www.danasweeney.com/badboys.html

The cliche of “bad boy” appeal has been a point of contention for men and women both for a long time. I have heard men refer to it bitterly as the reason for their romantic disappointments, having been told they are “nice guys” by women who break up with them. (It is time we women stop saying that; we mean it as a consolation, but they are apparently taking it as an
explanation.)

Women, on the other hand, feel uncomfortable with the notion that we fall for bad boys for a variety of reasons: first of all, it is not a conscious choice or preference we form, and we resent the implication that we are drawn to not just “bad boys” as portrayed by Hollywood (who are invariably good guys with better haircuts than the more acceptable suitors or misunderstood loners with hidden depth), but actually bad men, because that
is both insulting and frightening. Insulting for what it says about our perceived decision-making abilities; frightening because we are forced to question at some level whether it is true–we do in truth have the soft spot for “bad boys,” but what if we’re naive to assume the “sensitive loner” type of bad boy even exists? What if that is a myth some men exploit to get close to us, but inside they were bad men all along? And worst of all is the inevitable accusation at the heart of the “bad boy” mythos: does it mean women are masochists, inevitably drawn to pain and cruelty?


This summer, I went to see Batman Begins, twice in fact, and my reaction to one character in the film spurred me to think on this topic at length. Cillian Murphy’s portrayal of Dr. Crane was compellingly sexy, and I was a little embarrassed to admit that to my friends after the show. I knew it was strange for me to watch the villain of the piece and feel so fascinated. It’s not unheard of, far from it, but it made me question myself somewhat. Unable to stop dwelling on the concept of what this might reveal about my psyche, I decided to examine it. On the internet, I sought out photos of the actor, to eliminate if possible the idea that I might simply be responding to his physical appearance. Not so. While he is a handsome man, his pictures were not stirring anything in me…until I happened on a shot of him as Dr. Crane. I looked at it and was struck again by how unsettling it felt to be drawn to the villain so conclusively.

Several years ago, before I met and married Chris, the world was much more mysterious. The thoughts of others seemed incomprehensible to me, their psyches elusive. I remember watching the HBO series Oz at that time, and I remember my intense crush on the character of Ryan O’Reily. He seemed passionate, romantic, intense, clever, and devoted. Sure, he wasn’t perfect; he had rough spots, but I was won over by his “bullshit Irish charm,” as Gloria Nathan, the object of his obsession, put it. And more than that, I was young and naive enough to be unaware of what true darkness lay behind such traits and were revealed by his actions. In all fairness to my younger self, I must add that others of my age as well as much older concurred with me in conversations about the show that Ryan was one of the most romantic characters we’d ever seen.

That probably goes some way toward explaining how I managed to marry a psychopath. It took about 9 months for me to get away from him, because it took far less for me to realize what he was. Not the terminology, that came later, but the concept that he was terrible. Evil, even. It broke my heart in a million different ways, but I could see it. I went over and over the beginning of our relationship in my head, trying to determine what was wrong with me that I couldn’t see the truth back then. The fact is, now I would be able to. Now I would see it a mile away and decline his advances from the start. But then? I had no idea that he was possible then. I was trusting to a fault, and though I’d been screwed over in a number of ways by various people over the years, no one had ever been so intricately involved in my life and so truly evil in intent. Petty, sure; greedy, manipulative, dishonest, you bet. I could handle all that. That was nothing. I didn’t get the concept that a smart, handsome, friendly, average-seeming guy could be legitimately evil. I still thought people mostly “just make mistakes” from time to time, but that the vast majority at least thought they were doing little or no harm.

Having learned otherwise, I was thus even more troubled by my attraction to the villain in the film. It later struck me that it was irrelevant, because I certainly wasn’t attracted to the character if I tried to imagine his existing in reality; I would run from him if he were a real man. I was reacting to the actor’s portrayal, nothing more. It meant only that Cillian Murphy had awesome screen presence and charisma, so yay him.

The Ryan O’Reily thing bothered me more. That was genuinely a case of my being infatuated with a character who was not a good guy in any reasonable sense of the term. I knew how I’d felt about him when I was younger and less experienced…I had to see how I felt about him after all I’d been through.

