The OFFICIAL will the conveyor belt plane fly thread!!!! **UPDATE FIRST POST***

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The OFFICIAL will the conveyor belt plane fly thread!!!! **UPDATE FIRST POST*** (Page 1 of 20)

Posted: 12/10/2007 6:48:10 PM EDT

**********I'm just reminding everyone that this epic question will be answered tomorrow on MythBusters*************

This Wednesday Mythbusters will have an episode of "Airplane" myths, which I'm 95% sure it includes our conveyor belt plane question. Adam was quoted in a news article saying that the myth will be tested in an episode released in December.

No name calling!!!! No Personal Attacks!! Do not get this thread locked!

Post your predictions, grips about the show and youtube links for those of us unfortunate enough to miss the show when it does finally play!

ETA:

Unfortunately we were all let down last Wed. night as most of you now know Mythbusters either lied or made a clerical error, as the controversial question was not answer by Mythbusters last Wed.

I would like to let everyone know as per Mythbusters website, the Conveyor belt plane question will be tested by Mythbusters on Jan 30.

Hopefully it is for real this time. I highly doubt they would make the same mistake twice especially since the 10 page (as of the time of this posting) thread on Mythbusters own forum griping about POAT (Plane on a treadmill) not being in that episode as previously stated by Mythbusters.

There is a sneak peak of the POAT episode on the main page right below the picture of Jamie, Buster, and Adam here:

dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/mythbusters.html

Posted: 12/10/2007 6:49:59 PM EDT

[#1]

Not going to fly. (if the stipulation is that the plane does not move forward, but simply rises vertically off the runway)

It will fly. (If the stipulation is that the engine thrust overcomes the wheel drag and the plane moves forward)

ETA: stipulations

Posted: 12/10/2007 6:50:17 PM EDT

[#2]

IBTL

Posted: 12/10/2007 6:52:19 PM EDT

[#3]

What they do may not fly...

The real thing would fly.

Posted: 12/10/2007 6:53:11 PM EDT

[#4]

Will fly.

Posted: 12/10/2007 6:58:44 PM EDT

[#5]

Should be easy to test using a remote control plane. At least, that is how I would test it. I think it will lift off of the conveyor belt.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:00:21 PM EDT

[#6]

It'll fly (duh), but the arguing will continue. It's the ARFCOM way.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:02:02 PM EDT

[#7]

It should fly. The motion of the plane relative to the ground does not matter. What matters is the plane's motion relative to the air.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:02:09 PM EDT

[#8]

hasnt this thread been done to DEATH?

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:02:23 PM EDT

[#9]

Baleted

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:02:43 PM EDT

[#10]

I dont think it will fly

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:03:58 PM EDT

[#11]

Won't fly. No airflow over the wings for lift.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:04:04 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY.

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move.

END IT NOW!!!

There will be airflow over the wings, because no matter how fast they move that conveyor, it won't hold the plane still relative to a fixed object adjacent to the conveyor. My God, I can't wait for the episode to air. It seems that people need to see it with moving pictures before they get it.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:05:09 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY.

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move.

END IT NOW!!!

There will be airflow over the wings, because no matter how fast they move that conveyor, it won't hold the plane still relative to a fixed object adjacent to the conveyor. My God, I can't wait for the episode to air. It seems that people need to see it with moving pictures before they get it.

Check my OP, i added something like that already

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:06:08 PM EDT

[#14]

Will fly.

[/thread]

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:06:20 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY.

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move.

END IT NOW!!!

