www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004451110,00.html

George pulls teeth out

By ALASTAIR TAYLOR

A DESPERATE man pulled out three teeth with rusty PLIERS because he could not find an NHS dentist.

Divorced George Daulat, 47, numbed the pain by downing half a bottle of vodka.

He said: “People will think I am crazy to have pulled my own teeth out but I just could not stand the pain any longer.”

Dad-of-one George had failed to get an appointment at an emergency NHS dentist.

And a friend called almost 20 NHS and private dentists in vain.

George explained: “I had terrible toothache for weeks and the pain killers had stopped working.

“I was lying awake at night, driven mad by the pain. In the end I simply couldn’t take any more.

“I had a pair of pliers in a tool box. They were old and a bit rusty but I knew they would do the job.

“I bought a bottle of vodka because there is no way I could have done that sober.

“The teeth causing me the problems were on my bottom set at the back.

“I gripped the first one and pulled as hard as I could. I felt the wrench in my gums and this blinding pain, followed by a snap as the tooth cracked.

“I stopped to steel myself and then pulled again and managed to get the whole thing out.

“But the pain was still there and I went back for two more. I managed to get them out but the fourth wouldn’t come.

“I tugged and tugged but I have had to leave it half way out.”

George lives on benefits after he had to quit his engineering job due to arthritis.

His home town of Scarbrough, North Yorks, is so hard-hit with the lack of NHS dentists that queues stretched hundreds of yards earlier this year when one finally opened.

Around 3,000 people tried to join — but they were left stranded when Dutch dentist Aria Van Drie fled after it was revealed she had criminal convictions.

George says he is still searching for a dentist to finish off his DIY removal.

He added: “It is the most horrible thing I have ever done but I was driven by desperation.

“The Government needs to sort out the problems in the NHS so that no one else ever has to go through this.”

A new NHS dentist is expected to arrive in the next few months.

But John Carney, Scarborough’s emergency NHS dentist, said: “If he had rung here at 8.30am he would have had an appointment that day.

"The primary care trust are going out of their way to improve things.”

I know someone who did the same thing here.  

This is why we don't want socialized medicine, folks.

When 600 people are in line for the 300 dentist slots that the government will pay for ...

Now that's hardcore.

Quoted: Quoted: This is why we don't want socialized medicine, folks. When 600 people are in line for the 300 dentist slots that the government will pay for ... That's not bad.  If each doc only had two appts per day, they could keep up. Its when you have thousands of people lined up and 300 docs that you run into problems.

Misunderstanding.  This was a small town in Wales within the past year, the news article led me to believe that there were two or three dentists.  Don't have a link anymore.

Quoted: This is why we don't want socialized medicine, folks. When 600 people are in line for the 300 dentist slots that the government will pay for ...

As a physician I feel the necessity to chime in. Too friggin late! Mediscare is socialized medicine and its very presence has lowered the standard for healthcare to an almost unrecoverable point.


Abscence of free market = socialism.

It takes 30 days to get an appointment with an oral surgeon around here.

This country needs socialized medicine, in a bad way. Let the Doctors drive jags instead of Mercedes .

Quoted: Quoted: This is why we don't want socialized medicine, folks. When 600 people are in line for the 300 dentist slots that the government will pay for ... That's not bad.  If each doc only had two appts per day, they could keep up. Its when you have thousands of people lined up and 300 docs that you run into problems.

No , not 300 docs, only 300 APPOINTMENTS are taken.

Quoted: This country needs socialized medicine, in a bad way. Let the Doctors drive jags instead of Mercedes .

I usually agree with you (here everyone else goes )  but I gotta roll my eyes at this one Cyanide .

Quoted: Quoted: This country needs socialized medicine, in a bad way. Let the Doctors drive jags instead of Mercedes . I usually agree with you (here everyone else goes )  but I gotta roll my eyes at this one Cyanide .

It was just a jab -- Doc.

