THIS BILL PASSED CONGRESS. THIS BILL TURNS OVER ALL VETERAN RECORDS OVER TO NICS TO CHECK AGAINST ANY MENTAL CONDITIONS A VETERAN MAY HAVE HAD OR HAS. THIS IS ANOTHER MAJOR STEP IN GUN CONTROL AND IN VASION OF PRIVACY.
 TO READ THIS ARTICAL GO TO:  http://apnews.myway.com//article/20071220/D8TL2G0.html

NO IT'S NOT.  READ WTF THE BILL ACTUALLY DOES.  THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS ON THIS.  THE NRA SUPPORTED THIS BILL FOR A REASON.


IBTL

Quoted: NO IT'S NOT.  READ WTF THE BILL ACTUALLY DOES.  THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS ON THIS.  THE NRA SUPPORTED THIS BILL FOR A REASON. IBTL

You should look up all the other gun control legislation the NRA supported.

Quoted: Quoted: NO IT'S NOT.  READ WTF THE BILL ACTUALLY DOES.  THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS ON THIS.  THE NRA SUPPORTED THIS BILL FOR A REASON. IBTL You should look up all the other gun control legislation the NRA supported.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: NO IT'S NOT.  READ WTF THE BILL ACTUALLY DOES.  THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS ON THIS.  THE NRA SUPPORTED THIS BILL FOR A REASON. IBTL You should look up all the other gun control legislation the NRA supported. www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jgeist/omg/shitstorm-flyer.jpg

 IBTL

Quoted: Quoted: NO IT'S NOT.  READ WTF THE BILL ACTUALLY DOES.  THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS ON THIS.  THE NRA SUPPORTED THIS BILL FOR A REASON. IBTL You should look up all the other gun control legislation the NRA supported.

I said they supported it for a reason.  I didn't say everything the NRA supports is good.

Sometimes I forget I have to break down my posts Barney-style for ARFCOM.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: NO IT'S NOT.  READ WTF THE BILL ACTUALLY DOES.  THERE ARE ALREADY THREADS ON THIS.  THE NRA SUPPORTED THIS BILL FOR A REASON. IBTL You should look up all the other gun control legislation the NRA supported. I said they supported it for a reason.  I didn't say everything the NRA supports is good. Sometimes I forget I have to break down my posts Barney-style for ARFCOM.

You mean like a rapping purple dinosaur?

This is going to piss some people off, but I'm just going to say it.

There are some people who should not own guns.

This most definitely includes those with significant mental health problems.  

Major Depression?  Please don't use your gun to kill yourself... not only is it a waste of your life, and guaranteed to hurt the very people who care about you, but you're giving one more statistic to those who blame guns for every societal ill.

Bipolar?  Please don't own a gun... manic episode combined with firepower?  Bad news... these are the guys you see on the news, waving swords, and claiming they've got "a thousand years of power."

Schizophrenic?  When the auditory hallucinations really get rolling, and the TV starts sending you secret messages, urging you to kill all the "federal assassins," I'd rather you didn't have a gun.  Schizophrenia is a life-long illness... sometimes treatable, but not curable, and there are a percentage of people who don't get better no matter what medicine you put them on.  Even those who are treatable are subject to periodic psychotic "breaks," where they relapse.

Mental health is an under-appreciated area of medicine, and you've really got to see it up-close to grasp how wild and out-of-control people can get.  Such people shouldn't own guns... for their own safety, and that of everyone else.

I'm sure somebody here is going to jump my case for saying that, but some people simply shouldn't own weapons.

