PLEASE NOTE: I did a survey in THIS forum, and a significant number of homesteaders VOTED FOR A LAWN CARE THREAD THAT WAS SEPERATE FROM THE LANDSCAPING THREAD.  That was not my choice. I would have included it in the landscape thread.  But I would rather do what works best for the members here.  So if you don't want a nice lawn, and/or think it shouldn't be important to others, just move along.  This is not your thread, kay?

IMPORTANT:

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GROWING GRASS TO ASK QUESTIONS HERE.

If you have a great lawn and want a little help to make it even better? Ask.
If you have bare dirt and want to grow a lawn....ask.
If you have mostly weeds and want more grass...ask.
If you don't know the difference between johnsongrass and fescue....ask.

That's what this thread is for.


Please NOTE:
I grow Fescue and sometimes KY Bluegrass--  So...COOL SEASON GRASS.

I grow mostly Turf Type Tall Fescue.  (And sometimes, but not usually, KY31 tall fescue).  

I do not grow Bluegrass by choice, but I CAN grow it.  And I appreciate it, and understand where it should be grown.


I do NOT grow warm season grasses EVER.  I KILL warm season grasses because for me, they are weeds. HOWEVER....   Some of you have warm season grass as your lawn.  I know a bit about Bermuda.  BUT HOPEFULLY there will be somebody on the forum who does know how to take care of the more obscure warm season grasses like St. Aug and Centipede.  (We will talk about the difference between warm season and cool season grasses in this thread.)

I will learn what I can about the weird warm season grasses, but mostly, I will refer you to other people.

Cuz...I am aware of what I do not know.

With that said..

Ask.

I will attempt to answer, and I hope you will bump when I am AWOL...cuz...you have to know I love y'all, but...real life sometimes happens.

Ask.

~Kitties

I don't.  Most sod that I'm aware of is fescue, with a little bluegrass mixed in just to knit it together.   I don't know of anyone who grows straight bluegrass, and certainly not the provista.

Is your yard truly that bad?  I would just kill the spots with the weedy grasses, and sow seed there, plus overseed.

I would do that with a fescue though, not a bluegrass.  If you LOVE bluegrass, there are a number of very good bluegrass seeds available (you want a blend of three or more varieties).   Bluegrass is very expensive (fescue is too right now) but it's worth spending the money on good seed.


ETA:  Be AWARE that if you put prodiamine down on your entire lawn, you will need to break up the pre-emergent barrier EVERYWHERE EVEN IF YOU LAY SOD.

Prodiamine works by root pruning.  It stops the radicle (first seed root that emerges during germination) from growing almost as soon as it emerges.  This effect is active against newly laid sod, as well.   So in your case, if you're going to resod the entire yard, (or reseed the entire yard) you need to either wait, or cultivate the entire thing.

I would spot kill, cultivate those spots, and spot seed, then overseed once the pre-emergent has worn off.

Bluegrass is gorgeous.  I think fescue is just as pretty, but the fine blades on the bluegrass are like nothing else.  That said, with bluegrass, you need to be overseeding annually no matter what.

We are just plain too hot, too long,  in the summer for bluegrass to be ideally suited.   Same with TTTF.   It's an ornamental that has to be coaxed through the summers in Kentucky, but it actually is more resilient than bluegrass IMO.  NOW....that is not always true when you have an older, established lawn.  But starting new, I would say to anyone that you need to plan to overseed for the first few years at least.

Bumping this thread.  

then this is not the thread for you.

It's actually completely wrongheaded to think that lawns are not useful.  If somebody doesn't want a lawn, or doesn't want to fool with a lawn, that's fine. But they have a lot of benefits, and in fact the benefits outweigh the negative factors.  

Negatives of cultivated lawns:

*they take time/work
*They require some weed control which is often synthetic pesticides
*They require water


Positives of cultivated lawns:

*they take time/work   This is an intangible benefit to many, as it's their way to get out of the house, away from the spouse and others, and spend time outside.  Rewarding hobby to see the beauty.  On the other hand, you can involve kids if that's your thing.  

*They make more oxygen and fix more CO2 than most native plants/weedy coverings because the blade count is far denser, and the growth rate is faster.
*They cool the soil (by 30 degrees as compared to asphalt or hard surface (including ornamental rock), and by 14 degrees compared to bare ground)  (They actually reduce home cooling costs by keeping the environment around the structure cooler)

*They have extensive root systems, which hold soil in place and prevent erosion.  There is no better soil holder than grasses.  Without soil, we all die.

*They hold WATER in place, preventing runoff, which carries pollutants with it.