NHS Dentistry is for the 'Poor People' … Most people go private and pay here… I do, appointment same day, £102 for a filling and polish, @ US$184…




George Daulat…a 'poor people'…


Andy

Quoted: NHS Dentistry is for the 'Poor People' … Most people go private and pay here… I do, appointment same day, £102 for a filling and polish, @ US$184… img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/3300.jpg George Daulat…a 'poor people'… Andy

That's how all socialist programs end up, two-tiered. Look at Canada. If you need an operation and have a little money, you go to the U.S.

Quoted: Quoted: This is why we don't want socialized medicine, folks. When 600 people are in line for the 300 dentist slots that the government will pay for ... As a physician I feel the necessity to chime in. Too friggin late! Mediscare is socialized medicine and its very presence has lowered the standard for healthcare to an almost unrecoverable point. Abscence of free market = socialism.

Yes, and medicare lead to medicare fraud*, resulting in regulation, resulting in HMOs.

*In the old days, doctors would charge rich patients more; under medicare, medicare patients were in effect the richest, and doctors charged them more. The government considered this fraud, although it didn't consider charging poor patients less fraud in the old days.

Quoted: Quoted: NHS Dentistry is for the 'Poor People' … Most people go private and pay here… I do, appointment same day, £102 for a filling and polish, @ US$184… img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/3300.jpg George Daulat…a 'poor people'… Andy That's how all socialist programs end up, two-tiered. Look at Canada. If you need an operation and have a little money, you go to the U.S.

If you want it right away or you want quality care, you come to the US. The US doesn't have a free market in medicine, but the market here is a free market when compared to Canada, at least in some respects.

Also, the 100,000 or so Canadians who come to the US for treatment effectively "raise" US healthcare costs from the perspective of most studies.

If you want dental care in the USA, bring money. It matters not what you need if you have no money, you have no dental care in the United States.

Joe

If y'all think medical care is expensive now, just wait until it is free.

Quoted: If y'all think medical care is expensive now, just wait until it is free.

[uneducated sheeple masses] Duh but it's free - it's not costing me anything dummy! [/uneducated sheeple masses]

It seems we have two problems . . . the first and foremost being the legal requirement to treat everybody who shows up at the ER, along with medicare . . . in short, socialization of medicine.

The second is that 90% of the coverage out there is run by capitalists . . . they have to make money to look good for the investors . . . so they are willing & able to raise rates on insurance to ridiculous heights of fantasy.  Little thought is given to what people really need.

A friend of mine cannot afford coverage for the wife (kids are covered, but the wife is too expensive . . . ) so they decided to take half of what they would be paying each year and sock it away . . . they have used it as a medical savings account for about two years.  There is enought there that they have considered a vacation, even after paying for regularly needed visits.

Personally, I am married & have had zero coverage for the past 8 years.  Never could afford it & employers didn't offer it.  Cannot say what I would do if I had a real problem.

Quoted: Yes, and medicare lead to medicare fraud*, resulting in regulation, resulting in HMOs. *In the old days, doctors would charge rich patients more; under medicare, medicare patients were in effect the richest, and doctors charged them more. The government considered this fraud, although it didn't consider charging poor patients less fraud in the old days.

Maybe that point is cogent, maybe not. You're statement really makes no sense to me.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: NHS Dentistry is for the 'Poor People' … Most people go private and pay here… I do, appointment same day, £102 for a filling and polish, @ US$184… img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/3300.jpg George Daulat…a 'poor people'… Andy That's how all socialist programs end up, two-tiered. Look at Canada. If you need an operation and have a little money, you go to the U.S. If you want it right away or you want quality care, you come to the US. The US doesn't have a free market in medicine, but the market here is a free market when compared to Canada, at least in some respects. Also, the 100,000 or so Canadians who come to the US for treatment effectively "raise" US healthcare costs from the perspective of most studies.

Yeah but now we are buying their subsidized and cheap prescription drugs, so maybe we can make it even. I'm pretty pissed at Canada right now.

Quoted: The second is that 90% of the coverage out there is run by capitalists . . . they have to make money to look good for the investors . . . so they are willing & able to raise rates on insurance to ridiculous heights of fantasy.  Little thought is given to what people really need.