Quoted: This is going to piss some people off, but I'm just going to say it. There are some people who should not own guns. This most definitely includes those with significant mental health problems.   Major Depression?  Please don't use your gun to kill yourself... not only is it a waste of your life, and guaranteed to hurt the very people who care about you, but you're giving one more statistic to those who blame guns for every societal ill. Bipolar?  Please don't own a gun... manic episode combined with firepower?  Bad news... these are the guys you see on the news, waving swords, and claiming they've got "a thousand years of power." Schizophrenic?  When the auditory hallucinations really get rolling, and the TV starts sending you secret messages, urging you to kill all the "federal assassins," I'd rather you didn't have a gun.  Schizophrenia is a life-long illness... sometimes treatable, but not curable, and there are a percentage of people who don't get better no matter what medicine you put them on.  Even those who are treatable are subject to periodic psychotic "breaks," where they relapse. Mental health is an under-appreciated area of medicine, and you've really got to see it up-close to grasp how wild and out-of-control people can get.  Such people shouldn't own guns... for their own safety, and that of everyone else. I'm sure somebody here is going to jump my case for saying that, but some people simply shouldn't own weapons.

Well said.  I agree with you on this.

Quoted: This is going to piss some people off, but I'm just going to say it. There are some people who should not own guns. This most definitely includes those with significant mental health problems.   Major Depression?  Please don't use your gun to kill yourself... not only is it a waste of your life, and guaranteed to hurt the very people who care about you, but you're giving one more statistic to those who blame guns for every societal ill. Bipolar?  Please don't own a gun... manic episode combined with firepower?  Bad news... these are the guys you see on the news, waving swords, and claiming they've got "a thousand years of power." Schizophrenic?  When the auditory hallucinations really get rolling, and the TV starts sending you secret messages, urging you to kill all the "federal assassins," I'd rather you didn't have a gun.  Schizophrenia is a life-long illness... sometimes treatable, but not curable, and there are a percentage of people who don't get better no matter what medicine you put them on.  Even those who are treatable are subject to periodic psychotic "breaks," where they relapse. Mental health is an under-appreciated area of medicine, and you've really got to see it up-close to grasp how wild and out-of-control people can get.  Such people shouldn't own guns... for their own safety, and that of everyone else. I'm sure somebody here is going to jump my case for saying that, but some people simply shouldn't own weapons.

If they are such a danger, to themselves or to others, then get them off the street either into an appropriate medical facility or prison.

Otherwise, if they are free men, they should enjoy all the rights of a free man.

Quoted: This is going to piss some people off, but I'm just going to say it. There are some people who should not own guns. This most definitely includes those with significant mental health problems.   Major Depression?  Please don't use your gun to kill yourself... not only is it a waste of your life, and guaranteed to hurt the very people who care about you, but you're giving one more statistic to those who blame guns for every societal ill. Bipolar?  Please don't own a gun... manic episode combined with firepower?  Bad news... these are the guys you see on the news, waving swords, and claiming they've got "a thousand years of power." Schizophrenic?  When the auditory hallucinations really get rolling, and the TV starts sending you secret messages, urging you to kill all the "federal assassins," I'd rather you didn't have a gun.  Schizophrenia is a life-long illness... sometimes treatable, but not curable, and there are a percentage of people who don't get better no matter what medicine you put them on.  Even those who are treatable are subject to periodic psychotic "breaks," where they relapse. Mental health is an under-appreciated area of medicine, and you've really got to see it up-close to grasp how wild and out-of-control people can get.  Such people shouldn't own guns... for their own safety, and that of everyone else. I'm sure somebody here is going to jump my case for saying that, but some people simply shouldn't own weapons.

But....but....but....they have riiiiiiiiiiiights! You cant take their guns away!

I will feel better. It has always baffled me why we do background checks but don't care if someone is batshit crazy or not.  

The NRA makes concessions only because they HAVE to. Like I have said before. Head or gut, either way your getting hit. (that is REALITY)

If you argue against this bill, you are just sinking the ship. You have to use your head. I read the NRA's view on this and it is a good bill. It gives much more rights back than it takes away from people who are not batshit crazy.