*The roots are an environmental filter.  They remove contaminants that would otherwise filter into ground water.  To me the soil erosion component and this one are two of the most important.

*Grass absorbs particulates that are considered pollutants.  Grass absorbs atmospheric pollutants including sulfur dioxide and ozone.

*Grass is a great play surface for kids. Soft and surprisingly resilient

*Grass is habitat--it is a space where birds and small animals can search for food

*A well-tended lawn is a beautiful frame for a property.  This is, of course, subjective.

*Grass builds topsoil better than any other plant. This may be the most important of all, because the sun and topsoil, are life.  Without either, we die.

Bumping this.

Tis the season to begin pre-emergent herbicide, and late winter fertilizers.

If you are doing pre-emergent, I suggest prodiamine.  Spray is better than granular (in MY opinion), but granular is okay too.

It is ALWAYS better to stop weeds from germinating, than to try to kill them afterward.

If you are on a pre-emergent program, and you are in zone 6 or south of that, you want to think about a broadleaf herbicide that will take out winter weeds (that will be appearing now through mid-spring) in your lawn.  They are THERE...coming up, too small to see...in your lawn (unless you did a fall pre-emergent.)    So the way to take those out, is at the sign of the VERY FIRST WEED, you do a blanket spray of broadleaf weed control.  

But MOST important, is the pre-emergent.  

Anybody who is interested is welcome to ask questions.

When did you put down the prodiamine?

Yes if you were caught in that deluge I saw on the news that was happening in California, that's exactly what happened.

No chem (no pre-emergent available to us) can stand up to that.

HOWEVER, there are reports of Poa annua becoming perennial in some areas. That's bad news.  I doubt that's what is happening for you, and even if it is, that doesn't mean we should not try to stop it.

I would try again.  In particular, put down a treatment NOW if you can...the rule is before the soil warms to 55 degrees, but I have no idea whether yours ever gets that cold.   I would put down a half rate, and do another half rate late in spring, before it gets to 70 again.  

You know enough that I think you understand what I'm saying, but if I've confused you (or anyone else) please ask.

ETA:  You DO want to hit it BEFORE the 70 degree mark if you can.  But still...I am guessing it is the deluge of rain that washed the chem out of the soil profile.

For y'all who have warm-season turf, Lawn Care Nut (Allyn Hayne) just put out a video on scalping for the homeowner.

You DO need to scalp your grass.  I like it shorter than what he cut it here with his mower (which he acknowledges is not as low as he'd like to go), but your mower may only go down to an inch, and if so, that's fine.  Just get the green off.  The lower the better, as long as you're not churning up dirt.

@FBATFE

sorry I'm just now seeing this.  Been offline a lot lately due to work and a health issue.

You probably have a moisture problem in that front yard.

Tell me what the drainage is like on your property?

I saw that weird weather for you.  Watching Ryan Hall Y'all on youtube today while I try to get some things done.

Won't bother the pre-emergent unless you get a goose drowner like the ones you had this past winter.  

Will be interested to see what happens.

You do know that your pre won't touch any perennial or biennial weeds (on their second season) right?

So we all normally have to put down some kind of broadleaf and/or grassy weed killers because of those--at least at first.  I'm guessing it's your back field that would have the issues, since you had your front pretty much looking awesome.

Looking really good.  I should be putting down pre, but it's freaking WINDY here like crazy.  I may miss my window, which means I'll be doing a lot of extra work for customers this year.  

Working around the weather this season so far has not been fun.

@7  

What is your grass type?

Are you cool season (fescue, bluegrass, etc)  or warm season (Bermuda and its ilk?)

Okay absolutely DO NOT USE IMAGE.

Image will damage fescue. It is for warm season lawns only.  eta: I put your weed issue together with another poster's moss issue. I apologize.  Lemme edit this.

Okay let's try this again.

So..no. Don't use image.

No idea of your budget, or what weeds are growing in the lawn.   Do you know weeds?

Can you take photos?

I can recommend some EXCELLENT herbicides for your lawn.  But depending on what you have, I'd hate for you to spend money and the product not address your weeds.

Why Do I Have Moss?

Since we have two posters talking about moss, let's talk about moss.

You have moss PROBABLY because you have too much shade and too much moisture.  Spring is a wet time, so if you're gonna get moss, that's when it's likely to start.  Especially because in the east we've had a warm, wet winter.

Moisture:

Moss likes moist soil.  If you have a year-round problem with moss, you've probably got moist soil.

Sunlight:

Turfgrass needs hours of sunlight per day.  Moss doesn't.  So...if you have shade, the moss likes that. The turfgrass doesn't.

If you have shade AND moisture...that's perfect for moss.