I couldn't disagree more. Most, if not all, problems with healthcare in the US stem from the fact that the presence of a mandated government product (Medicare) has eliminated market competition. What if insurers actually had to compete for the healthcare dollar?

People keep forgetting the old adage "You get what you pay for".  It holds true whether you're talking about a rifle, a prostitute or medical care.  

You want excellent healthcare?  Then get ready to pay for it.  People with cancer don't live long in Liberia.  I have seen firsthand what socialized medicine is like, and it ain't pretty.  I grew up in Canada and you will wait for your 'free' shitty healthcare that you pay for through your asshole with taxes.  Currently, 46% of the Ontario budget goes to pay for healthcare.  Oh, and unless you are on welfare (which it seems almost everyone up there is), you have to pay for your medications, medical devices, dental care, eyewear and a whole laundry list of other things that aren't 'covered'.  Hitlery and her SS Propaganda Machine forgot to tell you about that.  The gov't realized long ago that there was no way it could cover every aspect of healthcare.  So people keep paying more, but keep getting less in return.  When I had my wisdom teeth taken out in a hospital, nothing was covered and they charged me for the whole thing:  OR time, oral surgeon fee, anesthesiologist, hospital fee, meds, etc.  They said it was a 'dental' procedure.  

My father practiced in Hungary for a couple of years before escaping to Canada.  The Communists' idea of punishing malpractice was to lock up the doctor for a couple of years in a gulag.  The socialist dream of redistributing wealth worked so well that doctors made the same as teachers who made the same as factory workers, etc.  Then people soon realized that the doctors didn't give a shit beyond giving the absolute minimum amount of care without being accused (and jailed) for actively killing their patients.  So an interesting thing happened:  People started paying the doctors under the table.  If you wanted to make sure that the delivery went smoothly, you either slipped the doc an envelope with a few bills or a few bottles of fine brandy.  Fee for service.  Shitty fee, shitty service.

This must just be an 'Eastern European thing'.  I mean, American trained doctors would never act like this. Of course not.  Unless you've ever been to a VA hospital.  Warning:  Stay out of the parking lot between 3:30-4pm or you'll get creamed by the doctors running over each other to go home for the day.  You're not going to squeeze any more work out of them than their modest salaries will allow.  (I spent a good deal of my training in VA's or the VA Spa as we affectionately call them.).

You get what you pay for.

Quoted: People keep forgetting the old adage "You get what you pay for". {snip}100% correct diatribe {snip} You get what you pay for.

Preach it!

+1

Quoted: Quoted: It seems we have two problems . . . the first and foremost being the legal requirement to treat everybody who shows up at the ER, along with medicare . . . in short, socialization of medicine. <snip>. Darwin was right about something.   I know it hurts, but......

Medicare is the bigger problem, but the companies never seem to fail to make profits, yes?  Even with the socialized medicine dragging at them, welfare grade repayment from medicare, the can still make consistent profits (if not stellar . . . that would attract much attention).  Face it, health care is a necessary expense and we will probably keep paying for it, while they keep raising the rates _especially_ if something is done about the socialized medcine.  They will not want to give up the $$ they can charge.

Just got xrays of my foot, three angles in a digital xray machine.  Beautiful pics.  But they charged me almost $400 for the 10 minutes of work.  It was well, done, the machine has to be as expensive as Heck . . . but it seems that the time on the machine was not that expensive . . . (uneducated opine).  Oddly enough, the dentist does essentially the same thing  . . . charges nothing extra to take digital xray of teeth (have been patient for . . . 20years, though).

Quoted: Quoted: The second is that 90% of the coverage out there is run by capitalists . . . they have to make money to look good for the investors . . . so they are willing & able to raise rates on insurance to ridiculous heights of fantasy.  Little thought is given to what people really need. I couldn't disagree more. Most, if not all, problems with healthcare in the US stem from the fact that the presence of a mandated government product (Medicare) has eliminated market competition. What if insurers actually had to compete for the healthcare dollar?