I was simultaneously saddened and relieved to find that upon reviewing the DVDs of Oz, I recognized that Ryan O’Reily was quite clearly a psychopath and very likely guilty of manipulating situations far more than was ever made clear in the script. His unending and single-minded quest to win Gloria Nathan’s affections despite his undeniable San Andreas-sized faults informed his every breath, I saw upon a repeat viewing. Every move was calculated, every syllable chosen to maximize the effects of the emotional trap being set. He was like a natural predator so perfectly evolved that it dominated without question…like the Great White, Ryan O’Reily was
inescapable and undefeatable from the moment new prey caught his attention.

The reason for the relief I felt is obvious (I assume), so I’ll just clarify the sadness I felt as being caused in part by the regret over my ever having been so blind and idealistic that it made me a bright flashing neon target for bad men. In shamefully straightforward part, though, it is the despondency of a new atheist, the loss of something which was never there but still seemed real enough to leave palpable emptiness in its place once it vaporized. I missed my idealism, my naivete, but more than anything else, I just missed my husband, because he had been such a wonderful dream.

Along the way through this thoughtscape, I came upon the surprising realization of how the “bad boy” cliche actually functions. It’s not a masochistic impulse, nor is it a sign of superficiality. Women choose bad boys for the same reasons as sociobiologists have determined we seek broad shoulders and firm backsides. We are acting instinctually with our first priority being self-preservation and the well-being of any potential offspring.

I realize that sounds backwards on the surface, because of the traditional negativity surrounding the “bad boy” appeal. But let me explain, because it’s very, very simple.

Women assume–strike that–women know that all men are bad. We know that. It is something we fight or deny or try to disprove, at least for a time, but we know it. All men are bad. I don’t mean evil, just bad. (And men have some corresponding assumptions/knowledge about women, but that’s a separate piece still to come.)

If a man is good, so far as we have seen or been able to ascertain, that leaves us a little bit terrified of him. Strange as that may sound, it is not illogical. We have no expectation that he is literally always good; that would be a pathetically foolish belief to hold about any human, male or female. But we all have had the experience of being courted by a man who only shows his good side, only portrays himself in a blameless light, never reveals any negative emotions, et cetera. And this is terrifying! If a man is only showing you the good stuff, the worst thing you can do is make a serious
commitment to him, because then it will be too late to get away easily when his bad side is exposed.

A man who is never bad in any way is either hiding something, or possibly still in a stage of development and has not manifested his less pleasant traits yet. But we know there is (or will be) something there. It’s scary to have that hanging over us, to wait and see what alternate persona may suddenly emerge from the man we thought we knew. Most often, it’s not anything
life-endangering or unforgivable, of course. Most of the time it turns out he likes gambling or smokes pot with his buddies or indulges in auto-erotic asphyxiation while you’re out shopping. But those notions are not the point; nor is the point the worst-case scenario possibility.

The point is the difference between the “nice guy” and the “bad boy.” With the “bad boys,” we feel safer, because they aren’t hiding their bad sides from us. We may or may not be safe with the guy who seems all good, but we know what we’re getting into with the bad boy. He’s not a jack-in-the-box we’ll be cranking the handle on nervously for years, hoping nothing ever
pops out. We can see what we’ll be dealing with already, and we can make the decision whether it’s more than we want to accept in a partner. We know all men have bad in them; it’s the ones who don’t seem to be ashamed of their badness who make the most attractive mates, because they won’t be as likely to take out their shame and self-loathing and conflicted desires on us, or to hide their true selves from us and wind up resentful toward us for the false personas they have to keep up, or to be unforgiving of our quirks and missteps because they so ruthlessly police their own.

Another delightful aspect of the bad boy is the inherent loyalty perceptible in their apparent lack of concern over how likable they may or may not be to just about everyone else in the world besides their girl. The men who go out of their way to charm and please everyone they meet are just as likely to be charming the pants off some of the other people they meet when your back is turned. There is something comforting about knowing your man isn’t bothering to win over anyone but you.

Bad boys are often good men, and even when they’re really really not!, at least we are given the opportunity to see that before it’s too late. And since it’s a point worth stressing, I’m going to close with something mentioned at the very beginning: we women owe it to our collective sanity to stop using the statement, “You are really such a nice guy,” to make men feel less
rejected while we reject them. It’s a lame fallback line, and we’re trying to be nice and make things go more smoothly, but they’ve been taking us to mean that we don’t like guys who are nice, and that’s just simply not true.

