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http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8453/f18fgunf22020lz.jpg

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HAHA!  They are NEVER going to live that down!

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Heh.

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http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8453/f18fgunf22020lz.jpg

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I'd like to know the story behind that picture. F-22 should have smoked the other plane long before it ever got that close.

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I'd like to know the story behind that picture. F-22 should have smoked the other plane long before it ever got that close.

Dozer's post: (F-22 flight demo pilot)

This ONE infamous gun shot on a Raptor has been covered before. First off it ought to tell you something about this airplane that ONE fleeting snap shot is taken of this airplane and so many people have to make a big deal about it. Why is that? Might ask yourself that question. Might be that the airplane is so good, and so dominant, and some people are so tired of hearing of and having to deal with that, that they'll latch on to anything just to take one cheap shot at it. I'm of the opinion we'd all be happy the dang thing is on our side and its so lethal there AREN'T any other shots on it. But once again and I think for the last time, I'll provide as Paul Harvey says, "the rest of the story". It was a 1 vs. 1 BFM canned setup. The Hornet driver broke the ROE, you say in war there isn't any, partly true - we have ROE, this is really a training rules discussion (proper terms are mixed up but not important here), but our ROE (or TR's) are written in blood because many pilots have died making mistakes that we then crafted rules of engagement from to keep us from killing each other for real in training. The ROE still allows us to push to the limits as far as possible and mimic realistic combat conditions as close as possible so we're as prepared for combat as we can be without making those written in blood mistakes. We're trained from day one to "knock it off" when we find ourselves exceeding those ROE so we don't die for real or lose a jet. This engagement in question is a classic example of what not to do and what we all try to avoid, unless we're so keyed to cheat and get the shot we're being stupid and instead want to try to kill another pilot and ourselves and destroy 2 very valuable assets (a good friend of mine was within about a millisecond of dying in a mid-air collision just a month ago here in Alaska - it's a real threat). The Hornet driver in this case was stupid, I can say that easily because I've done it too (usually just get too aggressive and screw up and get too close), and I've had it happen "to" me often enough. But a key is we always debrief the heck out of ourselves so we aren't let off the hook when we screw up. It only makes us better in the long run. The Raptor pilot "backed" off on the pull because of the 1000 foot bubble ROE, otherwise he could have kept pulling too and you'd have had a 100 foot pass or a collision with both jets pointing right at each other. So the Hornet driver, stupidly, cheated by taking this shot and the lesson or gun footage isn't worthwhile other than as propaganda because the opposing pilot followed the rules, if the Raptor pilot would have blantantly blown off the rules this gun camera shot wouldn't exists because they'd both been sucking up seat cushion hoping they didn't trade paint during the pass. The problem with these "high aspect" passes is that it is extremely difficult to judge line of sight, closure and aspect angle until it's almost too late, usually you're seeing anwhere from 300 to 400 knots (slow end) up to 1200 knots of closure during these passes, it happens very fast and you literally have seconds (or less) to react and avoid hitting each other. THAT's where the ROE comes from and why it's so important, far too many pilots are no longer with us today, and countless more airplanes, because pilots either too brazenly blew off the ROE, or in most cases their fangs came out too far and they pushed too hard and lost. We have to assume that in war, in that one in a million chance your in the phone booth with an adversary, and it comes down to BFM and gun shots, that your instincts take over and you can make that snap judgement to go further than you did in training because it IS life or death and that's when ROE doesn't matter because you'll die for sure if you back off - but in peacetime that's just dumb. Even then, most of the time I've found I wouldn't want to press much further than the ROE anyhow, especially with a gun shot, you get too close, you'll probably be in your parachute too because you actually hit each other or you frag yourself by flying through the parts & pieces of the airplane you just shot (jet engines don't like pieces of metal very much).

So it's a useless drill, lessons learned are only valid if the parameters which surround them would be valid in war, in this case they weren't because both pilots were applying a different set of "rules" in their mind, or more correctly one pilot was following the rules and one wasn't. The results wouldn't be this in war because I guarantee if the Raptor pilot thought he was about to die he'd be pointing right back at the Hornet shooting too, and with our nose pointing capability, he'd probably be pointing & shooting first.

No fighter pilot is going to argue otherwise on this point unless he's a bad one, too young to consider the consequences (i.e. he hasn't been scared SH$@Less enough yet), or is being completely intellectually dishonest. Seasoned, experienced fighter pilots know why this type of pass / shot is dangerous and can't be tolerated as acceptable.

If anyone wants to discuss further I'll be happy to explain why you're wrong!!!

ECHDT's Post (F-18 flight demo pilot)
OK I have thoroughly read enough on the Hornet v Raptor gun footage. The shot was valid, it may or may not have been a training rule violation. What is not being covered here is this. The Navy training rules read as follows: "Gun attacks shall be broken off at 1000' so as not to go inside the 500' bubble. No gun attacks within 45 degrees of the targets nose" The Navy does not have a 1000' bubble but rather "breaks off the attack at 1000' so as not to pass any closer than 500'". No time in 7 years of flying the Hornet have I ever been stopped in a DACT brief when reading these training rules and told that the AF had a 1000 bubble. If that's the case, it's the first I've heard of it. If you look at the aspect and the Vc in the HUD, I will grant you that yes that "fleeing" snap shot is at 800 but they are in no way shape or form near a midair. Further, unless you were in the Raptor, I would venture to say that you don't know what he was doing with respect to his pull much less whether he KIO'd the fight for training rules.

