XM8 is dead! EDIT: as promised, here is the link! XM8 D-E-A-D!

Site Notices

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - XM8 is dead! EDIT: as promised, here is the link! XM8 D-E-A-D! (Page 1 of 5)

Posted: 11/2/2005 6:59:10 PM EDT

I saw this news on a professional defence online journal today...unfortunatly, I don't have the website bookmarked on my home computer (I go to so many of these I can't rember which one it was). I searched the net but found nothing. Anyway, the gist of the news was that "in light of recent operational experiences" (i.e. urban warfare in Iraq), the XM8 is no longer seen by the US Army as what is needed...

Due to the restricted spaces involved in mounted operations and room clearing, the current thinking is that a bullpup configuration is now called for, and the Tavor already has the inside track, as the IDF has just came to the same conclusions due to its recent Gaza operations. Also, the IDF has just adopted the Tavor II (now offered in a "family" of sub-compact, regular, and sharpshooter versions) over the M-4. The US Army has been opposed to bullpups in the past, but it appears they have changed their minds...

Anyone else see this article? If not I will dig it up at work tomorrow and report back.

ETA:

Link to story: scroll down to the 10th article

die xm8

On July 22, 2005, DID reported that the U.S. Army had temporarily suspended the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the acquisition of a new family of small weapons - Objective Individual Combat Weapon Increment 1 (OICW-1). Increment 1 would have opened the door for the new H&K XM-8 weapon family, which was touted as the successor to the M16A4 assault rifle, M249 SAW light machine gun, and even the M9 pistol via a cut-down version. See DID's full coverage and links.

Now Murdoc Online reports that OICW increment 1 has been formally canceled while the Pentagon reconsiders its plans in light of lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA may also wish to take into account Israeli lessons learned under related conditions during military operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which resulted in the new TAR-21 Tavor assault weapon family.

Tavor:

tavor link

The rifle on the far right in the article pic is the Tavor 2. The others are the old model.

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:00:00 PM EDT

[#1]

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:02:09 PM EDT

[#2]

oh pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease make them available to civilians!

GAH! I used post 1911 for that!

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:02:55 PM EDT

[#3]

.

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:05:11 PM EDT

[#4]

How does the Tavor compare to Steyr Aug?

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:07:45 PM EDT

[#5]

Is bullpup config. really that much smaller/shorter than an M-4?

Please educate me on how it would be better.

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:09:45 PM EDT

[#6]

Here is the guns.ru page on the "tavor"

guns.ru

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:11:08 PM EDT

[#7]

I wont support a rifle that I can not own as a civilian. Even if my current position allows me to use one at work.

Pooey on the XM8

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:12:54 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Is bullpup config. really that much smaller/shorter than an M-4?

Please educate me on how it would be better.

An AUG with a 20" barrel is 2 " shorter than an M4 with a 14.5" barrel. A 16" barrel AUG is 6" shorter than an M4

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:16:28 PM EDT

[#9]

So basically the only small arm our forces will use that was designed and made here originally is the shotgun?

G

PS - Mossy 590 and Rem 870

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:17:34 PM EDT

[#10]

I hate bullpups.

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:24:20 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I hate bullpups.

+1. They're ugly as hell and we'd be just like the French.

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:24:28 PM EDT

[#12]

So, while we're on the subject of bullpup rifles, how about this:

ST Kinetics SAR-21

First introduced a year after I got out. Only problem is it's right-hand only, no switchable ejection like the AUG.

SAW Ultimax 100

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:26:01 PM EDT

[#13]

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:29:31 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I hate bullpups.

+1. They're ugly as hell and we'd be just like the French.

and the British, and the Irish, and the Chinese, and the Australians, and the Indonesians, and the Saudis, and Singapore, and the South Africans, etc.

and btw, i dont believe there has ever been anything negative said about the French FAMAS (unlike the earlier British SA80s).

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:31:00 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/051101-F-0000S-012.jpg

ok, I'll bite wtf is that?

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:31:53 PM EDT

[#16]

I swear that thing looks like a photoshop.

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:32:19 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Is bullpup config. really that much smaller/shorter than an M-4?

Please educate me on how it would be better.

An AUG with a 20" barrel is 2 " shorter than an M4 with a 14.5" barrel. A 16" barrel AUG is 6" shorter than an M4

I got a 16" barrel for my AUG and I couldn't STAND to shoot it!

The muzzle blast was quite severe, what with a 16" 5.56 discharge only inches away from my face...

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:33:36 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:

www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/051101-F-0000S-012.jpg

ok, I'll bite wtf is that?

movie prop

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:36:04 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:

www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/051101-F-0000S-012.jpg

ok, I'll bite wtf is that?

Thats a new less than lethal laser weapon that temp. blinds people

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:37:12 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is bullpup config. really that much smaller/shorter than an M-4?

