied to the training of new pilots. When you finish your PPL, you may want to think about getting training for a taildragger endorsement, as the ground perception skill is a core piece of the puzzle. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 10:59:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: memory_leak]
[#6]
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Posted: 4/20/2024 10:59:42 AM EDT
[#7]
Advice is solid. And, remember what it looks like when you do it right. When your brain connects it with good results, you’re learning. If you aren’t intentional about that and learning those references, it will take longer and you’ll continue with some being good and some being bad for a long time.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:00:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Generally, I treat it like the compressed surprise trigger break. I don't force the landing at a specific spot. I apply increasing back pressure on the yoke and let the plane land, without (consciously) trying to counteract ground effect, etc.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:00:58 AM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By fast99: Trying to get a PPL. Have about 20 hours and 115 landings some good others not so much. This area has had a lot of wind, so training has been stretched out. CFI says I have all of it down except the last few seconds. Learned how to approach the runway and keep plane lined up until just before flare. Sometimes am little high, other times test the strength of the front gear. Depth perception a few feet off the runway is hard to get. CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane. Going to try that next week. Any other suggestions other than more practice. Glance at your gauges often. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:02:34 AM EDT
[#10]
I had a hard time with it until I made EVERY landing a power off landing.
And look at the end of the runway. Hold it off and don’t be scared to cuss and get rough with it when it’s gusty and x-wind. Make that mf’er do what you want it to. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:04:07 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stevelish: Look to the end of the runway and try to NOT land….hold the plane 1’ off the runway for as long as you can. Ideally, hear the stall horn before you touch down. This, and keep flying the plane. Don't just flair and wait for it. Also, if you happen to wear no-line bifocal glasses, throw them away. Your peripheral vision helps you gauge your height above the ground. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:04:32 AM EDT
[#12]
Landing in severe crosswind is like having an orgasm and a bowel movement at the same time.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:04:56 AM EDT
[#13]
I assume a you mean a landing with no plane damage?
Shit eventually you will run out of fuel and land, it may not be pretty, but you will land. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:08:29 AM EDT
[#14]
I generally like to do it 99.87% perfectly. Then plop that fucker down.
I mean the plane still works so that’s good right? #THESTRUGGLEISREAL #IFEELYOURPAIN #METOO #MYCFIHASABADBACKNOW |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:10:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bogdan: Landing in severe crosswind is like having an orgasm and a bowel movement at the same time. Fun it is! |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:11:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bogdan: Landing in severe crosswind is like having an orgasm and a bowel movement at the same time. Is my slip showing? |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:12:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Also, I'm sure you were told this, but on final, control your airspeed with pitch, and your altitude/sink rate with the throttle.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:13:40 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: This, and keep flying the plane. Don't just flair and wait for it. Also, if you happen to wear no-line bifocal glasses, throw them away. Your peripheral vision helps you gauge your height above the ground. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: Originally Posted By stevelish: Look to the end of the runway and try to NOT land….hold the plane 1’ off the runway for as long as you can. Ideally, hear the stall horn before you touch down. This, and keep flying the plane. Don't just flair and wait for it. Also, if you happen to wear no-line bifocal glasses, throw them away. Your peripheral vision helps you gauge your height above the ground. Wait a second. I wear progressive lenses. Is that what you’re talking about? All joking aside I have a hell of a time with the last 5-10 feet when I’m landing. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:14:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dorobuta: Is my slip showing? Like whipping a dirt bike |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:14:25 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Anastasios: Fun it is! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Anastasios: Originally Posted By Bogdan: Landing in severe crosswind is like having an orgasm and a bowel movement at the same time. Fun it is! It's one of my favorite things to do. I've never understood the fear and loathing. