Boston police warn of vest-piercing gun

High-powered weapon on streets

By Suzanne Smalley, Globe Staff  |  February 18, 2006

The Boston Police Department is sounding the alarm that a new type of high-powered handgun is on the streets that fires rounds police say can pierce many kinds of bulletproof vests worn by officers.

The department issued a safety alert to officers after two men were shot with the gun in Dorchester and Mattapan last week. The alert, obtained by the Globe, warned that the FN Five-Seven handgun fires the bullets at such a velocity that they ''will punch through your vest, PLATE included."

Yesterday, officers of all ranks expressed concern that the weapon has surfaced in Boston.

''These aren't recreational weapons," Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people."

Added one rank-and-file officer: ''The ability to go through a vest . . . it's just way too dangerous. It's real scary."

''It's dangerous as it is," said the officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he did not have department permission to speak to the media. ''It just gets compounded with something like that. Your fear level is increased a whole lot more, because the vest that you're wearing is obsolete."

The gun, manufactured by FN Herstal, was first sold in the United States in early 2004. It began appearing in US cities in late 2004, said Gene Voegtlin, the legislative counsel for the International Association of Chiefs of Police. Around the same time, the federal Department of Homeland Security sent out a warning about the gun and ammunition.

The gun is about the same size as the .40-caliber Glock handgun that Boston police use. It is sold to the public, and a slightly different version is sold to the military and law enforcement agencies. The major difference is in the ammunition.

The bullets sold to the military and law enforcement have a steel-hardened tip, making them able to penetrate thicker body armor. Company officials said that the sale of this type of ammunition is tightly regulated.

The bullets available to the public do not have an armor-piercing tip and are designed to fragment upon impact, making them less powerful. Company officials said that while the commercially available ammunition can in rare cases penetrate some body armor used by law enforcement, these bullets cannot pierce other models of bulletproof vests.

Rick DeMilt -- director of sales and marketing for FNH-USA, the US subsidiary of FN Herstal -- said the gun found by Boston police is sold for sporting purposes, such as hunting and competitive sports shooting. It is unclear which kind of ammunition was found by Boston police.

''All guns are dangerous; this one is of particular concern because of the high-powered ammunition," O'Toole said. Officers, she said, should ''be on the lookout" for the weapon.

Officers were not involved in the shootings last week. An internal police intelligence report obtained by the Globe said it was not clear whether the same gun was used in both episodes. The document said that the victim in one shooting was hit multiple times and taken to the hospital in critical condition. Neither shooting has become a homicide, police said yesterday.

The gun has caught the attention of officials in several other cities. In Washington, D.C., last year, police officials joined the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence to decry the availability of the weapon. ''We're certainly deeply concerned about a weapon on the street that could be so potentially lethal," District of Columbia Police spokesman Officer Kenny Bryson said yesterday.

US Representative Christopher Shays of Connecticut sent a letter to US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives officials last year inquiring about the gun, which he said he was ''very concerned" to learn had been seized by police in Trumbull, Conn.

DeMilt said Massachusetts is the only state in the country where his company does not legally sell any of the FN Five-Seven guns or ammunition to the public.

The gun's magazine usually holds 20 bullets, more than those of many handguns, and the sale of ones like it is illegal in Massachusetts.

Company officials defend the gun and said that, when used with the ammunition sold to the public, it is similar to many other handguns on the market. DeMilt said that his company cannot be responsible for illegal sales of the more lethal bullets designed for military and police use.

FN Herstal also makes the pepper-pellet gun that Boston police shelved after Red Sox fan Victoria Snelgrove was shot and killed in October 2004. Her family is suing the firm, and if the Snelgroves win, the city, as part of its wrongful death settlement with the family, would share the award.

Voegtlin said the guns should be illegal everywhere. ''Weapons that don't serve a legitimate hunting or sporting purpose and are designed to defeat or penetrate the body armor worn by police officers don't belong in our communities," he said.

Sid Heal, a tactical operations specialist and commander with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department who has handled the gun, said that the weapon is very powerful, even with bullets available to the public.

