Quoted: Quoted: -snip- Vernon Howell got exactly what he deserved and exactly what he asked for. The real tragedy is that he took those innocent children with him. The guy thought he was CHRIST, for Pete's sake--and yes, he DID claim it many times when talking to the negotiators. pato That's exactly the problem I have with guys like you. Who made you judge, jury, and executioner over Vernon Howell? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? In this country we charge people with a crime, the accused goes before a judge, gets a trial by a jury of his peers, and then is judged on the evidence presented to the jury. If found guilty, an appeals court then reviews the proceedings to see if they were legal, fair, and just. If they were, the accused serves his/her sentence...if they weren't, another trial is granted the accused. So who made you/ATF/FBI/Delta judge, jury and executioner over Vernon Howell? So what if he said he's Jesus Christ? I see crazy people every day on the streets of Chicago...some of them think they're Christ, too. Should they be put to death? Who cares what he claimed...apparently in your eyes that gives you/ATF/FBI/Delta the right to take their lives. Boy, I sure sleep better at night knowing ATF/FBI/Delta killed that crazy man...who knows, he might have killed all those women and children.

Amen!

Some folks get a little too big for their britches when they put on a badge and begin to draw a public paycheck.

But these kinds of arguments are really beneficial.

It will make raising the black flag and slitting a few throats so much more patable some day!



Eric The(Revolutionary)Hun

Just to clarify, David Koresh never claimed to be Jesus Christ.
Those who keep saying it are either purposefully lying, or are misinformed.

Quoted: Quoted: -snip- Vernon Howell got exactly what he deserved and exactly what he asked for. The real tragedy is that he took those innocent children with him. The guy thought he was CHRIST, for Pete's sake--and yes, he DID claim it many times when talking to the negotiators. pato That's exactly the problem I have with guys like you. Who made you judge, jury, and executioner over Vernon Howell? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? In this country we charge people with a crime, the accused goes before a judge, gets a trial by a jury of his peers, and then is judged on the evidence presented to the jury. If found guilty, an appeals court then reviews the proceedings to see if they were legal, fair, and just. If they were, the accused serves his/her sentence...if they weren't, another trial is granted the accused. So who made you/ATF/FBI/Delta judge, jury and executioner over Vernon Howell? So what if he said he's Jesus Christ? I see crazy people every day on the streets of Chicago...some of them think they're Christ, too. Should they be put to death? Who cares what he claimed...apparently in your eyes that gives you/ATF/FBI/Delta the right to take their lives. Boy, I sure sleep better at night knowing ATF/FBI/Delta killed that crazy man...who knows, he might have killed all those women and children.

Howell and his henchmen killed those people not the .gov.

Quoted: Just to clarify, David Koresh never claimed to be Jesus Christ. Those who keep saying it are either purposefully lying, or are misinformed.

Dude, he claimed to be second coming of Jesus Christ. The new sinful Messiah.

Quoted: Just to clarify, David Koresh never claimed to be Jesus Christ. Those who keep saying it are either purposefully lying, or are misinformed.

Well, I didn't want to come back to this meaningless thread, but since so many have no clue as to what occurred....

How about this exchange from the tapes with negotiators? This is from the Justice Report.
"Koresh and Schneider were both highly agitated and upset for most of March 6. The FBI became increasingly concerned as the day wore on that an overall impasse had been reached. In an attempt to break this impasse, the negotiators called Koresh at 8:25 p.m. Koresh immediately began preaching and refused to discuss any matters of substance. His preaching lasted until 10:43 p.m. It was during these preachings that Koresh claimed for the first time that he was "Christ." At 9:37 p.m. the following exchange took place between Koresh and the FBI negotiator:
FBI: Who did you tell me you were?

KORESH: If God sits on the throne, if he gave the book to the Lamb --

FBI: Yes.

KORESH: You know who I am. And you know who I claim that I am.

FBI: And you claim that you're the Lord.

KORESH: I am Christ.

FBI: Well, you didn't say that. You said you claimed to be the Lord.