<someone who understands physics> It will fly. The speed of the conveyor is dependent upon the speed of the airplane. In order for the conveyor belt to move at all, the plane must be moving forward (air running over wings). The wheel/conveyor belt interaction does not overcome the engine/surrounding air interaction, and the plane will ocntinue to gain forward speed until enough lift is generated, and the plane takes off (unless the tires blow out, but given that this is an ideal situation in the question, it's presuming that the tires will not blow). </person who understands physics>

The airplane does not need to overcome the conveyor speed, because if the plane is not moving, then the conveyor will remain still. In order for the conveyor to be moving at all, the plane must be moving. If the plane speeds up to 10MPH, then the conveyor moves backwards at 10MPH, for a wheel speed of 20MPH - note: the plane is still moving forward, the source of lift. The plane is not powered like a automobile, where the wheels on the ground creates speed - the engines push the plane through the air, completely independent from whatever forces are acting upon the wheels.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:07:43 PM EDT

[#16]

I'd like to see how they're going to test it. Somehow I think acquiring a jet and building a big-ass conveyor belt are beyond even the mythbusters capabilities. And lets face it, a scale model won't suffice.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:09:31 PM EDT

[#17]

Yep, it will be included in Wed episode, from the website:

MythBusters
Air Plane Hour
TV-PG

Jamie and Adam take wing to test if a person with no flight training can safely land an airplane and if a plane can take off from a conveyor belt speeding in the opposite direction. Tory, Grant, and Kari jump on some Hollywood-inspired skydiving myths.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:09:33 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I'd like to see how they're going to test it. Somehow I think acquiring a jet and building a big-ass conveyor belt are beyond even the mythbusters capabilities. And lets face it, a scale model won't suffice.

Why won't a scale model suffice? Lift is lift. A conveyor is a conveyor. What's size got to do with it?

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:10:13 PM EDT

[#19]

It will fly. End of story.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:11:29 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY.

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move.

END IT NOW!!!

<someone who understands physics> It will fly. The speed of the conveyor is dependent upon the speed of the airplane. In order for the conveyor belt to move at all, the plane must be moving forward (air running over wings). The wheel/conveyor belt interaction does not overcome the engine/surrounding air interaction, and the plane will ocntinue to gain forward speed until enough lift is generated, and the plane takes off (unless the tires blow out, but given that this is an ideal situation in the question, it's presuming that the tires will not blow). </person who understands physics>

The airplane does not need to overcome the conveyor speed, because if the plane is not moving, then the conveyor will remain still. In order for the conveyor to be moving at all, the plane must be moving. If the plane speeds up to 10MPH, then the conveyor moves backwards at 10MPH, for a wheel speed of 20MPH - note: the plane is still moving forward, the source of lift. The plane is not powered like a automobile, where the wheels on the ground creates speed - the engines push the plane through the air, completely independent from whatever forces are acting upon the wheels.

READ MY OP. i added the last part after (already told Subnet same thing)

ETA

I even put it in PRETTY BOLD for you.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:12:18 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
READ MY OP. i added the last part after (already told Subnet same thing)

Nice save.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:12:39 PM EDT

[#22]

ridiculous.

will fly, period /thread.

drag on the wheels is negligible (unless the brakes are applied obviously). The airplane pulls itself through the air, never does it push itself along on the ground. An airplane can fly with no wheel movement at all given the thrust from the engines is enough to overcome the friction drag from the tires on the pavement.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:13:26 PM EDT

[#23]

assuming the conveyor belt is long enough for the plane to gain speed, the plane will fly.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:13:45 PM EDT

[#24]

I just dont understand the question, does the airplane move in relation to the ground or is the tread mill supposed to magically keep it stationary?

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:14:04 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY.

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move. Or if the aircrafts speed overcomes the conveyors speed, and the aircraft starts moving.

THE PLANE NEEDS TO MOVE FOREWARDS IN ORDER TO FLY.

END IT NOW!!!

+1

No airflow under the wings, no lift.
I thought the whole deal of the conveyor is that it is exerting whatever opposite force necessary for the plane to remain stationary.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:14:17 PM EDT

[#26]

do we have to post the fucking you tube video 20 more times?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:16:50 PM EDT

[#27]

Here is video proof it WILL take off!. Yes i know that vid is in jest but i vote it will fly.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:16:58 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I just dont understand the question, does the airplane move in relation to the ground or is the tread mill supposed to magically keep it stationary?

Some folks think the treadmill magically keeps the plane stationary. It's been the subject of at least 2 50+ page threads. I think one hit the 100 page limit. The ones who insisted it would not fly (a healthy percentage of the membership, I'll have you know) were actually arguing with aeronautical engineers. I swear to God.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:17:05 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Won't fly. No airflow over the wings for lift.