I am not here to throw spears, but there is a fair amount of misinformation being discussed on this forum. We as pointy nose guys all know when we have a pipper on a canopy how fast 1000' turns to 800' in the HUD. Did the Hornet guy press it? Perhaps. Was he wrong in doing so, very much. Both the USAF and USN Fighter and Strike Fighter pilots are the very best at what they do. In the grand scheme of things the photo was probably not meant to showcase how the Hornet can become offensive/defensive or get a snap gun shot on a Raptor and vice versa(because we all know what the BFM capabilities are of each aircraft). It was probably published for a little friendly banter and got out. Unless the balloon goes up with Canada, Switzerland, or Norway I don't think we'll see that footage ever in combat.

Safe flying

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Where does the F16 fall into all this?

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Even a blind squirrel finds an Acorn every now and then.

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I've heard the F-22 refered to as "DEATHBLOSSOM".....

It can engage so many targerts, from beyond visual range, track them, target them, engage them, without anyone knowing it, until it's too late.

Plus, the ability to "SUPER CRUISE" (supersonic with OUT the use of burner) is amazing.

Just hope we don't have too few of them when we need them.

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Outclassed.  The F-16 just hasn't been developed to the same level that the Superhornet is at.

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This information is straight from the mouth of a USMC F-18 pilot who has flown mock air to air exercises against F-22s (not me, a FAC with my last unit).

Basically, there isn't anything that even resembles a fight as the F-22 can shoot the F-18 down before the F-18 can even pick up the Raptor on radar. He said they did the same drill a couple times where they would start 40 or 50 miles apart and each time he was dead before he was even aware of the F-22. Everything is more powerful on the F22 - the engines, the radar, hell even the plane is much larger. He said it only got interesting when they would go guns only. Then the F-18 being smaller, nimbler, and able to turn in smaller circles was able to hold its own, or even outperform the F-22, although he said that is a tricky comparison as pilot skill is much more of a factor when you are dealing strictly with guns.

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The F-22 can turn faster than the F-18, especially at altitude. Not doubting your friend but it's the truth.

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This information is straight from the mouth of a USMC F-18 pilot who has flown mock air to air exercises against F-22s (not me, a FAC with my last unit).

Basically, there isn't anything that even resembles a fight as the F-22 can shoot the F-18 down before the F-18 can even pick up the Raptor on radar. He said they did the same drill a couple times where they would start 40 or 50 miles apart and each time he was dead before he was even aware of the F-22. Everything is more powerful on the F22 - the engines, the radar, hell even the plane is much larger. He said it only got interesting when they would go guns only. Then the F-18 being smaller, nimbler, and able to turn in smaller circles was able to hold its own, or even outperform the F-22, although he said that is a tricky comparison as pilot skill is much more of a factor when you are dealing strictly with guns.

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What I'd like to know is how it compares to the F-35 in terms of RCS, radar capability, cost, etc.

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That's not true, the Block 52+'s will splash superbugs all day long assuming everything else equal. The f-16 is a better dog fighter but still can't compare to the F-18 on A2G. The F-18 is honestly the most capable all weather A2G aircraft we have right now.

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Chairborne, do you have that article about the F-22's excellent performance at a recent training exercise? I think you posted it before and I couldn't find it

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Worn out old single engine play toy.  Can barely get out of it's own way.  Almost enough gas to go across the state.  Can't land on boats more than one time.

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Even a blind squirrel finds an Acorn every now and then.

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Meh!


In a furball my monies on the F/A-18

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The F22 is not the next generation fighter,  it's more like the next 2or3 generations fighter.  That is why it is so damned expensive, and why there is really no fair comparison between it and any current or currently planned jet.

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Nope… It's last years model.


The F-35's systems are a whole generation better.

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I'm not in the Air Force or Navy.  Tell me about these different aircraft.  How are they different?  What roles do they fulfill?

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I'm not in the Air Force or Navy.  Tell me about these different aircraft.  How are they different?  What roles do they fulfill?

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The F-22 was designed from the outset to be easily upgraded as newer processing technology becomes available.  The mission computers are interchangeable and need only a swap of cards to get newer processor tech.  The larger AESA antenna can't be added to the F-35 no matter how much processing tech improves.  The improved conformal antenna array in the F-35 is the only real improvement.  Half the thrust with 2/3 of the weight will always make the Junk Strike Fighter second best, if that.

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This comes up often around here and wikipedia has a lot more of the cold hard facts.

The F-22 is THE BEST air-to-air fighter yet created, its so advanced and thus expensive that we only have 148 of them.

The Superhornet is the workhorse of the Navy and a one plane does most platform.

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It's no match for a well flown F-15E.

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Good post.