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:15:25 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Yep, this is the standard method. Prior to the flare, you have to shift your point of focus to the end of the runway otherwise you won't perceive the "ground rush" in your peripheral vision that is necessary to anticipate where the wheels will touch down. It sounds stupid, but remember that when you're just sitting on the ground in the airplane...that's the same picture in your peripheral vision as at the moment of touchdown. If you can calibrate what you see both out the windscreen (e.g. the relationship between the top of the cowling and the horizon in a proper flare attitude) and what you see out the side windows, that will also help you predict the right moment. If it makes you feel any better, this same skill is a challenge to pilots of all skill levels and experience, especially when transitioning to new airplanes or flying multiple different aircraft as a matter of routine. Look no further than the half-dozen airliners in the last 2-3 years that have been damaged in landing incidents tied to the training of new pilots. When you finish your PPL, you may want to think about getting training for a taildragger endorsement, as the ground perception skill is a core piece of the puzzle. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By fast99: CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane. It sounds stupid, but remember that when you're just sitting on the ground in the airplane...that's the same picture in your peripheral vision as at the moment of touchdown. If you can calibrate what you see both out the windscreen (e.g. the relationship between the top of the cowling and the horizon in a proper flare attitude) and what you see out the side windows, that will also help you predict the right moment. If it makes you feel any better, this same skill is a challenge to pilots of all skill levels and experience, especially when transitioning to new airplanes or flying multiple different aircraft as a matter of routine. Look no further than the half-dozen airliners in the last 2-3 years that have been damaged in landing incidents tied to the training of new pilots. When you finish your PPL, you may want to think about getting training for a taildragger endorsement, as the ground perception skill is a core piece of the puzzle. One thing with peripheral vision is recognizing the runway you are landing at. Where I flew out of our runway was 200' wide but we did pattern work out of has a 75' runway. When I put it down back at the home patch the first time I flared rather high and punished the runway. 
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:16:50 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: It's one of my favorite things to do. I've never understood the fear and loathing. I didnt say I did not enjoy it :) |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:17:00 AM EDT
[#23]
I'd have a better chance of a safe landing by jumping out of the plane using the inflatable life raft as a parachute
I'd like to fly, but simulators is the best I'll ever get to my own plane. I "flew" a Cessna once, it was awesome. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:18:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: oscardeuce]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Anastasios: Glance at your gauges often. Not in the terminal phase. Your eye should be at the other end of the runway, keep centered with peripheral vision and end of runway. Cross threshold, cut power, let it settle, then bleed off airspeed with yoke/flare. Get a good stall horn going then just as the plane stops flying the wheels kiss. Keep the nose wheel up as long as possible too. Helps bleed off speed after touching down. Eyes straight ahead basically the whole time worked best for me. Familiarity with the plane like mud Eagle stated is the best. 600 hours in the O-2 and I almost didn’t need to look at airspeed, I could feel the speed with the sound of the wind and the feel of the controls. While I’m FAR from the world’s best pilot. I received many compliments from my flight review instructor in my landing techniques.  Attached FileHere I am a bit down the runway. Still nose high and pretty much in my belly. Rudder/brakes for directional control and ailerons as needed for the wind. Dad had a tailwheel biplane, and I landed almost in a 3 point attitude. I was at an airshow with thousands watching me. Thankfully I nailed it |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:19:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By denverdan: Wait a second. I wear progressive lenses. Is that what you’re talking about? All joking aside I have a hell of a time with the last 5-10 feet when I’m landing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By denverdan: Originally Posted By ske714: Originally Posted By stevelish: Look to the end of the runway and try to NOT land….hold the plane 1’ off the runway for as long as you can. Ideally, hear the stall horn before you touch down. This, and keep flying the plane. Don't just flair and wait for it. Also, if you happen to wear no-line bifocal glasses, throw them away. Your peripheral vision helps you gauge your height above the ground. Wait a second. I wear progressive lenses. Is that what you’re talking about? All joking aside I have a hell of a time with the last 5-10 feet when I’m landing. Yes. They suck. Get some traditional bi-focals. I like mine to have the line match the top of the instrument panel, with the bottom lens focused on the instruments. That way, I don't have to move my head. Get a pair like that just for flying, if that's what it takes. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:20:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Are you getting certified for VFR and IFR?
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:20:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Only if you want to use it again.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:25:07 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SmilingBandit: One thing with peripheral vision is recognizing the runway you are landing at. Where I flew out of our runway was 200' wide but we did pattern work out of has a 75' runway. When I put it down back at the home patch the first time I flared rather high and punished the runway. Great point -- another task pilots of all skill levels are challenged by. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:25:58 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bogdan: Landing in severe crosswind is like having an orgasm and a bowel movement at the same time. Lots of fun! Especially in a light airframe. 