We love nice guys, as long as they are actually nice, but hey, that doesn’t mean we want to be involved with every nice guy we ever meet, or stay involved with all of them. We break up with nice guys because we don’t
have intense enough feelings toward them to want to date them. Sure it hurts, but we get dumped too, and we don’t determine that men are biased against nice women who care for them! We accept the hit to our pride and acknowledge the far more rational notion that they like us but found us less pretty than someone else, or less interested in their particular hobbies, or less sexually compatible, or what-the-hell-ever! Nice guys don’t get rejected for being nice. Nice isn’t a synonym for dull, and bad boys don’t get attention for their “enigmatic” quality, at least not past adolescence. Bad boys are the least enigmatic men we can imagine, and therein lies the appeal.

In real life, at least, that’s the case. In the fantasy world of Hollywood, it’s usually just a bloody sexy actor.



It defintely makes sense...in a way.

So bad boys are appealling because at least you know what you're getting?

What feminine lunacy. I hope she didn't spend too much time self-analyzing. She's not very good at it.

Women assume–strike that–women know that all men are bad.

Here lies her fault. She (probably like alot of women) distrusts her own judgement, her experience has taught her that men at their root are shitbags, because the nice guys she has known turned out that way. So, rather than date a nice man and wait for him to blossom, she appeals straight to the shitbag? Good thinking, sister.

What she's really saying is that her impulses are probably ALWAYS pointed towards bad men, but she is being fooled at times by men who put on a shiny veneer. And, because she can't figure out genuine goodness from a slick operator, she gives up. Incapable of sussing out who is good for her, it's now that all men are bad, she's not taking responsiblity for her own attractions.

It takes GUTS and SMARTS to overcome your natural attractions, especially when they don't always guide you toward what's good for you. That's a human dilemna, not just women's curse. So, why is it important to find a good mate and stick it out? Because it's worth it, it's healthy in the long run, and your efforts help not only yourself but the man you've chosen to be a better person. Dwelling on, lusting for, or worse hooking up with a bad boy is bad for you. It will always be bad for you, because he's a crappy person. Justify it with feminine mind-games, but it's just bad choices.

But, hey, if it's easier to say "Well, all men are turds" and keep abusing yourself (even in fantasy), then knock yourself out. If all men are bad, so are women...and I can't feel sorry for them if they fall prey to their own silly devices.

Quoted: folk.ntnu.no/andreab/bilder/bullshit.jpg etc.,etc.,etc.

+eleventybillion

ETA - Just to clarify Swingset hit it right on the head.


sst7

Quoted: Bad boys are exciting. Nice guys aren't. Is it really any more complex than that?

Is that really an excuse to set themselves up for getting hurt?

Not all of us are like that. I always went for the nice guys when I was dating, and later married one. Go figure. I joked that I married him because he made me laugh. He still does. 22 years later.

Women who go for "bad boys" are just immature and / or emotionally maladjusted people.

All the healthy, well-adjusted women I've ever dated wanted a strong, smart, funny *good* guy.

So the moral of the astory is find a healthy mature woman and be happy.

Here's a question for you men...what do YOU consider a BAD BOY?

Give me some examples.    Is your idea of a bad boy someone who runs around with other women, out every night?  Someone who beats on his sig/other?  Someone who is into drugs/illegal activities?
What???

I'm not being Naive..I really want to know what you're classifying as a "bad boy".

Quoted: I really want to know what you're classifying as a "bad boy".

Bad is the opposite of good.

Seriously, it can be as simple as someone who's taken, who's unavailable emotionally....and obviously men with bad habits, someone who represents risk or trouble, or just someone who treats women like crap.

I consider the "bad boy" to be any man who inspires you to make bad choices....because to some women I would be a bad boy. To most, however, I'm a choir boy (albeit a porn addict choir boy). It's all relative.

Quoted: Women who go for "bad boys" are just immature and / or emotionally maladjusted people. All the healthy, well-adjusted women I've ever dated wanted a strong, smart, funny *good* guy. So the moral of the astory is find a healthy mature woman and be happy.