Heal also questioned why any company would sell bullets that can pierce body armor. ''What does a person need a pistol that can penetrate a vest for?" Heal said. ''I can tell you the average citizen doesn't."

Andrew Arulanandam, a National Rifle Association spokesman, said that the answer is not to make weapons illegal, but to better police the criminals who use them. ''If these crimes are being perpetrated by criminals who already have an existing record then they should not be in possession of any firearm or any ammunition," he said.

But Heal said the gun is dangerous and difficult to control because of its small size and high power.

''It goes so fast and it's penetrating because the round is so small," Heal said. ''There's rounds that go faster and there's rounds that are more penetrating, but none that I know of that come out of pistols. They come out of rifles."

Suzanne Smalley can be reached at [email protected].

© Copyright 2006 Globe Newspaper Company.

Source:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/02/18/boston_police_warn_of_vest_piercing_gun/

I wonder how many Five-seveNs these articles are selling? Asshats.

Quoted: I wonder how many Five-seveNs these articles are selling? Asshats.

There is no such thing as bad publicity.

But Heal said the gun is dangerous and difficult to control because of its small size and high power

Thats total BS. It's one of the easiest guns to control but this "scary" FN57 crap is old horseshit to begin with and yes I got one to piss off the anti's and for shits and giggles

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how many Five-seveNs these articles are selling? Asshats. There is no such thing as bad publicity.

Actually there is but this isn't considered bad publicity.

I think I'm gonna pick up some more ammo for mine today.    

''It goes so fast and it's penetrating because the round is so small," Heal said.

This quote is truly amusing. They used to whine because American handguns fired such big, powerful bullets. In Canada they banned centerfire handguns under a certain caliber- .32 I think. It just goes to show you that nothing is ever good enough for them, and the banning of all firearms is their ultimate goal.

Galland

The cops should start to be worried when mentions of the Five-seveN pop up in movies and hip hop albums.

They'd piss them selves if they ever heard of a Reed Express.

not another "cop killing ammo" alarm!  This seems to happen every 10 ears or so

I bought one last year because of all the furor it was causing, allong with 1,200 rounds of SS192 since I figured that was about to be banned.  Sure enough, FN stopped importing the SS192, and the value of my ammo has doubled, if not tripled.  One of my smartest buys.

So, the more it is mentioned in the press, the more of these will sell.

Quoted: not another "cop killing ammo" alarm!  This seems to happen every 10 earsweeks or so

Fixed.

What's old is new again

Quoted: ''It goes so fast and it's penetrating because the round is so small," Heal said. This quote is truly amusing. They used to whine because American handguns fired such big, powerful bullets. In Canada they banned centerfire handguns under a certain caliber- .32 I think. It just goes to show you that nothing is ever good enough for them, and the banning of all firearms is their ultimate goal. Galland

Correct.  I'm not sure that will help reduce crime, since only illegal handguns are used to commit crimes in Canada.  You actually have less rights owning a handgun in Canada than Title II firearms in the U.S. since the gov't can confiscate it at any time without a warrant.

The U.S. is a handgun candy store. (as it should be)

Quoted: I bought one last year because of all the furor it was causing, allong with 1,200 rounds of SS192 since I figured that was about to be banned.  Sure enough, FN stopped importing the SS192, and the value of my ammo has doubled, if not tripled.  One of my smartest buys. So, the more it is mentioned in the press, the more of these will sell.

Yeah, I had no desire for a smallbored handgun of that sort, but now I want one!  

I wonder if these morons realize that small bore bottlenecked handgun cartridges are hardly a NEW thing...

I wonder if they know that even a crappy broadhead can go right through a Threat Lvl IIa vest?  Maybe the should start talking about cop-killer arrows & bolts?

Maybe it's just my NRA brainwashing, but I though any bullet used to kill a police officer was a "cop killer"?  That way leads to cop killer cars, boats, hammers, knives, et al.

Retarded liberal.  What about a criminal that kills a cop with his mixed martial arts training, does that make him a cop killer too?  Should we ban mixed martial arts too?  

Retarded.  You cannot protect a society from itself.  Evil is in people and will never go away with any legislation.

Max

''These aren't recreational weapons," Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people."

WTF????