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USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:26:27 AM EDT
[#30]
Be glad you're not landing a "tail dragger"
Guy I grew up around's family had an airport. His dad was a nut when it came to aerobatics. He had a '48 bellanca |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:28:24 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: Yes. They suck. Get some traditional bi-focals. I like mine to have the line match the top of the instrument panel, with the bottom lens focused on the instruments. That way, I don't have to move my head. Get a pair like that just for flying, if that's what it takes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: Originally Posted By denverdan: Originally Posted By ske714: Originally Posted By stevelish: Look to the end of the runway and try to NOT land….hold the plane 1’ off the runway for as long as you can. Ideally, hear the stall horn before you touch down. This, and keep flying the plane. Don't just flair and wait for it. Also, if you happen to wear no-line bifocal glasses, throw them away. Your peripheral vision helps you gauge your height above the ground. Wait a second. I wear progressive lenses. Is that what you’re talking about? All joking aside I have a hell of a time with the last 5-10 feet when I’m landing. Yes. They suck. Get some traditional bi-focals. I like mine to have the line match the top of the instrument panel, with the bottom lens focused on the instruments. That way, I don't have to move my head. Get a pair like that just for flying, if that's what it takes. Well shit I may have to do that. I have seriously been so frustrated with my landings. Like I stated in my previous post. I plop the plane down fairly often. Or conversely balloon it pretty good and practice my go around technique. Thanks for the tip. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:28:53 AM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By fast99: Trying to get a PPL. Have about 20 hours and 115 landings some good others not so much. This area has had a lot of wind, so training has been stretched out. CFI says I have all of it down except the last few seconds. Learned how to approach the runway and keep plane lined up until just before flare. Sometimes am little high, other times test the strength of the front gear. Depth perception a few feet off the runway is hard to get. CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane. Going to try that next week. Any other suggestions other than more practice. Congratulation on this! You’re going to get it, it’ll come with practice but as others have said just prior to flaring focus down the runway not directly in front of the aircraft. And don’t worry about the occasional hard landing, even guys that do it for a living bounce one once in a while. 
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:29:08 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Great point -- another task pilots of all skill levels are challenged by. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By SmilingBandit: One thing with peripheral vision is recognizing the runway you are landing at. Where I flew out of our runway was 200' wide but we did pattern work out of has a 75' runway. When I put it down back at the home patch the first time I flared rather high and punished the runway. Great point -- another task pilots of all skill levels are challenged by. That, and runways with a slope up or downhill. It's always something. And then there's night landings... |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:29:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By denverdan: Wait a second. I wear progressive lenses. Is that what you’re talking about? All joking aside I have a hell of a time with the last 5-10 feet when I’m landing. Yep -- ditch flying with progressive lenses, as they degrade your peripheral vision acuity. I learned this the hard way. I'm relatively new to wearing glasses here in middle age, and I was talked into getting progressive lenses without understanding this effect. When I went out to do my hobby flying in old taildraggers I basically completely lost the ability to see over at the edges of the lenses...which in something like a Stearman is the *only* place you have to look when you're in the landing phase. Much hilarity and suckage ensued. Once I went back to normal fixed lenses, suddenly I regained the necessary superpower to not completely suck at landings. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:29:54 AM EDT
[#35]
It will come to you OP. Like others have pointed out, look at the end of the runway.
I suggest more work with your instructor doing touch and goes, that's what he is trying to learn you. Don't beat yourself up about it. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:41:08 AM EDT
[#36]
Do you have any really long runways in the area? When I was doing flight training a nearby .mil base had closed
and had a very long runway (10,400 feet) and one of my instructors had me "drive" down the runway (wheels on ground) at near-flare attitude for about a mile a few time. You really got a sense of position from that. He also had a very good point, learning to land is actually easy, and in terms of total time in the air it's probably the lowest amount of time you spend -- it's just that landing time is built a few seconds per attempt, and that was the point of the above driving exercise, I was getting about 10-15 landing attempts worth of experience per "drive" down the runway. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:54:30 AM EDT
[#37]
Being stable on approach sets you up for better landings. Be on airspeed 1.3 Vso which is Vref, glide path and fully configured by 500 feet. Adjust glidepath with power and airspeed with pitch.