HOWEVER if you have good sunlight, and you have some moss in the spring in patches, that'll probably just die when it heats up and dries out.  Thicken the turfgrass with good turf care practices, and the moss will diminish.  

HELP I HAVE MOSS and lots of shade

USUALLY......The trouble you are having is that you don't have a good stand of turfgrass under those trees.  And that's because you have shade, and I still suggest that you likely have a moisture issue.  I think that part of the lawn may not be draining as well as it otherwise would.  

So we need to talk about what you want.....

IMPORTANT: Can you kill the moss?  Yes.  But can you get grass to grow in heavy shade?  No. You cannot ever get grass to grow and THRIVE in heavy shade.   Grass needs several hours of full sunlight per day to do well.   So don't kill the moss until you have a plan to cover the bare ground.  Cuz bare ground is bad.

The "dense shade" stuff on the Scott's bag?  That's a lie.  It's a very successful lie, and it has made them a lot of money.  But....it is still a lie.  


NOW...could I come to your house once per month and work all the magic I have in my arsenal, and get grass to grow under those trees?  Maybe.  But it would be insanely expensive and I would not guarantee it ever. I would be reseeding that area every year, and maybe more than once per year.  Could you do the same if I told you how?  Maybe, but I don't know any homeowner who wants to buy all that stuff and work that hard.  AND...maybe still have it not work.  I have successfully grown grass under trees.  It was not thick. It was not strong. But it was grass. And it was like caring for a newborn. It required insanely intense, constant attention.  I do not recommend it.

1-I would never cut trees for the sake of grass.  It's not a good trade and will take value away from your property.  Nobody buying a home asks the realtor for "a great stand of grass." But a lot of people ask for mature trees.  Grass can be grown in a year or two.  Trees take a lifetime.  No comparison.

2-If trees are, say, around the perimeter, the ideal would be to create large naturalized areas that are mulched, around the trees, and not try to get grass to grow there.  Because the trees are around the perimeter of the property (in this scenario) THIS  would probably take your landscape to the next level of awesome, to have a nicely curving mulch bed around the trees, with gorgeous turf growing up to it. This would be a direct opposite to point 1 above, and would actually add value to your property.  Get mulch that is the largest chunks you can--like pine bark nuggets--and it will last a lot longer.  Shredded mulch deteriorates very quickly in our high humidity.  Weed control in those kinds of mulched areas is a cakewalk.

3-You can have a professional arborist thin the trees, and/or limb them up a little, to allow more light to get to the ground. DO NOT TOP THE TREES.  NEVER TOP.  (That's all caps because it's so important.  Topping trees is not ever a solution.  Not ever.  It would be better to just cut them down.)  But a pro can thin them or limb them up a bit in a way that won't do major damage.

4-You can keep the moss.  I think it's beautiful, but I completely understand that a lot of people do not.

Unfortunately, if you want good grass, those three (four if you keep the moss) are the only real choices.

NOW..  if you have shade, I don't know what kind of trees they are, and that does make a difference.  Some trees cast heavier shade than other trees.

So let's talk about it.  Tell me more or show me your landscapes and let's come up with  good solutions for those of you who have a moss problem. Once you have a plan, I can certainly tell you how to kill moss.

I will help in any way I can, and others here will help too.

Most of the stuff I've heard is about the WSP...which is gone now from what I understand.  I doubt that makes any difference (the delivery system, I mean).  Guessing they get a better margin on the liquid than on the WSP, which is probably why they killed WSP.   (I don't do granular chems except in landscape beds so I'm useless for that delivery method too.)


I know a lot of folks who use Specticle, but I have ZERO experience...cuz I walk the cool season path.  

Bermuda is the enemy.

@SWIRE did you end up doing anything to your lawn?

I mean, the provista is supposed to be glyphosate resistant, which means you SHOULD be able to spray those weedy grasses without harming your turf, then overseed with provista bluegrass seed.

I didn't mean to drop the ball on this.  Rough last year and I dropped the ball on a good many things, unfortunately.

OKay...so some thoughts about this. (I number to keep myself on track and keep myself from rambling eternally with diarrhea of the keyboard.   Sometimes it works.  Other times--like here...well...sorry...)

1-Oaks and poplar are not the heavy shade like maples, so that's good news.

2-How big a lawn spot do you have, that is not in significant shade?

3-How much of a problem IS the moss? What percentage of your lawn is moss vs turf?  Is most of the moss under those trees at the edges?  Or spread through your whole lawn?

4-What has been your turf care routine/approach up to this point?  

5-What do you WANT from your yard?  Gorgeous turf where you can get it? Or just an average okay yard?  Will you install beds in some areas that won't grow grass? Fill me in on your mindset about "your lawn and you."

