I did a "Run and Gun" yesterday with a private security company. These guys are some serious shooters. If they drove any faster, time would slow down. 85-95mph in a Ford F-350 4X4 crew cab 10 feet off the bumper of the truck in front.

Most of the weapons used were M4 variants. Some 7" and 10" barrels also. Most are buying Bushmaster and Fulton Armory parts. Personnel preference I guess. Sights were EOTECHs and C-Mores. A few open sights. Accordfing to one shooter, the red dot type optics allows thenm to shoot with their off hand and not have to shift their sitting position to shoot out the windows. Just put the dot on the target and fire. Magazines were stashed everywhere in the truck.

They have been having failure to feed problems with some of the after market butt stocks. I'm going to swap their springs for current issue springs and see if that helps. The light buffers might also be the problem.

One guy told me he has been in more firefights in the last 6 months than his entire 12 years in Special Forces.

The guys were more than happy with them. Fast on target and cheaper than Eotechs. Battery life could be better was the only complaint.

Por bastards! Must be a shitty company to work for that makes you use a C-More.

I still remember the owner of C-More showing a friend of mine at an IPSC match how to wedge a toothpick in the control knob so the sight would stay on.

Quoted: I did a "Run and Gun" yesterday with a private security company. These guys are some serious shooters. If they drove any faster, time would slow down. 85-95mph in a Ford F-350 4X4 crew cab 10 feet off the bumper of the truck in front. Most of the weapons used were M4 variants. Some 7" and 10" barrels also. Most are buying Bushmaster and Fulton Armory parts. Personnel preference I guess. Sights were EOTECHs and C-Mores. A few open sights. Accordfing to one shooter, the red dot type optics allows thenm to shoot with their off hand and not have to shift their sitting position to shoot out the windows. Just put the dot on the target and fire. Magazines were stashed everywhere in the truck. They have been having failure to feed problems with some of the after market butt stocks. I'm going to swap their springs for current issue springs and see if that helps. The light buffers might also be the problem. One guy told me he has been in more firefights in the last 6 months than his entire 12 years in Special Forces.

Wow, Fulton Armory!  Wait a minute, didn't you warn them that their barrels are not chrome lined?!  The horror!!  I like those guys, didn't think people would buy them for Iraq.  I am definatly going to get that upper from them.

Good to hear from ya, Tango! Stay safe, and kick ass!

Their guns are M16s or M4s purchased with an "End user Certificate" through the State Department. I asked the head of the security team. Friends in high places.

The guys with M16s are converting them to M4s with their own money.  The C-mores are personally owned. The company did not issue optics at all. They just got M4s last month. The guys who arrived last year were issued AKs. They aquired some M16s from someone in Bagdad.

The pistol of choice is the 1911 followed by the M9. The last guy that had a Browning, shot himself in the leg while loading it right at our front gate.

I'm going to post a picture soon with my kit. I'll tell you what works and what don't based on my experiences.

Right now we are getting ready for next week. It should be interesting to say the least.

Quoted: Quoted: I did a "Run and Gun" yesterday with a private security company. These guys are some serious shooters. If they drove any faster, time would slow down. 85-95mph in a Ford F-350 4X4 crew cab 10 feet off the bumper of the truck in front. Most of the weapons used were M4 variants. Some 7" and 10" barrels also. Most are buying Bushmaster and Fulton Armory parts. Personnel preference I guess. Sights were EOTECHs and C-Mores. A few open sights. Accordfing to one shooter, the red dot type optics allows thenm to shoot with their off hand and not have to shift their sitting position to shoot out the windows. Just put the dot on the target and fire. Magazines were stashed everywhere in the truck. They have been having failure to feed problems with some of the after market butt stocks. I'm going to swap their springs for current issue springs and see if that helps. The light buffers might also be the problem. One guy told me he has been in more firefights in the last 6 months than his entire 12 years in Special Forces. Wow, Fulton Armory!  Wait a minute, didn't you warn them that their barrels are not chrome lined?!  The horror!!  I like those guys, didn't think people would buy them for Iraq.  I am definatly going to get that upper from them.

the barrel I bought from Fulton is chrome lined (bore and chamber)

KBR (Kellogg, Brown, and Root) security are not allowed to carry firearms at all. What the F*CK. And they wonder why they are hurting for security personnel.

Quoted: KBR (Kellogg, Brown, and Root) security are not allowed to carry firearms at all. What the F*CK. And they wonder why they are hurting for security personnel.