Quoted: ''These aren't recreational weapons," Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people." WTF????

+1

Quoted: ''These aren't recreational weapons," Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people." WTF????

If it wasn't I wouldn't buy one.... oh wait.  Nevermind :)

Quoted: ''It goes so fast and it's penetrating because the round is so small," Heal said. This quote is truly amusing. They used to whine because American handguns fired such big, powerful bullets. In Canada they banned centerfire handguns under a certain caliber- .32 I think. It just goes to show you that nothing is ever good enough for them, and the banning of all firearms is their ultimate goal. Galland

SO can you buy a FiveseveN with the SS190 round  in canada?  Inquiring minds want to know....

We need to see a box o truth with a bow versus armor and such!

Quoted: ''It goes so fast and it's penetrating because the round is so small," Heal said. This quote is truly amusing. They used to whine because American handguns fired such big, powerful bullets. In Canada they banned centerfire handguns under a certain caliber- .32 I think. It just goes to show you that nothing is ever good enough for them, and the banning of all firearms is their ultimate goal.

That's why we need to force their hand. See my sig. Any new ban on any firearm should have NO grandfather exceptions.

Force their hand. FORCE them right to their endgame. See what happens.

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how many Five-seveNs these articles are selling? Asshats. There is no such thing as bad publicity.

Oh yes there is.

Glocks almost got permabanned because of some dumbass "porcelain pistol" crap.

Quoted: ''These aren't recreational weapons," Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people." WTF????

And what, praytell Ms. O'Toole, are the weapons on your officer's hips designed for?? Tickling someone into submission????

well, that's just another case for RESPONSIBLE gun ownership....

a FivesevN is FAR too expensive for a homeboy to buy, so any on the streets will be stolen (homeboys STEAL THEIR GUNS?? *GASP*)

-don't leave a gun in your car
-don't leave guns in easy to find places in your home when you are not there
-don't loan your guns to friends (be a dick if you have to)

The vast majority of guns used in crimes are STOLEN and were never legally bought by their users. We as gun owners have a RESPONSIBILITY to protect our sport/hobby, not to mention innocent people by KEEPING OUR GUNS SECURE AT ALL TIMES!!!

More cops will be killed by their own guns, then will ever be killed by a 5.7.

do day gotz some beamz fo dat fitty?

oh noes!!!!111one

"a gun designed to kill people"

The department issued a safety alert to officers after two men were shot with the gun in Dorchester and Mattapan last week. The alert, obtained by the Globe, warned that the FN Five-Seven handgun fires the bullets at such a velocity that they ''will punch through your vest, PLATE included."


make it stop

''These aren't recreational weapons," Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people."

This sort of thing was said when my dads local gun club voted to allow .50 cals or not.  These people were the bread and butter of the club - bullseye shooters.

My dad, who is more at home with a gun with a walnut stock and on a bench rest commented, "I think Browning invented your 1911s to kill people just like his .50cal."

Quoted: ''These aren't recreational weapons," Police Commissioner Kathleen M. O'Toole said in an interview. ''This is an example of a gun designed to kill people." WTF????

Guns were designed to kill people?! I'll be. All this time I've had it wrong!

Another article about this same topic from the Boston Globe.  The usual suspects (Marty Meehan and Jarret Barrios) are all worked up over this:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/02/19/legislators_voice_fear_on_new_armor_piercing_weapons/

Legislators voice fear on new armor-piercing weapons
Data show guns may reach gangs
By Suzanne Smalley, Globe Staff  |  February 19, 2006

Legislators expressed concern yesterday over the distribution of a new firearm that can pierce body armor, after internal Boston police documents confirmed that the powerful weapon was used in two recent shootings in the city, and that it may have fallen into the hands of Boston street gangs.

US Representative Martin T. Meehan said he has cosponsored legislation that would ban a handgun called the ''FN Five-Seven." Meehan, who sits on the House Judiciary Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security Subcommittee, said in an interview that he had co-sponsored the legislation last March at the request of law enforcement officers, after he became convinced of the weapon's power and of the danger it posed for crime fighters.