New Hampshire, huh?  Not too far away....

Quoted: Quoted: I really want to know what you're classifying as a "bad boy". Bad is the opposite of good. Seriously, it can be as simple as someone who's taken, who's unavailable emotionally....and obviously men with bad habits, someone who represents risk or trouble, or just someone who treats women like crap. I consider the "bad boy" to be any man who inspires you to make bad choices....because to some women I would be a bad boy. To most, however, I'm a choir boy (albeit a porn addict choir boy). It's all relative.

Agreed.
It is all relative.
At my university, I am about as bad boy as it gets.
Am I a bad boy - not particularly.
Do girls here consider me such - you betcha - and I milk that for every drop it's worth.

Here's the condensed version:

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and finally, blah.

JHC, trust a woman to over think this stuff in the extreme.

Quoted: Here's the condensed version: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and finally, blah. JHC, trust a woman to over think this stuff in the extreme.

Sorry...did we invite you in here?

The door's over there ----> .  Don't let it hit you on the arse on the way out.

Sorry..as a woman, I overthink stuff like your remarks.

It's very simple.  Women prefer assholes.  I don't know WHY this is, nor do I particularly care...but speaking as an asshole, it works for me.

Quoted: It's very simple.  Women prefer assholes.  I don't know WHY this is, nor do I particularly care...but speaking as an asshole, it works for me.

So, are you an asshole so you'll get laid?   or are you just an asshole in general?

Quoted: Quoted: It's very simple.  Women prefer assholes.  I don't know WHY this is, nor do I particularly care...but speaking as an asshole, it works for me. So, are you an asshole so you'll get laid?   or are you just an asshole in general?

No, I'm just an asshole - I let the chips fall where they may on the rest of it

Quoted: If women did indeed be enthralled by dangerous men, they wouldn't mind living in a trailor wearing a tube top. Yes, I like Jeff Foxworthy.

Speaking of trailor's...anyone see the TV Show "My name is Earl" last night?

very funny.  I'd never seen it before...

my new sig line...

"Darryl!  You had better look at my boobs when I'm talking about them!"

Having had an innate repulsion for punks/badboys/juvenile jerks for my entire life, I find this debate SUH-ILLY.  That said, they don't care for me either.  Just a general repulse.

[ETA:  cut ]

To generalize that all women seek out the "bad boy" is BS. I've known some that do, and some that don't. Depends on the woman's emotional maturity and stability.

There are also men who seek out the same loopy women over and over, and some who don't.

There are also men who seek out the same loopy women over and over, and some who don't.

ain't that the truth

I'm sorry, but if a woman used the "your a nice guy, etc" routine on me, I'd run far far away.  She's not worth it.  Her priorities are not set right, and she's going to have a life of pain and agony.  Her view of males is skewed probably because she had a male abuser or something along those lines and assumes that all males are "evil" at heart.  Akin to the "bad boy" are the floozy/high maintance woman.  Neithor are good for their partiners, they leech every bit of goodness out of their partiners.  While I have no problem with who a particular woman dates...I do have a problem when she only dates "bad boys" and gets burnt by them, then declares that all of malekind are asshats because she only dated asshats.  She never gave the rest of the population a shot.  

So....date the bad boy.......but please don't group your experiences with those boys with actual men, I will take any insults that begin with "all men are..................." personally, as I am in the "all men" group, but I do not belong to the "bad boy" aka "abusive asshat" category.  Your a free person, but remember, choices have consequences....some more lasting than others.

Wasn't really a post about sweeping generalizations about women.  If you consider what I wrote and think about the actual message behind it.......it's about making and accepting the consequences of decisions that you make.  Guys are guilty of the same thing......but the thread wasn't about "bad women" so I figured I would attempt not to hijack it.  Also...if you want to spank me..just let me know when and where.......I like it.

Not this again!  This subject has been "discussed"  so many times on here and it's always the same old crap being said.

Quoted: Not this again!  This subject has been "discussed"  so many times on here and it's always the same old crap being said.

Thank you for your contribution to the thread. Don't forget to have a mint on your way out, thanks for coming, bye bye.

That article sounds like one big rationalization for making bad choices.  

I've always liked nice guys.  That whole bad boy thing is a big turnoff to me.