KORESH: Christ is the same as the Lord. King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Prince of the Kings of the earth. Yep. What can I say? Shall I lie? No, I will not lie. And, as I said before, my father sits on a throne and he said to wait. And you're being judged. . . "

Still want to claim that Howell never said he was Christ?

pato

Quoted: Quoted: Just to clarify, David Koresh never claimed to be Jesus Christ. Those who keep saying it are either purposefully lying, or are misinformed. Well, I didn't want to come back to this meaningless thread, but since so many have no clue as to what occurred.... How about this exchange from the tapes with negotiators? This is from the Justice Report. "Koresh and Schneider were both highly agitated and upset for most of March 6. The FBI became increasingly concerned as the day wore on that an overall impasse had been reached. In an attempt to break this impasse, the negotiators called Koresh at 8:25 p.m. Koresh immediately began preaching and refused to discuss any matters of substance. His preaching lasted until 10:43 p.m. It was during these preachings that Koresh claimed for the first time that he was "Christ." At 9:37 p.m. the following exchange took place between Koresh and the FBI negotiator: FBI: Who did you tell me you were? KORESH: If God sits on the throne, if he gave the book to the Lamb -- FBI: Yes. KORESH: You know who I am. And you know who I claim that I am. FBI: And you claim that you're the Lord. KORESH: I am Christ. FBI: Well, you didn't say that. You said you claimed to be the Lord. KORESH: Christ is the same as the Lord. King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Prince of the Kings of the earth. Yep. What can I say? Shall I lie? No, I will not lie. And, as I said before, my father sits on a throne and he said to wait. And you're being judged. . . " Still want to claim that Howell never said he was Christ? pato

It's kinda funny that they have tapes and what not, that would clear the government from any wrong doing, but physical evidence that could prove the government wrong is missing....

And you still haven't addressed the lies that the government employed to get military vehicles and helos....

THe government caused the fire. They breeched the walls in such a manner as to allow airflow to stoke the fire, they pumped in gasses that were known to be flammable in hight concentration, and used pyrotechnic devices to start the fire. It's pretty obvious that the government got embarassed by the Davidians, and were going to make sure it didn't happen again.....

YOu can lick the boots of the government all you want. After all, they are your boss.....

Finally watched WACO: A New Revelation.  Fairly good follow up to the other movie, but the part where they claim the helicopter is firing a machine gun into the BD who was walking around the back was total BS.  It's regular film footage from what is probably the news media, and you can clearly tell it's sun reflecting off the helicopter windows.  Why they think that's gun fire is beyond me.  I don't doubt they fired from the chopper or perhaps a sniper post.  After all, the guy was killed back there, but still.  The FLIR video is still gun fire though.  How anyone could think that was sun reflection is stupid.

The government didn't cause the fire. It was investigated and proven they didn't. Those "high concentration" gasses--well, it seems they weren't in high enough concentration to cause the Davidians any discomfort--why would you think they were in high enough concentration to combust?
That's just silly.

The FLIR video isn't gunfire. It has been shown that it wasn't for a number of reasons:
First--the flashes are too long to be gunfire. Not just a little bit too long---waaay too long.
Second: There isn't anyone there firing the alleged weapons.
Third: It was shown that the there wasn't any corroborating evidence--like bodies with gunshots as McNulty claimed. He tried to reference the Justice report--but he was just lying to make a buck and hoping that nobody would actually do the research and call him on the lie. Apparently you guys are just those kinds of folks that believe whatever you're told by a film maker. That's fine, if that's your cup of tea--but why aren't you guys looking for King Kong or Aliens or those Men in Black?

See--it's all about being able to PROVE what you claim--or better yet--what some film maker claims that isn't backed up by facts--but nonetheless he has sold copies to plenty of gullible types that just WANT to believe the gubmint is evil.

Fine--but it's simply not right--at least in this case it isn't.

Now, I REALLY need to just let this go. I showed Mr. .308 the error of his thinking--you guys go do the research yourself. When any of you can come here and tell me you have evidence that hasn't been vetted--I will gladly provide you with the number of the US Attorney in the Waco area.
Of course, I don't expect any of you to actually DO anything except bitch and moan--it's easier on you that way. At least I was there, saw it first hand, and walked the walk--the rest of you are just yelling from the cheap seats.

Take care,

pato

And were not going to believe anything out of the mouth of an agency/government (or one of their employees) that has a LONG record of Constitutional Infringements.

Quoted: And were not going to believe anything out of the mouth of an agency/government (or one of their employees) that has a LONG record of Constitutional Infringements.

Afuckingmen.

It all comes down to a few hundred bucks worth of taxes.

Pretty sad anyone would defend this government debacle over a few hundred bucks. The ATF is out of control and has been for years. Government hearings have said so, it's not rocket surgery.

1+1 =2. Occam's razor.

Quoted: ...you guys go do the research yourself. When any of you can come here and tell me you have evidence that hasn't been vetted. Of course, I don't expect any of you to actually DO anything except bitch and moan--it's easier on you that way.