Quoted: Quoted: This is going to piss some people off, but I'm just going to say it. There are some people who should not own guns. This most definitely includes those with significant mental health problems.   Major Depression?  Please don't use your gun to kill yourself... not only is it a waste of your life, and guaranteed to hurt the very people who care about you, but you're giving one more statistic to those who blame guns for every societal ill. Bipolar?  Please don't own a gun... manic episode combined with firepower?  Bad news... these are the guys you see on the news, waving swords, and claiming they've got "a thousand years of power." Schizophrenic?  When the auditory hallucinations really get rolling, and the TV starts sending you secret messages, urging you to kill all the "federal assassins," I'd rather you didn't have a gun.  Schizophrenia is a life-long illness... sometimes treatable, but not curable, and there are a percentage of people who don't get better no matter what medicine you put them on.  Even those who are treatable are subject to periodic psychotic "breaks," where they relapse. Mental health is an under-appreciated area of medicine, and you've really got to see it up-close to grasp how wild and out-of-control people can get.  Such people shouldn't own guns... for their own safety, and that of everyone else. I'm sure somebody here is going to jump my case for saying that, but some people simply shouldn't own weapons. If they are such a danger, to themselves or to others, then get them off the street either into an appropriate medical facility or prison. Otherwise, if they are free men, they should enjoy all the rights of a free man.

Sorry... can't agree with you there.

We don't institutionalize everybody like they did years ago.,. nor do we even have the capability to do it.  In the 1980's, lots of states flat-out closed their "state hospitals," and now there is a shortage of places to put people for treatment.  Not only are long-term inpatient mental health facilities extraordinarily expensive, but they're not really needed for everybody.  The current emphasis is on community treatment (for better or worse).

It's not completely without reason... diseases are better understood now, and drugs have gotten better.  The newer "atypical" anti-psychotics are more effective than the older drugs, and have fewer side-effects (even these newer drugs don't treat everybody... 10-15% are refractory to drug treatment).  Even so, schizophrenics are notorious for going "off their meds," just like seizure patients (the #1 cause for people showing up at the ER with a seizure is seizure-patient-who-stopped-their-meds).  

Schizophrenia is a life-long illness, and some people have relapses even when they stay on their meds.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is going to piss some people off, but I'm just going to say it. There are some people who should not own guns. This most definitely includes those with significant mental health problems.   Major Depression?  Please don't use your gun to kill yourself... not only is it a waste of your life, and guaranteed to hurt the very people who care about you, but you're giving one more statistic to those who blame guns for every societal ill. Bipolar?  Please don't own a gun... manic episode combined with firepower?  Bad news... these are the guys you see on the news, waving swords, and claiming they've got "a thousand years of power." Schizophrenic?  When the auditory hallucinations really get rolling, and the TV starts sending you secret messages, urging you to kill all the "federal assassins," I'd rather you didn't have a gun.  Schizophrenia is a life-long illness... sometimes treatable, but not curable, and there are a percentage of people who don't get better no matter what medicine you put them on.  Even those who are treatable are subject to periodic psychotic "breaks," where they relapse. Mental health is an under-appreciated area of medicine, and you've really got to see it up-close to grasp how wild and out-of-control people can get.  Such people shouldn't own guns... for their own safety, and that of everyone else. I'm sure somebody here is going to jump my case for saying that, but some people simply shouldn't own weapons. If they are such a danger, to themselves or to others, then get them off the street either into an appropriate medical facility or prison. Otherwise, if they are free men, they should enjoy all the rights of a free man. Sorry... can't agree with you there. We don't institutionalize everybody like they did years ago.,. nor do we even have the capability to do it.  In the 1980's, lots of states flat-out closed their "state hospitals," and now there is a shortage of places to put people for treatment.  Not only are long-term inpatient mental health facilities extraordinarily expensive, but they're not really needed for everybody.  The current emphasis is on community treatment (for better or worse). It's not completely without reason... diseases are better understood now, and drugs have gotten better.  The newer "atypical" anti-psychotics are more effective than the older drugs, and have fewer side-effects (even these newer drugs don't treat everybody... 10-15% are refractory to drug treatment).  Even so, schizophrenics are notorious for going "off their meds," just like seizure patients (the #1 cause for people showing up at the ER with a seizure is seizure-patient-who-stopped-their-meds).   Schizophrenia is a life-long illness, and some people have relapses even when they stay on their meds.

So then, are you saying they do not enjoy a God given right to self defense?