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 11:58:44 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bogdan: Landing in severe crosswind is like having an orgasm and a bowel movement at the same time. Landing a 172 with a variable and strong crosswind is more bowel movement and “holy shit I’m so glad to be on the ground right now.” At least it was for me the first time I dealt with it
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:04:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FreefallRet]
[#39]
Originally Posted By fast99: Trying to get a PPL. Have about 20 hours and 115 landings some good others not so much. This area has had a lot of wind, so training has been stretched out. CFI says I have all of it down except the last few seconds. Learned how to approach the runway and keep plane lined up until just before flare. Sometimes am little high, other times test the strength of the front gear. Depth perception a few feet off the runway is hard to get. CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane. Going to try that next week. Any other suggestions other than more practice. He had 150 landings before he soloed, but he was 15 and couldn't solo until he was 16. OP you need a Hawaiian shirt to land successfully, or that's what my son just said.  He flew early in the mornings when the wind wasn't bad, the day he soloed it was raining when he showed up. We waited about a hour and he knocked it out after the rain stopped. He has about six months before he turns 17 and has 44 hours so far.  |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:05:26 PM EDT
[#40]
Looking to the end of the runway is sound advice.
Also flying down the runway not allowing the wheels to touch is another good method to get the "picture' of what you need,even a 5-6k rumeay can provide that. I've flown the same plane for over 30yrs but on occasion some of my landings are less than Ideal.When I look back at them I find I was destracted by something,or my airspeed control was a bit off. You'll get it in time,stay after it!!! |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:10:00 PM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:11:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Wing low to maintain centerline. Opposite rudder to keep the nose straight.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:14:21 PM EDT
[#43]
I just let the autopilot do it!
 CAT II Autoland ANC RWY 7R |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:14:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FreefallRet]
[#44]
Also we did many one hour lessons between his training plan lessons of just taking off and landing.
So normal lessons and then one to two 8-9am lessons a week of just taking off and landing. The one hour lesson would cost $220 and some weeks it would easily fit into my sons and instructors schedule. For my son a hour was good as after a hour of take offs and landings he was ready for a break. He could do 6-7 landings in a hour in a hour. Good luck OP, I have done some flying with CAP and a few lessons. When my sons is done I am going to start learning to fly. Hopefully after all the studying with him it might be easier for me. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:14:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Kharn]
[#45]
Hold a 15 degree angle of attack, regardless of rate of descent or power level required. Eject if needed.
That's what Falcon 3.0 and 4.0 taught me. Kharn |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:19:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kharn: Hold a 15 degree angle of attack, regardless of rate of descent or power level required. Eject if needed. That's what Falcon 3.0 and 4.0 taught me. Kharn Is your avatar a picture of one of your landings? |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:20:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BillofRights]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LeMonde: *CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane I think it’s the Only way. Not so much a suggestion, but a rule. Practice slow flight until you’re comfortable in that regime. Do side slips while doing MCA. Both directions. Get comfortable with it. Remember what it sounds like and looks like. It’ll be the same in landing. If you have a home sim with rudders, it might even help to do this at home. Also, have your airspeed on short final precisely the same each time, and give it that last shot of trim so the yoke is neutral. The long runway “hover taxi” exercise is useful if you have a long runway available. The judicious use of power can make all your landings good, but that’s kinda advanced, and relying on it as a crutch might be negative transfer of learning in the long term. It’s impossible to give you solid advice without seeing what you’re actually doing. In landing, Pitch controls airspeed, Power controls altitude. Thats how you have to think about it. Repeat it to yourself on final. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:23:19 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TimeOnTarget: I just let the autopilot do it!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db3fsL870aILook here Mr fancy pants. I looked for that magic button in the DA-20. It doesn’t have one.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:24:05 PM EDT
[#49]
make sure the seat height is the same every time you get in op....that will help.
I also do better with power off landings in a 172, not that they are worth a shit. But I pretty much pull all the power right after I turn base and just glide it in. once the trim is set for the air speed just ease her in there. The big issue I kept having with my CFI is he always thought I was gonna land short...I think he preferred to land long. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:27:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By denverdan: Look here Mr fancy pants. I looked for that magic button in the DA-20. It doesn’t have one. I did get a soft as butter landing the other day. You know, the kind where the speed brake comes up and you did not feel the wheels touch. Every squirrel gets lucky eventually... |
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