Why would they _ever_ compete with themselves?  The simple knowledge that everyone _has_ to have it will keep them cranking up the profit margins.  Not the doctors, mind you, so much as the insurers.  Coverage drops easily, especially if you get real sick.  Got cancer?  Hope your employer is more understanding than your insurance provider, cause you will be unfit for work 3 weeks out of 4 during chemo and your insurer will run the moment that they hear cancer (fall behind by $.10).  Few cancers patients can maintain coverage unless they are not the primary insured.

Want major medical?  I can find you a second mortgage to pay for the _possibility_ you might need it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why would they _ever_ compete with themselves?  The simple knowledge that everyone _has_ to have it will keep them cranking up the profit margins.  Not the doctors, mind you, so much as the insurers.  Coverage drops easily, especially if you get real sick.  Got cancer?  Hope your employer is more understanding than your insurance provider, cause you will be unfit for work 3 weeks out of 4 during chemo and your insurer will run the moment that they hear cancer (fall behind by $.10).  Few cancers patients can maintain coverage unless they are not the primary insured. Want major medical?  I can find you a second mortgage to pay for the _possibility_ you might need it.

Good point about remortgaging!… Well as we started off discussing UK NHS medicine…

I am registered disabled now after a bad auto accident…

Spent nearly 4 months in hospital after the accident, plus a total of another 12 months off work through operations etc I've needed a total knee replacement operation, a total hip replacement operation, I'm due for another total knee replacement shortly. All my medicines are on a £42 (US$75) annual voucher. All the operations and aftercare are free. Had an operation to remove an abcess in my jaw this year as well. I have now been diagnosed with high blood presure and being treated. I receive a £342 (US$618) tax free disability pension on top of my wages…

Total cost of all this treatment? 11% of my wages as National Insurance contributions… @US$3960 per year… and a 12% contribution from my employer.

Usual waiting time for an operation is 1-3 months depending on how urgent, with immidiate admission in any urgent case. If I have to wait more than 9 months for an operation I can go private and the NHS picks up the bills.

These National Insurance deductions also includes basic unemployment benefit, all healthcare, social security and an Old Age pension.

How does this compare? I think I would be very bankrupt by now if I lived in the US

Andy

Quoted:The second is that 90% of the coverage out there is run by capitalists . . . they have to make money to look good for the investors . . . so they are willing & able to raise rates on insurance to ridiculous heights of fantasy.  Little thought is given to what people really need.

Do you know how regulated the rates insurers are allowed to charge are? Many states require rates to be filed along with exhibits of claims experience that justify the increase in rate.

Quoted:The newest trend is offering major discounts if you pay as you go or have no questions asked  insurance.  Of course, the no questions insurance comes with some major dollar payout caps.  IMHO, this is the way to go.  It's like stepping back in time but hey not everything from the past was all that bad.

This is the sort of thing I have through work.

I've got a $3000 deductible plan combined with a savings account that I can put pre-tax dollars from my paycheck into (and can spend money in the account only on health care).

It makes you keep track a little more of what things cost.

I went to a walk in clinic on a saturday a few months ago when I got really sick. The lady at the desk couldn't tell me how much an office visit would cost. They had to wait until the doc was available and ask him. The price was $110 bucks for a 20 minute chat an some antibiotic prescriptions.

I wonder how different that price would be if more people knew what they were being charged and said "fuck that I'll go to the doc across town who only charges $80 for an office visit".

That's the idea behind these high deductible + spending account plans. Hopefully it helps.

Quoted: This country needs socialized medicine, in a bad way. Let the Doctors drive jags instead of Mercedes .

Just like we need another nuclear reactor meltdown...

Quoted: Quoted: This is why we don't want socialized medicine, folks. When 600 people are in line for the 300 dentist slots that the government will pay for ... As a physician I feel the necessity to chime in. Too friggin late! Mediscare is socialized medicine and its very presence has lowered the standard for healthcare to an almost unrecoverable point. Abscence of free market = socialism.

How very true.  

Would you say the AMA would be to blame for the shortage of doctors? I.E, licensing instead of certifying?

I'm curious.  