....except for the breeze created by that spinning thing in the front of the plane.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:17:16 PM EDT

[#30]

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:18:36 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY.

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move. Or if the aircrafts speed overcomes the conveyors speed, and the aircraft starts moving.

THE PLANE NEEDS TO MOVE FOREWARDS IN ORDER TO FLY.

END IT NOW!!!

+1

No airflow under the wings, no lift.
I thought the whole deal of the conveyor is that it is exerting whatever opposite force necessary for the plane to remain stationary.

This is what i thought as well.

But if your talking about a real world experiance, it'll take off, the wheels will just spin faster.

So i suppose you could say "will fly"

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:18:57 PM EDT

[#32]

The people who think it will not fly are still rooted in the car world. They think that the conveyor belt can actually stop the airplane from moving forward. It can't.

Lets all get this straight people- Airplanes are not cars. The wheels do nothing but reduce friction between the airplane and the ground. They don't transmit any engine power, they don't help accelerate the plane, and how fast they spin has nothing to do with how fast the airplane is going in this situation. They could spin as fast as you please and it wouldn't matter one little bit.

There is no way the conveyor belt is ever going to be able to transmit enough drag through those wheels and bearings to overcome the thrust of the engine, be it a jet, turboprop or dinky little 90HP air cooled.

Takeoff would start with a funny noise as the airplane taxied off the silly conveyor and then take off would proceed as always.

-Local

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:19:24 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
No airflow under the wings, no lift.
I thought the whole deal of the conveyor is that it is exerting whatever opposite force necessary for the plane to remain stationary.

You must be talking about those new fangled planes that are driven by the wheels. We're talking about the old fashioned ones, where the wheels sit there spinning, keeping the underside of the plane from getting fucked up.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:19:33 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I just dont understand the question, does the airplane move in relation to the ground or is the tread mill supposed to magically keep it stationary?

Some folks think the treadmill magically keeps the plane stationary. It's been the subject of at least 2 50+ page threads. I think one hit the 100 page limit. The ones who insisted it would not fly (a healthy percentage of the membership, I'll have you know) were actually arguing with aeronautical engineers. I swear to God.

all you no-fly types take note: all the pilots and aero engineers all say "will fly".... should tell you something

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:20:05 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
It should fly. The motion of the plane relative to the ground does not matter. What matters is the plane's motion relative to the air.

you are correct sir

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:20:36 PM EDT

[#36]

tag, um it will fly

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:20:46 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Here is video proof it WILL take off!. Yes i know that vid is in jest but i vote it will fly.

Crappy vid. You can find a better one here

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:21:37 PM EDT

[#38]

My guess is that they will do it all wrong and reach the wrong conclusion. I hate that show.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:26:42 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Here is video proof it WILL take off!. Yes i know that vid is in jest but i vote it will fly.

Crappy vid. You can find a better one here

WRONG! eBGIQ7ZuuiU is a KNOWN Rick Roll youtube URL.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:26:49 PM EDT

[#40]

Yup, it'll take off.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:27:18 PM EDT

[#41]

Okay, heres my question. Since i was under a wrongful assumption (IE, some "force" not allowing the plane to move individually of the treadmill), Then WHAT THE HELL ARE WE ARGUING ABOUT?!

If the plane can move individually of the treadmill (IE, in real world without "magical" constraints), then what the hell is stopping it from moving?!

The airplane wheels go from 0 RPM to full speed when a plane lands, and it doesn't affect the plane at all.....

Where the fuck did this whole cluster fuck even come from?!

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:29:47 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY.

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move.

END IT NOW!!!