ETA:  Some men will make the same kinds of bad choices in the women that choose also; they say the same sorts of things, i.e. all women are evil.

Quoted: I've always liked nice guys.  That whole bad boy thing is a big turnoff to me.

Some guys around my age... equate being "nice" to being a pushover.

Doing things she always wants..kissing her ass all the time etc.

Its that.. what turns them into "bad" guys... as its their only way of getting laid/getting a relationship.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Bad boys are exciting. Nice guys aren't. Is it really any more complex than that? Is that really an excuse to set themselves up for getting hurt? Heck if I know. I try not to think deeply about what motivates women and why.  It just makes my head hurt. Perfect case: I've known a woman for about 8 years, who has been scared of guns to the point of being almost fanatic about it. If she had any political mind at all, she'd be a Brady Bunch member. I've been trying to get her to relax a bit from day one. She hasn't budged an inch.  A year or so ago, the ever lovely Sigziggy photographed me in the sitting position shooting my FAL. When my acquaintance saw it, she said that she found the visual intensely sexy, and so did her body. I was suddenly the baddest of the bad, and she liked it, despite her total paralyzing terror of the SAME! I guess women aren't supposed to make sense, ESPECIALLY to themselves. I would like to hijack this thread and say that I want to see the pic of DF and the FAL.

Me too.

Oh, and one more thing...

Did ya get lucky?  

Quoted: Quoted: I've always liked nice guys.  That whole bad boy thing is a big turnoff to me. Some guys around my age... equate being "nice" to being a pushover. Doing things she always wants..kissing her ass all the time etc. Its that.. what turns them into "bad" guys... as its their only way of getting laid/getting a relationship.

I'm not sure what your age is, I guess young, but I equate being a nice guy as someone who respects me, someone that I respect as well.  A relationship should be a partnership with neither person being expected to be a "pushover."

I call

Right down to every man and woman's primal instinct is the desire to mate, it is nature.  When selecting a mate in nature the Alpha male is the one that is desired.  The Alpha male isn't neccessarily the biggest or the strongest, of anything.  Being an asshole or bad boy doesn't get you any further than being the nice guy or the dork.  What gets you there is exactly what it takes to get you to the top of the pack, that is Self Confidence, women deep down want a man, that is comfortable with himself and that can provide for himself and his family "the proverbial Alpha male so to speak".   Most Bad Boys have confidence and that is why most women are attracted to the "Bad Boy",  a nice guy can drive a woman wild if he is confident and comfortable with himself and doesn't try to hard.  Bad boys aren't the only ones who are the leaders of the pack the nice guy can be as well however in a more subtle way.  As a matter of fact, an ambitious, self-confident, comfortable nice guy will get farther than any bad boy could ever hope.  


And one more thing guys need to stop whining there is nothing worse out there that will annoy any new chick than a guy whining about how girls don't like the nice guys.  


Ohh and ladies sorry for the generalizations in your forum

I usually end up on the friends ladder cause I am a nice guy. The funny thing is, of ALL the young men I know, I am probably the most dangerous....but I also have much more self control, so I am perceived as being submissive.

Life is like a box of chocolates..........

Some people are just really good at hiding who they really are, until after all the emotional papers are signed.

In my experience, the badder the "bad boy", the less self confidence he has.  
Male or female, if you can't be real, your worthless.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've always liked nice guys.  That whole bad boy thing is a big turnoff to me. Some guys around my age... equate being "nice" to being a pushover. Doing things she always wants..kissing her ass all the time etc. Its that.. what turns them into "bad" guys... as its their only way of getting laid/getting a relationship. I'm not sure what your age is, I guess young, but I equate being a nice guy as someone who respects me, someone that I respect as well.  A relationship should be a partnership with neither person being expected to be a "pushover."

I agree 100%.

21 btw.