Please educate me on how it would be better.

An AUG with a 20" barrel is 2 " shorter than an M4 with a 14.5" barrel. A 16" barrel AUG is 6" shorter than an M4

I got a 16" barrel for my AUG and I couldn't STAND to shoot it!

The muzzle blast was quite severe, what with a 16" 5.56 discharge only inches away from my face...

Really? I haven't noticed that with either my 16" or 20" AUGs. What I have noticed is that the 16" is more accurate though

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:37:57 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is bullpup config. really that much smaller/shorter than an M-4?

Please educate me on how it would be better.

An AUG with a 20" barrel is 2 " shorter than an M4 with a 14.5" barrel. A 16" barrel AUG is 6" shorter than an M4

I got a 16" barrel for my AUG and I couldn't STAND to shoot it!

The muzzle blast was quite severe, what with a 16" 5.56 discharge only inches away from my face...

Then just solve the problem by getting a 20" barrel.

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:40:08 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/051101-F-0000S-012.jpg

ok, I'll bite wtf is that?

movie prop

I was looking for more F22 pics, and saw it on the homepage. But for laughs, it could be in the "40-watt range". Didn't mean to hijack this thread though.

www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123012699

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:47:13 PM EDT

[#23]

Is their a SCAR/XM8/416-like piston system for the Tavor or is it the same as an AR repackage. Basically is it an advance or a repackaging?

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:48:43 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:

ok, I'll bite wtf is that?

Phased Shamu Rifle - 40 Watt Range

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:50:49 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Is their a SCAR/XM8/416-like piston system for the Tavor or is it the same as an AR repackage. Basically is it an advance or a repackaging?

It has a gas piston

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:52:02 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
I was looking for more F22 pics, and saw it on the homepage. But for laughs, it could be in the "40-watt range". Didn't mean to hijack this thread though.

www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123012699

KIRTLAND AIR FORCE BASE, N.M. (AFPN) -- Capt. Drew Goettler demonstrates the Personnel Halting and Stimulation Response, or PHaSR, a non-lethal illumination technology developed by the laboratory's ScorpWorks team. The technology is the first man-portable, non-lethal deterrent weapon intended for protecting troops and controlling hostile crowds. The laser light used in the weapon temporarily impairs aggressors by illuminating or "dazzling" individuals, removing their ability to see the laser source. (U.S. Air Force photo)

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:52:58 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I hate bullpups.

+1. They're ugly as hell and we'd be just like the French.

Those are two amazingly stupid reasons to not adopt a particular firearm.

Posted: 11/2/2005 7:59:02 PM EDT

[#28]

The ENTIRE US military should just adopt the FNC PARA in 6.8cal for an individual weapon, the FN Minimi in 6.8cal for their SAW, the FN "Gimpy" in 7.62 NATO for a GPMG, the Sig 226 in 9mm for a sidearm...

AND CALL IT GOOD!

Stop messing around and spending millions of tax dollars on "testing" things that are already known.

That bullpup is FUGLY as Hell and probably not as effective as many of the rifles on the market today.

Posted: 11/2/2005 8:02:44 PM EDT

[#29]

Plus, the TAVOR has the added benefit of being featured in the recent video game blockbuster F.E.A.R.

EDIT: Admittedly it was stupidly implemented in the game as a burst fire sniper rifle.

It was exceptionally well modelled though.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:07:23 AM EDT

[#30]

btt

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:14:22 AM EDT

[#31]

Hmmmmmmmm FN F2000...

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:16:53 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
oh pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease make them available to civilians!

GAH! I used post 1911 for that!

No shit I've been wanting a Tavor for a long time. But the semi-auto only version is pretty damn fugly. If I could get a semi-auto version that looked like the FA version I;d be all over it like stink on shit.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:19:02 AM EDT

[#33]

The M4 will still be the standard rifle of the US military in 20 years time… it will probaly be modified to a gas piston uppper, but it will still be an M4.

ANdy

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:27:05 AM EDT

[#34]

My best friend's brother-in-law worked on the Tavor project when he was in the IDF. I have discussed the rifle with him many times and he has nothing but positive things to say about it.

(I should note that he is a no bull shit kind of guy and tells it like it is. He is not one to exaggerate or inflate his own accomplishments. Additionally, he isn't like the typical American supporter of Israel who thinks Israel can do no wrong, but freely admits Israel isn't always right. He served as a sniper and company commander before doing R&D.)

Anyway, I think adopting Israeli weapons is a great idea. These are a people who have been at war for the entire existence of their country and have fought and won wars against all odds. They know better than anyone what works and what is needed. The very existence of the US hasn't been threatened in most of our lifetimes.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:27:09 AM EDT

[#35]

I kinda like the TAR 21. Seems like bullpups would have a major advantage in MOUT. It could still have a 16-20 in. barrell and be shorter than an M4.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:35:16 AM EDT

[#36]

belt fed version? lol, a bullpup SAW would be kinda badass, and a hell of alot for clearing rooms that that current bitch.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:35:40 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I hate bullpups.