<someone who understands physics> It will fly. The speed of the conveyor is dependent upon the speed of the airplane. In order for the conveyor belt to move at all, the plane must be moving forward (air running over wings). The wheel/conveyor belt interaction does not overcome the engine/surrounding air interaction, and the plane will ocntinue to gain forward speed until enough lift is generated, and the plane takes off (unless the tires blow out, but given that this is an ideal situation in the question, it's presuming that the tires will not blow). </person who understands physics>

The airplane does not need to overcome the conveyor speed, because if the plane is not moving, then the conveyor will remain still. In order for the conveyor to be moving at all, the plane must be moving. If the plane speeds up to 10MPH, then the conveyor moves backwards at 10MPH, for a wheel speed of 20MPH - note: the plane is still moving forward, the source of lift. The plane is not powered like a automobile, where the wheels on the ground creates speed - the engines push the plane through the air, completely independent from whatever forces are acting upon the wheels.

READ MY OP. i added the last part after (already told Subnet same thing)

ETA

I even put it in PRETTY BOLD for you.

I saw it. The conveyor belt does not have to be "overcome" since it is irrelevent due to what I mentioned above (2nd paragraph). If the plane has neough power to move on a stationary runway, then it will be able to overcome the conveyor belt. Remember, the belt does NOT move UNLESS the plane moves, and the movement of the ocnveyor belt only matches the ground speed of the plane. If there is no ground speed of the plane, then the conveyor is motionless.

It serves to confuse those who can't understand the difference between how automobiles and airplanes accellerate.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:30:02 PM EDT

[#43]

Will FLy...but then true to the show will crash and smash the dummy pilot....

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:30:03 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY. (IF IT STAYS IN FIXED LOCATION)

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move. Or if the aircrafts speed overcomes the conveyors speed, and the aircraft starts moving.

THE PLANE NEEDS TO MOVE FOREWARDS IN ORDER TO FLY.

END IT NOW!!!

It'll end as soon as people quit saying it won't fly

There's nothing in the original scenario to keep the plane from moving.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:30:39 PM EDT

[#45]

yes, but we're in arfcom land, where the rules apply differently.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:33:37 PM EDT

[#46]

Think catapult on aircraft carrier.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:34:09 PM EDT

[#47]

what if its a harrier?

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:35:48 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Holy fuck, not another one

WILL NOT FLY.

The wheels can be spinning 10,000 RPM, but unless there is AIRFLOW moving over the wings, it will not create lift.

Unless the aircraft has a positive thrust to weight ratio with enough sheer thrust to take off strait up, the thing will not move.

END IT NOW!!!

There will be airflow over the wings, because no matter how fast they move that conveyor, it won't hold the plane still relative to a fixed object adjacent to the conveyor. My God, I can't wait for the episode to air. It seems that people need to see it with moving pictures before they get it.

They'll still doubt it by claiming the conveyer wasn't moving fast enough.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:36:16 PM EDT

[#49]

Takes airflow over a wing. thats why an airplane flies. the wheels can go as fast as they want, but if there is no airflow on the wings, you ain't going no-where. youre tires will blow depending on their rating.
Its like a car on a dyno tester. the wheels are movin, but it aint going anywhere, and the spoiler on the back....yeah it aint doing jack.

Now if they provide airflow over the wing/to the engine(s) when they are running at takeoff power, then you have a different scenario.

Or if engine thrust to weight ratio is great than 1:1 and the aircraft is angled (then its a rocket, but it would fly)

But sitting on an opposite rotating conveyor belt with no relative motion, the only thing that will turn are the wheels and the motors. it takes at least somewhat of a relative forward motion for the plane to fly.

And I'm a pilot, so whoever said pilots and engineers say it'll fly, not me.

So unless I am misunderstanding the scenario, I vote it won't fly.

Posted: 12/10/2007 7:36:16 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
do we have to post the fucking you tube video 20 more times?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

After this post/vid, this thread should be closed. It has now been scientifically proven that the plane will accelerate identically in relation to a fixed point in space regardless of ground speed. Unless there is just so much friction in the wheel bearings that all of the plane's thrust is used up trying to keep the plane from being dragged backwards (not a real-life situation), then the speed of the ground/treadmill becomes irrelevant.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The OFFICIAL will the conveyor belt plane fly thread!!!! **UPDATE FIRST POST*** (Page 1 of 20)

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