''It's very easy to get ahold of bullets that pierce body armor," Meehan said. ''There's no reason these guns should be commercially available. They have no legitimate hunting or sporting purpose. They're designed to do one thing -- kill people, namely police officers."

Meehan said the company that makes the gun, FN Herstal, markets the weapon irresponsibly. ''They promote and brag that it will penetrate Kevlar," he said. ''Weapons experts agree that this particular gun is more dangerous than average handguns because of its high velocity."

But Rick DeMilt, a spokesman for FNH-USA, a US subsidiary for the gun's manufacturer, FN Herstal, based in Liège, Belgium, said Friday that the gun and ammunition it sells consumers in the United States is no more powerful than many handguns on the market.

He said that the company's more powerful gun and ammunition, available only to military and law enforcement agencies, is strictly regulated, and that his company cannot be responsible for illegal sales of the more powerful ammunition.

The company markets the more powerful ammunition as useful for ''all close combat situations in urban areas." It also advertises on its website that when using the ammunition sold only to military and law enforcement agencies, ''enemy personnel, even wearing body armor, can be effectively engaged up to 200 meters."

DeMilt says the commercially available bullets can penetrate body armor only in rare cases.

But Meehan said that was not true, and even if it were, it is not difficult for criminals to buy the armor-piercing bullets on the black market.

Meehan said the legislation he cosponsored has gone nowhere because, he said, ''the gun lobby has such a tight grip on the legislative process in Washington."

DeMilt said Massachusetts is the only state in the country in which the gun is not sold to the public, because, he said, it has never been approved here.

Three major Boston-area gun shops said the gun is not stocked because it does not meet standards mandated by the state.

Meredith Baumann, a spokesman for Attorney General Thomas F. Reilly, said the gun cannot currently be sold in Massachusetts because it is not on a list of approved firearms maintained by the state Executive Office of Public Safety.

''The attorney general is eager to work with the Legislature to further ensure guns and ammunition like this don't find their ways into our community," Baumann said. State Senator Jarrett Barrios, however, said he believes that the gun is legal here, but that its magazine is not, because it is too large. Barrios said he fears the maker could reduce the size of the magazine to conform to Massachusetts laws.

Therefore, he said, he has proposed legislation to ban both the gun and ammunition here. His bill will be voted on by the Joint Committee on Public Safety and Homeland Security, which Barrios chairs.

''We want to make it as difficult as possible for criminals intent on harming policemen to buy a Five-Seven and then turn around on the black market and buy the cop killer bullets," Barrios said.

''All they've got to do," he added, ''is next year turn around and produce something with a 10-round clip, and you can buy cop-killer ammunition in Massachusetts."

Barrios dismissed DeMilt's assertion that the ammunition legally sold in other states cannot penetrate most body armor.

''This company says different things to different people," Barrios said.

''The fact of the matter is they market a product which they claim can pierce body armor. They can't now claim that it won't."

Internal Boston police intelligence documents said bullets used in two recent Boston shootings can pierce body armor, and suggested that the ammunition has fallen into the hands of street gangs.

''It is believed that associates from these groups are in possession of the FN Five-Seven firearm, with armor-piercing rounds, and officers should use extreme caution when approaching any of these individuals," the data say.

The Boston police commissioner, Kathleen M. O'Toole, said in an interview Friday that the FN Five-Seven is ''designed to kill people" and said she would like to see firearms more stringently regulated.

Cheaper than a 5.7 by a long shot, and regular FMJ will pierce a kevlar vest.
Liberals are dumb as shit.
It ain't about the guns, it's about the control.

So I assume they think that outlawing the gun will stop people who won't obey a ban on the AP ammo?

If someone won't obey one law why would anyone think they'll obey two?

What is the liberals version of a sporting gun? A recreational gun?  I get lots of recreation out of all of my guns, they haven't killed anyone.  The sporting/recreational purpose argument allways gets me.......thousands of guns are sold everyday...if they were only good for killing people, wouldn't alot more guns be used in crime?  Obviously thousands of people don't buy guns to go shoot other people.  

Quoted: I think its important to remind thugs to shoot police in the head because they all wear vests. Brilliant.

You don't need to remind them
Hopefully they are bad shots