Quoted: I call Right down to every man and woman's primal instinct is the desire to mate, it is nature.  When selecting a mate in nature the Alpha male is the one that is desired.  The Alpha male isn't neccessarily the biggest or the strongest, of anything.  Being an asshole or bad boy doesn't get you any further than being the nice guy or the dork.  What gets you there is exactly what it takes to get you to the top of the pack, that is Self Confidence, women deep down want a man, that is comfortable with himself and that can provide for himself and his family "the proverbial Alpha male so to speak".   Most Bad Boys have confidence and that is why most women are attracted to the "Bad Boy",  a nice guy can drive a woman wild if he is confident and comfortable with himself and doesn't try to hard.  Bad boys aren't the only ones who are the leaders of the pack the nice guy can be as well however in a more subtle way.  As a matter of fact, an ambitious, self-confident, comfortable nice guy will get farther than any bad boy could ever hope.   And one more thing guys need to stop whining there is nothing worse out there that will annoy any new chick than a guy whining about how girls don't like the nice guys.   Ohh and ladies sorry for the generalizations in your forum

Just to comment.... I know I am young (and lacking years of experience..) however, I'd like to take a shot at it.

I'd agree its a human nature thing. However, some women percieve nice guys.. as too pussy. Why? Because they treat them with respect.. they don't equate that to actually being a confident guy.

I've known nice guys.. to be doormats. They would do anything for their SO... either the reward is sex, or just being in the relationship with the woman.

Frankly, I think it has to be a balance. Be nice, respectful etc.. but put your foot down when needed.

Confidence I believe.. is one of the keys to gaining any type of decent girl. No one wants a self-wallowing pitty person.. unless they're looking to give sympathy sex.

Quoted: Quoted: I call Right down to every man and woman's primal instinct is the desire to mate, it is nature.  When selecting a mate in nature the Alpha male is the one that is desired.  The Alpha male isn't neccessarily the biggest or the strongest, of anything.  Being an asshole or bad boy doesn't get you any further than being the nice guy or the dork.  What gets you there is exactly what it takes to get you to the top of the pack, that is Self Confidence, women deep down want a man, that is comfortable with himself and that can provide for himself and his family "the proverbial Alpha male so to speak".   Most Bad Boys have confidence and that is why most women are attracted to the "Bad Boy",  a nice guy can drive a woman wild if he is confident and comfortable with himself and doesn't try to hard.  Bad boys aren't the only ones who are the leaders of the pack the nice guy can be as well however in a more subtle way.  As a matter of fact, an ambitious, self-confident, comfortable nice guy will get farther than any bad boy could ever hope.   And one more thing guys need to stop whining there is nothing worse out there that will annoy any new chick than a guy whining about how girls don't like the nice guys.   Ohh and ladies sorry for the generalizations in your forum Just to comment.... I know I am young (and lacking years of experience..) however, I'd like to take a shot at it. I'd agree its a human nature thing. However, some women percieve nice guys.. as too pussy. Why? Because they treat them with respect.. they don't equate that to actually being a confident guy. I've known nice guys.. to be doormats. They would do anything for their SO... either the reward is sex, or just being in the relationship with the woman. Frankly, I think it has to be a balance. Be nice, respectful etc.. but put your foot down when needed. Confidence I believe.. is one of the keys to gaining any type of decent girl. No one wants a self-wallowing pitty person.. unless they're looking to give sympathy sex.

A self-respecting confident guy is not a pushover

Quoted: A self-respecting confident guy is not a pushover

I kept this around for awhile.. you tell me what you think:


1.) THE NICE GUY: Any man who exibits any combination of the following behaviors,

a.) Low self-esteem; doesn't value himself highly. Might be out of past failures or other deep-rooted emotional issues
b.) Constantly seeks approval/validation/attention from others, usually out of a low amount of self-worth (See a.)
c.) Insecure; doesn't feel that a high quality person should like him (See a. so is constantly fearful that he will lose them
d.) Controlling/posessive/domineering/clingy/suffocating behavior; overcalling, etc.. (See c.)
e.) Idealizes potential mates (overlooks flaws AKA "Puts them on a pedastal") as well as relationships (invests large amounts of emotion/time/energy/money into relationships early on)
f.) Doesn't take responsibility for his actions
g.) Claims he's victimized; attributes his own flaws and shortcomings to external circumstances and/or other people (See f.)
h.) Self-concious/nervous around attrative women; Cares what others think, doesn't want anyone to dissaprove of him (See b.)
i.) Strong amounts of jealously (See d.); makes people feel guilty when they enjoy time WITHOUT him
k.) Kisses-up/trys to be totally agreeable/submissive to try and "score points" with a woman
l.) Doesn't lead; he's submissive, always wants to make sure EVERYTHING he's doing is okay with her; over-apologetic
m.) Doesn't draw boundaries; gives women whatever they want in return for love/sex/approval; accepts second-class behavior for the possible reward of the aforementioned. Doesn't say "No" very often; doesnt want to cause any "waves" (See h.)
n.) Poor/weak body language; little or no eye contact, leans foward out of nervousness, fast/jerky movements, nervous ticks/figety habits, hands in pockets, bad posture/doesn't stand up straight
o.) Is easily emotionally destabilized; gets worked up over meaningless things
p.) Common use of self-deprecating humor to get approval/pity/empathy (See b.)
q.) Feels guilt for his natural sexual desires, maybe even LOOKING an a woman
r.) Whines/complains; usually to get pity/empathy
s.) Favors short-sighted/instant gratification thinking