LOL. I know one guy who's planning on doing some research and experimentation and you mocked him for it. Short-term memory's a bitch, ain't it?

At least I was there, saw it first hand, and walked the walk--the rest of you are just yelling from the cheap seats.

Michael Douglas was there the night John Lennon was shot, too, and he tells me guns are icky.

My points...

a lot of stuff in here including the flir ( infared ) clear video of gunfire from troops that bailed out of a tank that was entering the building

after they rolled a couple of times they fire automatic machine gun weapons into the center of the burning building complex
aimed directly at an entrance / exit point .

also the flash from a helicopter firing down into the same location

4 shell casings found at a gov sniper position

flash bang grenades found at all 3 fire origins

pyrotechnic cs gas canister photographed and locked away - later is missing from the evidence chamber ...

video of troops firing grenade launchers of cs gas into windows

someone says that they will never understand what vince foster meant by saying ' the fbi lied to me '

expert examination of the hole on top of the concrete safety vault and the damage inside the vault to the material and people show that a shaped explosive charge was on the roof and ignited a propane tank outside the vault and decimated everything in the room of the vault

the freezer that held the remains of those people was not power by electricity and the evidence decayed -

the cleanup crew was instructed to wash everything with bleach - somehow they claimed the whole area was a biohazard ?

Quoted: Just to clarify, David Koresh never claimed to be Jesus Christ. Those who keep saying it are either purposefully lying, or are misinformed.

Sorry but you are misinformed or purposefully lying to enhance David Koresh image.....

Regardless of what is posted in this thread, it seems no one is going to change their position on this matter although the use of debate is always a good thing.

My position......

I feel sorry for the innocent children, the brain washed followers, and the dead ATF agents. I am not sorry for DK

David Koresh + Dead = Good Thing

Semper Fi,
M60-E4

^

A ways back in this thread ETH posted some pics of .gov agents posing in victory over the charred corpse of a Davidian . Those links are now dead and I would like to find a copy of this pictures to show to some one .
Dis any one save them?

Quoted: A ways back in this thread ETH posted some pics of .gov agents posing in victory over the charred corpse of a Davidian . Those links are now dead and I would like to find a copy of this pictures to show to some one . Dis any one save them?

Here you are.
Sorry that I don't have the bigger ones though.

TY

Quoted: Quoted: A ways back in this thread ETH posted some pics of .gov agents posing in victory over the charred corpse of a Davidian . Those links are now dead and I would like to find a copy of this pictures to show to some one . Dis any one save them? Here you are. Sorry that I don't have the bigger ones though. i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/ATNT0314/buffguy_b.jpg i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/ATNT0314/harleyguy_b.jpg i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/ATNT0314/bduguy_b.jpg i30.photobucket.com/albums/c323/ATNT0314/corps_b.jpg

Anti archive bump, cause I'm intending to finish reading the thread one of these days.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: -snip- Vernon Howell got exactly what he deserved and exactly what he asked for. The real tragedy is that he took those innocent children with him. The guy thought he was CHRIST, for Pete's sake--and yes, he DID claim it many times when talking to the negotiators. pato That's exactly the problem I have with guys like you. Who made you judge, jury, and executioner over Vernon Howell? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? In this country we charge people with a crime, the accused goes before a judge, gets a trial by a jury of his peers, and then is judged on the evidence presented to the jury. If found guilty, an appeals court then reviews the proceedings to see if they were legal, fair, and just. If they were, the accused serves his/her sentence...if they weren't, another trial is granted the accused. So who made you/ATF/FBI/Delta judge, jury and executioner over Vernon Howell? So what if he said he's Jesus Christ? I see crazy people every day on the streets of Chicago...some of them think they're Christ, too. Should they be put to death? Who cares what he claimed...apparently in your eyes that gives you/ATF/FBI/Delta the right to take their lives. Boy, I sure sleep better at night knowing ATF/FBI/Delta killed that crazy man...who knows, he might have killed all those women and children.   Amen! Some folks get a little too big for their britches when they put on a badge and begin to draw a public paycheck. But these kinds of arguments are really beneficial. It will make raising the black flag and slitting a few throats so much more patable some day! Eric The(Revolutionary)Hun

+1 agreed

Quoted: Anti archive bump, cause I'm intending to finish reading the thread one of these days.

__
.9

Quoted: Quoted: Anti archive bump, cause I'm intending to finish reading the thread one of these days. __ .9

Well, FINISH IT