Out-fvcking-standing!! Their probably too friggin' cheap to spend the extra $$ on weapons. Afterall, it's only poor-ass truck drivers and maintenance personnel that they have over there. Lord knows the corporate pukes don't give a shit about them. Makes me sick...

No mention of Aimpoints, eh.  Why not?  Did they say anything adverse about Aimpoint or do they just not have any?

It is outstanding to know what these guys are using in the field! I imagine if any of it were junk, it would not stay in use for long.




OTOH some of this stuff on the civilian side is going to be like the guy with a Ford Pinto running Quaker State because Jeff Gordon does

Run into any Dyn Corp guys?  What do think/hear about them?

Quoted: KBR (Kellogg, Brown, and Root) security are not allowed to carry firearms at all. What the F*CK. And they wonder why they are hurting for security personnel.

WOW!  Even some mall ninjas sometimes are armed.  That's horrible that they wouldn't arm the REAL security specialists that are in such a hostile environment.  What are they supposed to use, harsh language???

Quoted: Quoted: KBR (Kellogg, Brown, and Root) security are not allowed to carry firearms at all. What the F*CK. And they wonder why they are hurting for security personnel. Maybe a dumb question? How do they secure anything without  firearms

airsoft

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: KBR (Kellogg, Brown, and Root) security are not allowed to carry firearms at all. What the F*CK. And they wonder why they are hurting for security personnel. Maybe a dumb question? How do they secure anything without  firearms airsoft

quite a coolection he has there... fake bayos and all?

Quoted: Por bastards! Must be a shitty company to work for that makes you use a C-More. I still remember the owner of C-More showing a friend of mine at an IPSC match how to wedge a toothpick in the control knob so the sight would stay on.

Who gives a shit about IPSC or any other shooting game where the targets don't shoot first?  If the gear works for them, that is all that matters.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: KBR (Kellogg, Brown, and Root) security are not allowed to carry firearms at all. What the F*CK. And they wonder why they are hurting for security personnel. Maybe a dumb question? How do they secure anything without  firearms airsoft groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UAChApkYv*FoAA32Jm63Cv08JEruXEze0G!Vvm5AXj!!lK2zR0uWyJ4SC7W9iRZBXoYp3r0Mz3dqQe4NNp4fByhe4CC1ICB0hAuGp9wrIuZKQ0gxy0m2A3SCKR8AcCkf/super%20stock%20pile.JPG?dc=4675430721599011876

That is the silly bastard from the "My Friend Is Gving Me An M16" thread.  What a loser.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: KBR (Kellogg, Brown, and Root) security are not allowed to carry firearms at all. What the F*CK. And they wonder why they are hurting for security personnel. Maybe a dumb question? How do they secure anything without  firearms airsoft groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UAChApkYv*FoAA32Jm63Cv08JEruXEze0G!Vvm5AXj!!lK2zR0uWyJ4SC7W9iRZBXoYp3r0Mz3dqQe4NNp4fByhe4CC1ICB0hAuGp9wrIuZKQ0gxy0m2A3SCKR8AcCkf/super%20stock%20pile.JPG?dc=4675430721599011876

     

What a fag...........
Run and gun is pretty much all you can do when you cant rely on fulltime military help.  On hardtops it is best to haul ass as fast and safely as you can.

What knives do you see used a lot over there, in the Wild Wild West? What brand fixed blades, and folders?

Quoted: What knives do you see used a lot over there, in the Wild Wild WestMid-East? What brand fixed blades, and folders?

------------------



Stay safe over there man, and remember, those of us stateside love all the updates you can provide.

Quoted: Quoted: Por bastards! Must be a shitty company to work for that makes you use a C-More. I still remember the owner of C-More showing a friend of mine at an IPSC match how to wedge a toothpick in the control knob so the sight would stay on. Who gives a shit about IPSC or any other shooting game where the targets don't shoot first?  If the gear works for them, that is all that matters.

If the shit fails in a "game" what are the chances it will work in a real fight?

Just because they're using C-mores doesn't mean they don't suck.  

ew "guy feet"

No mention of Aimpoints, eh. Why not? Did they say anything adverse about Aimpoint or do they just not have any?

Just didn't see any with the civilians. They had no comments.

Run into any Dyn Corp guys? What do think/hear about them?