Quoted: Why would they _ever_ compete with themselves?  The simple knowledge that everyone _has_ to have it will keep them cranking up the profit margins.  Not the doctors, mind you, so much as the insurers.  Coverage drops easily, especially if you get real sick.  Got cancer?  Hope your employer is more understanding than your insurance provider, cause you will be unfit for work 3 weeks out of 4 during chemo and your insurer will run the moment that they hear cancer (fall behind by $.10).  Few cancers patients can maintain coverage unless they are not the primary insured. Want major medical?  I can find you a second mortgage to pay for the _possibility_ you might need it.

The problem is the government mandate.  First you must participate in medicare, and that applies to both patients and (most) doctors. Secondly, they dictate reimbursement for all services (and all other insurers base their reimbursement on those numbers).

When I speak of competition I mean it in a pure sense. Believe it or not, once upon a time doctors could set their own fee schedule and people actually paid for services rendered.
So if doctor A is as good as doctor B and charges less, go to him. As things are now, it doesn't matter if doctor A is a shitbag and doctor B is the incarnation of Marcus Welby....they get paid the same. From my perspective, I sometimes marvel that there aren't even more shitbags out there already. What's the performance incentive? Patient loyalty? LOL, doesn't exist anymore.

At some point healthcare will evolve as follows. The decent doctors will drop all insurance contracts including Mediscare and operate out of a minimal office setting. To maintain an active medical charts patients will pay a yearly access fee and will be charged as they go. As you leave the office you will receive an insurance form that you will have to file yourself to recoup whatever pitance your insurance might reimburse. Its already happening. They call it boutique medicine.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why would they _ever_ compete with themselves?  The simple knowledge that everyone _has_ to have it will keep them cranking up the profit margins.  Not the doctors, mind you, so much as the insurers.  Coverage drops easily, especially if you get real sick.  Got cancer?  Hope your employer is more understanding than your insurance provider, cause you will be unfit for work 3 weeks out of 4 during chemo and your insurer will run the moment that they hear cancer (fall behind by $.10).  Few cancers patients can maintain coverage unless they are not the primary insured. Want major medical?  I can find you a second mortgage to pay for the _possibility_ you might need it. Good point about remortgaging!… Well as we started off discussing UK NHS medicine… I am registered disabled now after a bad auto accident… Spent nearly 4 months in hospital after the accident, plus a total of another 12 months off work through operations etc I've needed a total knee replacement operation, a total hip replacement operation, I'm due for another total knee replacement shortly. All my medicines are on a £42 (US$75) annual voucher. All the operations and aftercare are free. Had an operation to remove an abcess in my jaw this year as well. I have now been diagnosed with high blood presure and being treated. I receive a £342 (US$618) tax free disability pension on top of my wages… Total cost of all this treatment? 11% of my wages as National Insurance contributions… @US$3960 per year… and a 12% contribution from my employer. Usual waiting time for an operation is 1-3 months depending on how urgent, with immidiate admission in any urgent case. If I have to wait more than 9 months for an operation I can go private and the NHS picks up the bills. These National Insurance deductions also includes basic unemployment benefit, all healthcare, social security and an Old Age pension. How does this compare? I think I would be very bankrupt by now if I lived in the US Andy

Your situation may appear to be good, but it isn't so for most of your countrymen.  I personally know someone from GBR who lost their mother, because the government refused to treat her.  They said she was too old.  

If capitalism were allowed to work its magic, we would not have the problems with healthcare that we do now.  Everyone would be able to get medical care.  

Well, I have no medical coverage, because it would cost me $400 out of pocket every month to cover JUST ME, and I don't make much over $2200 a month, so I would lose about 1/5 of my pay just to my insurance. That's too much. My wife and daughter are covered under her health plan at work, and I have the VA for any service related issues, and I can use them for my primary healthcare, if I pay out of pocket. I haven't been to a doc about a nonservice related issue, nor will I unless it is a SERIOUS issue.