+1. They're ugly as hell and we'd be just like the French.

Two of the lamest statements i've ever read on this board.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:37:53 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I kinda like the TAR 21. Seems like bullpups would have a major advantage in MOUT. It could still have a 16-20 in. barrell and be shorter than an M4.

The major disadvantage of a bullpup in MOUT is the inability to switch shoulders. I would give up a couple inches in OAL for the ability to fire from either shoulder.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:40:27 AM EDT

[#39]

FN F2000 fixes the case ejection into southpaw face problem.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:40:49 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I kinda like the TAR 21. Seems like bullpups would have a major advantage in MOUT. It could still have a 16-20 in. barrell and be shorter than an M4.

The major disadvantage of a bullpup in MOUT is the inability to switch shoulders. I would give up a couple inches in OAL for the ability to fire from either shoulder.

Good Point, Didnt think about that(even though I know better)

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:42:05 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
I wont support a rifle that I can not own as a civilian. Even if my current position allows me to use one at work.

I suspect that in the next generation or two, military weapons technology will move into areas where the citizenry will not be allowed to own equivalent weapons.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:42:15 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
FN F2000 fixes the case ejection into southpaw face problem.

And adds a cases-jamming-in-the-ejection-chute problem. No thanks.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:45:26 AM EDT

[#43]

P90 is still a bullpup right? It ejects straight down. Maybe someone should develop a rifle caliber bullpup that ejects in a similar fashion.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:47:14 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I wont support a rifle that I can not own as a civilian. Even if my current position allows me to use one at work.

I suspect that in the next generation or two, military weapons technology will move into areas where the citizenry will not be allowed to own equivalent weapons.

Which is PRECISELY what the Second Amendment was intended to prevent.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:49:03 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
FN F2000 fixes the case ejection into southpaw face problem.

And adds a cases-jamming-in-the-ejection-chute problem. No thanks.

How much actual evidence is there of this supposed case jamming problem, and how much is hear-say and rumor.

I'm NOT trying to start a fight, I'm just curious if anyone is saying this based on actual tests, experience, etc. I don't know if the F2000 has ever been entered into any trials or anything, and if there even is hard data.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:49:37 AM EDT

[#46]

Our paracommando regiment in Italian Army had (among the others...) as assault rifles the Steyr AUG.

All the rifles have been dismissed and given to other less "demandig" unit.

Now they are CRAZY for M4 (they got Bushy and I think also Colts...).

Why?

Simple and plain: compatibility with accessories. Maintenance. Versatility.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:51:57 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Our paracommando regiment in Italian Army had (among the others...) as assault rifles the Steyr AUG.

All the rifles have been dismissed and given to other less "demandig" unit.

Now they are CRAZY for M4 (they got Bushy and I think also Colts...).

Why?

Simple and plain: compatibility with accessories. Maintenance. Versatility.

The UK followed the same route with their elite units.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:52:22 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
P90 is still a bullpup right? It ejects straight down. Maybe someone should develop a rifle caliber bullpup that ejects in a similar fashion.

The FN F2000 has its ejection port by the muzzle, so it's ambi-friendly, I imagine.

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:53:01 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
FN F2000 fixes the case ejection into southpaw face problem.

And adds a cases-jamming-in-the-ejection-chute problem. No thanks.

How much actual evidence is there of this supposed case jamming problem, and how much is hear-say and rumor.

I'm NOT trying to start a fight, I'm just curious if anyone is saying this based on actual tests, experience, etc. I don't know if the F2000 has ever been entered into any trials or anything, and if there even is hard data.

I'm also curious as to how easy it is to clear the ejection chute... What if it gets filled with dirt/mud or other debris? Battlefields have been known to have such conditions......

Posted: 11/3/2005 6:55:16 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
FN F2000 fixes the case ejection into southpaw face problem.

And adds a cases-jamming-in-the-ejection-chute problem. No thanks.

How much actual evidence is there of this supposed case jamming problem, and how much is hear-say and rumor.

I'm NOT trying to start a fight, I'm just curious if anyone is saying this based on actual tests, experience, etc. I don't know if the F2000 has ever been entered into any trials or anything, and if there even is hard data.

UK trailed it and rejected it for that reason… if you dive for the deck you can get shit pushed into the ejection port… not good.

The UK's 'Tasters Choice' in the trials was the HK G36

ANdy

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - XM8 is dead! EDIT: as promised, here is the link! XM8 D-E-A-D! (Page 1 of 5)

General » General Discussion

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us