It seems to me that many of the recent "rampage" shooters were most likely suffering from depression, but the anti-depressant drugs they were on had very negative effects on their mental stability.  I've seen first hand in a close family member the negative reaction that is all too common with some of these "anti-depressants".  It doesn't take much of an imagination to see the libs wanting anyone who has ever been diagnosed with depression added to the list of those who cannot own firearms.  I also don't think it's right to scrutinize someones background looking for something that may disqualify them from owning a firearm just because they have served their country.  I do however think that there are far too many mentally ill people out there walking the streets that should not be.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is going to piss some people off, but I'm just going to say it. There are some people who should not own guns. This most definitely includes those with significant mental health problems.   Major Depression?  Please don't use your gun to kill yourself... not only is it a waste of your life, and guaranteed to hurt the very people who care about you, but you're giving one more statistic to those who blame guns for every societal ill. Bipolar?  Please don't own a gun... manic episode combined with firepower?  Bad news... these are the guys you see on the news, waving swords, and claiming they've got "a thousand years of power." Schizophrenic?  When the auditory hallucinations really get rolling, and the TV starts sending you secret messages, urging you to kill all the "federal assassins," I'd rather you didn't have a gun.  Schizophrenia is a life-long illness... sometimes treatable, but not curable, and there are a percentage of people who don't get better no matter what medicine you put them on.  Even those who are treatable are subject to periodic psychotic "breaks," where they relapse. Mental health is an under-appreciated area of medicine, and you've really got to see it up-close to grasp how wild and out-of-control people can get.  Such people shouldn't own guns... for their own safety, and that of everyone else. I'm sure somebody here is going to jump my case for saying that, but some people simply shouldn't own weapons. If they are such a danger, to themselves or to others, then get them off the street either into an appropriate medical facility or prison. Otherwise, if they are free men, they should enjoy all the rights of a free man. Sorry... can't agree with you there. We don't institutionalize everybody like they did years ago.,. nor do we even have the capability to do it.  In the 1980's, lots of states flat-out closed their "state hospitals," and now there is a shortage of places to put people for treatment.  Not only are long-term inpatient mental health facilities extraordinarily expensive, but they're not really needed for everybody.  The current emphasis is on community treatment (for better or worse). It's not completely without reason... diseases are better understood now, and drugs have gotten better.  The newer "atypical" anti-psychotics are more effective than the older drugs, and have fewer side-effects (even these newer drugs don't treat everybody... 10-15% are refractory to drug treatment).  Even so, schizophrenics are notorious for going "off their meds," just like seizure patients (the #1 cause for people showing up at the ER with a seizure is seizure-patient-who-stopped-their-meds).   Schizophrenia is a life-long illness, and some people have relapses even when they stay on their meds. So then, are you saying they do not enjoy a God given right to self defense?

Here we go...

I'm saying people with mental instability, hallucinations, paranoia, delusions, and suicidal/homicidal ideation should not own weapons... because they are at significant risk for using those weapons on themselves (schizophrenics have 5-15% lifetime risk of suicide, depending on what study you read).  They also have a habit of preemptively "defending themselves" against the imagined horde of CIA assassins that's being led by that shifty convenience store owner down the street (He thinks I don't know!!!) who keeps calling the police to kick you off the property.

I'm as pro-gun as anybody, but I deal with these patients professionally.... You can think what you want., but I'm not for arming those who are of unsound mind.

Quoted: Here we go... I'm saying people with mental instability, hallucinations, paranoia, delusions, and suicidal/homicidal ideation should not own weapons... because they are at significant risk for using those weapons on themselves (schizophrenics have 5-15% lifetime risk of suicide, depending on what study you read).  They also have a habit of preemptively "defending themselves" against the imagined horde of CIA assassins that's being led by that shifty convenience store owner down the street (He thinks I don't know!!!) who keeps calling the police to kick you off the property. I'm as pro-gun as anybody, but I deal with these patients professionally.... You can think what you want., but I'm not for arming those who are of unsound mind.

I understand.

Does this mean they should not have kitchen implements?  Automobiles??  Where do you draw the line?