The medical problem is an indicator of things to come.  Social medicine will be a tool for buying votes, nothing more.  We have people that vote for handouts, and have no stake in the economy.  We already have a medical doctor shortage comming and it won't be pretty.  I know alot of people that choose not to go to medical school because it is a bad investment.  Personally, I am Going for a PharmD, and if social medicine comes there will a be a new and lucrative black market for medical care.  the only country that is close to succeding in social medicine is norway.  They have a population of about the size of chicago, and the government owns about 40% of the north sea oil rights.  If your in their hosipitals your sitting/laying in the hall with a bell to ring for a nurse.  Good luck with that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why would they _ever_ compete with themselves?  The simple knowledge that everyone _has_ to have it will keep them cranking up the profit margins.  Not the doctors, mind you, so much as the insurers.  Coverage drops easily, especially if you get real sick.  Got cancer?  Hope your employer is more understanding than your insurance provider, cause you will be unfit for work 3 weeks out of 4 during chemo and your insurer will run the moment that they hear cancer (fall behind by $.10).  Few cancers patients can maintain coverage unless they are not the primary insured. Want major medical?  I can find you a second mortgage to pay for the _possibility_ you might need it. Good point about remortgaging!… Well as we started off discussing UK NHS medicine… I am registered disabled now after a bad auto accident… Spent nearly 4 months in hospital after the accident, plus a total of another 12 months off work through operations etc I've needed a total knee replacement operation, a total hip replacement operation, I'm due for another total knee replacement shortly. All my medicines are on a £42 (US$75) annual voucher. All the operations and aftercare are free. Had an operation to remove an abcess in my jaw this year as well. I have now been diagnosed with high blood presure and being treated. I receive a £342 (US$618) tax free disability pension on top of my wages… Total cost of all this treatment? 11% of my wages as National Insurance contributions… @US$3960 per year… and a 12% contribution from my employer. Usual waiting time for an operation is 1-3 months depending on how urgent, with immidiate admission in any urgent case. If I have to wait more than 9 months for an operation I can go private and the NHS picks up the bills. These National Insurance deductions also includes basic unemployment benefit, all healthcare, social security and an Old Age pension. How does this compare? I think I would be very bankrupt by now if I lived in the US Andy Your situation may appear to be good, but it isn't so for most of your countrymen.  I personally know someone from GBR who lost their mother, because the government refused to treat her.  They said she was too old.   If capitalism were allowed to work its magic, we would not have the problems with healthcare that we do now.  Everyone would be able to get medical care.

This is true… the situation with old people is simply 'healthcare rationing'… we have a very large OAP population, when you reach @70 and start costing megabucks you are effectively out of it… the NHS is not a bottomless money pit… but you have zero chance here of getting private insurance if your old, even if you already have a policy they will usually refuse to renew when you start costing big money…

Andy

FWIW the AMA doesn't license physicians in the US and consequently they have nothing to do with the "shortage" of physicians and surgeons ... I would say the shortage is mostly a case of brain drain -- the smart kids who want to make a good living go to law school these days

Mediscare is socialized medicine Abscence of free market = socialism.

Ditto!

Quoted: The problem is the government mandate.  First you must participate in medicare, and that applies to both patients and (most) doctors. Secondly, they dictate reimbursement for all services (and all other insurers base their reimbursement on those numbers). When I speak of competition I mean it in a pure sense. Believe it or not, once upon a time doctors could set their own fee schedule and people actually paid for services rendered. So if doctor A is as good as doctor B and charges less, go to him. As things are now, it doesn't matter if doctor A is a shitbag and doctor B is the incarnation of Marcus Welby....they get paid the same. From my perspective, I sometimes marvel that there aren't even more shitbags out there already. What's the performance incentive? Patient loyalty? LOL, doesn't exist anymore. At some point healthcare will evolve as follows. The decent doctors will drop all insurance contracts including Mediscare and operate out of a minimal office setting. To maintain an active medical charts patients will pay a yearly access fee and will be charged as they go. As you leave the office you will receive an insurance form that you will have to file yourself to recoup whatever pitance your insurance might reimburse. Its already happening. They call it boutique medicine.

VERY seriously considering just that. I will gladly give up money to have more control over my own practice and that is pretty much the model I am looking at, except that I may try to do it on a housecall basis. Perhaps by early next year. Either that, or I am likely to get out of medicine before too long.