I deal with these guys almost daily. They hire locals for security details. They drive around with their AKs off safe and their fingers on the trigger. DynCorp personnel in my AO have been shot up by other security guys for failing to respond to instructions when approaching other security guys. They've been hit hard with IEDs lately. They lost 11 vehicles in 3 months and at least 15 local guys and 4 americans.

They don't have a good reputation with the other security teams but every team talks bad about the other teams. The former special forces and ranger guys they hire are OK. It's the local idiots and the ex cops they hire that scare me. They got hit with an IED about a week ago on the way to Bagdad and 2 vehicles stopped in the kill zone. Another security team had to rescue them. The other team capped 4 bad guys.

Maybe a dumb question? How do they secure anything without firearms

They rely on us for security. They put on their little blue vest and their little blue helmets and smile as they go down the road. Pigs to slaughter. They loose guys almost daily across the country.

What knives do you see used a lot over there, in the Wild Wild West? What brand fixed blades, and folders?

I see a lot of Cold Steel knives. Folders are Clipits or one of the M16 line of folders.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Por bastards! Must be a shitty company to work for that makes you use a C-More. I still remember the owner of C-More showing a friend of mine at an IPSC match how to wedge a toothpick in the control knob so the sight would stay on. Who gives a shit about IPSC or any other shooting game where the targets don't shoot first?  If the gear works for them, that is all that matters. If the shit fails in a "game" what are the chances it will work in a real fight?

I understand your comment, but I am tired of people with no real world experience talking about what they have done in their classes, or shooting sports, and acting like it is the same thing.  I guess I could have been more specific.

Quoted: I understand your comment, but I am tired of people with no real world experience talking about what they have done in their classes, or shooting sports, and acting like it is the same thing.  I guess I could have been more specific.

...and this one time...at the range...

And this one time at the range a "SPECIAL FORCES TEAM" could not out shoot 5 B class IPSC shooters.........These were trained combat expereicned men.......

Now what do you think would happen in the real world if you trained them there 5 B class IPSC shooters in the art of CQB and gave them 1 hour of real combat?????? My money says that would be one bad ass real world team.

Don't knock the civilian shooters to bad, many of the proven techniques used in combat come from civilians.hinking.gif

Quoted: And this one time at the range a "SPECIAL FORCES TEAM" could not out shoot 5 B class IPSC shooters.........These were trained combat expereicned men....... Now what do you think would happen in the real world if you trained them there 5 B class IPSC shooters in the art of CQB and gave them 1 hour of real combat?????? My money says that would be one bad ass real world team. Don't knock the civilian shooters to bad, many of the proven techniques used in combat come from civilians.

You would probably find that the IPSC shooters would be too busy being shot at and taking cover, and moving, and point shooting that they wouldn't have time to use their IPSC skills.

Does IPSC have a stage where you shoot a moving target from a moving vehicle, then stop get out and shoot another moving target that is shooting back at you, from 2 or 3 directions at once?

Quoted: And this one time at the range a "SPECIAL FORCES TEAM" could not out shoot 5 B class IPSC shooters.........These were trained combat expereicned men.......

You're joking, right?

Evidently you haven't been around many SF in your time, or you wouldn't have made a comment like this.

I just got off the phone with another instructor who happens to be a GM IPSC shooter.  We both laughed about this topic because it is such a joke.  People playing combat isn't anywhere close to the real thing.

To make it fair, I would be interested in knowing from anyone who wants to make comments about them shooting better than SF (or any other military team) when the last time was that they were shot at.  

If they can't do that, they should be able to at least give the last time they lead a real world patrol expecting hostile contact......

No takers from the gamers?  How about a easy gimmee.  When was the last time you searched a building expecting to have to shoot someone.....



My bad for derailing the topic, even though I think it still relates a little.

The IPSC guys would RULE in real life!! They would put so many rounds on target it would make your head spin.

- However -

You and the "enemy" would have to agree on these rules:

- Enemy does not fire back, so running around like Rambo without hiding behind cover is OK
- IPSC guys will use ARs chambered in reduced power .380ACP (recoil bad, recoil bad!)
- Enemy is not allowed to take cover, in fact they must stand still, upright (menacing look on face is OK)

Quoted: I just got off the phone with another instructor who happens to be a GM IPSC shooter.  We both laughed about this topic because it is such a joke.  People playing combat isn't anywhere close to the real thing. To make it fair, I would be interested in knowing from anyone who wants to make comments about them shooting better than SF (or any other military team) when the last time was that they were shot at.   .