6-What other trees are in your yard, and how much sun, overall, can your grass get in a good day?

7-How much effort will you put into your lawn?  Do you have a spreader?  A sprayer?  Will you get one or both?  Assuming you have not used a sprayer much, will you learn to use it properly (this takes an hour of your time and a few gallons of water on a nice day, but some folks don't have this available and I get that)?   I ask this because my recommendations will vary based on your answers, and people are very different in what they want to do in their lawns.

In the MEANTIME:


CHICKWEED--Let's talk about that.- Chickweed is what we call a "winter annual."  It is an annual plant--it germinates from seed, comes up, does its thing, makes more seeds, and dies--all in one season.  In the future, you will want to stop that from coming up by applying a pre-emergent herbicide in the fall (assuming you are not seeding your lawn in the fall).  Application in the fall of a pre-emergent will prevent almost all of the chickweed from germinating.  This is the BEST way to address winter weeds (and most other weeds) because it keeps them from coming up in the first place, and puts less chems out into the environment, takes less effort, and costs less money.

Chickweed is a broadleaf weed and it WOULD be easy to kill except it's got a bit of a waxy coating, and you need a chem that can get through that.

It will die on its own as soon as the weather heats up. But you may not want to wait that long, and I get that.  Shading grass while it's trying to wake up is not good for the grass, so if you want to take on your lawn, improve it and have it beautiful, you can kill the chickweed easily.

You need a weed control  that contains something like 2, 4-D AND a kicker (or two) to get through that waxy coating on the chickweed.  But 2,4-D alone won't do it, usually.

AND..you need one that works in cool weather and won't hurt your cool-season grass.

I recommend either 4 Speed XT or SpeedZone.   These are labeled for chickweed, and will take care of a lot of other common weeds you are likely to face in your lawn.

4 Speed XT is my favorite. It's a premium chemical, but you're only buying a quart of it. It goes a long way.  But it's almost $60.  Nufarm does not make a bad product that I'm aware of.  

Speedzone is less money --about $40.   I don't hear as many wonderful things about it, but it's still a very good product.

Both of these are chems that pros use.  You can get them too, and you need to READ THE LABEL.

These are concentrates and you cannot just dump in a few glugs.  You have to read and measure your water and your chemical properly.   You have to practice a little with plain water on your driveway so you know how much your sprayer is putting out for how fast you walk.  It's not rocket science, but it is important.   When you are using really good chemicals, you are not using something that is idiot proof for anybody who picks it up off the shelf at Lowe's or Home Depot.

It's not hard. I don't know your experience level, but anybody can do it with a bit of attention, and I know you can do a good job.  


No matter the chemical you use, if you don't use it correctly you can a-injure your grass and b-totally fail at killing the weeds.

Read the label.

Wear long sleeves, long pants, shoes with socks.  WEAR EYE protection and nitrile gloves while you are mixing and spraying.  Keep your kids and your pets off the grass til the spray dries.  

This is just common sense, and applies to anything, including soap sprays and anything that is not plain water.

It takes five minutes.  Do it.

As always, if there is anything confusing on a label, ask here (good for everybody) or IM me (totally okay.)


Now then....respond with thoughts, "OMG that's too expensive" or whatever hits you when you read through this book.  If it's too expensive, we can take another approach.  These are my FIRST recommendations.

FYI:

I spoke to a buddy who sods AND seeds ProVista bluegrass.  He says if you are overseeding an existing lawn, it's fine. But if you are seeding from scratch, he wouldn't do it.  It takes SO LONG to come in....longer than regular bluegrass.  The full three weeks or more to get germination.

And that's going to lose you a LOT of seed.  

So if you're doing sod, that's great.  But if you are seeding a large area, he does not recommend it.

I'll ask him next time we connect.  He's in northern Indiana, so it may be different there, but I'll find out what the cost is in his region at least.

You guys are getting no break at all out there.  

Interesting.

Dig a slice of it with a shovel. Pull it out so you can replace it without doing damage.  Take a photo of the soil structure.   What I'm after is something like this...so I can see what the soil looks like at 1-6" deep.  (I'm assuming you do not have a soil probe, because why would you.--so shovel is fine.)






Also, have you had a soil sample done?

(If you said this, I apologize.  I've been dealing with a bug and my brain has been medicated. (what there is left of my brain, anyway).)

Yeah, that's getting out of control there, dude.

@savage1971

I hate to say it, but Prodiamine is cheap.   Put some more down.  

Yeah, I don't see it letting up for you.

When you get the chance, throw it down.

Oh no.



How bad is it?