I ask this respectfully, because as an obviously educated and experienced person, you know that someone who is going to do harm (to themselves or others) WILL find a way to do it... hence my suggestion that if they are such a risk, they not be free.

Quoted: This is going to piss some people off, but I'm just going to say it. There are some people who should not own guns. This most definitely includes those with significant mental health problems.   Major Depression?  Please don't use your gun to kill yourself... not only is it a waste of your life, and guaranteed to hurt the very people who care about you, but you're giving one more statistic to those who blame guns for every societal ill. Bipolar?  Please don't own a gun... manic episode combined with firepower?  Bad news... these are the guys you see on the news, waving swords, and claiming they've got "a thousand years of power." Schizophrenic?  When the auditory hallucinations really get rolling, and the TV starts sending you secret messages, urging you to kill all the "federal assassins," I'd rather you didn't have a gun.  Schizophrenia is a life-long illness... sometimes treatable, but not curable, and there are a percentage of people who don't get better no matter what medicine you put them on.  Even those who are treatable are subject to periodic psychotic "breaks," where they relapse. Mental health is an under-appreciated area of medicine, and you've really got to see it up-close to grasp how wild and out-of-control people can get.  Such people shouldn't own guns... for their own safety, and that of everyone else. I'm sure somebody here is going to jump my case for saying that, but some people simply shouldn't own weapons.

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Here we go... I'm saying people with mental instability, hallucinations, paranoia, delusions, and suicidal/homicidal ideation should not own weapons... because they are at significant risk for using those weapons on themselves (schizophrenics have 5-15% lifetime risk of suicide, depending on what study you read).  They also have a habit of preemptively "defending themselves" against the imagined horde of CIA assassins that's being led by that shifty convenience store owner down the street (He thinks I don't know!!!) who keeps calling the police to kick you off the property. I'm as pro-gun as anybody, but I deal with these patients professionally.... You can think what you want., but I'm not for arming those who are of unsound mind. I understand. Does this mean they should not have kitchen implements?  Automobiles??  Where do you draw the line? I ask this respectfully, because as an obviously educated and experienced person, you know that someone who is going to do harm (to themselves or others) WILL find a way to do it... hence my suggestion that if they are such a risk, they not be free.

Fair question... and I'll try to answer it.

We take all sorts of things into account when we decide to keep/release somebody (do they have a house full of guns?  Do they have a 5-gallon-bucket of tricyclic antidepressants they're going to funnel into their stomach the moment we release them?)  I never turn anybody loose who I think is a danger to themselves or others... but psychiatric facilities have limited space, and can only hold onto patients so long.  They eventually get stabilized, released, then what happens to them is in their own hands.  

If they don't like their medications ("they give me dry mouth," "I don't like the way they make me feel," etc), then they'll eventually relapse.  If there's no place to put them long-term, they can go through this "revolving door" many many times.  You have to understand that many of these patients are uninsured, homeless, etc (or under-insured, because lots of plans don't cover mental health services beyond a VERY minimal amount).  There is a definite "downward socioeconomic drift" with these patients.

You do what you can.

As an aside, loss of rights/privileges is not unprecedented when a danger is presented to the public, or to the patient.  Seizure patients are unable to get drivers licenses in most states without a seizure-free interval of anywhere from 6-12 months.  The rationale being that if they are prone to frequent seizures, they shouldn't do it behind the wheel of a 6000lb bludgeon, moving at 70mph.

States have various laws that allow health care providers to constrain the rights of those with mental health issues, substance abuse issues, etc, etc... but those only go so far.

People will kill themselves with other things, you're quite correct... I've seen them jump from buildings/bridges, leap into traffic, suicide-by-cop, drowning, hanging... you name it.  You have a responsibility to attempt to make things as safe for the patient as you can (eg. don't prescribe a bucket of tricyclics... restrict them to SSRIs), and then you cross your fingers and hope for the best.  

Unfortunately, either due to relapse, medication non-compliance, lack of social/family support, lack of facilities, etc, it doesn't always work out.