I knew that comment would rile some hairs.....

Stickman, your IPSC GM buddie took the time and effort to make GM. If those skills were useless why bother?

Face it folks if you can't shoot, your just lucky the guy shooting at you can't shoot either.

Two warriors, both of same caliber however one is a shooter. Who would you want to go busting doors down with, or do some clearings with.

There are plenty of "real world warriors" who are also devoted USPSA/IPSC shooters.  You'll find that they (people Phil Strader, Ron Avery, etc.) credit their IPSC shooting with most of their SHOOTING AND GUN HANDLING SKILLS.

Fighting with a gun includes other skills, but if all else is equal, the best shooter is going to win.  It's a no brainer.  If someone can shoot you in vital areas of your body before you can do the same to him, you're going to lose.  Being able to present your weapon and put rounds accurately on the threat is a good thing and that's something you can develop nicely by shooting any of the practical shooting games.  I don't understand why people think that IPSC shooting somehow makes you less qualified to shoot.  It makes no sense.

Many of the Special Forces detachments train with people like Rob Leatham, Mike Voigt, Todd Jarrett, & Jerry Barnhart.  Some of the Delta guys were in Arizona training with Leatham and Voigt in both pistol and CQB shooting of their long guns.  A buddy of mine (former photo editor of the now defunct GunGames magazine) got to watch a lot of it, but I don't think they let him take pictures.  The point is that many of the people who are held as exemplars of being a warrior (on places like here) have a LOT OF RESPECT for elite IPSC shooters and understand they can learn from them and improve their own survival skills.

You can learn good shooting skills from IPSC folks, but they don't know jack shit about TACTICS.

I laugh every time I see an IPSC match. Any two way range with more than one person shooting at them at a time and they'd whack one guy "real quick" before they got smoked from three different directions.

IPSC IS A FUCKING GAME.

Of course SF guys will run it slower. Know why? They trying to kill the other guy while NOT GETTING FUCKING SHOT. I'd love to see some IPSC go hand-to-hand with a SF after his space pistol jams, too ....

Your ego is so inflated it's a joke. If they are such ultra-ninja-commandos, why aren't they over there kicking ass for the world?

Reality check, homeboy.

----


TC - be safe, brother. I'm curious to see your gear setup.

Doc

My Guard unit went to Utah a couple of years ago for the Olympics.  

One day they announce that a unit needs opfor people, we will be shooting at each other with simuntion rounds, it will be fun.  I had the day off so I volunteer.

Well, the guy who picks us up is wearing a green beret.  We are going to "fight" a squad from the 5th Special Forces Group.  

8 of us NAtional Guard guys are pitted against 6 SF guys.  Now we have some disadvantages.  Because of the cold, the M4 simuntion upper won't operate very well, it needs to be used a lot to warm up so we are stuck with M9 Berettas.  The SF guys have M4s, Sig pistols, and armor (we don't)
The only advantages we had was we were in the house, they were clearing it, we had more guys and the squad didn't know we were in the house (they thought they were doing a walk thru with no one there) so we have the surprise.

Anyways, the whole point of the story was the SF guys ruled.  They took all 8 of us out, and we killed one of them, wounded another (I got the kill, managed to hit him in the neck at the same time his two buddies were hosing me)   Those guys are very good!  The only places we got shot were two in the chest, one in the head.  One guy got us as he was swinging into the second story window on the end of a rope (he had repelled down the side of the building)
I've seen IPSC guys do their thing before, and I admit a lot of them are a lot better than I am at IPSC, but the SF guys would mop them up.

I have also been in combat in Iraq, and training is all good until the RPG round zips over the hood of the vehicle you're in.  The rocket engine left a mark on the top of our hood where it had passed over.    Then you just spraying with the SAW and laying down grenades with the MK-19.  At 50 mph, and especially at night, you just put a shit load of rounds downrange in the direction you think they are firing from.  

An ISPC guy may out shoot some high-speed in a match, but in a tactical environment chances are the same ISPC guy would be tits up in the wood line due to lack of fitness, knowledge, and motivation.

While shooting is important, it is not the only consideration in the military.


Cheers

Rino,

My point exactly.

The rest of ya yahoos who got so riled up ain't got a clue. If you noticed when I first posted, some of you were knocking IPSC and all shooting games.