The "nice-guy" is the personification of attributes in a man that women ultimately DO NOT feel attraction for.

Any man who wants to have genuine sucess with women should AVOID these at all costs

Women all around the globe, despite different backgrounds and upbringing, generally respond the same way to this type of man.

Nice-guys almost always act victimized and attribute their lack of sucess to outside factors they claim are out of their control. They think that it's not their fault (I.E "SHE'S IMMATURE FOR LIKING BAD BOYS" "SHE DOESNT RECOGNIZE GOOD GUYS WHEN SHE SEES THEM" "SHE HAS ISSUES" Sound familiar?). Many nice-guys harbor a [secret] belief that they're better than other men ("I bought her 20 roses on the 2nd date" "I waited in the rain for her for 3 hours" "I lent her money when she went over her credit card limit). However, the reality is that if you're doing something [NICE] to get something in return, you are being MANIPULATIVE. Nice guys will go through their entire lives living in a continual state of self-deception; convinced that they are "Good guys" and that they are better than others.

The fact of the matter is that nice guys do not have traits that make them appealing/attractive to the opposite sex.

The lack everything in a man that practically every woman wants. And that man is...

2.) THE REAL MAN: Any man who exibits any combination of the following behaviors.

a.) Has a HIGH amount of self-esteem; views himself as high-status
b.) Doesnt need any outside approval or attention from ANYONE to be happy
c.) Unself-concious; doesnt care what others thinks of him
d.) Is NEVER insecure or nervous (espcially around desireable women), and he sub-communicates this in every little way
e.) Self-confident; NEVER arrogant or insecure, POSSIBLY slightly-cocky. May tease women in a friendly way
f.) Does not let outside events/other peoples opinions (See c.) emotionally destabilize him; is always in control of his emotions
g.) Takes full responsibility for all of his actions
h.) Never whines or complains to get approval or empathy; always accepts the world for exactly what it is
i.) Judges people based on character and personality.. NOT outward appearance/material items
j.) Can be brutally honest (while still being respectful) with everyone(including himself) and is not afraid to put someone in their place when they are out of line; isn't afraid to speak his mind
k.) Isn't afraid to draw boundaries
l.) Mature.. in every sense of the word
m.) Has a PURPOSE in life that he never betrays and pro-actively/ambitiously works towards
n.) Goal-oriented thinker; favors long-term gratification over short (See l.)
o.) Isn't afraid to lead and take control of a situation; doesnt have hesitancy moving foward
p.) Never feels ashamed for his sexual desires & needs; always sexually confident
q.) Is always "himself", and is content with whatever that is (See a.)
r.) Doesn't tolerate disrespect to himself, his property, or his time
s.) Doesn't let women use their sexual power to get anything (whether it be money, or self-respect) from him
t.) Loyal
u.) Compassionate
v.) Independant
w.) Is perfectly happy and fufilled being single; sure, he'd like to find an attractive/beautiful/intelligent woman to spend time with but he doesnt NEED it
x.) Comfortable in the presence of other high-status and/or sophisticated people
y.) Doesnt experience jealousy; is perfectly fine when a woman exersizes her independence and encourages it; enjoys it when others shine
z.) Strong/confident/powerful body language (Stands up straight, doesnt break eye contact, doesnt have any nervous ticks, doesnt have quick/jerky movements, leans back out of self-confidence and lack of nervousness)
a1.) Doesn't feel the need to compensate for himself through gifts, expensive restaurants (Doing either of these things from a place of confidence and high-value is on the other hand OKAY)
a2.) DOESNT invest all his emotion/time into a relationship too early on. He remains an ambiguous challenge


Perhaps.. your version of the "nice guy" is really just the "good" guy?