My post was to point out that SF does'nt mean you can shoot. Of course, fighting is different than shooting. That is why I also stated if you take 5 "B" class IPSC shooters and train them in the art of combat ....They would be kick ass. But some of you must have read past that. By the way that story is true, The drills we tested on where not run and gun stuff, instead we tested basis gunhandling skills and short stages testing shooting and reaction skills.

I also was pointing out that you should not knock the civilian to hard. But I should have known that, those doing the knocking are really wannabes anyway. I know lots of punks from the inner city who have been shot at or shot. Getting shot at don't qualify you for nothing except once a target.

I also stated that many of the proven  shooting skills come from civilians and being used by the military. So be nice.

I guess I caused the IPSC bashing by mentioning the C-More/toothpick at the Desert Classic. What IPSC guys have is speed, what they lack is tactics. Rob Leatham teaches a bunch of the varsity teams how to shoot. What he doesn't teach them is tactics. Two different things.

Man, how did this go from "Run and Gun" observations and IC equipment to IPSC bashing?

TC
Good Question. Now here is a subject I think I can comment on (the derailed portion of this very informative thread) being an IPSC shooter AND  an active duty US Marine who has been "over there" twice ( Desert Shield / Storm and just recently for the Invasion of Iraq OIF1) I will say this. MOST (read97%) of competitors who shoot in IPSC do not consider themselves super commandos or tacticians by any stretch of the imagination. Most are older (read retired) guys who have a bit of time and money on their hands and want to do something fun. As such they get out on the weekend and bust a lot of caps. So with good weapons and a bit of practice, they get to be pretty good shots. Quick to. A good B class shooter can generally get his pistol out of his holster and put a shot on target in about one second or so. When is the last time any of “ya’all” timed yourself for that? More importantly home many of you out there in internet land know how to properly draw a pistol from a holster with out running the muzzle across your none shooting hand as you draw? Anyway IPSC will teach you good skill at arms. IDPA will give you a bit more insight into tactics but as much as the IDPA guys will gnash their teeth at this next statement It is a shooting GAME as well .
Now as for a skill at arms learned in the service and I mean all FIVE of them. Unless you are something like SF you just don not get the trigger time to get really proficient with your issue weapon. And even SF guys skills vary widely. I have seen a whole team of green beenies come down from Brag to shoot a three gun match with tricked out M4s that they said mirrored their "work guns" and just sucked at competing. Things like a Failure to extract that an IA drill should have been applied instantly wasn’t. Instead it was a great deal of fumbling and cursing.
I am sure they were/are capable operators but that day I wasn’t impressed. I have also watched active duty Marines come out and shoot their first match and under pressure of nothing more than a timer and a bunch of people watching and COMPLETELY blow a stage by (and I am not kidding) stop and raise their hand because their weapon jammed... What that shows is when under pressure "you go with what you know..."
So will shooting IPSC turn you into a super solider capable of any feat? NO. But here is an interesting fact. The Force Recon Instructors for the Marine Corps who teach shoot packages at SOTG routinely go to IPSC shooting schools taught by the likes of Jerry Barnhart.
Also I will say this. I have learned more about shooting from IPSC competition than I EVER have in the Marine Corps. Oh yeah I have been a coach and competed at the Division level.
I love this theoretical “an IPSC shooter would fail in combat because… crap. People fail in combat for any number of reasons. Some people freeze up and some don’t. It could be a simple as “it’s you time to go” or your just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Until you have someone actually shooting at you, you don’t know how your going to react.  Hell the first time you see someone badly wounded (which is much more unnerving) than the realization that your life is actually being threatened freaks most people out.
There is a retired Navy Chief (now a civilian contractor that actually came with my unit to Iraq) that I shoot IPSC with that I would rather have with me in combat than just about any body I know on active duty. To put it into perspective my roommate is at second force and his skill at arms is way better than most and he can’t hold a candle to the retired Chief.
OK thread back to it’s original course.
TC I have a couple of questions for ya. How are most units over there dealing with individuals modifying their own weapons? My unit is going back over in January and we will not be issued A4s. I was thinking of bringing enough parts to do my own M4 conversion. Maybe even a 10.5 from Wes. Also are Off the wall batteries like CR 123 and aimpoint batteries available at all or is it strictly bring your own?
Well Keep you head down over there suck up some more tax free dollars and come home to spend em. If you need anything let me know and I will see what I can do. Keep up the reports as well and keep you eyes peeled after the first of July.

IPSC_GUY (Shaking his head) sends

Semper Fi

This thread hijack SUCKS! Let's hear more stuff from the sandbox.