Quoted: So bad boys are appealling because at least you know what you're getting?

This is truer than you realize.  And sometimes, than women realize.  

Holy long post Batman!!!

isnt it strange that the alleged "bad boys" never complain about this issue?

Quoted: I call Right down to every man and woman's primal instinct is the desire to mate, it is nature.  When selecting a mate in nature the Alpha male is the one that is desired.  The Alpha male isn't neccessarily the biggest or the strongest, of anything.  Being an asshole or bad boy doesn't get you any further than being the nice guy or the dork.  What gets you there is exactly what it takes to get you to the top of the pack, that is Self Confidence, women deep down want a man, that is comfortable with himself and that can provide for himself and his family "the proverbial Alpha male so to speak".   Most Bad Boys have confidence and that is why most women are attracted to the "Bad Boy",  a nice guy can drive a woman wild if he is confident and comfortable with himself and doesn't try to hard.  Bad boys aren't the only ones who are the leaders of the pack the nice guy can be as well however in a more subtle way.  As a matter of fact, an ambitious, self-confident, comfortable nice guy will get farther than any bad boy could ever hope.   And one more thing guys need to stop whining there is nothing worse out there that will annoy any new chick than a guy whining about how girls don't like the nice guys.   Ohh and ladies sorry for the generalizations in your forum

DING DING DING!!!  It's really annoying to hear it all the time.  Pony up and get some balls, then!  And no, I don't go for the "bad boys".  I go for guys that are confidant, can give me a run for my money, and have outside interests besides me.  There's nothing worse than being "everything" to a guy.  I've been there.  It's exhausting to be his entire world and his entertainment director.  

Quoted: DING DING DING!!!  It's really annoying to hear it all the time.  Pony up and get some balls, then!  And no, I don't go for the "bad boys".  I go for guys that are confidant, can give me a run for my money, and have outside interests besides me.  There's nothing worse than being "everything" to a guy.  I've been there.  It's exhausting to be his entire world and his entertainment director.

AS in.. playing hard to get, or something else?

Quoted: Quoted: DING DING DING!!!  It's really annoying to hear it all the time.  Pony up and get some balls, then!  And no, I don't go for the "bad boys".  I go for guys that are confidant, can give me a run for my money, and have outside interests besides me.  There's nothing worse than being "everything" to a guy.  I've been there.  It's exhausting to be his entire world and his entertainment director.   AS in.. playing hard to get, or something else?

No, that's an immature game.  Banter back and forth, interesting conversations, having opinions that differ, and debating.  Sometimes you try so hard to please your partner that you wind up giving in on your convictions, especially women.  We've been programmed to please our partner, and agree with whatever the man says, as he is the supreme provider and knows best.  Well, that's just bullshit.  I have opinions, I keep up with current events, I can hold up my side of a conversation and debate my platforms.
Women that just go along with whatever their MAN thinks are just puppets.

And men that want a woman like that don't want a partner.  They want a blow up doll that can cook.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: DING DING DING!!!  It's really annoying to hear it all the time.  Pony up and get some balls, then!  And no, I don't go for the "bad boys".  I go for guys that are confidant, can give me a run for my money, and have outside interests besides me.  There's nothing worse than being "everything" to a guy.  I've been there.  It's exhausting to be his entire world and his entertainment director.   AS in.. playing hard to get, or something else? No, that's an immature game.  Banter back and forth, interesting conversations, having opinions that differ, and debating.  Sometimes you try so hard to please your partner that you wind up giving in on your convictions, especially women.  We've been programmed to please our partner, and agree with whatever the man says, as he is the supreme provider and knows best.  Well, that's just bullshit.  I have opinions, I keep up with current events, I can hold up my side of a conversation and debate my platforms. Women that just go along with whatever their MAN thinks are just puppets. And men that want a woman like that don't want a partner.  They want a blow up doll that can cook.

So freaken well said!!!!!